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Speculation on the upcoming Death Star

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Comments

  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 9,263
    I know it's not the only component but considering that oil prices were way over $100 a barrel in 2008 and are currently less than $50 a barrel now it's hard to see how the price of plastic has risen so much. 

    Feel free to educate me though. Preferably in a constructive manner :)

    dougts said:
    I know it's not the only component but considering that oil prices were way over $100 a barrel in 2008 and are currently less than $50 a barrel now it's hard to see how the price of plastic has risen so much. 

    Feel free to educate me though. Preferably in a constructive manner :)
    ABS pelletes down 18% over the past 5 years, according to http://plasticker.de/preise/preise_monat_single_en.php

    current prices appear to be about a little about 1.21 euros per kg.  so a LEGO set like the Death Star contains about 8.5 euros ($9.50) worth of raw ABS pellets.  Of course LEGO probably buys ABS much cheaper than list price.

    But the plastic in LEGO sets has never been more than a negligible portion of the overall cost/price.  Anyone claiming increased raw plastic/oil prices are the reason LEGO set prices keep going up so much is either uninformed or lying.
    I'm sure LEGO hides behind that as costs for LEGO rising even if facts get in the way of that. I'm sure some of the shoddy QA is also due to manufacturing techniques using less plastic to try to get the most out of what they buy/use. Finally, regardless of what prices may have done in the relative short term, I'm guessing plastic, especially that made out of petroleum products is only going to rise as oil is a finite resource.
  • empireempire BC, CanadaMember Posts: 43
    $600 CAD, hell no.
    bobabricksflord
  • bobabricksbobabricks Vancouver, BC, CanadaMember Posts: 1,836
    empire said:
    $600 CAD, hell no.
    Exactly. The Americans paying $500 is one thing, it used to be almost 10c per piece for them. For us it's always been over priced, and now? Last time a remember a set being over $600 was UCS MF.
  • dspigeldspigel Seoul, KoreaMember Posts: 427
    empire said:
    $600 CAD, hell no.
    Exactly. The Americans paying $500 is one thing, it used to be almost 10c per piece for them. For us it's always been over priced, and now? Last time a remember a set being over $600 was UCS MF.
    Is there a way for you to buy from south of the boarder?
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    madforLEGO said:

    I'm sure LEGO hides behind that as costs for LEGO rising even if facts get in the way of that.
    TLG make all sorts of excuses for rising prices; most of the them don't stack up when you do sit down and do the calculation for the costs on a per-product basis.
    Finally, regardless of what prices may have done in the relative short term, I'm guessing plastic, especially that made out of petroleum products is only going to rise as oil is a finite resource.
    In whose lifetime? Oil is a finite resource. However, as we get smarter and technology improves, the amount of oil that we can sensibly access is effectively increasing.

    TLG also hope to be able to switch from using oil-based plastics by 2030. Presumably, it will be absolutely essential to do so, and therefore will justify further price increases.
    SumoLegocatwrangler
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 9,263
    TigerMoth said:
    madforLEGO said:

    I'm sure LEGO hides behind that as costs for LEGO rising even if facts get in the way of that.
    TLG make all sorts of excuses for rising prices; most of the them don't stack up when you do sit down and do the calculation for the costs on a per-product basis.
    Finally, regardless of what prices may have done in the relative short term, I'm guessing plastic, especially that made out of petroleum products is only going to rise as oil is a finite resource.
    In whose lifetime? Oil is a finite resource. However, as we get smarter and technology improves, the amount of oil that we can sensibly access is effectively increasing.

    TLG also hope to be able to switch from using oil-based plastics by 2030. Presumably, it will be absolutely essential to do so, and therefore will justify further price increases.
    In our lifetime, and sooner. There is just a glut right now because it is not being used as much, perhaps due to better technologies, better fuel economy, or OPEC trying to drive the US out of drilling and fracking, however many reports have said that the planet is closer to being out of oil than having oil and only a few years ago gas and oil costs were crazy (even though there is 'plenty of oil' as it is also subject to speculators). To compound this the oil being extracted is getting harder and harder to extract. then you also have to count on OPEC wanting to make money.

    Not much could cause a rapid increase to occur again. Now, there are reports of companies trying to create oil and petroleum, bu then you also have global effects of burning fossil fuels, and limited recycling of existing products like some plastics. Im guessing that LEGO will try to move to a plastic produced out of corn, but the question then because how much will it effect the quality of the product.
  • SprinkleOtterSprinkleOtter Member Posts: 2,731
    Pitfall69 said:
    So...what is the VAT on all Lego in the UK? 20%? The £400 for the new DS has all taxes included correct? On the surface it looks like you guys are paying more for for the DS, but in reality I am paying $5 more after I pay the sales tax on this bastard.
    Where do you have such low sales tax? In NY, it's about $40 extra...
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    madforLEGO said:

    In our lifetime, and sooner.
    Useable oil reserves are expected to double over the next 30 years, and they would be more than an order of magnitude greater than consumption during that period. That's from some of the oil majors who might know a thing or two about it. With the continuing move to greener alternatives it is now calculated that it will never run out.

    Doom-and-gloom merchants stick to old estimates. However, technology moves forwards and we make increasing use of other resources so those old figure are no longer valid. It doesn't stop people using them.
    Im guessing that LEGO will try to move to a plastic produced out of corn, but the question then because how much will it effect the quality of the product.
    They already are. They're investing DKK 1 billion in research at their Sustainable Materials Centre.
  • pharmjodpharmjod 1,170 miles to Wall Drug, USAMember Posts: 2,871
    We will not run out of oil reserves in any of our lifetimes, including my Buddy's little boy that was born today.
    bobabricksSumoLegodougtsDontcopythatfloppykiki180703
  • starwars4everstarwars4ever The Forest Moon of EndorMember Posts: 476
    Pitfall69 said:
    So...what is the VAT on all Lego in the UK? 20%? The £400 for the new DS has all taxes included correct? On the surface it looks like you guys are paying more for for the DS, but in reality I am paying $5 more after I pay the sales tax on this bastard.
    Where do you have such low sales tax? In NY, it's about $40 extra...
    I live in Oregon where there is NO sales tax. But we do have income tax. I like it this way. =)
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,356
    edited September 2016
    Pitfall69 said:
    So...what is the VAT on all Lego in the UK? 20%? The £400 for the new DS has all taxes included correct? On the surface it looks like you guys are paying more for for the DS, but in reality I am paying $5 more after I pay the sales tax on this bastard.
    Where do you have such low sales tax? In NY, it's about $40 extra...
    I live in Oregon where there is NO sales tax. But we do have income tax. I like it this way. =)

    Pitfall69 said:
    So...what is the VAT on all Lego in the UK? 20%? The £400 for the new DS has all taxes included correct? On the surface it looks like you guys are paying more for for the DS, but in reality I am paying $5 more after I pay the sales tax on this bastard.
    Where do you have such low sales tax? In NY, it's about $40 extra...
    6% sales tax, so $30 on top of the $499.99, but I was referring to the UK prices. After it is all said and done, I would be paying $5 more for the DS than people in the UK and we still do not get discounts on exclusives.
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    Pitfall69 said:

    After it is all said and done, I would be paying $5 more for the DS than people in the UK and we still do not get discounts on exclusives.
    I thought you prided yourselves on that fact that everything's bigger over there. Well, now that includes the prices of LEGO sets!

    Let's see $5 to start with, and then a minimum of the magic 27%...

    Oops! Nearly forgot. We'll also have 27% off what we buy with the savings.
  • chrisalddinchrisalddin UKMember Posts: 2,860
    i said it before. i will say it again.

    NO!

    and hell NO!

    just NO!

    the star wars mark up. is just mad.
    it not so bad on the smaller sets.
    as it only add's what £5 to £15.
    but on big sets. like this death star set. it has added what £80? more?
    and that mark up come down to it's "Star wars theme" Tag!
    going by the price of the old death star the mark up was not that bad some years back.
    i question who pulled it? was it LEGO or Disney?
    the old DS set was priced under the old agreement with "lucas films"
    i think it save to say that now disney have that right. is why it had a price jump this BIG!
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    TigerMoth said:

    TLG also hope to be able to switch from using oil-based plastics by 2030. Presumably, it will be absolutely essential to do so, and therefore will justify further price increases.
    TigerMoth said:
    Im guessing that LEGO will try to move to a plastic produced out of corn, but the question then because how much will it effect the quality of the product.
    They already are. They're investing DKK 1 billion in research at their Sustainable Materials Centre.
    Indeed, and it will be today's prices that are funding today's research for future products.

    I also wonder what their pension schemes were like in the past, given what has happened with other large european / UK companies over the past ten years. It seems that a not insignificant amount of today's prices go to fund past decisions too.

    Current prices for any business are not just based on their perceived costs today, they are based on future directions and past decisions too.
    catwrangler
  • stluxstlux LuxembourgMember Posts: 2,140
    edited September 2016
    Looking at LEGO's annual report it seems that most employees are enrolled in defined contribution plans, with only a sliver on defined benefit ones:
    https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/lego-group/annual-report

    Their unfunded obligations amount to 55m DKK.

    (disclaimer: I am not an actuary, nor have read the report in detail)
  • magpie9magpie9 Member Posts: 11
    So many complaints  that this set is matches the price per piece that all the other Star Wars sets retail for. I know ppp is not a good way to compare, should be by weight, but this set does contain a lot of large pieces and mini figs. The ppp of Star Wars set is about one quarter less than it was in 1999. The first version was vastly underpriced compared to other sets in the range. So this is still a bargain for new customers and too bad on those who blew their 8 year chance to buy the original.
  • bobabricksbobabricks Vancouver, BC, CanadaMember Posts: 1,836
    dspigel said:
    empire said:
    $600 CAD, hell no.
    Exactly. The Americans paying $500 is one thing, it used to be almost 10c per piece for them. For us it's always been over priced, and now? Last time a remember a set being over $600 was UCS MF.
    Is there a way for you to buy from south of the boarder?
    That set is not worth the drive, hell it isn't worth a visit to my local store, ha ha.
  • nhyonenhyone Member Posts: 145
    I'm bewildered sometimes. The #10188 was widely anticipated to be a "home run" and command prices far north of US$500. And people are saying the #75159 is overpriced at US$500? Hmm...
  • binaryeyebinaryeye USMember Posts: 1,734
    nhyone said:
    The #10188 was widely anticipated to be a "home run" and command prices far north of US$500.
    Surely such anticipations were formulated before it was apparent #75159 would be an updated #10188.
    nhyone said:
    And people are saying the #75159 is overpriced at US$500? Hmm...
    People expect to pay more for retired sets. And even so, after-market price is generally based on supply and demand whereas RRP for current sets is based on LEGO's market strategies, sales expectations, desired profits, licensing fees, etc.
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    CCC said:

    Indeed, and it will be today's prices that are funding today's research for future products.
    As I said earlier, TLG makes all sorts of excuses for rising prices - they don't need any help!

    There are two very simple reasons why prices for things like LEGO sets are increased when the costs haven't - because they can, and because we've been conditioned to expect it. With the latter, we've been used to higher rates of inflation that has justified general price increases; when inflation drops, we still expect the increases.
    cheshirecat
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    binaryeye said:
    nhyone said:
    The #10188 was widely anticipated to be a "home run" and command prices far north of US$500.
    Surely such anticipations were formulated before it was apparent #75159 would be an updated #10188.
    nhyone said:
    And people are saying the #75159 is overpriced at US$500? Hmm...
    People expect to pay more for retired sets. And even so, after-market price is generally based on supply and demand whereas RRP for current sets is based on LEGO's market strategies, sales expectations, desired profits, licensing fees, etc.
    Maybe they have realised people are willing to pay $500 for #10188. So they will also pay $500 for #75159. Maybe they don't think the number of people that will buy at $500 is very different to the number at $450.

    If they lost 10% of buyers by increasing a price from $450 to $500, they are still better off (the revenue is the same, but production/transport/storage/etc costs lower).
  • monkeyhangermonkeyhanger Member Posts: 2,782
    Perhaps some 10188 owners who were expecting or hoping for something a little different will be tempted by the Lepin UCS DS2 clone if they dodn't get it first time around? Just under $200 delivered. No minifigs to worry about not matching Lego's standards.
  • sonsofscevasonsofsceva 1904 World's FairMember Posts: 537
    edited September 2016
    1. My question is how did this go down in discussions at TLG? I imagine they considered some kind of overhaul and in the end decided not to touch it in general. I wonder what the designers thought of just doing a touch-up to it rather than getting to do some big changes. I feel bad for the designers. They're job is to create, so to just fuss a bit with it must have been frustrating for them.

    2. We ought to be more careful about broad statements about TLG based on this one set. The Marvel sets have become pretty brilliant, the Elves are beautiful and the Ninjago have had some great brick-built dragon designs. The Prison Island was an interesting concept and the Friends stuff has had some brilliant sets (in design and eye-watering bright pink-ness). So to just blast TLG for this set is myopic.

    3. The fact that many persons still buy non-sale, non-exclusive sets at TRU (and other toys, too) to the point that the company still exists is an example of the fact that most folks aren't price savvy and so will not care/notice that a) the Death Star retired at all; b) that it is $100 dollars more than it used to be. How many persons go out and see how much their Honda Odyssey minivan was costing new on the models over the three years previous before they consider the price of the current one? Not very many. Most folks are oblivious to this stuff because it is not their hobby.

    4. As an owner of #10188 I am sad that this is the same set, like I was with the WV Toy Shop. But I am also happy for those who missed it to get a chance to buy what was a decent set. So I am not too bummed about it. Plenty of interesting LEGO sets to purchase yet, and I am hopeful that this year's big SW sets are a fluke and next year's will be back to the brilliance we have come to expect.
    LegoPegasister2015dougtsAanchirecmo47Bumblepants
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    As an owner of #10188 I am sad that this is the same set, like I was with the WV Toy Shop. But I am also happy for those who missed it to get a chance to buy what was a decent set.
    There's a big difference between this and the Toy Shop. They stopped producing it in the same way that they stop producing all sets. Some people came along subsequently and were sad they missed it. And then it was re-released.

    #10188 came to an end when they already knew that they were going to re-release virtually the same set. It was also something that was easier to miss because the price meant that would gather the funds over time.

    It's possible that they always intended to re-release the Toy Shop, but I doubt it. If anything, it seems more likely that some bright spark had the idea of using it to see whether a re-release was likely to be successful, almost as a trial for something a lot more expensive like the Death Star.
  • AyliffeAyliffe the UK innit?Member Posts: 306
    TigerMoth said:

    It's possible that they always intended to re-release the Toy Shop, but I doubt it. If anything, it seems more likely that some bright spark had the idea of using it to see whether a re-release was likely to be successful, almost as a trial for something a lot more expensive like the Death Star.
    The reasoning behind the Winter Toy Shop being re-released was that they were planning to end the Winter Village line completely with Santa's Workshop, but then they realized at the last minute that these things sold like hotcakes. Since they didn't have enough time to develop a completely new WV set, they went and did a re-release as a stopgap solution for that year so they had at least something on the shelves for Christmas 2015.

    As for the Death Star, the main reason for re-releasing it mainly boils down to "because they wanted to charge more". At least with the toy shop there were a couple of visible changes at first glance, unlike with this where I've already mistaken it for the old one several times.
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie West Haven , CTMember Posts: 1,437
    I imagine the discussion at TLG went something like this:

    "10188 is still selling after 8 years, but we are making less profit on it now because 8 years of inflation has driven up costs. We need to raise the price to get the profit margin back in line with current sets. A $50 bump will cover inflation today, but $100 bump covers inflation for the next few years. 10188 is already selling regularly for over $500 on the aftermarket, so it should be a fine price for a minor update.

    We need a new item number, because nobody ever wants to see a price increase. 10188 has been highly praised since release, so we should not mess it up, but we do need a few modifications to have a shot at selling the updated version to people who already bought 10188. But only minor changes - if it's not broken, don't fix it. And changing the item number will make it marginally more difficult to research prices as 10188 is dropped from retail sites. Fan sites will have the data, but most customers don't even know those sites exist. 

    We've already developed new versions of most of the minifigures, so we should include those in the update. Some people feel compelled to have every version of every minifigure, so updating them will capture a few more sales to people who bought 10188 and otherwise would pass up the updated release. Keep the originals in production for the 2017 Star Wars 40th Anniversary Limited Edition Collector's Series. A lot of Star Wars fans will buy anything with a Star Wars logo on it, especially if we throw in enough adjectives that imply exclusivity or rarity."

    gmonkey76AanchirBrickDancerstluxpharmjodLego_Lord_Mayorca
  • catwranglercatwrangler Northern IrelandMember Posts: 1,732
    I think @datsunrobbie is likely to be spot on with that theory. 
    gmonkey76
  • monkyby87monkyby87 Member Posts: 303

    I agree with @datsunrobbie.  We'll never know what was really discusses, but this seems very logical and likely.  10188 was doing well and available for a long time, but that's also the problem; it was doing well and available for a long time.

    gmonkey76catwrangler
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,118
    edited September 2016
    ^ except the part about inflation driving up costs.  Their per unit costs on these things probably had gone down, or at least flat-lined.  the more likely truth is that their hyper-price rises of the past few years had made 10188 far too good of a deal in comparison to more recent offerings, and they wanted to jack up their profit margin to be more in line with their newer targets.

    Plus updating the minifigures and replacing a handful of out of production parts probably lowered their costs and streamlined productivity logistics.
    gmonkey76binaryeye
  • PaperballparkPaperballpark UKMember Posts: 3,389
    Ayliffe said:

    The reasoning behind the Winter Toy Shop being re-released was that they were planning to end the Winter Village line completely with Santa's Workshop, but then they realized at the last minute that these things sold like hotcakes. Since they didn't have enough time to develop a completely new WV set, they went and did a re-release as a stopgap solution for that year so they had at least something on the shelves for Christmas 2015.
    No it wasn't. The reason they did the Winter Toy Shop re-release was that their design dept was so stretched that year that if they hadn't released that, there would have been no Winter Village set last year - they simply didn't have the design capacity to do a brand-new set. Obviously they didn't want to miss a year, and the Toy Shop was the oldest of the sets and therefore the one that most people wouldn't have, so they updated it and released it.
    madforLEGO
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie West Haven , CTMember Posts: 1,437
    dougts said:
    ^ except the part about inflation driving up costs.  Their per unit costs on these things probably had gone down, or at least flat-lined.  the more likely truth is that their hyper-price rises of the past few years had made 10188 far too good of a deal in comparison to more recent offerings, and they wanted to jack up their profit margin to be more in line with their newer targets.

    Plus updating the minifigures and replacing a handful of out of production parts probably lowered their costs and streamlined productivity logistics.
    I probably should have just said "costs have risen" without pinning it specifically on inflation, but inflation affects the cost of raw materials, electricity to run the factory, wages for the workers, and more. There's also the expenses of building new factories, which gets spread throughout the product line. 

    There's development costs in making the new minifigures, which may get distributed over multiple sets in the future, but is currently only an expense for the new Death Star. I was unaware that there were out-of-production parts removed in favor of parts used in other current sets - what parts got swapped out, and what were they replaced with?
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    edited September 2016
    inflation affects the cost of raw materials
    Somebody pointed out that they were actually cheaper.
    electricity to run the factory
    An increase in electricity prices would actually benefit TLG - they own part of the Borkum Riffgrund windfarm in the North Sea.
    wages for the workers
    They make production staff in high-wage countries redundant, and move the work to low-wage ones.

    Hmm...
  • FauchFauch FranceMember Posts: 2,255
    yeah, I think that's a good definition of inflation
    TigerMoth said:

    There are two very simple reasons why prices for things like LEGO sets are increased when the costs haven't - because they can, and because we've been conditioned to expect it. With the latter, we've been used to higher rates of inflation that has justified general price increases; when inflation drops, we still expect the increases.

    also that's economy and dominant economic theories are even more undebatable than natural laws, no matter how much they clash with actual facts.
  • BrewBrew New Mexico (It's an actual state in the US)Member Posts: 182
    Lego products are value priced, not cost plus margin priced. Cost has nothing to do with pricing as long as they are making a minimum gross margin which they are well beyond. 
    dougts
  • thehornedratthehornedrat Member Posts: 86
    Prices keep rising because LEGO can. Simple as that. You suckers will keep on buying. QQ all you like, then you'll buy anyway. No decent competition. Apart from LEPIN.
    dougts
  • thehornedratthehornedrat Member Posts: 86
    edited September 2016
    -
  • thehornedratthehornedrat Member Posts: 86
    The value of LEGO is putting it out of reach of some of us poorer folks.
  • 1x11x1 Member Posts: 116
    I'm sure one of the reasons they added the extra parts was so that they could say "With over 4,000 pieces" in the press release.
    dougtsgmonkey76kiki180703madforLEGOMynattbobabricksDontcopythatfloppyRecce
  • ryjayryjay Member Posts: 989
    Cost of oil effects far more then just the cost of plastics in the product.
    As far as other costs mentioned on the thread, developmental costs are not the same as developmental value that lego may charge as value added to each set.

    Also, I wonder if the licensing fee increases with the MSRP.  I've kinda always figured the Star Wars license to be about 20-25% the cost
  • KingAlanIKingAlanI Rochester, NYMember Posts: 1,830
    Some sort of battle station that can be confused with a small moon. 
    Not surprised this was one of the first comments.

  • ecmo47ecmo47 North CarolinaMember Posts: 2,085
    CM4S said:
    My fear is that it's gonna be the same model with updated figures and some tiny build updates. 
    And the 5th comment nailed it.
    CM4SbobabricksDontcopythatfloppykiki180703
  • AdzbadboyAdzbadboy London, UKMember Posts: 2,615
    What hurts this product is the fact it's a re-release, you’re going to get nothing but comparisons. Main factor being its price has been increased by £124.99, that is simply the because the price has been affected by inflation given the predecessor (10188) was released in 2008 and the fact that it's now a Disney product. With LEGO's decision to keep the original concept and not change about 99% of the model hurts it even more, going back to it being a re-release. They had a great opportunity to market the new Starkiller Base featured in last year’s Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015), however if they wanted something to tie into Rogue One (2016) they could have at least done some major improvements as 10188 is not a perfect product.
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 9,263
    IMO This product is not hurt by a re-release, not when LEGO is more than likely to keep it out for 8 years (like with #10188). The original set was out for 8 years previously; not because LEGO wanted to kick a dead horse, but because it must have sold well.
    It will likely continue to sell well (even at a higher price) as there are new fans coming into buying LEGO every day, especially Star Wars fans. Will it sell to the people that have the original? Not likely. Did LEGO have those people in mind when updating the DS? No, not likely as they know how many bought the set that obviously did not have it before and it appears they are happy with those numbers.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    Adzbadboy said:
    What hurts this product is the fact it's a re-release, you’re going to get nothing but comparisons.
    Not so much from people that haven't got one. There will be loads of such people now and in future.
  • FauchFauch FranceMember Posts: 2,255
    so in 8 years should it look as dated as sets from 2000 now?
    SumoLego
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,732
    ^ We'll have lasers and flying cars by 2022.
    bobabricks
  • bobabricksbobabricks Vancouver, BC, CanadaMember Posts: 1,836
    SumoLego said:
    ^ We'll have lasers and flying cars by 2022.
    Wasn't that supposed to be last year??
    Pitfall69MynattpharmjodDontcopythatfloppy
  • SprinkleOtterSprinkleOtter Member Posts: 2,731
    SumoLego said:
    ^ We'll have lasers and flying cars by 2022.
    Wasn't that supposed to be last year??
    And we have all of the above. Are they in widespread use? No... (well, lasers are, small scale) But they exist.
  • bobabricksbobabricks Vancouver, BC, CanadaMember Posts: 1,836
    SumoLego said:
    ^ We'll have lasers and flying cars by 2022.
    Wasn't that supposed to be last year??
    And we have all of the above. Are they in widespread use? No... (well, lasers are, small scale) But they exist.
    Where are these flying cars you speak of? I could definitely use one. Especially during rush hour.
    LittleLori
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