Purchase from Lego.com arrived re-taped/box damage

daewoo · January 2020

datsunrobbie said:

daewoo said:

jnscoelho said:

You are effectively missing the point of the comparison.

No, an actual apples to apples comparison would be if the car came in a box, and that box got dented during transit, and now you want a discount off the price of the car (even though the car itself has no damage) because the box wasn't perfect. In the end the value is the product inside the box, not the box.

Not if you are buying the set as a speculative investment. Take a look at the Kenner Star Wars action figures made around 1978/79. I had most of them, and of course trashed the packaging immediately so I could play with them. Some of them have been sold for over $30,000 when kept in mint condition in the packaging. In another 50 years somebody might be willing to pay that much for a mint-in-the box #7591.

That in no way, form, or fashion negates the fact that the value is because of what is in the box. If you take a pristine, never used box, let's say the UCS MF, and you use official Lego tape to seal it closed, but there are no Lego inside the now closed box, there is little to no value. Sealing that same box the same way, but this time filled with the Lego that makes the set, and there is value, because of the Lego inside. The box is first and foremost a means to get the set from the producer to the consumer. Secondary to that is the identifying art on the box so 1) people can see what they are buying and 2) marketing for that set. In the end though it's a box.

jnscoelho · January 2020

daewoo said:

datsunrobbie said:

daewoo said:

jnscoelho said:

You are effectively missing the point of the comparison.

No, an actual apples to apples comparison would be if the car came in a box, and that box got dented during transit, and now you want a discount off the price of the car (even though the car itself has no damage) because the box wasn't perfect. In the end the value is the product inside the box, not the box.

Not if you are buying the set as a speculative investment. Take a look at the Kenner Star Wars action figures made around 1978/79. I had most of them, and of course trashed the packaging immediately so I could play with them. Some of them have been sold for over $30,000 when kept in mint condition in the packaging. In another 50 years somebody might be willing to pay that much for a mint-in-the box #7591.

That in no way, form, or fashion negates the fact that the value is because of what is in the box. If you take a pristine, never used box, let's say the UCS MF, and you use official Lego tape to seal it closed, but there are no Lego inside the now closed box, there is little to no value. Sealing that same box the same way, but this time filled with the Lego that makes the set, and there is value, because of the Lego inside. The box is first and foremost a means to get the set from the producer to the consumer. Secondary to that is the identifying art on the box so 1) people can see what they are buying and 2) marketing for that set. In the end though it's a box.

Which brings me back to my comparison (just for the fun of it and because I'm stubborn).
If you take a pristine, never used car, strip it of it contents and just be left with the car body, how much is it worth compared to the full car?
What's beneath the car body is the "LEGO", the body is just a means for you (and the "LEGO") to be protected while using it.
You have different car bodies to identify the models and brands, same way you have different artworks for different sets instead of a generic LEGO or any other brand label on a brown cardbox.
In the end, stripped of what's beneath it, it's just protective, recyclable material, be it the box or the body.
Of course it's not the same thing, I've said that already. But do you get the metaphor now? Or does the english language not have metaphors?

datsunrobbie · January 2020

daewoo said:

datsunrobbie said:

daewoo said:

jnscoelho said:

You are effectively missing the point of the comparison.

No, an actual apples to apples comparison would be if the car came in a box, and that box got dented during transit, and now you want a discount off the price of the car (even though the car itself has no damage) because the box wasn't perfect. In the end the value is the product inside the box, not the box.

Not if you are buying the set as a speculative investment. Take a look at the Kenner Star Wars action figures made around 1978/79. I had most of them, and of course trashed the packaging immediately so I could play with them. Some of them have been sold for over $30,000 when kept in mint condition in the packaging. In another 50 years somebody might be willing to pay that much for a mint-in-the box #7591.

That in no way, form, or fashion negates the fact that the value is because of what is in the box. If you take a pristine, never used box, let's say the UCS MF, and you use official Lego tape to seal it closed, but there are no Lego inside the now closed box, there is little to no value. Sealing that same box the same way, but this time filled with the Lego that makes the set, and there is value, because of the Lego inside. The box is first and foremost a means to get the set from the producer to the consumer. Secondary to that is the identifying art on the box so 1) people can see what they are buying and 2) marketing for that set. In the end though it's a box.

If the value is solely in the contents of the box, why do people pay more on the aftermarket for sealed sets than for sets that have been opened?

If somebody actually managed to acquire that never used UCS MF box and the correct Lego seals, there would be somebody who would buy it for a ridiculous amount of money simply because empty, correctly sealed boxes don't get out of the Lego factories. It would be similar to finding a Kenner Luke Skywalker figure packaged on the card for Darth Vader.

klinton · January 2020

datsunrobbie said:
If the value is solely in the contents of the box, why do people pay more on the aftermarket for sealed sets than for sets that have been opened?

The assumption that the contents are new and unused. It's about the integrity of the interior product.

daewoo · January 2020

But do you get the metaphor now? Or does the english language not have metaphors?

Yes, it has metaphors. Yours is just particularly ineffective.

Cymbeline · January 2020

For some reason I find myself humming that song from "Frozen" while reading this thread...

CCC · January 2020

klinton said:

datsunrobbie said:
If the value is solely in the contents of the box, why do people pay more on the aftermarket for sealed sets than for sets that have been opened?

The assumption that the contents are new and unused. It's about the integrity of the interior product.

A new set with the seals opened is also new and unused but is often worth less than a new set with the seals intact. And it is worth more than a new set complete with all the bags and instructions that has no box.

Cyberdragon · January 2020

CCC said:

klinton said:

datsunrobbie said:
If the value is solely in the contents of the box, why do people pay more on the aftermarket for sealed sets than for sets that have been opened?

The assumption that the contents are new and unused. It's about the integrity of the interior product.

A new set with the seals opened is also new and unused but is often worth less than a new set with the seals intact. And it is worth more than a new set complete with all the bags and instructions that has no box.

That's cause people are nuts. A resealed box with pristine unused contents, is pyhsically exactly the same as the box from the factory. The box...is not...sacred (the Lego is designed to be touched with human hands, it's not the Ark of the Covanent)! I wouldn't care either way buying NIB. Also the point stands that there are so many box collecters these days that keeping a box from the factory is pointless and actually devalues it by adding to them. So don't. And, if you get an old NIB set, OPEN IT (or gift it to someone who will), before you keep passing it down till it rots then nobody gets the unboxing experience.

datsunrobbie · January 2020

The monetary value of any item is determined by only two parties, the current owner and the prospective owner, and the current owner's valuation takes precedence because they own the item.

A #10179 changed hands for $3000 on 31 Oct 2019.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEGO-Star-Wars-Ultimate-Collectors-Millennium-Falcon-10179/303314085893?epid=70327387&hash=item469eeda805:g:jxEAAOSwudddh9NM

The only reason I can see that it sold for more 3 times the price of other similar items is the unopened packaging. I agree with @Cyberdragon that "That's cause people are nuts", but it does highlight the value of the packaging if you find a buyer that values the packaging.

SumoLego · January 2020

Cymbeline said:

For some reason I find myself humming that song from "Frozen" while reading this thread...

...what frozen things do in summer...

-insert meme of LEGO Stormtroopers with bats in close proximity to overturned LEGO horse-

datsunrobbie · January 2020

klinton said:

datsunrobbie said:
If the value is solely in the contents of the box, why do people pay more on the aftermarket for sealed sets than for sets that have been opened?

The assumption that the contents are new and unused. It's about the integrity of the interior product.

So the sealed box has value because a buyer assumes the content of the box is new and unused. Got it. :-)

Cyberdragon · January 2020

But that doesn't really matter if you buy from a reputable site and expect NIB (if advertised) even if it's been resealed you can get a refund if any of the contents are missing or tampered with, because that is what you payed for. If you buy from shadysales.com and get scammed with no recourse, it's on YOU the buyer for being there. Plus, if someone was going to pull a reseal scam, only the dumb scammers will make it obvious, most will peel the tape off and replace it with no visable damage (there are ways). But that doesn't mean all resealers are bad, some are legit just inspecting the contents (especially on a vintage set).

mak0137 · January 2020

Would a retailer accept damaged boxes from the manufacturer? For many not all Lego they buy is for playing and many of us, as mentioned before by others, want to have that option/decision of keeping/playing vs. gifting/selling not be forced by irresponsible handling during shipping.

Sets I buy for my kids are sometimes gifted/donated because they already have enough or pass the age/interest level. Similarly if the same set is available used in complete and good condition at a significant discount and I can get it then the new unopened set becomes expendible to be gifted or marked for selling at a future unknown date.

Hence I like presentable boxes however if some get damaged that's no big deal. In case if all are damaged in a shipment and especially were bought at full price than I want the retailer to know and fix it by replacing with new ones or offering a nominal discount.

CCC · January 2020

Cyberdragon said:

CCC said:

klinton said:

datsunrobbie said:
If the value is solely in the contents of the box, why do people pay more on the aftermarket for sealed sets than for sets that have been opened?

The assumption that the contents are new and unused. It's about the integrity of the interior product.

A new set with the seals opened is also new and unused but is often worth less than a new set with the seals intact. And it is worth more than a new set complete with all the bags and instructions that has no box.

That's cause people are nuts. A resealed box with pristine unused contents, is pyhsically exactly the same as the box from the factory.

It isn't physically the same, as one has been opened the other hasn't. The contents might be the same, but the box has been opened. And many people put a value on that. If there are two boxes on the shelf, one is perfect and one is opened, which one would most people take?

TheOriginalSimonB · January 2020

mak0137 said:

Would a retailer accept damaged boxes from the manufacturer?

When I worked in retail we received plenty of damaged boxes (all products, not just Lego). Most of these I am sure were from the transport or our warehouse but there were the occasional times when I would open a multi-pack outer box to find damage to one or more of the product boxes inside. We would return them to our warehouse, but I never got to hear if they went back to manufacturer then, or just out to a different branch with fewer scruples.

oldtodd33 · January 2020

Empty Lego boxes have no value. Right. He will most likely get $30.00 for it, that's the average price from my experience. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lego-Train-Creator-Emerald-Night-Box-ONLY-READ-10194-10219-10233-60098-60197/124025772397?hash=item1ce083196d:g:uagAAOSw8QleB3gn

oldtodd33 · January 2020

With box. https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEGO-10194-Creator-Emerald-Night-used-complete-with-box-/264542681643?epid=79898079&hash=item3d97f8fa2b%3Ag%3A8c4AAOSwhvpd2GlM&nma=true&si=8zLMqSMIrcxGqfnQEbjI84ZcHn8%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Without box. https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEGO-10194-Creator-Emerald-Night-Collector-Train-in-Excellent-Condition-Used-/264555799511?epid=79898079&hash=item3d98c123d7%3Ag%3AUwYAAOSwHwRd50tn&nma=true&si=8zLMqSMIrcxGqfnQEbjI84ZcHn8%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Enough said.

autolycus · January 2020

I agree the boxes have value, but there’s something very off with the two used sets. If the box is worth $30 by itself, how does it add >$200 in value to the used set? Seems like there’s a good arbitrage opportunity if that’s consistently the case.

CCC · January 2020

Part of it is down to first impressions. If a used set has its box, then it suggests that the owner cared for it and so will be in better condition than a used set without the box. Of course, it is an assumption, since someone could have bought the used box for $30 and added it to their uncared for set.

Aleydita · January 2020

People place value in all sorts of different things. It's not unreasonable that a product's packaging is in good condition when you purchase that product. Most retailers will discount a product when the packaging has been bashed about, and it's not because people are nuts it's because people expect new when they buy new, and a bashed up box suggests that somewhere along the line, someone has handled the product less than carefully.

BOBJACK_JACKBOB · January 2020

When I buy from the LEGO shop near me I dilligently check every box on the shelf for bashes, creases, tears or any other damage, then take the one in the worst condition. I do this as a consideration for people like @Lego_Star, who value box condition and for the store. I took a modular with a fist sized hole in it once. When the staff noticed they wanted to change it as they wouldn't sell a box in that condition. I took it anyway. The box was only going in the bin - it didn't matter to me.

I find it weird and amusing that people value the box condition, especially if they are going to open it anyway but different strokes for different folks!

If it is important to someone I would expect them to either go and physically check the item before purchase or ensure a guarantee of box perfection from a distance seller before buying. I have read of times where people have purchased sets in a sale with major discounting then returned and swapped it multiple times when the box has arrived bashed. I think this is ridiculus.

CCC · January 2020

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

If it is important to someone I would expect them to either go and physically check the item before purchase or ensure a guarantee of box perfection from a distance seller before buying.

With many online retailers that is not possible. While you can ask a BL store about the condition, ask amazon and they will probably just say it is a new product in a box if they reply at all.

If something has caused a fist sized hole by impacting on the side of the box then it could well have damaged the contents - the manual, the sticker sheet, the bricks inside. Some parts could have fallen out if the bags were small enough. I think if there was a significant hole, I'd want to check first especially if the store was a reasonable distance from home.

BOBJACK_JACKBOB · January 2020

CCC said:

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

If it is important to someone I would expect them to either go and physically check the item before purchase or ensure a guarantee of box perfection from a distance seller before buying.

With many online retailers that is not possible. While you can ask a BL store about the condition, ask amazon and they will probably just say it is a new product in a box if they reply at all.

If something has caused a fist sized hole by impacting on the side of the box then it could well have damaged the contents - the manual, the sticker sheet, the bricks inside. Some parts could have fallen out if the bags were small enough. I think if there was a significant hole, I'd want to check first especially if the store was a reasonable distance from home.

Both fair points but if the retailer can't guarantee then don't buy it. Or buy it and accept the risk of an imperfect box.

Regarding the box with a hole, this is hard to explain but looking at it I was reasonable confident that the contents were undamaged and complete and wholly confident that if there was an issue the shop would have sorted it. I didn't bother to open and check in the store and when I got home and opened it, it was fine. If it was anywhere other than my local (45mins away) LEGO shop, I would have been more cautious but I know them and they know me. There was a big element of trust involved. IIRC the manager on the day said as much when I bought it. They were probably happy that someone was OK with buying it. The damage was bad enough that they would have written it off otherwise.

CCC · January 2020

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

CCC said:

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

If it is important to someone I would expect them to either go and physically check the item before purchase or ensure a guarantee of box perfection from a distance seller before buying.

With many online retailers that is not possible. While you can ask a BL store about the condition, ask amazon and they will probably just say it is a new product in a box if they reply at all.

If something has caused a fist sized hole by impacting on the side of the box then it could well have damaged the contents - the manual, the sticker sheet, the bricks inside. Some parts could have fallen out if the bags were small enough. I think if there was a significant hole, I'd want to check first especially if the store was a reasonable distance from home.

Both fair points but if the retailer can't guarantee then don't buy it. Or buy it and accept the risk of an imperfect box.

Or turn it around, the retailer should only ship undamaged items and use adequate packaging that will protect them. Given consumer rights to return items anyway, you'd hope retailers would not ship damaged items. Scuffs to box edges and so on I think are acceptable. Crushed or punctured boxes are not. This suggests either that they are sending out damaged items or that they are not using adequate packaging.

BOBJACK_JACKBOB · January 2020

I was just checking the UK law on buying online and anyone has at least 7 days from delivery to decide against keeping the item (some items are different but this is what applies to LEGO). So fair enough, maybe I was a bit harsh before. If you buy from an online retailer and the box is damaged and that is important to you, you are perfectly within your rights to return it.

I admit I sometimes find it hard to see things from another perspective and will try not be annoyed when I see people complaining so much about box quality in the future! :)

MaffyD · January 2020

klinton said:

msanders said:

Lego is quite a premium product

MaffyD said:

Lego, as a premium product .

I think this is precisely where the disconnect between the two camps lies.
No matter how large the build is, I don't see a marked difference between Lego and, say, those LOL dolls @SumoLego loves to collect. It's still just a mass produced building block set, meant to be used as such. Premium Lego sets do exist - the tour sets come immediately to mind - but they're not the sort of thing you'd order through a mass retailer. Anything you're ordering off of Walmart, S@H, or Amazon is absolutely not a 'premium' item. It's just a toy.

Lego is a premium product. It is worth more both new and secondhand than comparable construction products from other toy manufacturers. That it is a toy means exactly nothing in this debate. The same "It's mass manufactured so it can't be premium" statement could apply to so many other premium brands it's absurd to even bring up (clothing, jewellery, perfume, accessories, cars, golf clubs, exercise equipment, audio/video products, computers and electrical goods - all of these have 'premium' examples made by companies with a focus on detail and quality, and yet are still mass produced). Of course it's just a toy. To think it's the same as anything else made of plastic and used by children is missing the point. And if anyone disagrees I have some Mega Bloks, Kre-o and Best Lock products to swap for your equivalent Lego products. I won't mind if the Lego isn't brand new.

klinton · January 2020

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

If you buy from an online retailer and the box is damaged and that is important to you, you are perfectly within your rights to return it.

We've more or less been in accord during this little debate, but I'm going to contest you on this one.
While being 'within your rights', it comes down to the basic morality of it. If you intend to open and build the set, then demanding a refund and/or replacement for damaged packaging is just silly. If the contents are damaged, fine. If there's a ding in the box, or a label affixed to it, but the contents are in order... then you're just being a bit of an ass. This is the entirety of my point in this discussion. I don't otherwise care what people choose to hoard in their "collections".
I, like yourself, am the guy who will actively purchase the item with the least attractive packaging as a small courtesy to local shoppes. Hell, I've purchased Marvel Legends figures where someone has removed the 'build-a-figure' part because I just wanted that character.

MaffyD said:
Lego is a premium product.

Agree to disagree? I don't consider anything that is manufactured in large quantities of identical units for mass consumption to be "premium". A premium product would require a limited production run and/or personalized execution. You are free to feel otherwise. /shrug

And this is really the last thing I have to say about any of this. I understand that I'm not going to stave off the absurd obsession with product packaging. This is a circular discourse with wildly differing points of view. This horse has been thoroughly flogged.

CCC · January 2020

klinton said:

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

If you buy from an online retailer and the box is damaged and that is important to you, you are perfectly within your rights to return it.

We've more or less been in accord during this little debate, but I'm going to contest you on this one.
While being 'within your rights', it comes down to the basic morality of it. If you intend to open and build the set, then demanding a refund and/or replacement for damaged packaging is just silly. If the contents are damaged, fine. If there's a ding in the box, or a label affixed to it, but the contents are in order... then you're just being a bit of an ass.

If you intend to open it, build it and throw away the box then I'd agree with you. However, if you want to open it, build it and keep the box in a reasonable used condition then I wouldn't. If you bought a new one, then the retailer should make sure that you get one that isn't damaged or risk a return.

jnscoelho · January 2020

@klinton
Just google it, you'll have several definitions, like:
- "“premium” products – defined in this case as those that cost at least 20% more than the average category price" (like LEGO)
- "Premium pricing (also called image pricing or prestige pricing) is the practice of keeping the price of one of the products or service artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers, based solely on the price." (like LEGO)
- "Premium brands on the other hand, are defined by their price-quality ratio – we feel that it is worth paying extra for a premium brand because of the product quality..." (like LEGO - an excuse often used by AFOLs, for example)
And I could go on and on...

MaffyD · January 2020

klinton said:

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

If you buy from an online retailer and the box is damaged and that is important to you, you are perfectly within your rights to return it.

We've more or less been in accord during this little debate, but I'm going to contest you on this one.
While being 'within your rights', it comes down to the basic morality of it. If you intend to open and build the set, then demanding a refund and/or replacement for damaged packaging is just silly. If the contents are damaged, fine. If there's a ding in the box, or a label affixed to it, but the contents are in order... then you're just being a bit of an ass. This is the entirety of my point in this discussion. I don't otherwise care what people choose to hoard in their "collections".
I, like yourself, am the guy who will actively purchase the item with the least attractive packaging as a small courtesy to local shoppes. Hell, I've purchased Marvel Legends figures where someone has removed the 'build-a-figure' part because I just wanted that character.

MaffyD said:
Lego is a premium product.

Agree to disagree? I don't consider anything that is manufactured in large quantities of identical units for mass consumption to be "premium". A premium product would require a limited production run and/or personalized execution. You are free to feel otherwise. /shrug

And this is really the last thing I have to say about any of this. I understand that I'm not going to stave off the absurd obsession with product packaging. This is a circular discourse with wildly differing points of view. This horse has been thoroughly flogged.

Hmm... I'm in a bit of a quandary right now. Mainly because I don't like banging on about a subject if I think my point has been made. That being said, when someone tells me they're happy for us to be at odds on a subject but then tells me my point of view is wrong immediately afterwards it makes me think that they don't want to agree.

This smacks of hypocrisy, and that they want to shut down a conversation because they don't have meaningful points but just a stubborn mentality that doesn't allow for others arguments.

Lego returns policy allows for a return if there is nothing wrong with the product at all. Returning because of a dent is not being an ass.

Finally, this is maybe only my 3rd post on the subject, if ANYONE is flogging the horse after its demise - it's not me. Someone needs to get off their soapbox, and preferably without making some kind of 'I'm done here, but here's my parting shot as I go' riposte whilst doing so.

Don't tell me I'm absurd or obsessed, don't tell others they are being an ass, and have a bit of self-awareness and consideration for others views. You don't care about boxes. We get it. I do care about the boxes. And that's fine.

CCC · January 2020

What I've learnt is that if any North American members sell/trade any new sets to kilinton, then they can send one with a badly damaged box and keep any better quality ones that other buyers will pay a premium for. :-)

klinton · January 2020

CCC said:

What I've learnt is that if any North American members sell/trade any new sets to kilinton, then they can send one with a badly damaged box and keep any better quality ones that other buyers will pay a premium for. :-)

Absolutely! I'll usually ask that they remove the box entirely, actually. If I'm buying a set, Ima build it. I'll usually prefer to buy a boxed set over a used set, mainly because I'm anal about decal application. The condition of the box itself is of absolutely no consequence.

All bets are off if I'm buying from UK peeps though! I expect only the finest, mint condition packaging from @CCC! :p

Blockwork_Orange · January 2020

If buying a set to that is going to be part of my main collection, then I look for the packaging to be in as nice a condition as possible. On the other hand, I do not mind buying damaged or opened packages from retailers either, especially if I'm looking for extra parts to fill out a model. In fact they will often mark down the price on the sets. It makes for a great way to get parts at a more reasonable price, sometimes 50% or more off :)

leo3344 · March 2020

Allowing return or refund of Lego is always a problem because Lego is not a well sealed product and as someone said above, many people don't open it immediately on day 1 of their purchases for many reasons we can imagine, like if you are a collector, like if you don't have time now to play it but want to get it first before it retires or deals end. A more serious problem is that quite so many Lego thieves out there stealing bricks and mini-figures and then return the set. Making sure the Lego set is complete and flawless is always the responsibility of a seller, never a customer. Any returned Lego set sold as new to another customer without serious investigating the content for completeness and authenticity is a very irresponsible act. However, Amazon or S@H or Walmart and now even Lego official store, as the OP suggested, look like they tend to turn a blind eye to the problem and choose only to handle the complaint case by case. It's fact, but it's sad. It's even ruining their business and reputation on the long run.

monkeyhanger · March 2020

If you can expect 10-20% off a set in a Lego store with a duffed up box, you should not be expecting an opened box if paying full price.

donutboy · March 2020

klinton said:
All bets are off if I'm buying from UK peeps though! I expect only the finest, mint condition packaging from @CCC! :p

Ahhhh hahahahahahaha, you said peeps.

klinton · March 2020

donutboy said:

klinton said:
All bets are off if I'm buying from UK peeps though! I expect only the finest, mint condition packaging from @CCC! :p

Ahhhh hahahahahahaha, you said peeps.

I'm 99.9% certain that CCC is indeed a questionable sugar coated marshmallow Easter treat...

CCC · March 2020

leo3344 said:

A more serious problem is that quite so many Lego thieves out there stealing bricks and mini-figures and then return the set. Making sure the Lego set is complete and flawless is always the responsibility of a seller, never a customer. Any returned Lego set sold as new to another customer without serious investigating the content for completeness and authenticity is a very irresponsible act. However, Amazon or S@H or Walmart and now even Lego official store, as the OP suggested, look like they tend to turn a blind eye to the problem and choose only to handle the complaint case by case. It's fact, but it's sad. It's even ruining their business and reputation on the long run.

These stores sell to consumers, and they expect consumers to open what they buy. If a customer wants to store a set for many years without opening it, then they should also check the condition of seals and so on. It is very difficult for a regular employee to know what to check for when accepting a return for every product the store sells. If the packaging looks sealed and unused then they will accept it. It is not worth them employing an expert for every product they sell to check over returns. If any slip through, then the new customer can always return it again - so long as they are a regular customer that opens what they buy.

leo3344 · March 2020

CCC said:

leo3344 said:

A more serious problem is that quite so many Lego thieves out there stealing bricks and mini-figures and then return the set. Making sure the Lego set is complete and flawless is always the responsibility of a seller, never a customer. Any returned Lego set sold as new to another customer without serious investigating the content for completeness and authenticity is a very irresponsible act. However, Amazon or S@H or Walmart and now even Lego official store, as the OP suggested, look like they tend to turn a blind eye to the problem and choose only to handle the complaint case by case. It's fact, but it's sad. It's even ruining their business and reputation on the long run.

These stores sell to consumers, and they expect consumers to open what they buy. If a customer wants to store a set for many years without opening it, then they should also check the condition of seals and so on. It is very difficult for a regular employee to know what to check for when accepting a return for every product the store sells. If the packaging looks sealed and unused then they will accept it. It is not worth them employing an expert for every product they sell to check over returns. If any slip through, then the new customer can always return it again - so long as they are a regular customer that opens what they buy.

What is today's world? It's 2020 It's a sophisticated computing and management world. How difficult for a regular employee to know what to check about the returned products when there is guideline for them that they can learn or just look at the computer about different products? If all products are handled the same, why return of some products e.g. underwear, food not allowed or just thrown away?

It was only you believe that those stores sell to customers and expect them to open immediately, it's not a widely accepted concept. It's common that many people buy a lot of food and drinks for the next few weeks or months because they need to drive a long way, do they open ALL of their food immediately after purchase?

Making sure the quality, safety, completeness, authenticity of the products is always the responsibility of the product or service provider. You buy a coke or hamburger in McDonald or KFC or any responsible chain store and you take it away out of their eyesight for even a second and you back telling them the food is nasty and you want a return or refund, their guideline to their staff is to throw away your food immediately no matter what, will they sell it to another customer?

In addition, sometimes there could be thousands of pieces for a Lego set, it's the customer's responsibility to check every single pieces to make sure that all pieces
are authentic and original? Do you take your fast food bought from McDonald for assay in laboratory after you buy it? If you get poisoning after you eat the food, can McDonald say it's your responsibility to check the safety of the food?

I have no comment about whether Lego set should be returned or not but if return is allowed, they should have a special team to investigate the returned product first before they can sell it as new and if they don't want to do that they can just sell it as used or disclose the information about the condition of the product as returned to the next customer. If they don't want to do this, return of Lego should never be allowed.

Trying to make up more excuses that sound more reasonable to argue with me next time

CCC · March 2020

leo3344 said:

What is today's world? It's 2020 It's a sophisticated computing and management world. How difficult for a regular employee to know what to check about the returned products when there is guideline for them that they can learn or just look at the computer about different products? If all products are handled the same, why return of some products e.g. underwear, food not allowed or just thrown away?

If it is quick and easy for an employee to do it, then it is also quick and easy for a customer to check things such as seals, box condition, and so on.

leo3344 said:

It was only you believe that those stores sell to customers and expect them to open immediately, it's not a widely accepted concept. It's common that many people buy a lot of food and drinks for the next few weeks or months because they need to drive a long way, do they open ALL of their food immediately after purchase?

Making sure the quality, safety, completeness, authenticity of the products is always the responsibility of the product or service provider. You buy a coke or hamburger in McDonald or KFC or any responsible chain store and you take it away out of their eyesight for even a second and you back telling them the food is nasty and you want a return or refund, their guideline to their staff is to throw away your food immediately no matter what, will they sell it to another customer?

In addition, sometimes there could be thousands of pieces for a Lego set, it's the customer's responsibility to check every single pieces to make sure that all pieces
are authentic and original? Do you take your fast food bought from McDonald for assay in laboratory after you buy it? If you get poisoning after you eat the food, can McDonald say it's your responsibility to check the safety of the food?

I have no comment about whether Lego set should be returned or not but if return is allowed, they should have a special team to investigate the returned product first before they can sell it as new and if they don't want to do that they can just sell it as used or disclose the information about the condition of the product as returned to the next customer. If they don't want to do this, return of Lego should never be allowed.

Trying to make up more excuses that sound more reasonable to argue with me next time

There is a difference between food and LEGO, especially food served in an open container such as fast food. I don't really understand why you are equating the two of them.

I think the best a store can do is check the box - are the seals broken, is there damage, has the box been slit open or retaped. If it is, then they are likely to be suspicious and not accept the return if it is not in saleable condition.

SumoLego · March 2020

That's also why many foods that don't actually expire for months (or years!) still have relatively short 'Good By' dates on them. Manufacturers of perishable items don't want a period of unlimited liability where common sense would neutralize a lawsuit.

Probably shouldn't eat frozen peas from 1985. But if I do, and I get sick - if it is past the expiration date, then it's on me.

560Heliport · March 2020

When I bought #75051 from Target about a week after release, it turned out that bags 1 and 2 had been cut open and the minifigures stolen. I then looked at the box and could not figure out how it was done- tape seals looked intact (except what I had cut) and the box seams also. Target exchanged it with no hassles. I opened the replacement in the store to verify it was good. If I, knowing what to look for, couldn't figure out how it was tampered with, how could a store employee be expected to do so?

leo3344 · March 2020

CCC said:

leo3344 said:

What is today's world? It's 2020 It's a sophisticated computing and management world. How difficult for a regular employee to know what to check about the returned products when there is guideline for them that they can learn or just look at the computer about different products? If all products are handled the same, why return of some products e.g. underwear, food not allowed or just thrown away?

If it is quick and easy for an employee to do it, then it is also quick and easy for a customer to check things such as seals, box condition, and so on.

leo3344 said:

It was only you believe that those stores sell to customers and expect them to open immediately, it's not a widely accepted concept. It's common that many people buy a lot of food and drinks for the next few weeks or months because they need to drive a long way, do they open ALL of their food immediately after purchase?

Making sure the quality, safety, completeness, authenticity of the products is always the responsibility of the product or service provider. You buy a coke or hamburger in McDonald or KFC or any responsible chain store and you take it away out of their eyesight for even a second and you back telling them the food is nasty and you want a return or refund, their guideline to their staff is to throw away your food immediately no matter what, will they sell it to another customer?

In addition, sometimes there could be thousands of pieces for a Lego set, it's the customer's responsibility to check every single pieces to make sure that all pieces
are authentic and original? Do you take your fast food bought from McDonald for assay in laboratory after you buy it? If you get poisoning after you eat the food, can McDonald say it's your responsibility to check the safety of the food?

I have no comment about whether Lego set should be returned or not but if return is allowed, they should have a special team to investigate the returned product first before they can sell it as new and if they don't want to do that they can just sell it as used or disclose the information about the condition of the product as returned to the next customer. If they don't want to do this, return of Lego should never be allowed.

Trying to make up more excuses that sound more reasonable to argue with me next time

There is a difference between food and LEGO, especially food served in an open container such as fast food. I don't really understand why you are equating the two of them.

I think the best a store can do is check the box - are the seals broken, is there damage, has the box been slit open or retaped. If it is, then they are likely to be suspicious and not accept the return if it is not in saleable condition.

Why food and LEGO cannot be compared. You may worry that returned food has hygiene problem, who can assure that returned Lego has no hygiene problem?
You can say that food is to be eaten, Lego isn't. But it's just how common a child
may bite a Lego brick or put their fingers into their mouth. You can say that bricks
are sealed in bags, but how easy it is to reseal the bag, it is not rocket science.

I have never disagreed with return policy totally, but while they allow return they should
also at the same time foresee the possible risks of returned products and investigate
any returned products, doesn't it make sense? It is just totally pointless and non-sense
if they just get the returned product and look at only the tapes is sealed then doesn't unbox and sell to another customer

klinton · March 2020

leo3344 said:

Why food and LEGO cannot be compared. You may worry that returned food has hygiene problem, who can assure that returned Lego has no hygiene problem?
You can say that food is to be eaten, Lego isn't. But it's just how common a child
may bite a Lego brick or put their fingers into their mouth. You can say that bricks
are sealed in bags, but how easy it is to reseal the bag, it is not rocket science.

This is just insane. Full stop. If you can't understand the difference between food and Lego then there's no point in engaging.

leo3344 said:

I have never disagreed with return policy totally, but while they allow return they should
also at the same time foresee the possible risks of returned products and investigate
any returned products, doesn't it make sense? It is just totally pointless and non-sense
if they just get the returned product and look at only the tapes is sealed then doesn't unbox and sell to another customer

If they accept returns, then they'll accept a return if you have any issue with the resold product. Investing more time and money into training staff to detect a myriad different possibilities for returned items across thousands of product lines is a completely unrealistic expectation.

SumoLego · March 2020

There is far more value to customer goodwill than scrutinizing every returned product.

I recently returned two fried LED lightbulbs - w/o a receipt (it was the house brand) that were within the warranty period. They happily gave me two new ones. As a result I will continue to shop there. Retailers don't want to antagonize customers over marginal nonsense.

Now, I must buy up every last roll of toilet paper, because... stupid.

CCC · March 2020

klinton said:

This is just insane. Full stop. If you can't understand the difference between food and Lego then there's no point in engaging.

This. Exactly this.

Cyberdragon · March 2020

That user is from Japan, where they have bidets in public toilets and are insane about cleanliness, hence the rediculous comments.

Also what is it with the bloody "preppers" raiding stores? Corona will not cause a zombie attack.

SumoLego · March 2020

My goal is to own a fully-automated Japanese toilet. Someday...

Cyberdragon said:

Corona will not cause a zombie attack.

Have you not seen Resident Evil?

560Heliport · March 2020

My new job is at that place that sells almost anything online and ships it from warehouses everywhere... You know, they share their name with a river in South America... ;) We were told that package condition doesn't matter as long as the contents are present and intact.

SumoLego · March 2020

Orinoco.com is awesome! I buy all of my cat litter and Instapots through them.

Purchase from Lego.com arrived re-taped/box damage

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