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42113 launch in trouble

2

Comments

  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    If they wanted to do military, I would imagine the next step is to do maybe WW2 style tanks but without putting the logos of arms companies on their boxes.

    Mynatt said:
    How would a licensing deal between LEGO and Boeing work in a situation like this? Does LEGO have to compensate Boeing for the loss of royalties?

    I don't expect to know the actual contract between the two companies but is there a way companies deal with situations and relationships like this?
    It will depend on what was in the contract. I doubt the royalties will be much compared to either company's budgets. However, it may make other companies more wary of doing Lego deals in future. Lego come out of it saying we are good, they are bad. They've done it with Shell, now Boeing and Bell.
    iwybsLordmoralMynattFizyx
  • BrickchapBrickchap AustraliaMember Posts: 371
    I agree that its political correctness ruining everything as usual. The osprey is a transport vehicle anyway and its clearly rescue.

    Think of the amount of Chinooks we get from lego, not to mention the obviously militarised police trucks in sets like that sky police one with the crooks VTOL helicopter thing and the truck in the recent set with the bank, crooks bulldozer and helicopter (sorry I forget the names).

    I cant believe the ridiculousness of all this, a lego helicopter that is clearly defined as non military and even when the real thing is used by militarys is not an attack vehicle anyway is somehow causing black people in the US to get shot??

    I do wish people these days would just have the guts to attack the actual problem, American police in this case, instead of abusing people for the most obscure things that have nothing whatsoever to do with the problem.

    Its a very similar situation to when the cowards at Greenpeace made that video of lego drowning in oil, whinging about Lego making petrol trucks and stations in Lego City instead of taking their concerns to Shell. 

    Last time I checked a man called Adolf Hitler designed the Volkswagen Beetle, which Lego has made, while Henry Ford was a public supporter of the Nazis, along with his biggest customers/fans of the Ford Model T being the gangsters Bonnie and Clyde. There have been lots of Ford vehicles from Lego.

    Heres a thought, ISIS terrorists love Toyota Hilux utes, does that mean we should ban all utes in City sets?

    Oh and if Lego truly cares about human rights, maybe they should stop grovelling before China so much?


    LordmoralBosstone100
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    Brickchap said:

    I cant believe the ridiculousness of all this, a lego helicopter that is clearly defined as non military and even when the real thing is used by militarys is not an attack vehicle anyway is somehow causing black people in the US to get shot??


    I think you are confusing two issues here.

    As to the V-22, a big part of the problem is LEGO featuring the logos of the two companies on the box. After all, lego have done virtually the same helicopter in the past at a smaller scale:

    I cannot remember any complaints then. 
    Lordmoral
  • bpk2300bpk2300 Florida Member Posts: 162
    I think this might have been a test. Maybe TLG wants to change their "no military subjects" policy, so they put out the Osprey to see what the reaction is.
    In that vein, I think TLG should go all in with their new 18+ strategy and have separate polices for those sets.
    LordmoralBrickchapsklamb
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    bpk2300 said:
    I think this might have been a test. Maybe TLG wants to change their "no military subjects" policy, so they put out the Osprey to see what the reaction is.
    In that vein, I think TLG should go all in with their new 18+ strategy and have separate polices for those sets.
    So maybe a buildable Michelle Pfeiffer for on top of the piano?

    bpk2300LordmoralFizyxAstrobricksdaewoo
  • LordmoralLordmoral Puerto RicoMember Posts: 767
    I think this might have been a test. Maybe TLG wants to change their "no military subjects" policy, so they put out the Osprey to see what the reaction is.
    And found that there is a market for them.
  • 560Heliport560Heliport Twin Cities, MN, USAMember Posts: 2,279
    LEGO has made numerous tilt-rotor aircraft, but only #42113 was labelled "V-22 Osprey". 
    FizyxLordmoral
  • BooTheMightyHamsterBooTheMightyHamster Northern edge of London, just before the dragons...Member Posts: 1,390
    John Lewis have posted set details but are saying 'It's out of stock'.  I've already started pestering our buyers in case the sets are sitting in our distribution centre.

    It'd be daft to send them all back...
    NickF22KungFuKennyLordmoral
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    ^ You might want to get your web team to update the information about LEGO too.

    Under "brand information" on the Osprey page it states ... 

    The only area that the company has never tackled directly is military-themed sets, because Ole Kirk set a policy that they must never make war seem like child’s play.

    Oops

    The largest ever LEGO set to date is a scale-model of the Taj Mahal, which was made out of 5922 pieces.

    Oops

    LordmoralAstrobricks
  • BrickchapBrickchap AustraliaMember Posts: 371
    @mr_benn The Hitler - Lego VW Beetle example was purposefully chosen so I dont appreciate you taking the mickey out of it.

    Black Lives Matter was a good cause that as usual was taken over by political correctness, taking the 'fight' to insignificant false 'threats' such as The Lego Group rather then the US police force and/or government.

    The BBC show Fawlty Towers had one of its most famous episodes pulled simply because there is one mention of the n word by the character of a silly old army major, whom a normal audience could clearly understand is the butt of the joke himself being out of touch and obviously racist.

    Ironically, if the famous part of the episode and namesake interaction with The Germans is taken politically correct literally, then its basically saying all Germans are Nazis. However, that episode was voted the most hilarious BY GERMAN PEOPLE, who obviously have the non-PC brains to understand that the audience is supposed to laugh at Fawlty's obnoxious xenophobia and bluntness and make fun of the "We won the war and you didnt" attitude that some Englishmen still had in the 1970s.

    Now there would be people here who would prefer to keep politics and political correctness out of discussions and just talk Lego, I too would like that however PC exists and barges its way into everything. You no longer have to talk religion or politics to make people 'offended' and find yourself dragged over the coals simply for having an opinion or stating a FACT.

    A Lego helicopter of all things 'offends' people... Jesus Mary and Joseph LOL hopefully someone else here thinks that is the most ridiculous notion!

    Lordmoral
  • Speedman29Speedman29 UKMember Posts: 1,901
    edited July 2020
    Brickchap said: The BBC show Fawlty Towers had one of its most famous episodes pulled simply because there is one mention of the n word by the character of a silly old army major, whom a normal audience could clearly understand is the butt of the joke himself being out of touch and obviously racist. 
    I hate to rain on your rant, but no it wasn't. The episode was taken down while the streaming service added a comment "Contains some offensive racist language of the time and upsetting scenes" Streaming services are constantly doing this, the Daily Mail only reports on the ones that it knows will get its readers frothing at the mouth!
    Mr_CrossShibFizyxRedbullgivesuwindRogerKirk
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    Brickchap said:

    A Lego helicopter of all things 'offends' people... Jesus Mary and Joseph LOL hopefully someone else here thinks that is the most ridiculous notion!

    The group protesting where not against LEGO producing a helicopter. There are loads of helicopters produced over the years and they don't complain about them. What they were complaining about was that LEGO claim they do not do modern military subjects as they think war is not child's play, but that they had produced a helicopter only used by the US military and also put the logos of the arms companies that manufacture this helicopter right on the box. That is, they were promoting Bell and Boeing to children. It is similar to putting the Playboy logo on children's clothes at the same time as saying you don't think children should be sexualised. 
    560HeliportstluxdrdavewatfordFizyxsklambMr_CrossmadforLEGO
  • CalvCalv Central EnglandMember Posts: 894
    Bricklink have removed all reference to #42113 from their site. We now have the strange situation where a set was released and on sale in certain places (Argos yesterday, for instance) yet is unable to be listed or parted-out on Bricklink. 
    BumblepantsKungFuKennyLordmoral
  • BumblepantsBumblepants DFWMember Posts: 6,763
    It is getting more and more tempting to just move over to Brickowl completely with nonsense like this.
    560HeliportM_BossMr_CrossdatsunrobbieLordmoral
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 10,001
    CCC said:
    Brickchap said:

    I cant believe the ridiculousness of all this, a lego helicopter that is clearly defined as non military and even when the real thing is used by militarys is not an attack vehicle anyway is somehow causing black people in the US to get shot??


    I think you are confusing two issues here.

    As to the V-22, a big part of the problem is LEGO featuring the logos of the two companies on the box. After all, lego have done virtually the same helicopter in the past at a smaller scale:

    I cannot remember any complaints then. 

    They also did this one for the forestry line #60021 Cargo Heliplane. No complaints then either.

    It is getting more and more tempting to just move over to Brickowl completely with nonsense like this.

    Soooo, because of an overreaction you will commit an overreaction?
    It is what it is: LEGO made a set where they put Boeing's name on the box. Now, I cannot recall if they did this with the Dreamliner set as well, but sometimes groups spring up after a precedent was set but could not protest this then.. I dunno, I just think that LEGO was not doing anything malicious (or trying to somehow push military agendas into children's hands-I mean Star Wars Batman and Marvel do that far more than a rescue Osprey) and that there apparently are people with too much time on their hands. "But, but, but, Boeing is on the box.." Well yeah, they make the darn thing after all. What a lot of crap it is.. Why? So they are saying if Boeing does not have their name on the item they would then 'allow' it? . I mean if you are going to protest, or boycott, a company for doing business with another large company that also happens to have a branch that make items for combat, or to support combat vehicles or operations, I have a feeling there would be a lot of things that you could not buy anymore (yes even from toy companies).
    I guess these people then would become Amish if they were to actually stop buying anything in any way possibly related to a manufacturer that also supplies parts or services for anything related to combat weapons or logistics,as that would be the only way one could live with such high morals.

    Lordmoral
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    I understand that Lego won't allow it to be sold at bricklink, as it means they also make money from sales of it there and they cannot be seen to be doing that. Yet the historical sets have remained, so Lego make money when Shell sets are sold, plus of course they allow Red Indians with bright red faces there. I know past is past, but Lego makes money each time one is sold. I wonder if the Osprey will be added to BL once it all does down, or whether they will have knowingly incomplete catalogue.
    FizyxLordmoral
  • BumblepantsBumblepants DFWMember Posts: 6,763


    It is getting more and more tempting to just move over to Brickowl completely with nonsense like this.

    Soooo, because of an overreaction you will commit an overreaction?
    It is what it is: LEGO made a set where they put Boeing's name on the box. Now, I cannot recall if they did this with the Dreamliner set as well, but sometimes groups spring up after a precedent was set but could not protest this then.. I dunno, I just think that LEGO was not doing anything malicious (or trying to somehow push military agendas into children's hands-I mean Star Wars Batman and Marvel do that far more than a rescue Osprey) and that there apparently are people with too much time on their hands. "But, but, but, Boeing is on the box.." Well yeah, they make the darn thing after all. What a lot of crap it is.. Why? So they are saying if Boeing does not have their name on the item they would then 'allow' it? . I mean if you are going to protest, or boycott, a company for doing business with another large company that also happens to have a branch that make items for combat, or to support combat vehicles or operations, I have a feeling there would be a lot of things that you could not buy anymore (yes even from toy companies).
    I guess these people then would become Amish if they were to actually stop buying anything in any way possibly related to a manufacturer that also supplies parts or services for anything related to combat weapons or logistics,as that would be the only way one could live with such high morals.

    Maybe an overreaction, it just annoys me that it won't be selling everything that exists and the catalog of parts/sets will be deliberately incomplete. I preferred Bricklink as independent is all.
    andhedrdavewatford560HeliportLordmoralKungFuKennyM_Boss
  • panchox1panchox1 The Outer RimMember Posts: 551
    Brickchap said:
    Last time I checked a man called Adolf Hitler designed the Volkswagen Beetle

    @mr_benn The Hitler - Lego VW Beetle example was purposefully chosen so I dont appreciate you taking the mickey out of it. 

    Hitler did not design the VW Beetle. It was developed by a Team lead by Ferdinand Porsche. Erwin Komenda developed the prototype of the body. The design was inspired by (stolen from?) the work of Engineer Josef Ganz.

    I've never heard that Hitler was ever a design engineer in the automotive industry. But I suppose he could have been. Though, since the Beetle was German engineered, he did refer to it as the people's car.

    This isn't meant to be a jab but I was curious if you were just mistaken or purposefully incorrect. I assume it was the first one.  

    KungFuKenny
  • LordmoralLordmoral Puerto RicoMember Posts: 767
    There is a Petition on Change.org of this bird, Brickset owners are saying they never got a review copy in the first place with the other Technic builds as did other reviewers, it seems that the company was looking for an excuse to axe a product and found one, the review is to bring it back but if they do I expect they place this bird in the 18+ section:
    https://www.change.org/p/lego-fans-urge-the-lego-group-tlg-to-release-the-lego-technic-set-42113-bell-boeing-v-22-osprey
  • FizyxFizyx ColoradoMember Posts: 1,082
    edited July 2020
    This got posted on the front page, but figured it should go here too:

    Short run down:  There may be a major design flaw in the mechanism for the build, one that by itself could likely warrant at least a major delay in the release time frame of these set.  Who knows what the implications of the licensing deal may have been though. (Maybe potentially this design flaw wasn't enough to stop the release due to the licensing deal, but the internal policy violation was?) 

    Anyways, the thick plottens.

    Edit to include the picture from the reddit thread just to throw some more starch into the sauce:


    andheKungFuKennyM_BossLordmoralCyberdragon
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 10,001
    Oh, so like the actual Osprey it is rife with mechanical issues?
    KungFuKennyFizyxLordmoralBumblepantsCyberdragon
  • FizyxFizyx ColoradoMember Posts: 1,082
    Oh, so like the actual Osprey it is rife with mechanical issues?

    Most accurate LEGO model of all time?! POSSIBLY!
    Lordmoral560HeliportBumblepantsRogerKirk
  • daewoodaewoo DFWMember Posts: 504
    Strictly speaking, neither Bell nor Boeing are "arms" companies.  Both offer a significant number of products in the civilian market.  Yes, they have arms divisions, but attempts to malign them as "arms dealers" are dishonest.
    panchox1Lordmoral
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Hertfordshire, UKAdministrator Posts: 6,603
    daewoo said:
    Strictly speaking, neither Bell nor Boeing are "arms" companies.  Both offer a significant number of products in the civilian market.  Yes, they have arms divisions, but attempts to malign them as "arms dealers" are dishonest.
    More than 25% of Boeing's earnings are arms-related. I'd say that makes them an arms company.... ;-)
    KungFuKennyAyliffeFizyx
  • KungFuKennyKungFuKenny Deep in the Heart of TexasMember Posts: 1,748
    daewoo said:
    Strictly speaking, neither Bell nor Boeing are "arms" companies.  Both offer a significant number of products in the civilian market.  Yes, they have arms divisions, but attempts to malign them as "arms dealers" are dishonest.
    I understand your point - Boeing makes most of their money from civilian aircraft - but they are the second largest arms manufacturer in the world...

    AyliffeFizyxstluxLordmoral
  • blokey9blokey9 MelbourneMember Posts: 139
    panchox1 said:
    Brickchap said:
    Last time I checked a man called Adolf Hitler designed the Volkswagen Beetle

    @mr_benn The Hitler - Lego VW Beetle example was purposefully chosen so I dont appreciate you taking the mickey out of it. 

    Hitler did not design the VW Beetle. It was developed by a Team lead by Ferdinand Porsche. Erwin Komenda developed the prototype of the body. The design was inspired by (stolen from?) the work of Engineer Josef Ganz.

    I've never heard that Hitler was ever a design engineer in the automotive industry. But I suppose he could have been. Though, since the Beetle was German engineered, he did refer to it as the people's car.

    This isn't meant to be a jab but I was curious if you were just mistaken or purposefully incorrect. I assume it was the first one.  

    Hitler commissioned/ordered/forced Porsche to build the Beetle.

    BrickchapLordmoral
  • blokey9blokey9 MelbourneMember Posts: 139
    sorry, that should have been design not build.
    Brickchap
  • BumblepantsBumblepants DFWMember Posts: 6,763
    Apparently the protest happened anyway. One dude in a camo outfit with a minifig hat with a sign raising awareness of his website and hashtag outside a Lego Store in Germany.
    560HeliportLordmoral
  • klintonklinton CanadaMember Posts: 1,189
    Apparently the protest happened anyway. One dude in a camo outfit with a minifig hat with a sign raising awareness of his website and hashtag outside a Lego Store in Germany.
    Dude clearly didn't get the memo. Of all the days to decide to take a social media break...
    560HeliportiwybsLordmoral
  • LordmoralLordmoral Puerto RicoMember Posts: 767
    daewoo said:
    Strictly speaking, neither Bell nor Boeing are "arms" companies.  Both offer a significant number of products in the civilian market.  Yes, they have arms divisions, but attempts to malign them as "arms dealers" are dishonest.
    More than 25% of Boeing's earnings are arms-related. I'd say that makes them an arms company.... ;-)
    I hope that he at least had a mask on.
  • daewoodaewoo DFWMember Posts: 504
    edited July 2020
    I was going to quote someone but this forum software is twitchy. Suffice to say that Boeing does produce "arms", but not exclusively. We can argue scale and scope all day, but believe what you will. Regardless, Lego was idiotic, either because they can't enforce their own ridiculous policy or for having it in the first place. The fact that people MOC modern military vehicles using Lego products proves that there is a market.
    Lordmoral
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    Fizyx said:



    That is really nice, it would be great if you could reliably deform those cogs to the same angle each time, that might be a useful (mal)function.
    Lordmoral
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,815
    Huw said:
    Yep, the gearbox is fu??ed. Mine did the same within 30 minutes of testing. It was not cancelled because of some pressure group, it was cancelled because it's fundamentally flawed. 

    My review goes live at 5pm today.

    Thanks Huw.  It's not unheard of that a set gets released, only to find it needs a service pack to fix, usually because of several hours of fatigue, but in this instance it only took someone 30 minutes to discover the problem.  And it appears to be a common complaint by everyone that's built and used it.

    I think it was evident to most that the excuse of a pressure group wasn't going to wash, but how on Earth does it get this far before the design flaw is found?.
    Mr_CrossFizyxLordmoral560Heliport
  • LordmoralLordmoral Puerto RicoMember Posts: 767
    Huw said:
    Yep, the gearbox is fu??ed. Mine did the same within 30 minutes of testing. It was not cancelled because of some pressure group, it was cancelled because it's fundamentally flawed. 

    My review goes live at 5pm today.
    OMG, I am humbled by Huw himself in my blog on the Brickset Forum. It seems that LEGO should have come forward to us and be honest about thw cancellation of the set rather than laying all the blame on a group that has valid concerns even if I don't share their same values.
  • benbacardibenbacardi EnglandMember Posts: 688
    Legoboy said:

    how on Earth does it get this far before the design flaw is found?.
    You could say the same about Wall•E's neck - that couldn't hold his head up at all and was immediately obvious. 
    Lordmoral
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    If they ever come clean, they'll blame it on coronavirus. Designers didn't have enough parts including new components at home to completely test it, so in this case a malfunction (that affects only a very small number of people*) slipped past them.

    * because only a small number of people have it.
    Lordmoral
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,815
    Legoboy said:

    how on Earth does it get this far before the design flaw is found?.
    You could say the same about Wall•E's neck - that couldn't hold his head up at all and was immediately obvious. 
    Absolutely, although it could also be argued here that on the basis the design flaw is churning up parts, it’s causing a safety concern.  That might force them to switch gears as abruptly as they did.  It’s all very odd.
    560HeliportLordmoral
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,815
    Legoboy said:
    Legoboy said:

    how on Earth does it get this far before the design flaw is found?.
    You could say the same about Wall•E's neck - that couldn't hold his head up at all and was immediately obvious. 
    Absolutely, although it could also be argued here that on the basis the design flaw is churning up parts, it’s causing a safety concern.  That might force them to switch gears as abruptly as they did.  It’s all very odd.

    Actually, scrap that.  I would like to think had there been a safety concern, they wouldn’t have allowed the sets that did escape the factory to be sold.
    Lordmoral
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    Maybe they thought that the few that got into the wild would be so valuable and nobody would be stupid enough to actually open and build it and discover the fault.
    Lordmoral
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie West Haven , CTMember Posts: 1,637
    Legoboy said:
    Legoboy said:

    how on Earth does it get this far before the design flaw is found?.
    You could say the same about Wall•E's neck - that couldn't hold his head up at all and was immediately obvious. 
    Absolutely, although it could also be argued here that on the basis the design flaw is churning up parts, it’s causing a safety concern.  That might force them to switch gears as abruptly as they did.  It’s all very odd.
    If they had switched gears (or added a few) they could have fixed the mechanical problem with the set. :-)
    KungFuKenny560HeliportFizyxAstrobricksLordmoral
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,815
    ^ Absolutely, but now that they've blamed the decision to withdraw on the pressure group, they've sort of closed every possible door they had to reintroduce it with a fix.

    I don't think we've yet guessed what the real reason for pulling it was.
    560HeliportFizyxLordmoral
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    Yes, they have probably also scuppered any possibility of doing similar deals in future and also shown that small pressure groups should protest against LEGO if they do anything remotely negative as they cave in easily and the pressure group will get great publicity, although the longer LEGO hold out the better.
    Lordmoral
  • LordmoralLordmoral Puerto RicoMember Posts: 767
    CCC said:
    Yes, they have probably also scuppered any possibility of doing similar deals in future and also shown that small pressure groups should protest against LEGO if they do anything remotely negative as they cave in easily and the pressure group will get great publicity, although the longer LEGO hold out the better.
    Didn't something similar happened with Jabba Palace? 
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,395
    No Jabbas palace was at the end of its lifetime at the time the press made a storm in teacup about it.
    BumblepantsLordmoralklinton
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,557
    edited August 2020
    Also with Shell - they still released the last of the sets after saying they would no longer partner with Shell. So finish the existing contract but no new one.

    Also with Daily Mail - they finished the existing deal but no new deal.

    Also with The Sun - they finished the existing deal but no new deal.

    In each case they came away looking like moral victors. They dumped the "bad" company and retained their good image.

    I think this is the first time they have done it cutting an active contract.


    Lordmoral
  • bricknationbricknation Member Posts: 711
    The set briefly appeared on smyths toys website after midnight available for click and collect only with a limit of 1 per person. It sold out within 5 minutes. Now people on reddit are reporting that stores are refusing to hand over the purchased sets. What a mess.
    Lordmoral
  • LordmoralLordmoral Puerto RicoMember Posts: 767
    Thanks for all your input, let's sesee what else keeps coming out of this drama.
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