We're bringing back the Monorail - 3D printed!

Aanchir · September 2016

CCC said:

Aanchir said:

A lot of LEGO fans probably feel better about supporting their fellow LEGO fans than about supporting LEGO competitors.

Although both do what they do for the same reason - to make money out of selling them. I don't think the motivation is to do it for "the community" as much as to do it for profit. The prices are still fairly high for these reproductions. It is also taking away from another set of lego fans - the ones that are trying to sell the genuine items.

My post that you quoted isn't about the motivations of the people making custom parts, but rather the motivations of the people buying them. Customizers like BrickForge, BrickArms, EclipseGrafx, etc. are generally created by AFOLs. Of course they do it intending to make a profit, but even so, a lot of their fellow AFOLs like to help support their endeavors. By comparison, LEGO competitors like Mega Bloks, Kre-O, Lepin, or Decool don't tend to have that same personal connection with the AFOL community, or at least, they aren't known for it.

I'm not saying making a distinction between customizers and clone brands is entirely rational, but even so, it's certainly not rational to act as if there are NO differences between a customizer like BrickForge and a clone brand like Mega Bloks, just because they're both in it for profit and they're both "not real LEGO". It shouldn't be surprising that some people would rather do business with fellow LEGO fans than the LEGO Group's more direct rivals.

I also wasn't speaking about these monorail segments or the people making them specifically, but rather about customizers in general. I hadn't even looked at what these monorail parts cost, and for that matter I have no idea what they SHOULD cost. 3D printing costs can vary depending on whether you print the parts yourself or hire it out to an external company like Shapeways, and also there's economies of scale to consider.

Pitfall69 · September 2016

@davee123 , Without even considering track, how much would it cost to purchase everything you need for the system to fully function (motor, battery pack, cords etc.)?

davee123 · September 2016

Pitfall69 said:

@davee123 , Without even considering track, how much would it cost to purchase everything you need for the system to fully function (motor, battery pack, cords etc.)?

Well, going based on recent BL purchase averages, and ignoring track and stanchions, as well as the bricks needed to build "something" on the plain base, I get about $75 or so. (You could even run with a single base, rather than 2, and cut out about $15 or so, but I would assume most people would want both)

Roughly:
$41.00 - motor
$2.50 - battery box
$3.50 - base (x2)
$10.50 - bogies (x2)
$3.00 - wire

Throw in a circle of track and 2 start/stops for an extra $20 or so total (curves are much cheaper), and it'd be around $95, maybe? So, figure $100 all told to make something really basic?

DaveE

Pitfall69 · September 2016

mathew · September 2016

Honestly, I would tell most people not to invest in the Monorail System. The parts are going to only get more and more expensive. Eventually working motors will become scarce. The motors are a sealed component and will be difficult to reproduce.

With that said, you either get the monorail or you don't. It's fun but nostalgia for retro-futurism is probably what drives the AFOL aftermarket. And If you've been in this hobby for awhile now and you haven't been bitten by the monorail bug then you're probably just not cool enough ; )

Powderfinger · September 2016

So, I may have an opportunity to buy 6991 and 6921 for roughly $200, a no-brainer?

cheshirecat · September 2016

If the motor work then yes, even without the motor then probalby (they can be picked up reasonably cheap if you're willing to wait for a decent deal). #6991 doesn't get the recognition of #6990 but is actually the better set in terms of both track and play features, but without the better styling of Futuron. With the addition of #6921 you've got a nice track layout.

CCC · September 2016

mathew said:

CCC said:

natro220 said:

If your track proves popular in the community, no doubt genuine track will drop in price as it won't be as rare and scarce, assuming the quality of your track is on par. You may need to drop your price at that point. If genuine track drops to $12 a segment, due to competing with your product...do you have a plan in place? Will it still be viable to create new track at that price, if you have to drop to, say $6-8?

If it sells at $12 I imagine others will start printing their own and selling at $10 and so on. Once someone finds a market others will copy and undercut.

Yep, and your point is?

That there is probably plenty of room for price reductions, that the first faker / cloner is often more in it for the money than for "the good of the community" that is touted as their reason for doing it. "Community driven" means "customer driven". Of course, there's nothing wrong with it, it is the same motivation behind reselling.

They are taking away business from genuine lego part sellers though so of course there will be a backlash against them pointing out for example the apparently poor quality of the finish, the lack of long term quality testing, lack of resale value, etc that buying genuine lego parts gives.

datsunrobbie · September 2016

CCC said:

mathew said:

CCC said:

natro220 said:

If your track proves popular in the community, no doubt genuine track will drop in price as it won't be as rare and scarce, assuming the quality of your track is on par. You may need to drop your price at that point. If genuine track drops to $12 a segment, due to competing with your product...do you have a plan in place? Will it still be viable to create new track at that price, if you have to drop to, say $6-8?

If it sells at $12 I imagine others will start printing their own and selling at $10 and so on. Once someone finds a market others will copy and undercut.

Yep, and your point is?

That there is probably plenty of room for price reductions, that the first faker / cloner is often more in it for the money than for "the good of the community" that is touted as their reason for doing it. "Community driven" means "customer driven". Of course, there's nothing wrong with it, it is the same motivation behind reselling.

They are taking away business from genuine lego part sellers though so of course there will be a backlash against them pointing out for example the apparently poor quality of the finish, the lack of long term quality testing, lack of resale value, etc that buying genuine lego parts gives.

I've seen similar arguments made in reference to makers of aftermarket parts for classic cars. Datsun made some really nice roadsters from 1967 thru 1970. A lot of parts have been out of production for decades, so originals are often hard to come by. The few people who have stock of original parts for sale have to contend with fans who make reproduction parts. Even in a tiny market like Datsun roadster parts, there is room for both. Some folks insist on only using original OEM parts, while others will use aftermarket reproductions, or even swap in parts from other vehicles that meet their needs.

Lowa · September 2016

I wanted to respond about some of the comments on quality. Yes, they are 3D printed and the surface quality is not like that of your genuine LEGO rails. If you zoom in, you will see an uneven surface, especially at the ends. But normally you’re not looking from that close to your monorail layout. As MRN Bricks points out in his video (from the first post), from a few feet away you can no longer tell the difference. Look at his video thumbnail that shows the rail from a distance, would you have been able to tell it was 3D printed if you didn’t know ?

About the sound, there is indeed a strange noise at 4:39 when it goes onto the first 3D printed track. I have no idea what that is, but it doesn’t sound like the track to me. Note that at 4 :42 when the train goes over the second 3D printed track you don’t have that sound. When the train comes back at 5:08 you don’t hear that sound either. At 5:14 MRN Bricks confirms that ‘there is no change in the tone or anything’. There is a discussion on EuroBricks on the sound as well, there another customer confirms that he cannot hear a difference.

I just want to be open and honest so people know what they get: If you want a rail that looks perfect from close by, then stick to second hand LEGO rails. However, if you’re looking for a lower price alternative that blends in from a distance and works well; these rails are a good option. That’s MRN Bricks message as well.

Here is a mix of 4DBrix and original tracks

You can see it on our video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHvohuIySPQ

Lowa · September 2016

Istokg said:

Very interesting.... this is just the tip of the iceberg for 3D image parts. As the price comes down, I can imagine a LOT more 3D parts will be created, making for quite a secondary market. Such as the pricey Cypress Tree....
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogPG.asp?P=3778&colorID=6

People can finally build this.... ;-)

Hi Istokg,

Interesting example! However, I don’t think it’s possible to 3D print this at a completive price at this point. You need to both consider the cost of the initial print and post processing (removing the support structures for example). So it doesn’t make sense to 3D print it at this point, but I’m sure one day it will be…

davee123 · September 2016

Powderfinger said:

So, I may have an opportunity to buy 6991 and 6921 for roughly $200, a no-brainer?

Pretty much! As long as they're not totally trashed, the track alone is worth $300 from those sets, let alone the monorail motor, raised baseplates, minifigs, and other bricks.

Pitfall69 said:

Yeah, I passed on monorail for a LONG time, figuring I was better off NOT having any. But then I received 6990 as a gift in 2005, and I was hooked. I managed to stop buying more when I finally got more track than you'd own if you bought 1 of each monorail set. ... But I still have to restrain myself when buying on BrickLink from a store that has any in stock!

As for the 4DBrix versions, I have to say I'm more intrigued by the non-standard elements like the ramp extenders, and possibilities for other designs that LEGO won't ever make. I'd consider wider curve radius track and 45-degree angle track, too. But the normal stuff I've got enough of, myself.

Of course, there's also the REALLY cool stuff like the self-correcting cross-track. Obviously, that's way out of scope, since it requires some internal mechanics, but I might go for that, too. And I could imagine other wacky things like a large-scale roundhouse turntable for switching tracks (but that'd be huge). Or a 3-way switch rather than just 2-way, or a 2-way switch with both sides curved, rather than one straight and one curved.

Oh, or maybe a "track ender" piece that ends the track more gracefully? You could even have a non-toothed rail in the center, where the motor could NOT grip, so that it DEFINITELY, ABSOLUTELY, COULD NOT JUMP OFF THE END OF THE RAIL (because that's definitely a thing). That doesn't need mechanics, so it's probably feasible (although it would be handy if you had a connection point to attach the "stopper" mechanism that LEGO already has).

Ok, I'll stop now.

DaveE

mathew · September 2016

Here's a neat video showing the Town Square tram in a modified monorail setup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVDpdJEBiaM

Lowa · September 2016

davee123 said:

As for the 4DBrix versions, I have to say I'm more intrigued by the non-standard elements like the ramp extenders, and possibilities for other designs that LEGO won't ever make.

Did you see our Extension Car to extend the monorail train?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO1WaAa4KeE

Lowa · September 2016

davee123 said:

Of course, there's also the REALLY cool stuff like the self-correcting cross-track. Obviously, that's way out of scope, since it requires some internal mechanics, but I might go for that, too. And I could imagine other wacky things like a large-scale roundhouse turntable for switching tracks (but that'd be huge). Or a 3-way switch rather than just 2-way, or a 2-way switch with both sides curved, rather than one straight and one curved.

Oh, or maybe a "track ender" piece that ends the track more gracefully? You could even have a non-toothed rail in the center, where the motor could NOT grip, so that it DEFINITELY, ABSOLUTELY, COULD NOT JUMP OFF THE END OF THE RAIL (because that's definitely a thing). That doesn't need mechanics, so it's probably feasible (although it would be handy if you had a connection point to attach the "stopper" mechanism that LEGO already has).

Thanks for your input, it helps us with prioritizing! Actually, you'd be surprised of what we can do with 3D printing! Most of what we are working on have an internal mechanism - you can check our train track switch motor on our website for example...

davee123 · September 2016

Lowa said:Did you see our Extension Car to extend the monorail train?

Cool! I've never tried to make an extended car using a pure LEGO solution-- for some reason I think I've seen it done before? ... But I don't recall for sure. If it's not possible with the existing stuff, that'd be a good alternative.

Actually, what might also be interesting (while I'm in brainstorming mode) might be a "short" version of the monorail base. I know I've occasionally wanted to make a shorter car, and have only used a single side for a smaller vehicle.

DaveE

MattDawson · September 2016

davee123 said:
Cool! I've never tried to make an extended car using a pure LEGO solution-- for some reason I think I've seen it done before? ... But I don't recall for sure. If it's not possible with the existing stuff, that'd be a good alternative.

I saw someone use two regular monorail bases, and then using a ball socket connection for the middle/rear car. Looked a little weird though, but it was a100% official solution.

davee123 · September 2016

davee123 said:

[...] 45-degree angle track, too. [...]

Ok, just to be a little bit clearer about what I mean by "45-degree angle track" as opposed to "45-degree angle curves", I mean something like this:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5015319/uploads/editor/vt/o00l8nad92z3.png

So, they've got the funny ends for connecting to the existing half-curves and switches, but they can be inserted and still line up on the grid.

DaveE

Paperballpark · September 2016

In my experience of displaying at shows, the harshest critics are generally other AFOLs, not the public.

I get mocked by some AFOLs for running ME-Models track, which looks pretty damn perfect. Goodness knows how much I'd get mocked for using 3D-printed monorail track which looks, shall we say, less than perfect close up.

Oh and on the 'purist' debate, I'm of the opinion that if it fills a niche and Lego have never made it, I'm willing to give it a shot - for example ME Models' wide radius track, and Big Ben Bricks' XL train driver wheels.

If Lego make it, then it's a clone, and I won't use it.

In terms of this monorail track, that's a bit more of a grey area. I'm not into monorail, but if I was, I'd probably buy third-party track if it was injection-molded and the quality was good, but only because I know that Lego will never ever produce those specific elements again, and don't produce any alternatives either. The quality of 3D printed stuff is just too low for my liking though.

Russell844 · September 2016

Members of my LUG are excited to try samples of this track at our big holiday show, so no ridicule here. :)

mathew · September 2016

A lot of nitpicking here from people who don't even own a monorail set. For being 3D printed I think the quality is good and will get better as technology improves. Like I said I think the people who will be most interested are those that put together large displays at conventions.

cheshirecat · September 2016

True especially for track at the back of the display, hidden or in tunnels.

madforLEGO · September 2016

Paperballpark said:

In my experience of displaying at shows, the harshest critics are generally other AFOLs, not the public.

I get mocked by some AFOLs for running ME-Models track, which looks pretty damn perfect. Goodness knows how much I'd get mocked for using 3D-printed monorail track which looks, shall we say, less than perfect close up.

Oh and on the 'purist' debate, I'm of the opinion that if it fills a niche and Lego have never made it, I'm willing to give it a shot - for example ME Models' wide radius track, and Big Ben Bricks' XL train driver wheels.

If Lego make it, then it's a clone, and I won't use it.

In terms of this monorail track, that's a bit more of a grey area. I'm not into monorail, but if I was, I'd probably buy third-party track if it was injection-molded and the quality was good, but only because I know that Lego will never ever produce those specific elements again, and don't produce any alternatives either. The quality of 3D printed stuff is just too low for my liking though.

I would give someone a hard time that paid for ME train track that is standard to what LEGO put out, as if I recall the same tracks are about the same in price, in which case I would buy LEGO all day. NOW if you are using non standard designs that only ME has (like I think the wider radius curves) and it helps with your layout? I can see it.

datsunrobbie · September 2016

If LEGO is no longer producing the parts and another company is making them legally, and of equal quality, I'd buy whichever is less expensive, just like when I buy Datsun parts. Sometimes the reproduction parts are actually made better than the originals, or are just as good for a lot less money. All things being equal, I'd stick with OEM parts. If there are differences in quality and/or price then each case becomes unique. Just as an example, if I only need one piece of track and OEM costs an extra 10 cents, I'd probably buy OEM. But if I need 1000 of them those dimes add up, and aftermarket has to be seriously considered - IF the aftermarket parts are as good as the originals.

MattDawson · September 2016

2 standard straights, a motor cover and 2 extension cars ordered and have been shipped - I'll add my thoughts on it when they arrive.

Russell844 · September 2016

I just got our sample pack and they look great. I can't wait to try them on our holiday layout.

Lowa · September 2016

Russell844 said:

I just got our sample pack and they look great. I can't wait to try them on our holiday layout.

Thanks! We can't wait to see it as well

Lowa · September 2016

We are now finishing the last tweaks to the Monorail 90degree Cross Track and I could not resist sharing it - let me know what you think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZSdQ3ezeo

SprinkleOtter · September 2016

Looking good!
Any plans to make standalone motors and such? I would love for them to become commonplace enough to be used at Brickfair competitions.

davee123 · September 2016

Lowa said:

We are now finishing the last tweaks to the Monorail 90degree Cross Track and I could not resist sharing it - let me know what you think

Looks interesting-- Any plans to make it purely mechanical, like LEGO's switch tracks? (I'd obviously root for that!) Can the "manual" operation be triggered by LEGO axles/motors/etc?

DaveE

Paperballpark · September 2016

madforLEGO said:

I would give someone a hard time that paid for ME train track that is standard to what LEGO put out, as if I recall the same tracks are about the same in price, in which case I would buy LEGO all day. NOW if you are using non standard designs that only ME has (like I think the wider radius curves) and it helps with your layout? I can see it.

The only track that ME-Models make which is the same as what LEGO make is the standard straight, and TBH the LEGO track is cheaper. Plus I have tonnes of LEGO straight track (about 100m of it), so I have no need to get any from ME-Models.

I only use the ME-Models non-standard wide-radius track.

Lowa · September 2016

SprinkleOtter said:

Looking good!
Any plans to make standalone motors and such? I would love for them to become commonplace enough to be used at Brickfair competitions.

Yes ! The two motors you see in the video are in fact 'standalone'; they are connected to the switches with Technic connector pegs. You can connect them to any Technic brick or beam. The ones in the video are normal servos (angular positioning from 0 to 180 degrees), we also have continuous rotation servo prototypes.

Lowa · September 2016

davee123 said:

Lowa said:

We are now finishing the last tweaks to the Monorail 90degree Cross Track and I could not resist sharing it - let me know what you think

Looks interesting-- Any plans to make it purely mechanical, like LEGO's switch tracks? (I'd obviously root for that!) Can the "manual" operation be triggered by LEGO axles/motors/etc?

DaveE

It can be used in a purely mechanical way! You can connect a small axle and put a 2x2 round brick on it so you have a manual control similar to the original monoswitch control. With a set of Technic pegs you can also connect a PF M-motor, EV3 Medium motor, etc. I added a zoom-in of the connection below.

In the video I controlled the motors by tapping on a tile in our control software. For fully automated operation you need 'train detection sensors'. You can see a prototype of that on your website, but we haven't yet tried to combine everything to have a fully automated cross switch, but eventually that will be possible.

We aim to make all our designs fully compatible with LEGO and allowing multiple ways to control them: manually, motorized and computer controlled.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5015319/uploads/editor/0j/prp3fzkgtdxg.jpg

Paperballpark · September 2016

Paperballpark said:

The only track that ME-Models make which is the same as what LEGO make is the standard straight, and TBH the LEGO track is cheaper. Plus I have tonnes of LEGO straight track (about 100m of it), so I have no need to get any from ME-Models.

I should clarify here, that I mean I have about 100m of LEGO Train track, NOT 100m of monorail track...

SprinkleOtter · September 2016

Lowa said:

SprinkleOtter said:

Looking good!
Any plans to make standalone motors and such? I would love for them to become commonplace enough to be used at Brickfair competitions.

Yes ! The two motors you see in the video are in fact 'standalone'; they are connected to the switches with Technic connector pegs. You can connect them to any Technic brick or beam. The ones in the video are normal servos (angular positioning from 0 to 180 degrees), we also have continuous rotation servo prototypes.

Awesome!

If I can give you a piece of advise on how to win over a lot of motor fans- buy a Technic buggy motor, and match or exceed that in performance. It is the most sought-after technic motors.

MattDawson · October 2016

The parts have arrived in my local delivery office but needed the customs charge paying. £8.20, plus the £8 Royal Mail "handling fee".

Lowa · October 2016

Really sorry about that. Unfortunately we cannot control import duties. The 'handling fee' does not seem right though - we will check with our post office to see if there is anything we can do about this. We have sent parcels to Australia and Belgium and they did not have such fees...

TigerMoth · October 2016

Lowa said:

The 'handling fee' does not seem right though

Oh yes it is. The only way of avoiding it is to make sure that no other fees are due.

If the value is over £15, including shipping, then VAT is due - and the instant that happens, the handling fee is charged. If the item is a gift, the limit is higher at £34. If the value's over £135, then customs duty (plus VAT on it!) is also charged. The only vaguely-positive note is that the handling fee doesn't increase.

It doesn't help to send multiple packages either - they add the values together if they realise that's what's happened.

Lowa · October 2016

TigerMoth said:

The only way of avoiding it is to make sure that no other fees are due.

Thanks for the input. Is shipping tot he UK with e.g. DHL a better way in the end for all size orders (as they seem to process all customs and handling fees), even though it costs more to start with?

TigerMoth · October 2016

Lowa said:

Thanks for the input. Is shipping tot he UK with e.g. DHL a better way in the end for all size orders (as they seem to process all customs and handling fees), even though it costs more to start with?

All the other fees are the same - except for that handling fee charged by the carrier. What they charge for that is up to them.

It is sometimes possible for the sender to pay everything in advance, but that depends on the country and which carriers are involved in the trunk and local deliveries. Whether it's worth it still comes down to what those companies will charge. DHL in the US probably uses DHL in the UK, but it can get complicated working out who in one country uses who in another - and what each will charge for advance payment as opposed to payment on collection or delivery.

If a parcel arrives in the UK without the fees having already been paid, I believe DHL are actually even more expensive than Royal Mail.

I think most people don't bother and leave it to the buyer to sort it out, simply because there are so many different rates which for which you then have to include in their charges. And as it's no cheaper, some buyers like to play roulette with whether they actually get charged or not.

plasmodium · October 2016

Doesn't marking it as a gift help to a certain degree? It's been a while since I've been up to date with import fees!

TigerMoth · October 2016

plasmodium said:

Doesn't marking it as a gift help to a certain degree? It's been a while since I've been up to date with import fees!

As I said, it raises the threshold (from£15 to £34) - but it's not exactly legal (unless it really is a gift) and the sender signs a declaration that the details are correct. It's also your responsibility to check that declaration, and mis-declared items can be seized without recompense.

plasmodium · October 2016

TigerMoth said:

plasmodium said:

Doesn't marking it as a gift help to a certain degree? It's been a while since I've been up to date with import fees!

As I said, it raises the threshold (from£15 to £34) - but it's not exactly legal (unless it really is a gift) and the sender signs a declaration that the details are correct. It's also your responsibility to check that declaration, and mis-declared items can be seized without recompense.

I see you did mention that in your first comment now that I re-read it. Sorry about that! Should have read more closely...

MattDawson · October 2016

Package is now in my hand. I accidentally paid £16.20 instead of the actual £16.60 on the Royal Mail "Fee to pay" site so I went to collect it and pay the extra and the staff at the delivery office said it'd been marked as paid so they were going to deliver it anyway.

That's 40p saved, and the preciouses in my handsies...

MattDawson · October 2016

https://youtu.be/tbrcTsWk28g

SprinkleOtter · October 2016

^ Molding issue? ;)

MattDawson · October 2016

SprinkleOtter said:

^ Molding issue? ;)

I'm too used to saying it in referring to RTR models and kits. :P

Russell844 · October 2016

I showed off our sample kit at our LUG meeting today. There was much enthusiasm.

MattDawson · October 2016

Having hard a further investigation with the extension cars, I believe an easier solution to the bogie mounting issue would be to use a technic pin (like this one) with the protrusions removed one end (i.e. cutting flush with the middle) and using that for the cross bar, and by modifying the design of the cross brace with a hole so the modified pin could be glued in place from the underside, and adjusting the hole size slightly on the under frame to better suit the connection.

This would mean an increase in cost for the extra part but would mean the pegs would be much less likely to snap, like one of mine did last night. Alternatively, having the cross bar moulded rather than printed would resolve the issue, as a better design could be used using a Technic pin style connector, and be much more sturdy.

mathew · October 2016

You could also offer the monorail track in different colors. I'm thinking a dark blue like the "lost" Sea-Tron theme monorail would be a good start:

We're bringing back the Monorail - 3D printed!

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