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any idea what the 2015 winter village set is?

1568101113

Comments

  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited August 2015
    To clarify one more time:

    A- I'm content with the companies current offerings and general *Product* direction (with minor nuanced quibbles I've already discussed)

    B- I am quite displeased and even at times angered by the recent changes in LEGOs retail, LUG, and AFOL *Policies*

    It's quite easy to judge those two distinct things very differently 
    tamamahm
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited August 2015
    SumoLego said:
    I'm curious to know how 2011 was some Lego renaissance that I should be romanticising...
    From my perspective:

    1) Late 2011 was the last time there was a really good Black Friday sale, with a great number of really coveted sets (Emerald Night, Imperial Flagship, THE Winter Toy Shop, etc.) on sale along with the 2 little Xmas vignette sets and % discounts.  The stacking was wonderful.  Every BF since then has paled terribly in comparison.

    2) It was pretty much the end of TRU's BOGO50 and even better B2G1 on Lego, including exclusives, which prior to that, happened a few times a year.

    3) Exclusives were discounted, nuff said.

    It was a romantic dream indeed compared to today, for resellers, Resellers and collectors.
    dougts
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    Ah, so the complaint is that they don't discount their product?
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited August 2015
    Well, I don't know if it can be boiled down to just that, but it is fair to say the hammer came down pretty hard on multiple fronts.  It can certainly be said they there were lots and lots of discounts, and suddenly there weren't.  I sure wish I didn't have to jump through so many hoops to get what I perceive to be a good deal on my yearly Technic flagship.
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 9,617
    edited August 2015
    SumoLego said:
    CMFs are a negative?

    Generally, I disagree with your assessment of the direction of Lego.  And with aspects of your analysis, but I certainly respect your opinions.

    I'm quite content with the company's offerings.
    CMFs being 3.99 USD sure is a negative, at least for me. Apparently some may have tons of money to throw at a minifig, but I do not. Not when a poly bag with many more parts goes for the same price.

    LEGO is clearly getting greedy. Yes there is inflation, but I am fairly certain their cost increases blow by inflation numbers right now.
    Look no further than #60052 being 199.99 USD, and #60097 being 189.99 USD. Look at the new #75096 Sith infiltrator being 89.99 USD that is roughly the size found in the previous design that was 59.99 USD (and that was still too expensive IMO)
    Heck look at #7663 and #7961 and tell me there is not a problem with the numbers there.
    Is LEGO still making money? Yes, but being greedy and driving prices up tends not to help a company that sells a toy (especially when prices are going up, but yet the quality of the parts is going down). Eventually people will stop buying and LEGO's managers seems bit oblivious to that, which may cause them problems down the road.

    Times are good, until they are not, and most times companies fall to account for this. IMO LEGO is going down this road now. Just too many parallels to the mid/late 90's for me here.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather pay less than more.  And it's a double whammy because not only are discounts much less available and generous, but RRP pricing has spiked the past two years relative to set size/weight 

    so the sets are priced higher to begin with, and the deals aren't nearly as good. Again, I'm not entitled to any set pricing or deals, but I sure have noticed the change in the value proposition, and I'm sure entitled to complain about it and lament the recent times when much better deals were available 
    madforLEGO
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    The issues in the '90's had much more to do with ancillary products and expanding beyond their core product.  Some of that expansion was objectively risky and expensive.

    I'd agree if the basic blocks disappeared, but they still sell well - even with all of the comparitively expensive licensed sets.

    It's different when the Cartoon Network practically begs for another season of a popular cartoon.

    And Warner Bros. immediately green-lights two future feature films.

    It's not that Lego is making money - they are literally making more money than they ever have.  And from a number of alternative sources.  The immediate result is a much wider variety of product, and much wider availability.

    Not to sound like a Lego apologist, but this is a very differently managed company from the '90's.

    Dimensions is an interesting test for the company.  If it's wildly successful, it'll be added to the list of Lego 'turns everything to gold' argument.  Considering their track record in the online gaming world... I worry.

    Although their video game offerings have been pretty succesful as well...
  • DedgeckoDedgecko Seattle, WAMember Posts: 799
    Lego owes their success this decade to Travellers Tales and the work they've done transitioning Lego to the digital age.  Had it not been for TT's game design, Lego's popularity would have been confined to a niche toy market for children and AFOLs.
  • adamireradamirer DublinMember Posts: 2
    Dedgecko said:
    Lego owes their success this decade to Travellers Tales and the work they've done transitioning Lego to the digital age.  Had it not been for TT's game design, Lego's popularity would have been confined to a niche toy market for children and AFOLs.

    Good bit of truth to this, made LEGO hip again amongst gamer age groups and broadened its appeal widely. Hard to see the LEGO movie ever happening without the success of the games. The first Star Wars game was what brought me back to it after 15 years!

    Back to the topic, I too (first time poster) have been eagerly awaiting the new WV set and am dumbstruck at the re-issue, not least because I spent May/June sourcing about 50 pieces on BL that I needed to finish the poxy set. None the less...

    I'd not have minded this IF it had been accompanied by a new set. My son (just 7) and I built the previous 2 sets (Carousel & Santa) the night we put the Christmas tree up, for the last 2 years. This WAS going to be a Christmas family tradition for the next 7-8 years for definite, and who knows beyond. I'd have thought my kids 'may' have continued that tradition on with their own. So I am very, very disappointed, but mainly if this is it - ie: no 2nd set.

    I can certainly see that if this is followed by a re-release of a key modular or 2, that it will ravage the reseller market, but I don't have a massive problem with that, that's speculation folks!!!!! not a guarantee. But if they stopped new modular and only did re-releases, well different beast.

    I have 10229 mib in the attic, so that'll cover the 2015 tradition, but really, there's no shortage of festive ideas, really hope they get their act together.

    Winter: Café, Park Snowball fight, Church/Cathedral/medieval tower (as appropriate), Pub/bar, train station, train, "coke truck", Santa grotto (queue for Santa), Dickens-ian, Gingerbread house, Holiday Inn, winter farm/stables/zoo (reindeer, goats, donkey, chickens, cows, we hired one, awesome), Ice rink, etc

  • thedingman5thedingman5 Great Lakes, USAMember Posts: 260
    adamirer said:

    I'd not have minded this IF it had been accompanied by a new set. My son (just 7) and I built the previous 2 sets (Carousel & Santa) the night we put the Christmas tree up, for the last 2 years. This WAS going to be a Christmas family tradition for the next 7-8 years for definite, and who knows beyond. I'd have thought my kids 'may' have continued that tradition on with their own. So I am very, very disappointed, but mainly if this is it - ie: no 2nd set.


    Just curious, but what if the line ended altogether?  Is that worse?  Is a re-release worse?
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,960
    ^ Exactly. Many families do set up holiday traditions around a specific annual Christmas release whether an ornament or a Lego set. Lego thoroughly botched this. 

    In in our case, I do not have a new holiday set put away. I also can not easily add on to my theme, because I already have over the years using up most of our spare Lego which came from those old grab bags Lego sold. This year our focus is going to have to be Halloween. Unless something new comes out.
  • binaryeyebinaryeye USMember Posts: 1,734
    tamamahm said:
    Many families do set up holiday traditions around a specific annual Christmas release whether an ornament or a Lego set. Lego thoroughly botched this.
    Perhaps such families will now ask themselves whether it's wise to base traditions on things out of their control (specifically, consumer product lines a mere six years old).

    Make your new tradition a family MOC built from the pieces of the existing Winter Village. It would be something new every year, it would never be killed off because of a business decision, and it would likely be more fun and interactive than following instructions.
    thedingman5jebarringerJern92
  • BrikingBriking Dorset, UKMember Posts: 751
    ^ I expect most families would expect the tradition to look the same every year... MOC is not the answer.
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,960
    binaryeye said:
    tamamahm said:
    Many families do set up holiday traditions around a specific annual Christmas release whether an ornament or a Lego set. Lego thoroughly botched this.
    Perhaps such families will now ask themselves whether it's wise to base traditions on things out of their control (specifically, consumer product lines a mere six years old).

    Make your new tradition a family MOC built from the pieces of the existing Winter Village. It would be something new every year, it would never be killed off because of a business decision, and it would likely be more fun and interactive than following instructions.

    Why on earth would  I want to take apart my existing winter village sets? We like them as they are. It would be like telling someone with a modular display, that was not happy that Lego decided to only make repeat modulars that their solution was to take apart their display. Here is a great idea for everyone, take apart HH instead of having that as part of your Halloween display. 

    Sure, Lego is modular and can be built into anything, but I am pretty sure that most people that have a specific display set-up are not planning on cannibalizing their actual display. 

    People have traditions all the time with things beyond their control. 


  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    edited August 2015
    Nike has the dominant share of the basketball shoe market. The Jordan line is one of their most popular. Although Nike doesn't promise it, consumers have come to expect annual releases of Jordans. One year, as popular as Jordans are, they have other new products they'd like to explore and, in order to do so, must divert resources away from the development of new Jordans.

    But, they also have fielded a constant barrage of requests to re-release the Jordan 1s over the years. They determine it's possible to re-release the Jordan 1's with slight improvements and minimal impact to the new initiatives.

    They are cognizant that while some die hard sneaker heads will be disappointed, many people will welcome the re-release. In fact, some of those that are disappointed may still buy the re-release.

    What should Nike do?
    a) Not release a Jordan shoe this year
    b) re-release the Jordan 1's with slight improvements
    goshe7Salamalex
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    I'll take 'A' for the win Alex.
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,960
    Neither choice. Things are never as simplistic as simply  two choices. With a line as popular as Jordan, it would make sense to resource both. 

    I do not buy into the theory that Lego was so overwhelmed with developing a gazillion other sets that they could not design one set that comes out once a year. 


    dougtsTheLoneTensorpharmjodGoldchains
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,496
    They should make both, but I'm not displaying them at Christmas.
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    People collect sneakers?  
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    I was being facetious about the designers being distracted.

    They have the resources to design new sets, but chose to re-release this set.  

    I'm sure there is an algorithm or sales analysis that explains (but may not justify) this choice by Lego.  

    If it is succesful, who knows what that means for 2016...
  • pharmjodpharmjod 1,170 miles to Wall Drug, USAMember Posts: 2,904
    Still keeping my fingers crossed for a ginger bread house or something. They seem to like to have multiple modular buildings out at once. Maybe they are testing that out with the winter village this year. Santa's workshop, toy store and a new set. 
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,496
    If Lego keeps re-releasing old sets or keeps old sets around longer, won't that give the designers more time to design new sets?
    kiki180703
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    ^  They'll be busy designing the next wave of 200 minifig and small-scale Dimensions pieces.
    (1)Steinkiki180703Lego_Lord_Mayorca
  • adamireradamirer DublinMember Posts: 2
    edited August 2015
    adamirer said:
    I'd not have minded this IF it had been accompanied by a new set. My son (just 7) and I built the previous 2 sets (Carousel & Santa) the night we put the Christmas tree up, for the last 2 years. This WAS going to be a Christmas family tradition for the next 7-8 years for definite, and who knows beyond. I'd have thought my kids 'may' have continued that tradition on with their own. So I am very, very disappointed, but mainly if this is it - ie: no 2nd set.


    Just curious, but what if the line ended altogether?  Is that worse?  Is a re-release worse?

    No a re-release isn't worse - for new people its great and like I said, no problem with it. My 7 year old will still get lego sets. But it's a missed opportunity beyond the loss of a guaranteed sale to me and thousands of others. When you do an 'annual tradition' and then you 'break' the run, you also break the incentive for many people to keep the tradition going. Its part of the fun of collecting and the anticipation of what may come this year.

    By not doing a fresh set in 2015, and maybe again in 2018 (for example), you make it VERY easy to walk away from purchasing further sets in the line - there's a 'got to have them all' instinct that's there from Pokémon to (original Star Wars figures to comics. Break it, you break the habit.

    eg: Kid starts collecting Spiderman comics in 2005. Has every issue. Suddenly Spiderman stops being made for a year. Does the kid start recollecting when the year is up? Maybe. Maybe the interest/habit/craving is gone.

    I think the point here is Lego may sell, say 10,000 xmas sets per year.  By doing a re-issue, maybe 70% of the target market already have it and won't bother with it (I won't - can't justify €80 for a copy of a set I have {to my wife!}). Lego is pricey and for regular joes, and regular joes with families approaching Christmas (and I guess Thanksgiving for ye Yanks), its an expensive time of year! If it accompanied a NEW set, then I'd welcome this AND I do hope they re-release the others, but not at the loss of fresh ideas.


    kiki180703dougts
  • MAGNINOMINISUMBRAMAGNINOMINISUMBRA Member Posts: 993
    Just out of curiosity - has grogall led us astray before?
    juggles7
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    adamirer said:

    I think the point here is Lego may sell, say 10,000 xmas sets per year.

    You've tossed that number in without really using it.

    For what it's worth, there was an article on Gizmodo a few years ago. There were (and it's presumably more now) seven sets sold every second, a figure which qudruples at Christmas. So a popular set at that time of year probably sells that sort of quantity every couple of days.
  • aldreddaldredd United KingdomMember Posts: 203
    Wow, a lot of hate going on over a lego set :)

    I sympathise with a lot of what's being said re the changes over the years - but the reality is that the product is more popular now, so there's less need to discount it.

    Remember, in our capitalist society, companies / retailers don't really set prices based on the manufacture cost (so the whole 'price gone up x but doesn't cost more to produce' is fairly irrelevant) - prices (which encompasses promotional activity, giveaways etc) are set based on what they believe the customer will be willing to pay.

    With a more popular product, Lego estimates customers (importantly, enough customers to max out their supply limit) will be willing to pay a higher price than perhaps they would have done 5 years ago.

    Naturally, those who have stuck with the product over the years see the full force of that sadly, so like I say, I do sympathise with the disgruntlement, even though I'm not in the same place personally
  • alexwilalexwil UKMember Posts: 369
    Just out of curiosity - has grogall led us astray before?
    Not that I'm aware of - even when it has looked likely - first time for everything?! (Hoping this isn't that first time!!) 
  • LegoTTLegoTT Member Posts: 479
    The Nike comparison is an interesting one. Design and production lead times may be similar. Target market is very different, though.  Does any AFOL on this forum believe that we are represented in a significant manner in the market research that Lego does?

    I feel like Lego does significant market research to determine where they'd get the best bang for their buck in terms of development- especially with a such a long lead time. The WV set was probably towards the bottom of the list. Simple as that. This is a toy company.  A toy company in business to make money off of children's toys. They determined it was in the best interest of the company to re-release the WV set. Not shocking. 

    I'm happy they make tough decisions that rattle the brains of AFOLs. It means the company will still be financially viable in a few decades so we can all continue to enjoy it. 

    /soapbox
    thedingman5Salamalex
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    ^ pretty much this. There is more to getting a product to market than design. If LEGO could make infinite sets in infinite themes and it only ever bolstered profitability, they would. But, like any company, they are resource constrained and I imagine that opportunity cost is a major factor in what makes it to market.

    I have no doubt that the re-release of Winter Toy Shop is going to sell well and go through periods of being temporarily out of stock. If it does, that would seem to prove the business case for shifting focus was correct.

    I collect the theme and build each year's installment around the holidays as a tradition. It's one of the few releases I'll buy on day one. So, yes, I would prefer the set I'll be building this year were something entirely new. But LEGO still will get my money. And I can recognize this is a net positive for fans with there being far more people who missed out on this set that will be thrilled than there are people who feel disappointed and/or aggrieved.
    kiki180703cheshirecatLegoTTpharmjodSalamalex
  • DuqDuq Member Posts: 23
    Just to add to the confusion, the German catalog for the second half of 2015 is showing last year's Santa's Workshop as 'New in September' on page 29:
    http://catalogs.lego.com/BrandCatalog/de_de/2HY2015/
    Oops...

  • aplbomr79aplbomr79 Member Posts: 159
    I am not in favor of this 'reboot'.  However, it allows me to save more money - it seems TLG has been 'forcing' me to save money as of late - that I can spend on other hobbies.

    Plus, if this reboot brings in new interest to WV then I am all for it.  I think getting a solid sale of this product this season could help TLG find their way when it comes to WV.  I would love to see more of a Dept. 56 style of marketing and product.
  • ToddMyersToddMyers Cincinnati, OHMember Posts: 403
    Well, for me, this decision just saved me a ton of money.  I've been debating about exiting the hobby for the last several months, and this announcement just sealed the deal for me.  Of course, I have many reasons besides this one, and this alone would have never caused me to abandon the hobby, but it was certainly the tipping point for me.  Now I just have to sell the 600+ sets that I have and the 260+ CMFs.  Fun times.  Wonder if Bill Gates wants to buy a huge collection of plastic bricks....
  • DedgeckoDedgecko Seattle, WAMember Posts: 799
    edited August 2015
    ToddMyers said:
    Well, for me, this decision just saved me a ton of money.  I've been debating about exiting the hobby for the last several months, and this announcement just sealed the deal for me.  Of course, I have many reasons besides this one, and this alone would have never caused me to abandon the hobby, but it was certainly the tipping point for me.  Now I just have to sell the 600+ sets that I have and the 260+ CMFs.  Fun times.  Wonder if Bill Gates wants to buy a huge collection of plastic bricks....
    No, but the rest of us will, especially if enough people want to exit at once, crashing prices.

     >:) 
  • ToddMyersToddMyers Cincinnati, OHMember Posts: 403
    I'm not seeing any evidence that a bunch of people want to exit the hobby right now, but if that happens and prices crash, I have no problem with sitting on what I have and leaving it for my next of kin to figure it all out.  I have no interest in conducting a fire sale.
  • DedgeckoDedgecko Seattle, WAMember Posts: 799
    ToddMyers said:
    I'm not seeing any evidence that a bunch of people want to exit the hobby right now, but if that happens and prices crash, I have no problem with sitting on what I have and leaving it for my next of kin to figure it all out.  I have no interest in conducting a fire sale.
    Considering all of the "outrage" from the rerelease, that's what I'm hoping for.  A wake up call to those who seem to forget that TLG rereleases just about everything in one form or another.
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,960
    edited August 2015
    Dedgecko said:
    ToddMyers said:
    I'm not seeing any evidence that a bunch of people want to exit the hobby right now, but if that happens and prices crash, I have no problem with sitting on what I have and leaving it for my next of kin to figure it all out.  I have no interest in conducting a fire sale.
    Considering all of the "outrage" from the rerelease, that's what I'm hoping for.  A wake up call to those who seem to forget that TLG rereleases just about everything in one form or another.

    Again, and think this has been said countless times on this thread already,  most people are not upset that there is a rerelease. Most people are upset that for a theme that has only one release a year, there is not anything new, and the theme may be very well dead.

    People often are 'upset' when a theme they love ends. That is not new.
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 9,617
    Dedgecko said:
    ToddMyers said:
    I'm not seeing any evidence that a bunch of people want to exit the hobby right now, but if that happens and prices crash, I have no problem with sitting on what I have and leaving it for my next of kin to figure it all out.  I have no interest in conducting a fire sale.
    Considering all of the "outrage" from the rerelease, that's what I'm hoping for.  A wake up call to those who seem to forget that TLG rereleases just about everything in one form or another.
    Big difference in making a set in the same vein of an old set (like the #60097 city square instead of the #60026 town square for example), and trying to remake the set brick for brick. I had enough of that for SW theme (though can understand why they have to do it for SW), and am really hoping this does not become the norm for other lines/themes.
    On the plus side it will save me a ton not having to buy the same set twice, but on the minus side it is pretty uninspired to do this IMO, and just smacks more and more of LEGO designers and/or bean counters 'phoning it in', especially when the redone set seems also rise dramatically in price from the last version.
  • RevBluesRevBlues Member Posts: 117
    a winter train would be awesome, i customized a lone ranger train for christmas

    Pics or it didn't happen.

    (I need ideas to do the same thing.)
    JELJ1S
  • RevBluesRevBlues Member Posts: 117
    I submitted an Idea for a Winter Village Church disguised as a Castle Keep. :o)

    https://ideas.lego.com/projects/88167



    pharmjodbobabrickskiki180703Dedgecko
  • thenosthenos Twin Cities, MNMember Posts: 416
    edited August 2015
    RevBlues said:
    a winter train would be awesome, i customized a lone ranger train for christmas

    Pics or it didn't happen.

    (I need ideas to do the same thing.)


    http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/239932 

    But you already posted there.  
  • RevBluesRevBlues Member Posts: 117
    edited August 2015
    thenos said:
    RevBlues said:
    a winter train would be awesome, i customized a lone ranger train for christmas
    Pics or it didn't happen.

    (I need ideas to do the same thing.)

    http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/239932 

    But you already posted there.  
    I thought you meant you had added Xmassy elements to it, not just motorised it.
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    I finally got around to watching the Lego video regarding the set, and I have to agree the designer looks a bit non-enthusiastic about the set.

    However - this did make me think about the Toy Shop versus the Kwik-E Mart.  If they would have done something more grand with the Toy Shop retread, I don't think we would be complaining as much.

    Granted, the Kwik-E Mart has 2000 pieces, and the Toy Shop has 815, but they could have certainly increased the piece count and gave us a more substantial set!  There is no licensing to pay for - and some of us would probably consider shoe-horning some of these Creator sets into our modular town.

    And I can do without the tree.  That's pure polybag or give-away fodder.

    Even a half-sized Kwik-E Mart full of toys would have been something to get me off of the fence.  One train?  One Space Man and a cat?
  • dejavudejavu USAMember Posts: 235
    edited September 2015
    Well, I'm sorry they're not doing something new. I have all the winter sets and really enjoyed the last few especially. Seems they could have come up with a better idea.
  • dejavudejavu USAMember Posts: 235
    You could always get the 2015 City Advent Calendar - it has a number of new toys you could add to the Toy Store.
  • RevBluesRevBlues Member Posts: 117
    Shouldn't we be holding a competition?

    "Lego isn't bringing out a new Winter Village set this year, so let's design our own"

    A few simple rules - real world winter/holiday scenarios/buildings only, scaled to fit with existing sets, limited to 1,000 pieces, et cetera.

  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    RevBlues said:
    Shouldn't we be holding a competition?

    "Lego isn't bringing out a new Winter Village set this year, so let's design our own"

    A few simple rules - real world winter/holiday scenarios/buildings only, scaled to fit with existing sets, limited to 1,000 pieces, et cetera.

    That's how we ended up with a Market Street...
  • RevBluesRevBlues Member Posts: 117
    SumoLego said:
    RevBlues said:
    Shouldn't we be holding a competition?

    "Lego isn't bringing out a new Winter Village set this year, so let's design our own"

    A few simple rules - real world winter/holiday scenarios/buildings only, scaled to fit with existing sets, limited to 1,000 pieces, et cetera.

    That's how we ended up with a Market Street...
    Missed that.  What is it?

    And no reason not to do something again, but maybe a little different.  Maybe limit it to 500 pieces this time?  Choose a specific shop type?
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 12,817
    Market Street is a modular from a few years ago that is aesthetically ... bad.  

    It was not designed by Lego, but instead by a fan.
  • chuxtoyboxchuxtoybox Member Posts: 711
    SumoLego said:
    Market Street is a modular from a few years ago that is aesthetically ... bad.  

    It was not designed by Lego, but instead by a fan.
    And yet one seller on Ebay is asking $3,900.00 for it.
    oldtodd33kiki180703
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