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LEGO fight Against Chinese counterfeit LEGO
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We are also aware many customisers infringe other companies' IP for their own profit.
https://youtu.be/3bxcc3SM_KA
This is why I want to know the specifics of the lawsuit filed by TLG.
@Pitfall69
"It has been mentioned many times in this thread that what LEPIN is doing is illegal"
That doesn't necessarily make it so, and knowing your posts I'm sure you didn't suggest to intimate that.
I can't go back and read this monster, SO... are there actual court cases where LEPIN was convicted of doing something illegal?.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned as of yet, but is it of any real consequence if TLG prevails against Lepin? Wont Lepin simply change its name and resume production under a different name? Or wont some other copycat do the exact same thing Lepin is doing in very short order?
My perception is that the cat has been let out of the bag at this point, and there's probably very little that TLG can realistically do (short of bankrupting itself suing copycats) to stem the tide of fake Lego sets being produced.
Like many, I have mixed feelings about it all. On the one hand, I'm glad to have access to inexpensive sets that TLG has long since retired. On the other, I'm wary that copycats might have a detrimental impact to TLG as a whole, and thus will begin the gradual decline of the golden age of Lego. Like others have stated, only time will tell how this all pans out.
I also wanted to address something that @CCC stated regarding people being able to afford a particular set. I can't speak for everyone obviously, but I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy pretty much any Lego set I want within reason, new or retired. However, there is little chance I would spend, say, $1,500 on a product instead of purchasing a virtually identical product for $150. It just doesn't make sense to most people. Therefore, buying Lepin may not necessarily an issue of affordability, but rather an issue of being judicious with the use of one's money. The ethical aspect of this issue can be debated indefinitely, of course.
"I'm wary that copycats might have a detrimental impact to TLG as a whole, and thus will begin the gradual decline of the golden age of Lego
Well articulated opinion I enjoyed reading it. I am not sure if that would happen though, the part I quoted. I've read about some startups that got creamed by counterfeiting, but a larger company like LEGO? I dunno...I think they will weather it OK. Besides, we don't know if tools won't be developed in the future for better policing of it.
And certainly there are things that could be done now that are not. I personally think TLG is suing the wrong company. They should not be suing LEPIN. They should be suing Amazon, eBay and AliExpress and every other major online retailer that allows the selling of the product to continue. It is not realistic that they could win, but they might force a settlement that would force these groups to take action. If they faced a penalty instead of a percentage of each sale, it might motivate them to take the product down. Tools exist to weed stuff out. Try to list porn in a toy category. I dare ya! :)
I don't think that will happen, I think the stuff in some form will be around. That's just life.
Perhaps my argument is naive or simplistic. It's not necessarily an argument for or against Lepin to be honest. I just agree that Lego's efforts would likely be more fruitful to go after the retailers selling the products rather than the maker of the products.
I wonder how feasible this would be? I'm not familiar enough with the legal landscape of this issue to know, but I wonder if it is the responsibility of Amazon, ebay, AliExpress, et al to police all listings to identify potentially counterfeit products? Further, it hasn't yet been legally established (to my knowledge) that what Lepin is doing is illegal. I would think that some legal precedent would need to be established first, and only then could the online marketplaces be compelled to take some sort of action to prevent Lepin sales. Lastly (as I mentioned previously), it's probably an exercise in futility anyway. If Lepin goes away, another copycat (or 20) will likely take it's place.
I've visited and purchased products from AliExpress/DHGate and have yet to have any issues. I even paid for an item that was never received and was refunded. Generally speaking, it is in the best interest of merchants on these sites to act in the best interest of their customers. Otherwise, there wont be any customers (obviously). I'm sure there are scammers on these sites, but the risk seems very tolerable if buying from a merchant with decent feedback. I'm just sharing my experience, thoughts, and opinions. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to purchase fake Lego, of course!Lele are now bringing out ucs sets too. They have beaten lepin to market with r2d2 for instance.
Aliexpress is actually safer than eBay. The seller only gets your money once you confirm that you have the goods and are happy with them. Buyers have all the power without having to scam the sellers, like on eBay
* Lepin is releasing more Star Plan sets
* Including old UCS sets such as the ISD
* But they substituted key parts due to unavailability of parts!
* Lepin Technic parts do not have tight enough tolerance to work. This affects the Emerald Night too.
* Lepin raised prices by 10-15%
* After exhausting Modular Buildings and the 4 MOCs, Lepin is copying Oxford's Game Room. (Or so I read.) The Lepin's 150xx range is almost like a badge of "honour" -- the building is good enough to be worth copying.
* Lele is releasing Modular Buildings too (and cheaper)
Lepin is copycat, but it isn't charity. :-D
I'm not surprised Decool does better Technic sets. They have been at it for years! Also, I think they have the Porsche in two other colors, white and green?
@Judy, can you give some examples of the replacement parts? I have not seen this mentioned before.
But there's also companies like Netbricks, WeLoveBricks.com and LittleBird that come up when I Google "lego rental" - I have no experience of them, but I can see the uses for people who just want to experience a build, and/or perhaps don't have a lot of storage or display space to accommodate a permanent large collection of Lego. Seems like an alternative worth considering for people who'd buy from Lepin just to have the build experience.
Like @nkx1, I worry that Lepin might have a detrimental effect on TLG over time. Things are going so well now - the company is doing stuff I wished they'd do when I was younger (Ideas, so many sets aimed at AFOLs, licensed character sets), and things I never imagined then. But I wonder about the cost of TLG dealing with it (increased security and legal action must cost a lot), and also the dilution of the brand. Say Lepin etc. become available through more and more channels, and it's not just AFOLs treating it as just another option, but the average person buying Lego for kids?
I did wonder if one option TLG have would be to give less preferential treatment to retail partners (e.g. Amazon) that also sell Lepin stuff, but that could rebound on them, in that if Amazon have access to fewer Lego sets at less competitive bulk prices, that will be passed on to Amazon's customers, to whom Lepin will just become more attractive... it's a puzzle.
Resellers will get shut down and sued.
Some Ali sellers are already not selling to some European countries as customs are stopping so many packages
@nyhone makes sense. I'm not familiar with how rare the part is.
Counterfeit product doesn't even factor in nearly as much as bad eBay selling practices. I say that as a person who has run an eBay store since 2005. There are a butt load of bad, BAD Sellers out there.
There are countless examples of underestimating one's opponent and getting burned. I wouldn't underestimate the potential impact of Lepin and other copycats on the plastic brick market. If these sets become ubiquitous on ebay, it stands to reason that they could become "big". If the sets stay on Aliexpress and DHGate, then I would tend to agree with you, assuming Aliexpress and DHGate don't become more popular in the U.S.
As far as resellers getting sued, I believe it would have be legally established that the products are illegal, which hasn't yet happened to my knowledge. Then TLG would need to sue individual resellers. Although the music industry seems to have had some fleeting success in a loosely similar regard (suing end users and distributors in possession of illegally-downloaded music), it's hard to say if TLG would have the tenacity to engage in such tactics. Anything is possible, I suppose. I think TLG might have more success in compelling ebay to remove listings.
Regarding European countries stopping packages, how are they doing this legally? Are you referring to just Lepin and related sets? If so, has a European court ruled that all Lepin sets are illegal? What about all the other brands? Don't customs agencies have more pressing matters to attend to, like humans being imported?
Doesn't take much for a customs officer to search on the internet for the selling price and work out that they are being under declared value wise.
iirc it was Italy stopping lots of packages and seizing them. A few sellers are refusing to send instruction manuals for fear of getting it stopped. All rather random, but adds to the risk for any potential customer
Don't know if it's the same everywhere in the world, but in the United States, copyright and trademark holders send their registration documents to Customs and Border Protection. When CBP finds goods that they suspect infringe one of these copyrights or trademarks, they seize the products and notify the importer. Then the importer has to choose whether to contest the claim of infringement through the court system or forfeit the goods and pay a fine. CBP also seeks out feedback from the IP holder on whether the product violates their trademarks and why, which will be presented in court if it comes to that.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/alibaba-sues-sellers-of-counterfeit-goods-for-the-first-time-after-it-was-blacklisted-by-the-us.html
Looks like Alibaba is sick of having one of it's sites (taobao.com) on the US blacklist.
This story is about Swarovski watches, but what I find interesting is that it was the Chinese government that raided the companies after complaints by the owner of Alibaba. Just shows that money talks, it was just a matter of time before the pressure from other countries started impacting Alibaba to the point that they started going after suppliers on their site.
Hopefully this will impact Lepin, but since the jury is still out on whether Lepin is counterfeit or not I guess we will have to see. Either way I see this as definite progress. :-)
However, while patent on basic LEGO blocks is certainly expired, I'm pretty sure the LEGO minifigure is still protected by trademark (LEGO won a case against Best-Lock in the General Court of the EU upholding this trademark as recently as June 2015). So sets containing minifigures could probably be seized by customs on grounds of trademark violations. Many more recent LEGO patents like the patents on the mini-doll used in girl-oriented sets, the "Character and Creature Building System" used in constraction sets, and the interlocking bases used in Juniors sets also remain active.
"The company has been taking steps to deal with the fake goods issue. It employs 2,000 permanent staff and 5,000 volunteers to help find counterfeit goods. Alibaba also uses data and artificial intelligence to root out fake items. Its algorithms monitor hundreds of data points such as price and transaction records of sellers to root out illegitimate products. The e-commerce giant said it was able to scan images and logos and find mismatches between the text of a listing and the accompanying photo. For example, a name brand watch might be listed for one price, but the image might show a lower figure."
2,000 permanent staff, 5,000 volunteers and various artificial intelligence. With that many resources, any product should be wiped off the map. ANY. You and I can manually go in and spot the stuff on our own and probably hit half the LEPIN inventory on AliExpress in a day. But it would come back. Somehow. Mainly because AliExpress itself suffers no penalty for allowing it on their site to begin with. That's one core issue, one CNBC misses in their write up.
You can't rely on Customs to fix it. Governments don't even go after companies that knock off Rolex and Gucci and Prada and other high end brands, why are they going to use border resources the way they need to (or any other) to seek out toy knock offs? It doesn't compute to me. Especially when they need to be allocated to search for so MANY things.
As a younger man I collected all kinds of toys voraciously. As a collector and during my entire career in toy manufacturing I have come across all kinds of knock-offs and counterfeit products. Not just from China but some made in Mexico, Brazil, India, etc. Buddies of mine have collected them as a hobby.
A lot of of them have been stuff like DC and Marvel figs, Star Wars figs and the like. Hasbro and Mattel are still here. LEGO will still be here. Assuming that these knockoffs persist, which I believe they will, as long as they sit on a fence of legality. As long as it is half-OK for retailers to sell them globally.
i should dig up one of my favorites, my boxing bed sheet Darth Maul as I call him. Where did I put that thing!
Remember this has got to be done by a customs officer though. If they see a small figure and are not an AFOL, will they care or even be able to tell if it looks like a LEGO minifigure, a megabloks one, a best-lock one, a playmobil one, a Polly Pocket one, etc.
http://www.go-globe.com/blog/alibaba-statistics-trends/
fun facts (assumes the data linked above is accurate)
Number of annual sellers on AliBaba: 8.5 million
Number of sales annually : 12.7 BILLION
Number of sellers penalized for selling counterfeit goods:131,000
2000 people sounds like a lot of staff until you consider the number of listings to be reviewed. 7000 people policing 8.8 million sellers, making 12.7 billion transactions. Each staff member including volunteers would have to check 1258 sellers.
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cbp-seizes-10000-counterfeit-designer-handbags-miami-seaport
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cbp-seizes-over-29-million-counterfeit-designer-jewelry
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cbp-seizes-500k-fake-goods
The fact that they haven't completely eliminated the problem doesn't mean they aren't fighting it, or that those fights never result in any meaningful victories.
You're right that no customs agency can shut down the manufacturers of these goods unless a) the manufacturer handles their own exporting and b) their business depends heavily on exports. The first is generally not true of most of these LEGO knock-off manufacturers, and with the Asian toy market growing as fast as it is, I'm not 100% convinced that the second applies to them, either. But customs agencies can still be a powerful force against importers who attempt to sell counterfeit goods overseas.
My hope is that with a factory on Chinese soil and a new growing market of official LEGO products in that market TLG will be able to take down Lepin at the source. This article now has me believing it might be possible.
Now that's an interesting concept. I know there are services over here where you can rent current toys for a certain amount of time, but I have not yet seen a service that rents out long EOL'ed Lego sets like Cafe Corner, Green Grocer, Millenium Falcon, Taj Mahal etc. Not that I would imagine anyone would rent out such expensive sets anyway. Common items, sure, but not highly sought after stuff like that which commands thousands of dollars each on the collectors market.
Similar here. My reason (other than pure curiosity) for buying my first Lepin set at all (Green Grocer) was that I always liked that set, but was in my "dark ages" when it was around for purchase from Lego. And by now it commands prices on the aftermarket that are just ridiculous for what you get. I could afford to pay that kind of money for an original, but it just seems like a total waste. I mean, for the price of ONE original MISB Green Grocer on the aftermarket I can buy the entire current range of available modulars including AS, and still have a lot of money left for other sets. Think about that for a moment and then understand why I call the aftermarket prices ridiculous.
Imho one also can't compare the situation to that of the art market. Why? There is only one original Mona Lisa (ok, some argue there are actually two or three, but let's not get into that discussion), hence the value of that piece of art. Same with the Last Supper, or any other piece of original art.
Lego sets otoh are mass produced items, even long EOL'ed sets like GG etc. They are no pieces of art worth thousands of dollars. One might even argue (and I certainly would, after having built both the Lepin GG as well as orignal Lego modulars of later years) that when it comes to value for money (and design quality and building techniques), current Modulars are far better than the older ones. Actually, my main reason for liking GG so much (as well as HH) is the abundant use of sand-green parts, one of my favorite Lego colours.
And as for the completionist argument, I personally am certainly no completionist collector. Otherwise I would have bought all the other retired Modulars from Lepin as well. Hell, I didn't even buy the PS before it was retired last year, nor do I intend to buy it in the future.
Of course, the argument "I only buy EOL'ed" can be a slippery slope, as eggshen said, but at least for me personally, it means that I would only consider Lepin for sets that were long EOL'ed before Lepin produced them. Then again, I am not in the market for any more Lepin sets anyway, because by now I have the three EOL'ed sets that interested me the most in the first place (GG, TH and HH). There is only one other long EOL'ed set that would really interest me as a MISB set, and I am absolutely certain that Lepin will never produce it, and that is 926 (or 493 in the US) Command Centre ;-)
My situation exactly.