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Online Fraud: Drop Shipped LEGO, etc. (eBay, Amazon Marketplace, Bricklink, etc.)

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  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
    ^^ Lol everything that Amazon seller is offering is without a doubt stolen.
    i thought so, the sad thing is until a sale goes thru and the seller uses a stolen card to order the goods, there really isn't any rules against listing things that they don't have on hand

    guess nothing can be done about this other than to avoid this type of seller when shopping online, sucks for those who are not aware of this and getting involved in this type of identity theft activities
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aag/main?ie=UTF8&asin=B003A2JCR2&isAmazonFulfilled=0&tag=noref-20&isCBA=&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&seller=A1IV3OOM9TI4TD

    back on the subject, what do you guys think about this seller? no feedback, new seller with the usual suspects (train sets, $100+ sets only)

    but here is the tell tale part for me, the seller says "Limit of 2 per customer/household. We do not ship to forwarder address and business address. Brand New, Factory Sealed"

    correct me if i am wrong.
    Dropshipper using stolen credit cards, without any doubt...
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    ^ BTW, some may say it isn't Amazon's problem, since at the end of the day, it isn't "their stuff" or "their money", but in truth it is...

    If too many people buy from these sellers from Amazon, then people will begin to not trust Amazon.

    Amazon could solve the problem as far as their site goes by requiring positive ID on anyone selling these sorts of items. Copies of a driver's license, social security card or passport, billing records for the address the payments go to, etc.

    Basically make it easy for the cops to find you if you're pulling a scam like this. Amazon must have a criminal investigation unit, you could probably put together a number of similar cases and bring them to the FBI all at the same time, give it a dollar amount large enough to get them interested.
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
    ^i have sold things on amazon in the past (not as a professional, that one cost 39.99 a month for business sellers)

    as a casual seller, they do ask for 2 things, one credit card and one bank account, so there is some sort of paper trail

    I am guessing these scammer are foreign based they are not using domestic bank accounts which are easier to track
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    ^ If you don't have a US based bank account, you can't get paid on Amazon.com, they won't pay you any other way other than a US bank account.

    What I'm suggesting is that for professional sellers selling more than a few personal items, people paying the $40 a month and who have hundreds of items for sale, should have ID verification so they can't have more than one seller account and be positively identified in the event of a criminal act like this.
  • AFFOL_Shellz_BellzAFFOL_Shellz_Bellz Member Posts: 1,263
    Having to prove identity is no guarantee, it's way to easy to buy fake identification cards and even fake ss cards. Finger prints would work better!
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    SSN can be verified with the IRS, part of being a professional seller now is that you must provide your tax ID info to Amazon if you do over 50 transactions a year, and they do check this against the IRS database.

    I would change this to, "if you list more than 50 items for sale, you must provide the info"

    You're right, it isn't foolproof, but it is a good start.
  • JP3804JP3804 Member Posts: 332
    I am not a professional seller on Amazon. I have been selling for about 30 months. I had to supply my tax info before the first of this year to keep my account open.
    The email stated that anyone selling 20 or more items had to supply it.
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    edited June 2012
    Well, I purchased a new Quinjet set (6869) on Amazon for $59. I knew the price was good, but only a little better than what Amazon had been offering ($63) recently. The seller isn't brand new, has 20 or so feedback, and was listed as shipping from Florida.

    I just checked the tracking information, and where is it shipping from? Olive Branch, MS. And what's the reference number? A Lego order number starting with Y.

    Suggestions? I purchase from the Lego website pretty often, and don't want to get blacklisted or anything (if this guy was using bogus credit card info). Do I contact Lego?
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    ^ I would refuse the shipment when it arrives and complain directly to Amazon Customer Service, you might also consider e-mailing the seller to let them know you're on to the scam.

    I would forward the order info to [email protected] and call Lego [email protected] and let them know you're a victim of credit card fraud and that you will be refusing the shipment, if they can, they actually will reverse the shipment with FedEx and you'll never see it.
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    I searched the order number on the website, and the last name isn't linked to mine - would it be?

    Also, I can't guarantee that I will be here tomorrow when FedEx drops it off either.

    My main concern is getting my money back if this is indeed a scam (which it certainly smells like).

    I just sent the seller an email asking for clarification, and I will also be giving Lego a call tomorrow regardless of his answer.
  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    ^ The last name on the order could be the last name of the person whose credit card was used to purchase your set (i.e. the victim whose credit card was stolen).
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
    let me guess, when you check your order details on lego website, the price paid was more than what you had paid to the seller?
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    let me guess, when you check your order details on lego website, the price paid was more than what you had paid to the seller?
    I don't have the last name of the person who is attached the order, but of course the amount would have to be more than what I paid based on the actual set price and the expedited shipping cost.

    I contacted the seller questioning his drop shipping process and the legality of it, and here's his reply:
    Hello, sure it is legal as I use this paid drop-ship membership long time ago, and I never have any issues with legality for more than 200 Lego orders with them. Usually, the item will be shipped from China, where the price of Lego is much cheaper than US (It is sure authentic), but if it is shipped directly from Lego, it should be a fast shipment from them due to the lack of inventory. However, if you feel not safe, you can just give me a refund request and I will provide a full refund for you, as they also provide a 14 days refund policy if my customers on Amazon are not happy with the item. So I get nothing to lose, and you too.

    Regards!.
    So, I've replied requesting his return address, to see if it matches the Lego order (which I'm sure it won't - if he even provides it).
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    let me guess, when you check your order details on lego website, the price paid was more than what you had paid to the seller?
    Even more so, since the seller has to pay Amazon 15% plus a variable fee based on the weight of the item, plus had to pay Lego shipping, and maybe tax as well.
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
    once you get the package, on the invoice you will see the bill to name
    i forgot if i track it with my name or with the one on the invoice after receiving the package, but if you see an amount higher than what you had paid, i would bet it is a fraudulent transaction
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    Thanks for the help and the input - I will give Lego a call when the package arrives and hopefully they will be able to tell me if something is amiss.
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    edited June 2012
    Here's his profile:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aag/main?ie=UTF8&isAmazonFulfilled=0&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&isCBA=&asin=&seller=APFW3BO8W10OR

    There was nothing suspicious in his feedback unfortunately (which I checked before buying!).
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    They are getting smarter, not listing everything with a single seller...
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    ^ And that form letter response is a little better than what we've previously seen...
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    ^ And that form letter response is a little better than what we've previously seen...
    Yes, it is a polished turd rather than a rough one... :)

    Still a load of "you know what"...
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    After asking about who I would return the package to, here is my response:
    You just return to the address which is on the reverse side of the packing slip.Please let me know if you decide to return it, so I will forward the request to my drop-ship supplier, and they will deal the rest with Lego.

    Regards!
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    After asking about who I would return the package to, here is my response:
    You just return to the address which is on the reverse side of the packing slip.Please let me know if you decide to return it, so I will forward the request to my drop-ship supplier, and they will deal the rest with Lego.

    Regards!
    Seriously? Stop talking to the criminal, please...

    Contact Amazon, contact Lego, let them know, and don't bother with the idiot who is playing you for a fool.

    Just my two cents. :)
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    edited June 2012
    Ease up LFT, there's nothing wrong with me asking this guy questions. I was curious as to how he would answer, and his responses have been very enlightening. ;)

    Believe me, I have no doubt this guy is scamming.

    I spoke with Lego today and they are looking into it. I will contact Amazon after I hear back from Lego.
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
    ^I contacted amazon immediately once i suspect the seller of running a scam, i went on amazon chat and let them know i have reported to lego about this as well and let them deal with it, than i ask for a transcript and emailed it to lego
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    I went ahead and got Amazon involved - they are going to refund my money and take action against the seller.

    Oddly enough, the person's Amazon name and location matched from the Lego invoice. Not sure how third party Chinese drop shipping works, but that part did strike me odd.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    Ease up LFT, there's nothing wrong with me asking this guy questions. I was curious as to how he would answer, and his responses have been very enlightening. ;)
    I think I'm having a bad day in general, I'm finding I'm being short with everyone today for some reason.

    Grr...

    Perhaps I need to go build some Lego. :)

    I apologize for my rudeness, off to get a cup of coffee. :)
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    What got me into Lego as an adult was the stress release.. Building is very relaxing. And satisfying when it's finished.
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50

    Oddly enough, the person's Amazon name and location matched from the Lego invoice. Not sure how third party Chinese drop shipping works, but that part did strike me odd.
    I can tell you from experience when i travel to China (hong kong, shanghai, beijing) the lego selection are generally more expensive than the US

    also to ship a box this size all the way here, doesn't sound too practical, sounds like the seller was hoping to confuse you enough so a regular person might drop the issue and let it go

    where did you see your seller's location? as it was not shown on their seller info from the link you provided

    instead, you might want to ask why the packing invoice shows a higher price than what you had paid for (you can see the price on the lego website), I'd be interested to see what their answer will be

    for what it is worth, I don't expect the scammer to give you any useful information, but just want to know to what extend they will try to justify themselves and whatever info you get you can give it to lego and amazon (i did)
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    Ease up LFT, there's nothing wrong with me asking this guy questions. I was curious as to how he would answer, and his responses have been very enlightening. ;)
    I think I'm having a bad day in general, I'm finding I'm being short with everyone today for some reason.

    Grr...

    Perhaps I need to go build some Lego. :)

    I apologize for my rudeness, off to get a cup of coffee. :)
    No worries!


    where did you see your seller's location? as it was not shown on their seller info from the link you provided

    I asked the Amazon customer service to confirm for me while we were chatting.
  • faefrostfaefrost Member Posts: 7
    ^i have sold things on amazon in the past (not as a professional, that one cost 39.99 a month for business sellers)

    as a casual seller, they do ask for 2 things, one credit card and one bank account, so there is some sort of paper trail

    I am guessing these scammer are foreign based they are not using domestic bank accounts which are easier to track
    Here's the problem, and why it is very hard for Amazon to crack down on this. Normally that cc and US bank account is sufficient ID, and is a perfect paper trail. The problem is Amazon is not really in the loop regarding the fraud. Unless you the end purchaser files a complaint or a charge back with Amazon, they will never ever know about it. As far as they know your order was fulfilled and you package arrived. They never touch the stolen merchandise, they don't get a fraudulent cc report from VISA. That all is between the seller and [email protected] or Walmart or whoever. Amazon has no idea those transactions have occurred unless or until the purchaser alerts them. Lego really can't even do this as they typically cannot match the [email protected] order to an Amazon or Bricklink transaction. It's really insidious. Amazon isn't being willfully ignorant. There honestly and truly is no way for them to know this is or will happen until a report is filed. They could have a drivers license and a blood sample on file with the merchant, it wouldn't make any difference. They cannot detect this on their end.

    This is a huge reason why branding that Amazon Marketplace and so interlinking it with their core business was an idiotic idea. It places them in the middle of things like this.
  • BanditBandit Member Posts: 889
    What they *could* do if they were so inclined is immediately shut down all the stores selling obviously stolen goods, the second they list a set for a price under a threshold value. No one selling current sets at 10% off is legitimate.

    Oh, but then they'd lose their 15%... ;)
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    Does Amazon have bids like EBay? I've never even looked at Amazon's site.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    Does Amazon have bids like EBay? I've never even looked at Amazon's site.
    Then you're the one! The one person left who isn't shopping at Amazon! :)

    *said tongue in cheek*

    :)
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
    Does Amazon have bids like EBay? I've never even looked at Amazon's site.
    only buy it now, no bidding nonsense hence why i got tricked into buying a "hot deal" thinking i was paying less than retail

    oh well
  • faefrostfaefrost Member Posts: 7
    What they *could* do if they were so inclined is immediately shut down all the stores selling obviously stolen goods, the second they list a set for a price under a threshold value. No one selling current sets at 10% off is legitimate.

    Oh, but then they'd lose their 15%... ;)
    The problem is that has far more legal risk and repercussions for Amazon then they are understandably willing to take on. It opens them up to civil lawsuits for denying one merchant vs another in an arbitrary way, or simply on a false suspicion of wrongdoing. If they set a pricing threshold as you suggest then they face Federal Charges of price fixing or anti competitive behavior. They really can't do much until they have a complaint.

  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    What TLG could do, perhaps with Amazon's help, is to search for suspicious listings that are probably fraud and then preemptively purchase the sets from these sellers. Next, TLG could watch their own [email protected] orders to see if the dropship scam goes through. Upon matching their preemptive buy with the [email protected] purchase, it could contact the billed party to establish a fraudulent purchase. If confirmed, it then could go after the fraudsters. Furthermore, it could do all this in a relatively fast time frame because it wouldn't be waiting for reporting to go through, but rather going after suspicious merchants.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    ^ way too much labor involved, too costly.

    Best thing TLG could do is beef up the security process around differing buy to/ship to addresses.
  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    ^ Actually, most of it could be done algorithmically. Find suspicious sellers algorithmically by comparing price points. Have a bot make purchases. Match the orders using a query. Really, only the phone call and prosecution would need to be handled by a person. However, I realize the initial investment to set the system up would probably be too much. I never said it was a cost-effective approach, but it would work.
  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    ^^ Oh and the cost effectiveness of closer scrutiny of buy to/ship to addresses is probably hampered by the volume of gift purchases made. I'm sure there is a large percentage of legitimate purchases that are gifts with an address mismatch.
  • sidersddsidersdd USAMember Posts: 2,432
    According to this post on Bricklink, Lego.com will no longer ship to third parties:
    http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=642270
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    ^ If what you say is true, this is a very big deal. I don't know of any online retailer that won't allow me to send gifts to 3rd parties. Heck, I did this a ton with Amazon over the Holidays...
  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    ^ I'd wager that if indeed they stopped shipping to third parties, they will resume closer to the holidays.
  • ZonZon Member Posts: 213
    edited June 2012
    Here's an update - Amazon has refunded my money. I have called and spoken to someone at Lego on 3 different occasions, and have been told each time that the billing department is still working on it, and that I should hear back from them within 24 hours.

    The last call I made was yesterday, and they told me I should hear from them today (which I didn't). Interesting note about the conversation though, the customer service rep said that the billing department was in a meeting at the moment discussing it (!).

    All I am waiting for is a return label (which Lego said they will provide) so I can return the set I was drop shipped.

    Why the delay I wonder?

    In reference to the above Bricklink post, I can't help but wonder if my case wasn't the straw on the camel's back?
  • 260madison260madison Member Posts: 50
    they just need to be more careful verifying the info before processing the order when sending shipment other than the billing address

    when things seems fishy, merchants can technically have the bank verify the transaction, beats having people who at involved in scams to have to waste time sorting things out for them
  • jdylakjdylak Member Posts: 281
    Ok, I am new here and after reading threads came to this one. I just bought a set off ebay. My issue I have not seen here so I thought I'd throw this out here as, after reading this thread, don't know how they did this. I received my set, which the tracking number showed came from "Olive Branch, MS". After opening, the BILL TO has my coworkers name on it. Now, how that worked is when I checked out thru ebay, I put my coworkers name as the shipping address. I don't like things sitting out at my house as FedEx just leaves them, unlike UPS. So I used his address to ship to. Thing is I actually paid for it. How can he have his name as the BILL TO when he didn't pay? He has no charge on his credit card for the purchase, I did. If anything if it was legit, it should have MY name on it. How did the ebay person get the name to bill to as my coworker? I assume it's still a scam as the price was $20 cheaper than the bill says. I'm confused because all I read here is the billing name will be some way out there person but it says my coworkers name, which isn't even possible.
  • snowtygersnowtyger Member Posts: 47
    jdylak, would you be willing to post a photo of it, or send it as a private message? I can probably look at it, and tell you what may have happened.
  • jdylakjdylak Member Posts: 281
    jdylak, would you be willing to post a photo of it, or send it as a private message? I can probably look at it, and tell you what may have happened.
    The invoice? It has my coworkers name in the Bill To and the Ship To parts. Thing is, I bought it and had it sent to my coworkers house as he is home during day. I just don't understand how it could say Bill To him when it was my credit card.

  • LegobrandonCPLegobrandonCP CanadaMember Posts: 1,917
    @jdylak Well my order invoices from [email protected] says "Bill to Brandon ____" when I used my father's credit card.
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