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Just how good is set 10223 (Kingdom Joust)

mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
edited March 2012 in Collecting
After building the Medieval Market Village I've been eyeing this set. At first, looking at the pictures it didn't do much for me. However it does appear pretty detailed and looks like it would match MMV pretty well. I would rather have a finished, four walled castle but there isn't one available (at least new). So I've read a few reviews but I'm sure those are somewhat biased. I don't have a Lego store in my area so I can't go see one on display. Any quick overall impressions? How does it stand up to MMV and other Castle sets? Thanks.
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Comments

  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas Member Posts: 8,404
    Kings Castle

    http://www.bricklink.com/search.asp?pg=1&q=7946&advOpt=Y&sz=25&searchSort=P

    Or, if you only want USA sellers:

    http://www.bricklink.com/search.asp?pg=1&q=7946&invNew=N&itemType=S&viewFrom=sf&advOpt=Y&sz=25&searchSort=P

    While Joust has more parts than Kings Castle does, they are smaller. I haven't checked the weight, but both boxes feel pretty similar in weight.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas Member Posts: 8,404
    BTW, Joust was really meant to be a 2x set, meaning you need to buy 2 of them to make it look "right".

    Fine, for a BOGO, but pretty expensive for a current released set.

    http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60628

    Take a look at the first picture, that is what comes in a single set, the second picture is what it looks like when you combine them.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    Thanks for the links. Yes, a much better looking set when combined, but $240 is too much. I do like how it uses smaller bricks to give a more detailed and finished look. The King's Castle appears to use a lot of the large "wall bricks" or whatever you call them. Makes it look more like a Fisher Price toy unfortunately.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    I'd rate 10223 a notch below MMV; it's not quite as detailed and costs more. But it is in the same conversation, which is quite respectable. The modular approach was shrewd and well-executed, and I couldn't resist buying two, despite already finding myself with a severe lack of display space.

    If you're going to buy a complement to MMV, imo, it's a no-brainer as you can see that the Joust is on the same proper scale, and conversely, the castles are undersized.
  • lulwutlulwut Member Posts: 417
    edited March 2012
    Will combining two King's Castle also work? The small size castle was quite underwhelming.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    ^^Thanks for the review. Any chance Lego will offer a deal on buying two?

  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas Member Posts: 8,404
    ^^Thanks for the review. Any chance Lego will offer a deal on buying two?
    Wouldn't that be nice... Buy one, second one for 25% off or something...

    Just consider for a minute that the box of Cafe Corner had on it, what, an example of what 4 or 6 of them would look like put together...

    Now THAT is nuts... :)
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    ^^ No, not very likely at all since LEGO only really discounts sets when they are scheduled to discontinue. Moreover, in the past two years, it appears they've switched to a model of very long clearance sales at only moderate discounts as opposed to the quick selling clear outs of the past.

    If you don't mind being patient, I'd probably wait to see if the set becomes available at Toy R Us, and then wait for a BOGO 50% sale. Here's to hoping they won't mark it up and that there isn't a limit of one. But worst case scenario, you can pick them up from LEGO for 10% off on Black Friday.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited March 2012
    Will combining two King's Castle also work? The small size castle was quite underwhelming.
    It's possible, but the obvious method of combining it would be to have it take up twice the footprint (surface area), whereas I think the deficiency with the LEGO castles in general are that the walls are not very high. The raised baseplate approach of yesteryear helped shore up that deficiency by effectively doubling the height so minifigs need to do more than stand on one another's shoulders to storm a castle :p

    Anyhow, TLG can't do an adequately sized single-set castle and have much hope of hitting a reasonable price point. After seeing the preview of the Joust last year, I was hopeful that they might take a modular approach to a castle in the future, but unfortunately that prospect is shelved for the foreseeable future since LOTR is coming.
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    A modular castle would be epic.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    One approach Lego could use in designing a taller Castle is use large "wall blocks" for the base and then go for the more intricate, small brick approach for the rest. This would give the Castle a more interesting look like MMV and Joust sets. Another deficiency I see with the Castle sets is the lack of a decent sized throne room. The throne room should be the center piece of the set. I wonder if they could just bump the price up to $200 and pull off something like this. Look at the Town Hall Model. It doesn't need to be as tall, but try to design something similar to the interior of TH except on a Medieval time scale.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    ^ yes, just bump the price up by 2/3'ds and loose 80% of the customers....
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    ^^ Yes, I understand that there is a risk in losing customers. However, Lego is also selling the Joust set as a "potential" modular. After you buy two Joust sets you're looking at $240. That and you have a lot of waste... not really waste, but the only real advantage of two Joust sets is making the Castle look more complete. I don't need two kings, queens etc.

    I think they're aiming the Joust set at those who purchased MMV so in a way I they're test marketing to see if there is potential for a modular Castle. Maybe Jamie can chime in on this?
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    edited March 2012
    Its hardly any more modular that the old castles of the 80's along with things like the blacksmiths, guarded inn, siege tower etc. Except it has nothing to join on to.

    I really hope they don't go near a modular castle at around the price point you're suggesting - castles should be for kids and priced appropriately imo.
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
    However, Lego is also selling the Joust set as a "potential" modular. ...

    I think they're aiming the Joust set at those who purchased MMV so in a way I they're test marketing to see if there is potential for a modular Castle.
    The alternative view is just that the sets are from the same theme, much like you could buy an Atlantis [or insert any theme here] City of Atlantis, or the Portal, or both or more from the same theme.

  • graphitegraphite Member Posts: 3,275
    So this 2x Joust thing is something that was driven from LEGO? Do the instructions include how to build it?
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099

    I really hope they don't go near a modular castle....
    The current Joust set is the current "castle" set for all intents and it's designed to be modular. I'm just commenting how they can potentially do better with the next one.

  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    ^ nice way to cut out half of the quote... let me correct that for you.

    "I really hope they don't go near a modular castle at around the price point you're suggesting"
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    edited March 2012
    ^^ So you rather pay $240 for a complete castle vs. $200? You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. I used the Town Hall example of how they could do a castle "right". I'm speaking on behalf of AFOL, not kids. They could still offer a $99 Castle for the kids. I don't see them doing this, but it's fun to speculate.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    Maybe it's just me, but I notice a lot of members on this forum, whom I assume are AFOL, for whatever reason argue against Lego offering more sets aimed at adults. It seems whenever someone suggests that they do, there's about three or four saying that Lego wouldn't make any money and they should only focus on Ninjago and Star Wars. Odd, but that's the internet for you.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    ^ I think the reason is obvious. We would all of course appreciate such sets - but we are realistic about it. LEGO is going to devote 90%+ of it's SKUs towards kids. As such, they need to hit certain price points, which top out at around $100 in any given theme. They can't very well have a $100 castle and a $200 castle sitting on the shelves at the same time competing against each other. And doing a $200 castle instead of a $100 castle is an enormous money losing proposition. They wouldn't sell half as many - they would likely sell 4 or 5 times less at that price point.

    AFOLs seem to want every imaginable set or theme built out in $200+ price point sets. Most of us are just pointing out that it isn't a realistic request and it isn't going to happen. Besides, isn't that what MOCs are for? If an AFOL wants an epic castle - go buy multiple sets and design and build their own. Then they can make it be exactly what they want. But it seems many just ask for the easy road, and want LEGO to make dozens of sets every years in the $200+ price range.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    edited March 2012
    ^^^ No because 2x joust definitely doesn't make a complete castle. It makes an arch and a courtyard.

    ^^ Or it could be that every time you argue for an additional AFOL based set you are unwittingly arguing for the removal of a child friendly set (although the two aren't mutually exclusive, for example I know a boy who opted for a Grand Carousel instead of a birthday party).

    It could also be that some of us AFOL's also have children and put their Lego experience ahead of our own.

    It could be that some of us AFOL's get as much enjoyment from sets that remind us of our own childhood (i.e. old castle, old pirate, old train) as we do from more complex building sets.

    Or it could just be that some of us appreciate that the AFOL market is about this small >< whilst the child market for lego is more like this <===========>.

    Indeed, in this particular case it could be that its better to make AFOL's pay $40 more for their kind of set than to make children pay $80 more for theirs.

    Yes, that is the internet for you, lots of different people with lots of different points of view but all here because of a common love/appreciation for Lego.
  • graphitegraphite Member Posts: 3,275
    They can't very well have a $100 castle and a $200 castle sitting on the shelves at the same time competing against each other.
    They had the $50 and $120 hogwarts on the shelf at the same time and I'm assuming both of those were intended for children. Why not have a childrens and adult version of something on the shelf at the same time?

  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    ^^ It's just called speculation. For a creative hobby, the AFOL here seem to be lacking some.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    ^ I think the reason is obvious. We would all of course appreciate such sets - but we are realistic about it. LEGO is going to devote 90%+ of it's SKUs towards kids.
    So what you're saying is that if you were on the board at Lego while Jamie was presenting the modular concept you would of shot it down? Was the Imperial Flagship truly a child's toy? All I'm saying that it would be interesting to see what Lego could come up with at $200 in a Castle set. At this point, I'm sick of hearing about "Lego can't make any money on this and that" you guys sound like old fudey-dudeys.

  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    edited March 2012
    So what you're saying is that if you were on the board at Lego while Jamie was presenting the modular concept you would of shot it down? Was the Imperial Flagship truly a child's toy? All I'm saying that it would be interesting to see what Lego could come up with at $200 in a Castle set.
    That is not what I'm saying at all. Of course the IF was aimed at AFOL's, as is Joust and the Modulars, and the UCS sets. We get around 5 to 10 AFOL-based products per year, and I'm thankful we do. Would I love it if there were 20? Sure (though my wallet might not), but I'm realistic in my expectations, that's all. I agree that seeing a $200 castle set would be really cool. But I know that when LEGO makes a castle set, they are aiming it towards kids. They have to hit that $100 price point. Kids care about play features, not realism. LEGO is smart about their execution in these regards. Of course AFOLs find them lacking, which is why there are so many amazing MOCs out there.

    Just because I understand and accept the realities of the situation doesn't mean I don't share the pipe dreams and wishful thinkings, nor does it make me a fudey-dudey. It makes me a realist.


  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    edited March 2012
    Of course AFOLs find them lacking, which is why there are so many amazing MOCs out there.
    I agree. I would just hate to be a Lego designer who wants to design a really cool Castle and is shot down because it doesn't meet the rather stringent design standards. An intricate castle I think would be major draw if it were on display at the Lego Stores. I know my family was really impressed with the MMV set. That's all I'm asking for, a castle set designed with the same care as MMV. Oh well, I guess I need to start buying up brick lots on ebay.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    ^^ It's just called speculation. For a creative hobby, the AFOL here seem to be lacking some.
    I find this ironic, since the most creative AFOL's build amazing MOCs far beyond the scope of anything LEGO could put into production, while the least creative AFOL's sit around and ask LEGO to make a $200+ set out of everything they think would be cool.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    I agree. I would just hate to be a Lego designer who wants to design a really cool Castle and is shot down because it doesn't meet the rather stringent design standards.
    I'm pretty certain all the LEGO designers understand the price point they have to hit on the product, and they have to make design and detail tradeoffs to hit that price point. If I had to guess, I'm sure they spend some time building their ultimate wishlist versions as well, but they know those things won't be mass produced, because that isn't the target audience.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    Having a quick look at the current Lego S@H selection - there is by my reckoning almost 20 sets aimed at least in part at AFOLs - modulars, architect sets, other 10000 sets and techinc sets around £100 or more. And thats not even including some of the 10000 sets like MMV and diagon alley.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    To be clear, I am not (nor do I think anyone is) "arguing against LEGO making" such sets. We just accept that it is not a realistic request. That is a big difference.
  • forumreaderforumreader Member Posts: 97
    edited March 2012
    I prefer the way they've done it with Joust and Hogwarts in providing a base model that's expandable with repeat purchases. Helms Deep from LOTR appears to also follow this idea.

    It looks like most of the pieces get reused if you combine models, unlike the train sets where AFOLs need to sell off the extra engine and tender if they want more rolling stock.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited March 2012
    Its hardly any more modular that the old castles of the 80's along with things like the blacksmiths, guarded inn, siege tower etc.
    The Joust set is more modular. The tower of each set is effectively sliced vertically, and joining two makes a single solid building, as demonstrated by the product images.

    Previous sets have varying levels of success in achieving expansion by simply adding additional sets. The walled castles that hinged open and connected by pin (6080, 6085, etc) are candidates for easy expansion, but as I was saying, it just doubles the footprint, and the towers don't join nicely, if at all.

    My suggestion of a modular castle would be half of a castle wall that is twice as high, and a keep (tower) enclosed within the wall like a real castle. Again, the keep could be designed with an open back (half a keep) with a playable interior. Thus two sets would easily combine to yield a castle that has walls twice as high, and a substantial center keep, and not just small towers built upon small walls.
    I really hope they don't go near a modular castle at around the price point you're suggesting - castles should be for kids and priced appropriately imo.
    I don't necessarily agree that a larger, more expensive castle would be off-limits for kids. I think TLG is pretty conservative with their age recommendation so I don't think a more detailed approach necessarily precludes kids, but there is merit to keeping the price down (not simply because it's for kids, but in general). TLG obviously feels the same, because in themed lines, they hit recurring, specific price points.

    This is precisely why I think a modular design approach may be a solution to maintain a lower price point, but still offer the ability for expansion.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    edited March 2012
    This is precisely why I think a modular design approach may be a solution to maintain a lower price point, but still offer the ability for expansion.
    This we can definitely agree on. In fact, I would say the idea of standalone play sets that are also designed to work together in an expandable modular faction is possible the key to creating more kid/AFOL crossover products. And by this I mean more than just multiples of the exact same set. Certainly this isn't possible with all themes, but it might lend itself to certain ones. The key is to create 3 or 4 different sets that could all combine into one bigger set (appeal to AFOLs), yet all work individually as stand-alone items (kids). This allows the price points to remain lower, and even the kids could have a goal to collect the whole combination - but it is much easier to get their parents to buy them 4 $50 items at separate times than it is to get a single $200 item all at once. I'd like to see LEGO give something like this a try. they have somewhat ventured there with the Hogwarts and mini hogwarts, and it looks like they are doing the same with two LOTR sets, but I'd like to see them go a step further in this direction. This could be the win-win scenario.

  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas Member Posts: 8,404
    Allow me to toss another thought into the ring...

    While it is true that Lego seems to top out at $100 for most of their "kids" sets, they are starting to push that. 7965, the new Millennium Falcon, retails for $140. From what I hear from my local Lego store, it is one of their better sellers, far more than a set like Joust.

    Ok, it is "Star Wars", I get that, but those are, mostly, going to kids, so I'm not sure the $100 rule is going to hold for very long.

    That being said, 7965 isn't much of an "epic" set for the price, when I finished it, my wife noted that I had a disappointed look on my face. It felt... 2/3 done... It is just small compared to the X-Wing and TIE Fighter models, I would have liked it to be another 300 or so parts, give it another few inches in each direction. But I also get that pushes the price point up.

    So what would a $149 castle look like? Hopefully better than Kings Castle. We'll see if LOTR gives us such a set, so far I'm not jumping up and down at any of that line.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    edited March 2012
    So what would a $149 castle look like? Hopefully better than Kings Castle. We'll see if LOTR gives us such a set, so far I'm not jumping up and down at any of that line.
    Well I just jumped on the BN.com Kings Castle. It will be at least another year before a fully featured castle is released. I agree that it visually doesn't do a lot and I'm almost thinking that I might wait to build it to see if ebay prices rise above $200.

    I agree that the LOTR sets are kind of half-baked. I like when a set has a completed look *ie* a castle has four walls, buildings have four walls, rooms have furniture etc. I don't really care for the playsets with no rear walls.

  • ErnstErnst Member Posts: 133
    edited March 2012
    The Joust can also be combined with The King's Castle and Outpost Attack, gives a nice result too. Only the Outpost Attack is without pins so needs some creativity. I think combined with the MMV the result will be even more great, only I don't own the MMV yet.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas Member Posts: 8,404
    @Ernst - nice pic, thanks!

    I will say however that Joust looks oversized compared to Kings Castle... You almost need to take a pair of Kings Castle and do a custom job with that to make the walls taller.

    Hmm...

    I've never done a MOC, maybe that will be my first, since I'm unlikely to actually get a $200 Castle from Lego.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    ^^ Now that's what I'm talking about. The Joust set actually looks better as a Castle front.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    edited March 2012
    I've never done a MOC, maybe that will be my first, since I'm unlikely to actually get a $200 Castle from Lego.
    At least with the King's Castle I'll have a starting place for doing a MOC. Later this year I may add the Joust set to try doing what Ernst did.

  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas Member Posts: 8,404
    At least with the King's Castle I'll have a starting place for doing a MOC. Later this year I may add the Joust set to try doing what Ernst did.
    Did you get two of them from the recent B&N deal?

    I would think having a pair of them would make it much easier to start... I bought 3 of them, I was going to keep one and sell the other 2, I might keep 2 in this case to MOC up a castle.

    If I ever do it, I'll be sure to post pictures so everyone can have a good laugh at my terrible design skills. :)
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,099
    edited March 2012
    Did you get two of them from the recent B&N deal?
    Thought about it but I don't have the money. I'd rather save up buy the Joust set later this year to add to it.

  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
    ^^ It's just called speculation. For a creative hobby, the AFOL here seem to be lacking some.
    I find this ironic, since the most creative AFOL's build amazing MOCs far beyond the scope of anything LEGO could put into production, while the least creative AFOL's sit around and ask LEGO to make a $200+ set out of everything they think would be cool.
    I totally agree with this. The modular set you are looking for is stored in the PAB wall at your local store. Get a couple of thousand grey bricks and start building.

    When I was a kid growing up in the 1970s I don't think I had one true lego set. We had a bucket full of lego bought second hand (probably from the 1960s basic sets). No instructions, no pictures of what to build. Just a bucket full of bricks. I think I had three men with no moveable arms and legs that I had to share with my two brothers. Yet that bucket spawned lots of creativity. I think there are almost too many sets these days, stifling creativity. It seems to be creating an attitude of you cannot create something if it is not on the box.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    As has been proved. A few of these and one of those and a bit of imagination and your done. I spent my childhood combining the old kings castle,black falcons fortress and guarded inn to create some amazing multi level castles with keeps and outer walls. Isn't this the purpose of lego not modulars that sit on a shelf.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    ^ it's certainly one application, but LEGO has a very broad appeal: for each inspired MOCer, I can show you a fan that doesn't build custom creations.

    But the presence of a modular doesn't necessitate the death of imagination. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite; larger and more detailed designs demonstrate what is possible with LEGO, and the more LEGO designers incorporate advanced building techniques and present it to the masses, the more variety and creativity we are going to see.
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
    edited March 2012
    .... I can show you a fan that doesn't build custom creations.
    But is that fan being creative? In my view, following instructions to build something is not being creative.
  • yys4uyys4u Member Posts: 1,093
    edited March 2012
    Just for reference, here's a horrible quality picture I took when I had all the Kingdom sets put together. I had them all laying around and wanted to put them all in one place so I just MOCed up a little display in a couple minutes. (Yes I know there is flowers in the water... I didn't want them falling off my table) I wish I had taken a picture with something other than my cell phone, cause I have the MMV set up next to the castle but you can't see it..

    **EDIT** I've since taken it apart so can't get better images. In the process of carpet cleaning so I had to move a bunch of stuff around. Maybe I'll set it back up.
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
    Your waterlillies flower well :-)
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    Joust is a nice set, and I may buy for the pieces and the Black Falcon, but it is one of those sets that is very easy to create a moc that is at least as good, if not someway better. I plan to do a MOC of the jousting tournament from Game of Thrones when I get chance.

    That for me is one of the biggest problems about the set.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    But is that fan being creative? In my view, following instructions to build something is not being creative.
    Well, the fan is creating the model from blocks, and though not their own invention, it's certainly more creative than most other toys on the market.

    But, more to the point, there's no creativity requirement for being a consumer of LEGO. There are people who are content only being set-models, and that's perfectly legitimate.
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