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Why no more monorail?
Si_UKNZ
Member Posts: 4,179
Monorail are still very popular (especially considering the age), and people love them in City layouts, but TLG have repeatedly said that is it out of the question that they'd ever produce monorail again.
I understand they're 'off limits' for rereleases because the technology can't be recreated cost-effectively. Surely though, this is not rocket science, it's just a simple motor with a metal cog and battery attached, it can't be hard to source these cost-effectively, or adapt it to a technology which can. Or is the technology reason (which people often give) incorrect- is the purely down to low projected sales?
(for what it's worth, I'd be in favour of new monorail designs as well as improvements to the technology, rather than a re-release)
I understand they're 'off limits' for rereleases because the technology can't be recreated cost-effectively. Surely though, this is not rocket science, it's just a simple motor with a metal cog and battery attached, it can't be hard to source these cost-effectively, or adapt it to a technology which can. Or is the technology reason (which people often give) incorrect- is the purely down to low projected sales?
(for what it's worth, I'd be in favour of new monorail designs as well as improvements to the technology, rather than a re-release)
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Comments
I did look on Cuuso but the monorails up there are not that good.
Guess I could try and develop one for Cuuso based on the old technology but whats the point if Lego will never make it out of principle?
http://lego.cuusoo.com/ideas/view/487
has 5700 views, but only 167 votes.
This says to me that quite a lot of people are looking for monorail, but don't want to vote for this one. Me included - I dont much like the design.
One of the problems of doing a monorail on Cuuso is what system to choose - if you choose the old bogeys and bases you're pretty much limited to 4-wide which doesnt look right these days, and if you choose a 'brick built' system (i.e. no system) then you end up with great ugly lumps all over the place like the one linked to above.
It would need a new system of bogeys and bases and track, which ..
- Allows 6 wide cars so it looks modern.
- Needs to be stable at this width, probably has stabilising wheels in a horizontal as well as vertical plane etc, and possibly has a 'step' in the track to make it more stable for the wider cars. Hard to explain.
- Remote control, probably PF compatible. Essentially, powering it might not be too hard, simply a standard technics cog attached to an XL motor might do it if the track is designed to take it.
There was the never released aquanauts mono rail which i seem to think used the 3 x 2 x 6 (half hexagon) panels to, inadvertently, make a 4 wide base have the impression of a wider monorail. It also had the lovely idea of the above and below water color changing track.
My daughter would have zero interest in this compared to Harry Potter, Star Wars, Ninjago, Friends etc
On the motors, could they not just use a PF XL motor, possibly with gearing, like the emerald night? So if they could get away with no new motor, I can imagine that the 4 different track types will all need new molds, plus bogeys and bases making 6 new molds minimum.
Mind you, they had no problem coming up with the molds for the seldom-used narrow-gauge track used in temple of doom and funhouse escape .. in fact, over 3 years, these tracks have only been used in 3 models - and one of those was a 'out of the box' use in the AC mothership. So I dont't entirely buy the new molds argument, although I can see that it would have an influence.
Not making money is a biggie though.
I imagine that the loss is partly down to production costs - the volume of ABS in the track and supports, and the fact that to make a playable set you need a decent volume of track. Still, the volume of track in the original sets was excessive IMO ... they could have provided a lot less, especially since an aftermarket extension was available. Also, the proportion of buildings in the sets was way too high. Nobody bought those sets for the buildings, but the sheer volume of buildings and non-monorail stuff in airport shuttle for instance is incredible. Airport shuttle is the equivalent of getting 7939 passenger train bundled with 7997 train station and 7937 other train station plus a bunch of road plates and extra track thrown in as well. A lot for one set, with not much on-sell, so not smart marketing.
Things have changed a lot in the last 18 years since the last monorail - can you imagine the modular buildings being released in 1994 and succeeding? Or a huge set like Death Star or SSD? Much of the current Lego market was unimagineable back then, but nowadays there IS a market for very large sets. The market has changed a lot, and I reckon could absorb it now.
I see what you mean about 'do kids want it', but if you follow that argument through, you have to ask who's buying all the City stuff, it's not exactly full of skulls and dragons. To me, City is where monorail really shines, as it doesnt interfere with the layout like trains do, and adds 3 dimensional movement to the city. They take up a lot less room than trains and are just more practical.
To address the 'kid appeal' for the 'non-city' kids, the Monster fighters might hold a clue. The Ghost Train mixes up trains and Ninjago-like 'kid appeal'. There's no reason why this couldnt be done with monorail, for example in a theme like Monster Fighters.
Sorry for the essay, what can I say, I'm a monorail fan, if you haven't guessed. I really think that with the right research and the right concepts, a compelling buisness case could be made.
Also, there are just not enough AFOLs to justify the new molds, AFOL sets like the Emerald Knight number in the tens of thousands of units, Ninjago mid range sets are over a million sets produced. Jamie put a lot on the line to push through the big train wheels and that's just one mold. Until there are hundreds of thousands of Adult train fans demanding monorail it's going to have to appeal to the kids, and believe me we've tried, it really is either just another train and therefore boring to them. I wish it wasn't, I'd love to design a monorail set, I actually think it would be possible with the existing motors and just 2 new elements, a straight track and a corner track and a bit of funky building.
I recommend you keep asking just to make sure one dept or another tries it every few years, but baring some new monorail revolution in public transport don't hold your breath.
But regardless, Mark's not a PR person, he's a set designer. At LEGO. Realistically, what he said is accurate, even if not said in the most gracefully delicate way possible so as to avoid all negative connotations. So, although you don't have to suck up to him or kiss his feet, you DO have to accept what he says as factual.
LEGO *has* done market research, and most DO find trains boring, sorry to burst your bubble. That doesn't mean that ALL kids find them boring, or that YOUR kids will find them boring, or even that ALL kids would prefer robot ninjas who fight evil zombie dinosaurs in space. It means that the market share of "train-loving kids" is relatively small compared to LEGO's other lines, which means that LEGO isn't going to dump as much money into train sets as they do elsewhere.
You can talk to whoever you want to at LEGO-- I've personally heard from at least 4 different people at LEGO regarding monorail (2 designers and 2 community leads), and the answer's ALWAYS been the same. The hobbyist community started asking as early as 2000 or 2001, when LEGO really started discussing things with us. And the answer's still the same today.
Bottom line is that barring some sort of miracle-- like a breakthrough in plastics manufacturing, the OLD monorail system is dead, never to return. The production process is too expensive to be worth it. And LEGO hasn't given up the idea of a POSSIBLE new design for an elevated rail system, but the current foreseeable market isn't right for it, so don't expect one in the next 5 years at least.
DaveE
It's hard to believe that in today's market Lego could not sell a monorail theme set. I'm not talking about one single expensive set, but a themed set that is surrounded by high and low cost sets.
Reinventing a monorail Lego is pure gold. I believe Lego is missing an opportunity in creating something that the public dearly wants.
I do hear a lot of adult train fans and some space fans who are pretty vocal about returning monorail, but as I said above, there just aren't enough to justify it. I would like a new monorail, but I have to be realistic with you, sales history and market research are both against this idea.
Our LUG just had our LEGO event this past weekend. I had an ADU Monorail I built in an Alien Conquest display. The kids loved it. They very much focused on the monorail and figuring out where it was going and what it might be hauling (even though the line really was rather short in the grand scheme of things).
Having said that, I think the key is that unlike the Thomas toys, the LEGO train/monorail toys are very difficult for kids to put together and play with. The LEGO trains are closer to model railroading (HO scale type stuff), which is awesome for adults, but cumbersome for kids. Kids very much enjoy watching trains, and would very much play with them if they were easy to play with (like Thomas). I'm guessing this is what occurred in play testing - the kids failed to build anything.
That, and perhaps the age range for trains is a touch younger than TLG's target age for the bulk of their products (minus the Duplo, which probably does well with its trains).
Must admit I did raise an eyebrow at the suggestion there are barely enough sales to justify trains - even aside from the "themed" Toy Story and Hogwarts Express trains we currently have the Red Cargo Train, Yellow Cargo Train, Red Passenger Train and Maersk Train, with Emerald Night only just retired. That's a pretty substantial roster for a niche which can barely pay its way.
I'd certainly agree with @davee123 regarding the consistency of feedback from within LEGO regarding a new monorail, though - they hear us, but for a multitude of reasons it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future.
I wonder if any substantial amount of the train market is thanks to AFOLs? Certainly, LEGO owes a lot of publicity to AFOL displays at train shows, although I don't know how much of that contributes to sales. And it certainly wouldn't compete with something on the scale of Ninjago or something. But are AFOLs contributing significantly to the little success that trains are having?
Also, I wonder how much is parents or relatives purchasing LEGO trains as a gift that's "reminiscent" of their own childhood train kits, rather than something that kids want on their own? Seems like something a grandparent or parent might look to get for their kid, perhaps moreso likely than a child getting overly excited about it.
DaveE
Times have changes since the last monorail sets. Since then Lego as a company has grown from the red and had made, and continues to make profits. Kids don't feed the company, but adults who have the funds to purchase for themselves and others.
A monorail theme will not only generate adult excitement, but without a doudt kids would love it.
I disagree, nonetheless, Nabii, I appreicate you taking the time in answering some of our concerns.
Interestingly, LUG displays are always filled with trains, and town, and space. You never see a Ninjago display. One of our LUG members does have an Atlantis display. I imagine there will be Friends displays coming out at shows this year, but I can't imagine them being very large. Kids still love looking at it all, absorbing it, dreaming of owning all that ABS and building their own displays. They probably get home though and just spinjitzu each other like crazy just the same.
More than likely a kid will have more enjoyment out of playing with a Ninjago set than a Monorail.
Also, in regards to AFOLS wanting the set, like every OTHER thread that begs for sets to be redone, there are not enough AFOLS to justify making new molds, new designs, outsourcing to 3rd parties for the motors, etc etc.
people HAVE to remember that while AFOLs spend a lot of money it is no where near the amount that the average parent is spending on their kids for LEGOs, not when you take into effect the total amount of parents vs the total amount of AFOLs willing to spend what would probably be 200-250 dollars for a monorail set (250-300 if LEGO wants to make money and not break even Id imagine).
Also while there will be kids that think Monorails will be cool I doubt all parents will say 'Sure, let me buy this 300 monorail for you to play with for about 30 days then throw into a storage bin and I sell at a garage sale for 50 dollars'
Like in the other threads, I'm mainly playing Devil's Advocate. If you guys know what that is then you would understand where I'm coming from. I personally really dig the monorail sets especially the original 6990 Futuron model. It's on my "Buy Someday when I have the money" list. I also understand why they probably will never make another one.
BTW, focus groups suck. Focus groups are worse than being designed by a committee. The reason is that most people don't know what they want until they see it. Asking people what they want is a mistake. If Lego put out a really kick ass monorail set people would dig it. The problem is that a kick ass monorail set would cost $200 which is too much for the average Lego consumer.
Finally, regarding kids not liking trains: I recently attended a train show at a local convention center. Guess what the most popular room was? Not the Thomas train sets. It was the Lego train room. Granted there were a lot of non-train Lego sets there, it was the train sets that brought the room together. Like a good rug brings the room together ;)
I don't think the problem is that kid's don't like monorails, it's that it's just the price point of a Lego monorail set, properly done, with tracks and a couple of buildings is too cost prohibitive.
What I'm not willing to risk, though, is losing the participation of TLG employees, or any other subject matter experts, due to unwarranted, uninformed, and unappreciative challenges of their information.