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Bootleg Punisher

donutboydonutboy U.K.Member Posts: 710
I hate bootleg LEGO. There's a stall at our local car boot sale that sells all those Chinese knock off minifigs. My family and I always stop by and laugh at the inept copies, and marvel at the better quality ones that can sometimes be almost indistinguishable against the real thing, but have always resisted buying any. That is until......



We have replaced the hair, head, legs and guns with real Lego parts so the only thing left of the bootleg is the torso and coat. After Daredevil season 2 I can't see Lego making an official one, can you?
SumoLegoTheBigLegoskichuckpkiki180703flordLordCrom

Comments

  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    edited May 2016
    No.  I agreed with you.

    I think the same applies to Deadpool.  We won't see either of those figs for awhile in light of Lego's policies.

    Frankly, any character associated with the NetFlix Marvel properties aren't going to be in minifig form.  The shows are excellent, but are not remotely family friendly.  I'd be willing to wager my house or a small castle.

    Car boot bootleg?  What's that all aboot?
    SprinkleOttergmonkey76bobabricksmadforLEGOJackad7chuckpkiki180703Pitfall69
  • donutboydonutboy U.K.Member Posts: 710
    Do you mean a small Frank Castle, I'm not betting him. I like him too much.
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    If the torso were just a custom print on a Lego part, you'd have a more acceptable custom figure.
    madforLEGOkiki180703
  • donutboydonutboy U.K.Member Posts: 710
    If I custom print a Punisher skull onto a real Lego part and then sell it at a car boot sale how would that be any more acceptable. Marvel still wouldn't get their cut would they?
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    edited May 2016
    That's a 'custom' rather than a bootleg.  Assuming you define a bootleg as something that uses non-Lego pieces.  

    Bootleg to me always suggests fraud.
    SprinkleOtterkiki180703
  • donutboydonutboy U.K.Member Posts: 710
    If I were to print a Punisher skull on a T-shirt and sell it without an arrangement from Marvel and call it a custom because i'd bought an official Levi shirt, then that's OK is it?
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie West Haven , CTMember Posts: 1,461

    Every time I see the question about bootleg vs counterfeit vs custom I am reminded of this exchange from The Big Chill:

    Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.

    Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.

    Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?


    klatu003donutboycatwranglerkiki180703snowhitie
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    donutboy said:
    If I were to print a Punisher skull on a T-shirt and sell it without an arrangement from Marvel and call it a custom because i'd bought an official Levi shirt, then that's OK is it?
    The shirt and the minifigure are both not licensed.  Strictly speaking, you should not be selling either one.

    I was writing in the context of 'more acceptable'.  Using non-Lego parts on a 'custom' figure and claiming the figure to be genuine would be considered 'worse' in the hierarchy of whatever I'm talking about.
    madforLEGOkiki180703
  • donutboydonutboy U.K.Member Posts: 710
    I suppose if you use a genuine Lego part and print a Punisher you're only breaking one copyright, not two.
    SumoLegokiki180703
  • YodaliciousYodalicious DagobahMember Posts: 1,366
    Are you breaking the copyright if you make if for yourself? Or only if you sell it?

    Remember, kids, don't do anything without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.
    donutboymadforLEGOSumoLegochuckpkiki180703gmonkey76Andor
  • ChubblesChubbles USAMember Posts: 459
    If you don't sell it you can do whatever you want i'd imagine
    bobabricksmadforLEGOkiki180703
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    ^ So long as it for private usage...


  • Legopassion8Legopassion8 North CarolinaMember Posts: 1,180
    edited May 2016
    Have any of y'all bought from eBay seller wayofthegeek? I found this Gambit. I'm in @donutboy position before he pulled the trigger on the Frank. I was just wondering of the quality. Um with the beef between Fox and Marvel,i don't see alotta mutants anytime soon either. There's a pretty nice looking Mystique , as well.





  • thehornedratthehornedrat Member Posts: 86
    edited May 2016
    This customs vs bootleg debate is really pissing me off. Apply the same standard.

    First world = custom.
    China = bootleg.

    Seriously.
    goshe7
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    There is a difference between the origin and authenticity of the parts.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,374
    edited May 2016
    I don't mind making a "custom" at home for your own use; making a "custom" licenced minifigure and selling it is another thing. I do not think profiting using someone else's IP is acceptable,  but that's me.

    ...and I agree, a custom and a bootleg are different animals.
    gmonkey76Jackad7madforLEGO
  • wayneggwaynegg Texas,USAMember Posts: 394
    donutboy said:
    After Daredevil season 2 I can't see Lego making an official one, can you?
    After Daredevil season 2...? How about after Amazing Spiderman #129
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,374
    edited May 2016
    About "Daredevil"; Leland just said "I could care less." No way Lego make anything Daredevil now ;)
    SumoLegochuckp
  • wardmwardm BelgiumMember Posts: 561
    @Legopassion8 the staff is a LEGO knock-off piece (the upper part is too long), so I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the figure is too... 
  • Jackad7Jackad7 Wisconsin Member Posts: 486
    This customs vs bootleg debate is really pissing me off. Apply the same standard.

    First world = custom.
    China = bootleg.

    Seriously.
    Unique=custom
    Counterfeit=Bootleg

    When I see clonearmycustoms or fineclonier they use LEGO parts with their own decals/paint/custom helmets. When I see these chinese figures they are straight up low qualit copies. Very rarely do they (like in this scenario) have figures that are unique, and even when they do I'm not willing to support a group (?) that is producing counterfeits.
  • Coolguy5000Coolguy5000 Ireland Member Posts: 1,520
    Have any of y'all bought from eBay seller wayofthegeek? I found this Gambit. I'm in @donutboy position before he pulled the trigger on the Frank. I was just wondering of the quality. Um with the beef between Fox and Marvel,i don't see alotta mutants anytime soon either. There's a pretty nice looking Mystique , as well.





    That pricing is outrageous for a bootleg.  They can be gotten  for a small number of cents.
    Jackad7kiki180703
  • PatsyWalkerPatsyWalker TorontoMember Posts: 83
    I made an account after months of lurking just to chime in on this.

    That figure looks like the custom work of MinifigFX but with minor details changed in Frank's belt and skull logo.

     http://www.shop.minifigfx.com/Punishing-Expert-00013.htm

    Perhaps it's a bootleg of the custom? I've dealt with MinifigFX for a while now fleshing out my Marvel collection, and to my experience and knowledge they use real LEGO parts and machine print their original designs onto them.

    Unless that torso is a common custom template. I'm not too familiar with the custom scene beyond buying quality ones of characters I enjoy.
  • donutboydonutboy U.K.Member Posts: 710
    I made an account after months of lurking just to chime in on this.

    That figure looks like the custom work of MinifigFX but with minor details changed in Frank's belt and skull logo.

     http://www.shop.minifigfx.com/Punishing-Expert-00013.htm


    Punishing Expert, Daring Devil, AKA Jess, how is that allowed. $20, I suggest that that is supporting a (possibly) illegal industry much more than the £1 I payed to the lady for mine.
    chuckp
  • CupIsHalfEmptyCupIsHalfEmpty CanadaMember Posts: 547
    At least this argument has a black and white rule to be applied to it called the law. 

    Two seperate legal issues.

    "Clone"
     Lego owns the rights to the minifigure. If anybody profits from molds that copy the minifigure without a licensing agreement with lego that is illegal. 

    "Custom"
    If you take an official Lego minifigure and customise it and sell for a profit that is legal. 

    "Illegal Custom"
    If you take that same minifigure and customise it to look like somebody else's intellectual property and then sell for a profit, without a licensing agreement that is illegal. This is the one that gets broken the most and there's the most confusion over.

    If a grandma knits a sweater and sells it that's fine. If a grandma knits a sweater with the Superman logo on the front and sells it for profit. That's illegal. One of the deciding factors for the purchaser on purchasing the Superman sweater over the equivalent plain sweater is somebody else intellectual property printed on it. Grandma profited off of Superman and needs to pay a percentage of her profits for the right to do that. 


  • chuckpchuckp NYMember Posts: 684
    donutboy said:
    I made an account after months of lurking just to chime in on this.

    That figure looks like the custom work of MinifigFX but with minor details changed in Frank's belt and skull logo.

     http://www.shop.minifigfx.com/Punishing-Expert-00013.htm


    Punishing Expert, Daring Devil, AKA Jess, how is that allowed. $20, I suggest that that is supporting a (possibly) illegal industry much more than the £1 I payed to the lady for mine.
    Punishing Expert? That's classic! Sounds like it could be an S&M minifig.

    I always thought it was funny how the custom minifig makers would use non-trademarked names for there figs, but had no problem using any of the signature logos, such as the Punisher skull. Surely those are protected too. 
    MattDawsondonutboykiki180703
  • Legopassion8Legopassion8 North CarolinaMember Posts: 1,180
    Um....whose the wise_ss that gave the Chinese the idea to print Future Fondation figures? There are other examples. The Chinese might be to blamed for production but somebody is feeding the companies some really good f-ing ideas! 
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,374
    I just thought of something while driving past a tattoo shop. Is it illegal for someone to make money tattooing a Superman logo on someone's arm? Remember at the end of The Avengers and that guy had a Captain America shield tattooed on his arm?
    pharmjod
  • ReesesPiecesReesesPieces Member Posts: 815
    The tattoo artist/parlor is offering or providing a service and not selling a product.  The service he provides is not dependent on that superman logo hence I think it is legal.  When some sells a product/good with a superman logo, the sale of the good probably relies on that logo to help sell it.  I'm not a lawyer so I'll wait for the better educated to provide a more accurate response.
  • AllBrickAllBrick UKMember Posts: 1,404
    Pitfall69 said:
    I just thought of something while driving past a tattoo shop. Is it illegal for someone to make money tattooing a Superman logo on someone's arm? Remember at the end of The Avengers and that guy had a Captain America shield tattooed on his arm?
    Spoiler alert.
    SumoLegokiki180703Kevin_HyattTheMaker37
  • PatsyWalkerPatsyWalker TorontoMember Posts: 83
    edited May 2016
    chuckp said:
    donutboy said:
    I made an account after months of lurking just to chime in on this.

    That figure looks like the custom work of MinifigFX but with minor details changed in Frank's belt and skull logo.

     http://www.shop.minifigfx.com/Punishing-Expert-00013.htm


    Punishing Expert, Daring Devil, AKA Jess, how is that allowed. $20, I suggest that that is supporting a (possibly) illegal industry much more than the £1 I payed to the lady for mine.
    Punishing Expert? That's classic! Sounds like it could be an S&M minifig.

    I always thought it was funny how the custom minifig makers would use non-trademarked names for there figs, but had no problem using any of the signature logos, such as the Punisher skull. Surely those are protected too. 

    Some follow up to this and the tattoo question. As it happens, I work in comics as an artist and have a lot of tattoo artist friends.

    The short and dry of it is that it does infringe copyright for any artist to produce a copyrighted work and make money off of it.

    The more complicated answer is there's a grey area. Simplest example:

    At any comic con there is an Artist Alley of professional working big name artists and smaller artists breaking in. They make money selling prints and drawing commissions. Most customers are going to be commissioning Daredevil, Black Widow, Wonder Woman, etc. Legally (and I got this from a legal advisor who specializes in this area of copyright and IP) Marvel, DC, AD2000, whoever, don't want anybody making money off of these characters if they aren't getting a taste.

    In fact, there are some artists who will not draw copyrighted characters as they have been on the wrong end of a law suit, although that's because they made full on books, even if in jest.

    However, it would be a detriment to the fans - the people who spend money in the industry on anything from LEGO to clothes to statues - if the big companies stormed Artist Alley and started cease and desisting every artist doing this and every fan paying for this. It's just not done.

    In the long term, everyone turns a blind eye to things like commissions, tattoos, and custom figures (not just LEGO, there's a huge action figure market) because the fans and creators are happy and keep the comic economy and interest in the brands flowing.

    Had you wanted me (a freelancer or contracted to someone not Marvel) to draw you Spider-Man and that money goes towards my living expenses and me alone, that's violating the copyright, but it's not worth Marvel's time or money to punish me.

    It's not worth taking away AKA Jess and then LEGO never producers Jewel, so fans are screwed on two fronts and risk not having any reason to trust and invest in Marvel.

    That's all as I understand it as a working artist.
    chuckpThanos75Pitfall69kiki180703TheBigLegoskidonutboycatwranglerpharmjod
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    I'm not 100% up to speed on my copyright law, but I'm pretty sure selling a custom figure is not lawful.

    And I think we have two separate rationales competing here:

    1.)  Strictly speaking, only Lego can produce genuine figures, and only Lego can produce licensed figures if they have a license to do so.

    I suppose one could license a third-party to make custom figures using genuine Lego as a medium.  So long as the third-party purchased Lego legally, there would be no prohibition on resale for profit.

    2.) Using any 'clone' or non-Lego part and advertising it as genuine Lego is fraudulent, no matter if it is custom.  More to the point, nobody collecting figures in this forum wants non-genuine parts.  (I'd want full diclosure that a torso was wiped and then printed with whatever custom nonsense I was seeking.)

    And... enforcement of copyrights is completely subjective.  
    MattDawson
  • devilheaddevilhead Member Posts: 280
    Thought this was going to be about somebody punishing bootleggers.  Disappointed.
    Jackad7LuLegoBumblepantskiki180703SumoLego
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,806
    edited May 2016
    Jackad7 said:
    This customs vs bootleg debate is really pissing me off. Apply the same standard.

    First world = custom.
    China = bootleg.

    Seriously.
    Unique=custom
    Counterfeit=Bootleg

    When I see clonearmycustoms or fineclonier they use LEGO parts with their own decals/paint/custom helmets. When I see these chinese figures they are straight up low qualit copies. Very rarely do they (like in this scenario) have figures that are unique, and even when they do I'm not willing to support a group (?) that is producing counterfeits.
    Many of the fakes are actually very good quality. That is the problem, it is not always easy to tell them apart from the real thing.
  • fleuryfleury Member Posts: 10
    SumoLego said:
    I'm not 100% up to speed on my copyright law, but I'm pretty sure selling a custom figure is not lawful.
    It depends on what it looks like. As you correctly described later in your post, if you use genuine Lego parts and turn them into your own version  of a Gambit minifigure, you are violating Marvel's copyright.

    But you can use Lego parts to make minifigs of public domain characters or characters of your own creation. Those would be "custom" Lego figures, and perfectly legal to make and sell.

    SumoLego
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,927
    Yes, public domain is fair game.  Thus why Disney essentially re-wrote the copyright laws through legistation, lobbying and litigation.

    Mickey Mouse will never make it to the public domain...

    Nonetheless, if I made a custom figure of any licensed IP (for profit), I would expect that to be a violation.
  • ImABrickManNowImABrickManNow BrickyMcBrickMember Posts: 270
    I say throw that crud out bootleg Lego should be burned!!!
  • Pumpkin_3CK5Pumpkin_3CK5 CaliforniaMember Posts: 768
    I thought it was a call to arms against bootleggers, vigilante style.
    SprinkleOtterSirBen
  • ImABrickManNowImABrickManNow BrickyMcBrickMember Posts: 270
    We shall rise up against the bootleggers and TAKE BACK LEGO!!!!!!
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