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LEGO fight Against Chinese counterfeit LEGO
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Comments
Would you happen to be a member of a certain Toyota forum?
Different people, different experiences. Lego customer service is not always excellent. Often, yes, but not all the time. Service levels at Lego stores have ranged from outstanding to almost abysmal (like our last experience there). So no, I don't feel that their articles are priced fairly anymore.
And about the varying prices across the globe and the relative size of the markets. I still believe that US prices are in general so much cheaper* because it is the largest market for Lego and they want to keep it that way. Competition in the US must be much tougher than over here.
* don't start with "VAT is not included" - sure it's not, but your VAT rates range from non-existant in some states to bordering on laughable. What, 6%, 8%, 10%? If Wikipedia is anything to go by, 41 out of 50 states have a total sales tax (state plus local county or city taxes) of less than 10%, the highest total of all being 13.5% in some areas in Alabama. No other region even anywhere near it.
Come over here and behold VAT rates averaging about 20%, some going as high as 27%
Now take that example of 75152 mentioned before: 29.99 USD plus at max 13.5% is still only about 30 Euro. So even with VAT included the surcharge in Germany is more than 30%, or 49% in Belgium or the Netherlands.
Still don't understand why we are getting more and more annoyed over here? Ever more people I talk to are thinking about buying Lepin sets on a regular basis, and even though I still stick to buying the original when it comes to non-EOL sets, I can understand those who don't any longer. And if we in Europe are beginning to see Lepin as a viable alternative, then the Asian market is lost already for sure.
That said, I think you're right we on this side of the Atlantic are getting screwed on value just because we can. Whether that's because the LEGO market is more ingrained in European culture I'm not sure but whatever the basis it leaves a potential market for cheaper bricks that can be exploited.
It seems to me that LEPIN sets are sold to the west at a little under 50% of the RRP with shipping and customs etc. although it varies with some sets much cheaper. Presumably its much cheaper when bought locally too.
For example all the modulars I guess work out about £60 after some customs charges. Realistically how many people will buy a LEPIN Brick Bank at £60 rather than a genuine LEGO set at £120? I'm guessing not many. But what about a Cafe Corner or Green Grocer for £60 when a used one is about £700 and a MISB double that? Or an emerald night for £50 when a used one is £200+ and a new one £300+?
At those levels the risk of buying a LEPIN could be seen as much more worthwhile. The retired sets provide an attractive entry into the world of fake LEGO, an entry into the LEPIN market. If that experience is good then all of a sudden those new sets that are half price become much more appealing, even if you would never have considered them before.
TLG can probably do very little about preventing fake LEGO in the asian market, LEPIN have shown that they can produce a massive range of parts, quickly, cheaply and seemingly at high quality. If LEGO shut them down another will spring up and another and another. TLG could lower their prices in the asian market to counter it, but risk items being shipped to the west or western customers finding out the price difference and being annoyed.
What they could do is start re-releasing their old sets at current RRP. That would kill the entry to market for the vast majority of non-asian customer and a chunk of the asian customers (probably those that would likely be LEGO customers anyway). They might not make much money from the sales, indeed they'd almost certainly make less money than if they used that production capacity on new lines, and they'd probably also loose money from their existing line with reduced sales from investors and those that buy their kids a death star knowing that unlike 90% of toys it will be worth as much as they paid for it in 5 or 10 years time.
But overall I think that's a small price for LEGO to pay. It seems to me that LEPIN is a game changer. We've had reasonable quality fake minifigures for some time. But that isn't LEGO's core business and the feeling was always that recreating a handful of minifigure parts was one thing, but recreating an entire set something entirely different and way out of reach for the manufacturers. LEPIN has shown that's not the case, not only can they make entire sets they can make the largest LEGO sets with 1000s of pieces. They can roll them out quicker than LEGO and can mix system and technic sets. Nothing is off limits. LEGO may be able to shut down LEPIN but even if they do another will come along in their place.
It is well-established that, in general terms, producing compatible construction kits is acceptable. TLG maybe able to snipe at the edges, in terms of going after them for particular pieces, or box design, or even because they supply identical sets to LEGO sets, past or present, but not when it comes to the core product. And that's only if LEPIN can't manage to side-step any action by TLG.
LEPIN have brought us two things. The one we all talk about, is that they copy coveted LEGO products. The one that we don't is that there is now a new kid on the block that can do exactly what TLG do. In fact, there are others, but we only talk about LEPIN. All that LEPIN lack are designs of their own - and that's hardly rocket science, especially when you consider the many MOCs that are to be found online - and they're only the tip of an iceberg.
Copying LEGO sets has brought LEPIN notoriety, but it's also a distraction. That distraction could even be deliberate, but they have gone from being totally unknown to a competitor and we've barely noticed because we're so outraged by those copies. Taking away the copies of EOLed sets doesn't actually benefit anyone (yes, I know they're not all EOLed), but what happens when you do? Suddenly LEPIN would be untouchable because they wouldn't be doing anything wrong, in anybody's eyes - but they'd still be there.
As for the rest, I think you're wrong. There are plenty of brick toy companies producing their own stuff, its generally not very good and without the marketing that sits behind LEGO has almost no impact and outside of the asian market probably has little impact on potential LEGO sales. Even a relatively big player like MegaBloks can largely be ignored with only their IP licences bringing any interest. Stop Lepin and anyone else copying LEGO's designs and they just become another brick company making BOLOCs sets bought only by people who wouldn't otherwise buy LEGO. LEPIN appear to have got the brick quality thing down, but thats only part of the problem. Making designs that people want is just as big if not bigger.
I am not confusing the issue. It's just that as a customer I don't have to care about what TLG gets. It's what the customer has to pay what counts to him. And from that viewpoint, we over here get screwed big time, as the numbers in the example show quite clearly.
My point was that TLG shouldn't have to wonder why Lepin is rising so fast in popularity.
Lepin could jump at all the rejected Lego Ideas sets, preferably those that got rejected because of their size. Imagine for example a Lepin Nautilus or one of the large number of proposed Modulars. Library, Museum, Train Station, Construction Site to name but a few. Lots of great designs there. As Lepin seems very capable (and willing) to produce and market sets of that size, this could be a way into legality that I am sure many AFOLs would love to support.
I very much doubt that would happen and, to me, that would be worse than stealing the designs of a multi-billion euro company...
You mean ALL's (adult Lepin Lovers), those people aren't AFOL's perse who want to support such things.
And I am no ALL!
I posted it on the other thread too, but here is some recent data for Cafe Corner over the past 2-3 months judging by the feedback dates.
55 orders, 19 orders, 136 orders, 74 orders, (--- mini sets), 124 orders, ...
And this is only for the sellers where they still have stock. Once their stock goes, they set up other listings.
These could well be selling faster than when Lego was selling the CC. I doubt anyone knows how many lego sold over the few years it was available. But the Lepin seems to be doing probably at least 200-400 a month on aliexpress alone.
Yes, they need designs. However, if they had a good design, it's now likely to sell - which isn't true of most other clones. Just as there are people who will happily buy figures that TLG don't produce, I think people would reasonably happy to buy a LEPIN set of some iconic building for which there isn't, and hasn't ever been, a LEGO set.
I don't see designs to be a problem. TLG isn't that good at it. They might be better than most of us could produce, or ring just the right bells, but there are still huge numbers of much better MOCs to be had (and with LEPIN's form, that might be all there is to it!) It's also a lot easier when your product is cheaper to produce because the price-points aren't so sensitive.
They'd be in good company then - that's an accusation that's been levelled at TLG!
Somebody could be both. If your hobby is simply building, there's no logical reason why the brand has to be important.
On a serious note, if/when Lepin's brick quality (clutch power and colour etc.) matches that of Lego, and the bricks are identical (apart from the Lego lettering on top of the studs), from a builder's perspective, they are just interchangeable elements. Then what remains is a personal preference and stance. Are you a brand purist, OR are you a 'generalist' who is only concerned about uniformity and quality of the bricks to build with. Or how much of a purist are you, as I suppose, there remain gradations. Is it OK for you to have your Lego minifigs carry and wear helmets and other props from a company such a Brickforge, or do you toss in Megablocks bricks etc. when building a MOC. I usually get the impression that the former is OK with some people/AFOL's on this forum, but the latter is not with most brickset members. Or am I mistaken in that impression?
@TheBigLegoski: the way things are going, in some countries the L in AFOL could soon be standing for Lepin, not Lego ;-)
I sure am an AFOL but I am also an AWAIIRPBBS (Adult with an interest in reasonably priced building block sets)
;-)
And as for your question: Lepin bricks for the most part already are absolutely on par with Lego. Colour (especially colour consistency!), clutch power, look and feel, spot on.
Take the problems I had with my two Lepin sets: a missing bag of parts (actually, a wrong one as a duplicate instead of the correct one), and several scratched bits and pieces, obviously from handling by the seller and transport in a large plastic bag. Nothing quality-wise I had not experienced with Lego also.
Understandable! Being interested in reasonably priced sets. Who isn't? I would think.
This is what I wrote earlier here:
http://brickset.com/article/23648/the-lego-group-takes-action-against-clone-brand-lepin#comments
I'll take the liberty to post it again on the forum, actually meant for discussing such things.
"Lego is not a luxury brand, and if it has become a luxury brand in the eyes of many people, TLG may want to rethink if that is how they want to be perceived (by first and foremost their target audience: children and their parents etc. who ultimately are the ones paying for the toys). Lego is a premium toy brand (which I like!) that also embodies a certain set of values. TLG's slogan is 'only the best is good enough', and that comes at a price. Does it mean Lego sets ought to be priced as it is, perhaps TLG needs to re-evaluate whether or not they may be pricing themselves out of the market. TLG as a commercial enterprise exists because it is profitable, however the founders as well as the present people in charge of the Toy company also want(ed) to make toys that are not only are fun and creative, but are also affordable to most families and ultimately the children playing with them (and adults too who once decades ago as children grew up with Lego and are now buying it not only for their (grand)children but for themselves too), and not just the happy few. "
I am not sure, but I believe it was you (AustinPowers) earlier somewhere on this thread, that wrote that there is already a 'Lepin Fan - LUG' community in Germany. That is I think a telltale sign, that Lepin is going to be a contender, and serious thread to Lego. Especially given the fact that (generalizing here) Germans are known for their appreciation of and dedication to manufacturing high-end quality products themselves. So I think reasonably save to say we are probably not talking about the equivalent of a bunch pony sniffing niche dwelling fetishists. I hate to see Lego loose, and I want Lego to be and stay around, because it is a wonderful product and toy, however their retail prices are often inflated beyond what is reasonable here in Europe, and that is me trying to be diplomatic in how to phrase it.
My answer would likely be yes, IF it was a set I was interested in, and IF, I felt the designer was getting compensated. For example, I think ORIONPAX is one of the most ingenious, talented builders I have ever seen. I have bought many of his 'original creations' and I view them as ART. There are other builders on here, like Vitroleum, who are obviously brilliant. In the case of some, I know for a fact they have tried to get hired by LEGO, but LEGO to this point has not hired them. Why would a company like LEPIN not go after these types of designers and then 'legitimize' their business.
Plus at my heart I would always support the 'little guy' who is trying to build a business, over a large company. But not if that individual is doing illegal things to try to build his business.
Anyhow, IF the above mentioned happened, I would personally have two dilemmas. I am not happy with how Lepin started. And I would worry mixing in Lepin would devalue my extensive, and valuable LEGO collection. So I suppose I would have to keep them separate.
I fortunately (as was pointed out) can afford LEGO. I am willing to pay for it. However I am at heart a builder. I have a large LEGO layout. Its intriguing to be able to build large creations for less. I'll probably never buy LEPIN, but it would be interesting to see what some incredibly talented individuals who may not be able to afford enough LEGO brick, could accomplish with a similar but less expensive alternative.....
There are a lot of fans of these types of build that would not even contemplate trying to Bricklink them due to cost, but would probably jump at the chance if the work was already done and it didn't cost a fortune.
Interestingly, much the same could be said about pure LEGO sets, as many elements have slightly different versions. People will also BrickLink sets without always giving too much thought to the matter, yet we're discussing the importance of a mere smudge on the studs?
If LEPIN had a long-term plan, that would actually make a excellent "Phase 2".
"You are a kid playing (playing, no less!) with a children's toy." "You are an AFOL." Which do you prefer?
And you are also right in your assumptions about the Germans as customers. I agree also that the fact that there even exists such a forum is a telltale sign.
In a pro-Lepin forum, AFOL could well be used as a term of derision, because a hardcore ALL would consider Lepin to be their preference over LEGO, and use the term AFOL to make fun of people who prefer LEGO. Computer operating systems and sports teams have their own fans, and people use labels interchangeably as a badge of honor or shame, depending on who is using the label and who it is applied to. Labels just make it easy to lump together groups. My uncle is proud to be a "Dallas Cowboys fan", and sometimes when he does something stupid I've heard my aunt use that as an excuse for whatever he did.
And about the second point, being able to pay for Lego. I think there has to be made a clear distinction when it comes to Lepin sets - those that copy EOL sets and those that copy current sets.
Those people I know personally or from that German Lepin forum can definitely afford Lego, and when it comes to current sets, they still prefer to buy the original. But like me, when it comes to EOL sets they missed the first time around, these people are sensible enough to not want to spend outrageous amounts of money on some plastic bricks that some resellers think should be worth a fortune. Especially the Lepin Millenium Falcon is selling like hotcakes currently. Small wonder when you think that it costs less than 190 Euro delivered!
The problem Lego will have with Lepin when it comes to current sets will be mainly the Asian market, plus perhaps with some of the high-end D2C sets like Disney Castle, GBHQ or the like. I don't think any sane person in Europe would buy a sub 100 Euro Lego set from Lepin, when they can get an original for almost the same amount. The price difference is only really getting interesting in very expensive sets, and as has been said before, especially on those rare and much hyped EOL exclusives like the old Modulars, the old UCS Star Wars sets, or highlights like the Haunted House, Taj Mahal, Grand Carousel, Emerald Knight, Imperial Flagship and the like.
My bad!
A badge they may have now, yes (but only if they choose to wear it as a 'nom de guerre', otherwise it is just someone else labelling them). An air of respectability? No! (Though even that is all in the eye of the beholder too) We need not chuck such matters onto one pile, but can distinguish them as being separate issues.
(Wishing Pitfall69 now will come up with some MEME in southpark style incorporating "we don't take kindly to ALL's" with a picture of a bunch of those pissed and pissed off people at the local bar.)
You call the Lego branding on all the studs of all the Lego elements 'a mere smudge'!?
:-/ ;-P
Well one builder isn't the next, but it is still A builder's perspective. And yes, some AFOL's are so discerning, that they may have discussions on what brick comes from which mould, etc. all by studying all the tiny numbers, and lettering on the inside of the bricks themselves, maybe even preferring certain bricks over over others of the same colour and shape, because of the numbers inside that indicate from which mould they are. With some people somehow claiming to know (perhaps rightly) from what production run, date, batch, factory, country etc. those bricks are, and therefore perhaps being of superior or inferior quality compared to other 'identical' Lego elements with different ID markings.
Perhaps the writers of the Big Bang Theory could cooperate that into an episode, with Sheldon and the others arguing about this.
----------
ps.
Sorry about all my typo's!
Loose instead lose
their instead of there and the other way round
thread instead of threat (LOL & total facepalm)
omitting words such as: of, it is, etc.
and bladibladibla yada yada yada....
I know more typo's will follow where ever I tread on these threads. But I will abide ; )
Both Cafe Corner and Brick Bank are currently available. At a price. If you're a multi-billionaire, you can get one of your flunkies to go out and buy and mint copy original of either without batting an eyelid. If you're not in the top 10%, you probably won't buy either, but both LEPIN sets still might be affordable.
You're only able to have the option of trying to make a distinction because you are in particular place in that 10%. By that, I mean you're not at the very, very top; you're not a multi-billionarie that doesn't bother with such triffles. You're in a place where paying
€200 for a set doesn't bother you, but €2000 does. (It's not actually about whether it's affordable - not quite.) The difference between EOLed and current sets creates a gap in the pricing differential that makes it easy to pick that as a dividing line, but people's financial positions are on a continual varying scale, so what seems appropriate to you won't be seen in the same way by another buyer - and, as I said, it's the buyer's view that counts.
But what would be the opinion of those in a different social strata who live on the other side of town? €200 for them might well be as outrageous as €2000 is for you. Nobody can draw a line for somebody else.
Me? I don't really know; I've never thought about. But, logically, that's all it is. It used to make a difference because it distinguished between a load of dingo's kidneys and a good product. LEPIN muddies those waters.
People are becoming less brand conscious. When they realise that a tin of baked beans comes from the same factory whether it is a well-known brand or a supermarket own-label, they realise that quality isn't an issue. They've always known, but there seems to be a drive for TV programs that "show the true story". That gives consumers confidence, and it comes down to the more solid issues of price and taste, which can work either way. In the same way, if they are confident of LEPIN's quality, then it will come down to the available designs and the price. Currently, the designs are the same, so the price is the important factor - and a winning one.
The "smudge" will be seen for what it is. Yes, it may indicate a certain quality, but it's no longer the only way of getting it. Some people will bother; some people will not.
Can I pass up a Gordon Shumway reference?
(You think I'm kidding?)
Honest, guv.
And you still don't believe me!
Still this doesn't look half as daft as people playing curling. Another 'sport' made popular by the British (the Scottish to be more exact). Yes, the British definitely do so excel at fun and games. You are a wonderful people, most amusing, and sometimes a bit bemusing.
ps.
Could be worse though, you could be Dutch.
For those who haven't seen that Nebulon B MOC, have a quick google. He even provides very Lego-ish instructions and it is an amazing build. Massive too and something that Lepins cheaper blocks would make possible for many (who have room for it!)
WAAAAANT!
While we are on the subject; if you want to condemn LEGO for what they did a long time ago, maybe we should continue with ither famous people who stole ideas from other people
Steve Jobs stole Xerox's user interface
Marconi stole the idea for a radio from Tesla
Bell stole his idea for motion pictures and maybe you saw the movie about how intermittent wipers were stolen by Ford and Chrysler. I am sure you have intermittent wipers on your vehicle, maybe you should wag your finger at your wipers and condemn to hell then rip them from your windshield.
http://cafe.naver.com/thebays/1797
(Hope ya'll can read Korean!)