Shopping at LEGO or Amazon?
Please use our links: LEGO.comAmazon
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.

When is the End of ABS?

2»

Comments

  • AdeelZubairAdeelZubair London, UKMember Posts: 2,664
    LEGO GROUP TO INVEST 1 BILLION DKK BOOSTING SEARCH FOR SUSTAINABLE MATERIALS

    http://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news-room/2015/june/sustainable-materials-centre
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,410
    For some reason I cannot cut and paste anything in the comment box. 
  • JackBrickHouseJackBrickHouse Member Posts: 2

    cnn.com homepage: "Lego is ditching plastic"

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/23/news/companies/lego-sustainable-material/index.html

    Don't they know the AFOL community runs a Global Recycle (Resell) Program so that very little ends up in landfills? It's probably more about oil prices and PR "green" labeling.


  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,410
    Instead of throwing away chewed up and discolored Lego, I give them to my children and friends of mine that have children. They don't mind.
  • pharmjodpharmjod 1,170 miles to Wall Drug, USAMember Posts: 2,912
    That article looks a lot like PR to me. LEGO isn't going to do anything that fundamentally changes everything about their product. It sounds good for them to say they are going to research it and put money into it, but at the end of the day, I would bet money the actual brick and what it is made of will not change much if at all. Packaging is a whole different story though. I'm sure they can continue to find ways to make it more environmentally friendly while at the same time doing nothing to deter thieves from pilfering product.
    Pitfall69
  • AanchirAanchir United StatesMember Posts: 2,877
    edited June 2015
    This topic was recently discussed here, but I feel the need to repeat this point to try and put a stop to this absurd myth. ABS and oil in general are not "non-renewable" materials. There is more supply in the ground than we can use in hundred lifetimes, and more is made all the time. The oil companies have gotten rich over the years getting everyone to think it is scarce (anything that is scarce must be expensive, right?), if you actually look at the numbers, we produce more than is actually consumed and can make a lot more than that if we wanted to. Now, pollution from burning it is another matter, I do agree we should stop making a mess of our planet. But turning oil into ABS isn't the problem, burning oil in our cars is. We now return you to your regular programming.
    From a global perspective, you're right that oil is not about to run out. But from an economic perspective, many oil reserves are being depleted and many of the untapped oil reserves are remote or difficult/expensive/risky to drill. This means that the cost of extracting oil is likely to continue to increase.

    Part of the reason oil prices are even as low as they are now is that a lot of oil companies are trying to compete with the natural gas industry, which is in the midst of a boom right now. But even that is liable to slow down, what with studies increasingly showing that hydraulic fracturing poses environmental dangers. And once that industry is less of a threat, it goes without saying that oil companies will raise their prices again.

    Whether oil price increases are really driven by supply and demand or by oil companies manipulating the facts is irrelevant — investing in materials not based on fossil fuels is in the LEGO Group's best interest if they want to get out from under that industry's thumb.

    pharmjod said:
    That article looks a lot like PR to me. LEGO isn't going to do anything that fundamentally changes everything about their product. It sounds good for them to say they are going to research it and put money into it, but at the end of the day, I would bet money the actual brick and what it is made of will not change much if at all. Packaging is a whole different story though. I'm sure they can continue to find ways to make it more environmentally friendly while at the same time doing nothing to deter thieves from pilfering product.
    LEGO has changed the material they work with before, and they've even made plenty of incremental chemical changes since switching to ABS in order to adapt to changing toy safety standards and optimize their own product. They are clearly not afraid of changes that they think improve the product in one way or another.

    If LEGO is investing large amounts of money into researching new alternative materials, regardless of any PR-related incentives, I hardly think they're going to sit around and not do anything with the results of that research. Particularly when they've gone so far as to commit to a deadline.

    Why bother generating positive PR in the short term if it's going to result in negative PR in the long term when you fail to meet a deadline you set yourself? It would have been just as easy and about as effective from a PR standpoint not to commit to any kind of deadline and just brag about your goals and the amount you're investing in meeting them.
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    ^But we've already seen how some of these changes are impacting the quality of the bricks and pieces in the recent decade. They are lighter in density and more prone to cracking. Further changes in the ABS formula being considered are to reduce the use of oil and raw material costs, none of which would improve the integrity of the brick. The only factor is how far can they go and still achieve respectable quality. This equation prevents them from improving anything that would benefit us as a user of the product. It only helps TLG's production costs and their compliance to environmental guidelines and limits.

    Essentially, this is good for everyone except us the builders.

    oldtodd33Lind_Whisperer
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    ^But we've already seen how some of these changes are impacting the quality of the bricks and pieces in the recent decade. They are lighter in density and more prone to cracking. Further changes in the ABS formula being considered are to reduce the use of oil and raw material costs, none of which would improve the integrity of the brick. The only factor is how far can they go and still achieve respectable quality. This equation prevents them from improving anything that would benefit us as a user of the product. It only helps TLG's production costs and their compliance to environmental guidelines and limits.

    Essentially, this is good for everyone except us the builders.

    If previous changes have reduced quality, there is nothing to say that future changes will do the same, even if they are primarily about reducing cost.
    Aanchir said:

    Part of the reason oil prices are even as low as they are now is that a lot of oil companies are trying to compete with the natural gas industry, which is in the midst of a boom right now. But even that is liable to slow down, what with studies increasingly showing that hydraulic fracturing poses environmental dangers. And once that industry is less of a threat, it goes without saying that oil companies will raise their prices again.
    Oil prices have dropped because demand increased, most notably in China, so the price rose making it worthwhile to pursue more expensive production methods. Demand has now dropped, both as a result of the high prices and because there's more pressure on using less oil and using it more efficiently. That's led to a drop in price. In the past, OPEC would have restricted production to underpin the price, but a number of Middle-Eastern countries who dominate OPEC and who have the lowest production costs, spare capactiy and can afford the pain, can use low prices to put pressure on other producers - particularly the US and their shale oil.

    For what it's worth, OPEC have said they will not reduce production even if the price drops to $20/bbl. OPEC is engaged in a price war with US shale oil. A problem with "non-conventional" production methods is that you have to keep investing in new sites so production costs don't really drop over time.

    This is likely to be at least the situation for at least the medium term. What happens in the long term will depend on whether cheaper oil stimulates higher demand or whether we continue looking for and using alternatives. Some people have suggested that we will never see $100/bbl again.
  • Lind_WhispererLind_Whisperer ZotaxMember Posts: 65
    TigerMoth said:
    ^But we've already seen how some of these changes are impacting the quality of the bricks and pieces in the recent decade. They are lighter in density and more prone to cracking. Further changes in the ABS formula being considered are to reduce the use of oil and raw material costs, none of which would improve the integrity of the brick. The only factor is how far can they go and still achieve respectable quality. This equation prevents them from improving anything that would benefit us as a user of the product. It only helps TLG's production costs and their compliance to environmental guidelines and limits.

    Essentially, this is good for everyone except us the builders.

    If previous changes have reduced quality, there is nothing to say that future changes will do the same, even if they are primarily about reducing cost.
    Using the same logic as you're using, there's no reason to assume that quality will improve.
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    Lind_Whisperer said:

    Using the same logic as you're using, there's no reason to assume that quality will improve.
    I didn't say it would. The point is that whether the materials used seem "better" or not, there is no direct link with whether they are more or less suitable for their purpose. It may even be subjective.
  • ecmo47ecmo47 North CarolinaMember Posts: 2,101
    edited June 2015
    If the PR campaign is effective enough, we will all be happy with a lesser quality product simply because it's being sold as "green". 
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,525
    ^ Umm...No!
    Lind_Whisperermatticus_brickspharmjodTheBigLegoski
  • matticus_bricksmatticus_bricks Member Posts: 651
    "When it reaches the end of its life" That statement worries me. Lego doesn't have an end to it's life. Do they intend for the bricks to only last as long as children play with them and then biodegrade completely in landfills? I really hope this doesn't have negative effects on brick quality, "green" or not. 
    Lind_Whisperer
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,005
    "When it reaches the end of its life" That statement worries me. Lego doesn't have an end to it's life.
    Yes it does. Have you never removed a well used piece thinking it is too scratched up or broken. I've had some parts I wouldn't use as filler. They get chucked in the bin (or dropped in acetone for lego paint).
  • Lind_WhispererLind_Whisperer ZotaxMember Posts: 65
    CCC said:
    "When it reaches the end of its life" That statement worries me. Lego doesn't have an end to it's life.
    Yes it does. Have you never removed a well used piece thinking it is too scratched up or broken. I've had some parts I wouldn't use as filler. They get chucked in the bin (or dropped in acetone for lego paint).
    If it's a rare part, that's in a limited supply, like a CS brick, you keep using it. If it isn't, you use it as part of your interior supports.
  • Lind_WhispererLind_Whisperer ZotaxMember Posts: 65
    edited June 2015
    EDIT: Accidental double post - could a mod please delete this post?
  • GalactusGalactus NLMember Posts: 255
    CCC said:
    Have you never removed a well used piece thinking it is too scratched up or broken. I've had some parts I wouldn't use as filler. They get chucked in the bin (or dropped in acetone for lego paint).

    I have never thrown out a single brick. In my lifetime I've had about 3 broken bricks due to incorrect use and 4 or 5 broken bricks from regular use. I stil have all the pieces, including pieces of clips.
  • BrewBrew New Mexico (It's an actual state in the US)Member Posts: 182
    This investment by TLG is a very long range plan targeted for 2030 to implement some sort of 'sustainable' new plastic. Not only do they have no idea what this material is, I'm sure this also includes initiatives in other area such as manufacturing methods, energy sustainability and packaging methods. Most of these thing are mentioned by JVK during several interviews he has given lately regarding this investment.

    If you go back to something LFT said earlier in this thread, the news people receive today comes in the form of headlines and sound bites. I especially love the "Lego is ditching plastic" headline. I just talked with a former colleague yesterday and was told, "Did you know Lego is going to get rid of its plastic and make bricks for something like corn starch?". Ridiculous and ludicrous. Total distortion of what was actually said.

    BTW @Pitfall69 , you are a total grave robber ;) I wanted to use that since I just learned what that is this morning.
    Pitfall69
  • matticus_bricksmatticus_bricks Member Posts: 651
    @CCC I see what you mean, and yes I have done that to parts I wouldn't dream of building with. I guess what I had envisioned by that "end of life" statement was just general boxes of Lego being tossed out when children outgrow them, rather than being sold to someone else. It's sad, but I have heard of this happening. I was talking to one man at a yard sale who said that a few years back, he tossed several garbage bags full of his son's Lego, who had since gone to college and moved out, in the trash because it was "in his way" and he thought it was worthless. All I mean is that I hope a change in quality doesn't justify this course of action as Lego becomes closer to other toys that don't stand the test of time under normal circumstances. 
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,410
    edited June 2015
    @Brew and that is exactly the reason why I did it :)

    BTW, I have been called worse things ;)
  • LordofLegoLordofLego Member Posts: 311
    This topic was recently discussed here, but I feel the need to repeat this point to try and put a stop to this absurd myth. ABS and oil in general are not "non-renewable" materials. There is more supply in the ground than we can use in hundred lifetimes, and more is made all the time. The oil companies have gotten rich over the years getting everyone to think it is scarce (anything that is scarce must be expensive, right?), if you actually look at the numbers, we produce more than is actually consumed and can make a lot more than that if we wanted to. Now, pollution from burning it is another matter, I do agree we should stop making a mess of our planet. But turning oil into ABS isn't the problem, burning oil in our cars is. We now return you to your regular programming.
    My question is: is this a conspiracy theory, or is "we are running out of oil" the conspiracy? 
  • LordofLegoLordofLego Member Posts: 311
    Personally, I don't think they would actually fully transition to a completely different material. I think they might mix something else in with the ABS to use less.
  • OndraOndra Member Posts: 74
    Lego will change to bio and degradable materials in 2030.

    Megabloks probably master their ABS formula up to 2030.

    Which one win this war in 2030?My bet is on Megabloks.No one wants degradable toys with high price, if this turn will be bad, lego will probably end.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,005
    Lego are not trying to make biodegradable products. They are looking for more sustainable product sourcing, and what to do with the 'waste' at 'end of life'.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Shopping at LEGO.com or Amazon?

Please use our links: LEGO.com Amazon

Recent discussions Categories Privacy Policy

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Brickset.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, the Amazon.com.ca, Inc. Associates Program and the Amazon EU Associates Programme, which are affiliate advertising programs designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.

As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.