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Help with Lego train set #182

oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
    I recently purchased a decent copy of #182 and it is missing the train stop signal. I have 5 to 10 spares of this part but they are all of newer vintage. 

    My question, for those who own a copy is, does the train signal have the words pat. pend. on the underside or not?  Common sense would say it does since it was released for sale in 1975 according to BL, but I would like to hear from someone who owns one. 

    I have checked all of my spare signals as well as BL itself and all of the inventories looking for actual pictures but have come up empty. The part is also found in these (link below) sets on BL so if you own a copy of one of these maybe one of those would have a signal in it you could check. The only trains on that list that would qualify would have been made in the 1970's. I have a copy of 7720 and several copies of 7722 and they would not count.

http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemIn.asp?P=x489&in=S

Comments

  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
    Bump
  • graphitegraphite USMember Posts: 3,263
    Might try asking in the train forum on EB since there are probably more train enthusiasts.
    oldtodd33
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
    I'm not a member of EB, but that's a good suggestion. Thank you.
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Hertfordshire, UKAdministrator Posts: 6,461
    I have two copies of Set 182, @oldtodd33, and each one contains a train stop signal. Neither of the signals has pat. pend. on the underside of the base or anywhere else. I should probably confess that I haven't owned either copy of the set from new so can't guarantee that the signals haven't been replaced or substituted by the previous owners at some point, but I suspect that both signals are originals.   
    oldtodd33
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
    @drdavewatford  Thank you very much, I appreciate your effort.
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Hertfordshire, UKAdministrator Posts: 6,461
    edited March 2015
    No problem - glad I have the set and could help out.
  • LusiferSamLusiferSam MontanaMember Posts: 509
    Pat pend would have been unlikely in 1975 and later.  Obscured and void would have been more likely.  But there a number of factors.  Pat pend was around longer in the US than Europe.  The later the set was made the more likely it would be an obscured or void element.  It all denpeneds on how fast Lego sold out of their inventory of pat pend elements.  Common elements would have gone quickly, rare one slowly.  It's not a 100% by any means, but I'll try to match a missing element to the rest of the set.

    oldtodd33
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
    ^ I know what you are saying. This particular set was made by Samsonite Canada and made it's way down to Texas. I figured in 1975 they may or may not have been putting Pat. Pend. on new molds but the signal base was made in blue/white well before then. I just don't know when or by whom.

       I looked at all of my spares and can only see a mold number and no sign of scratched off Pat. Pend. anywhere. But I know or assume mine were made at a much later date and probably another country by 1980 since I think Samsonite was gone by 1980 and the molds used to make that part were probably different.

      Here's a link to the auction I won so you can look at it.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/111608707273?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
  • IstokgIstokg MichiganMember Posts: 2,144
    edited March 2015
    Hope that helps answer your question.   :) @oldtodd33  I'm doing research on my Unofficial LEGO Sets/Parts Collectors Guide, and have been working on some serious research on Canadian Samsonite LEGO sets.  Although USA Samsonite lost the LEGO license in 1972, Samsonite of Canada continued to produce LEGO until 1988 (even though the Canadian LEGO license was sold back to TLG in 1986).

    Here's my take on this.... although this set was introduced in Canada in 1975 (just like elsewhere, but not the USA), the common elements were produced by Samsonite of Canada in their Stratford Ontario plant.  However, specialty parts such as these signals were likely produced in Denmark.  However, by 1975 the Pat. Pend. period was over, and even the Pat. Pend. obscured era was being phased out.  You can safely use a red signal without either, and still have a legitimate set.

    Any multi-year LEGO set produced during that era will have a mix of parts from year to year.  There is no single right answer as to which parts in any set of that era should have any particular part type.  It all depended on when the LEGO inventory of an older party type ran out.  So you needn't worry if you use a red signal without either marking (Pat. Pend. or Pat. Pend. obscured).

    Also, the fact that your set is clearly marked with SAMSONITE of Canada (is that just a sticker?), makes it more valuable.  That fact may not yet be readily apparent to a lot of collectors, but in my next update to my Computer Desktop LEGO Collectors Guide (free to current owners), I plan on showing many of these Canadian sets, and discuss their rarity, since they were produced in counts that are but a fraction of the number of the same sets sold in the other 3 major LEGO markets.... 1) Continental Europe, 2) Britain/Australia and 3) USA.

    Canadian LEGO sets still don't get the full respect that they deserve for their relative rarity, as compared to those sets sold in other markets around the world.

    If that 182 box does have a Samsonite sticker (as well as the batteries sticker)... my guess is that the cardboard box was itself imported from Denmark, and stocked with mostly (but not all) Canadian made parts.  If it was of Canadian origin, it would have been printed on the box, and not included as a sticker on top.

    Hope that helps answer your question.   :) 

    P.S. I'm compiling an online copy of all the Samsonite of Canada LEGO catalogs, and am about 75% finished, for owners of my collectors guide.
    oldtodd33
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
      Thank you @Istokg for your comments. You are correct that the Samsonite as well as the battery graphics are stickers. The box itself says Made in Denmark. The parts inside are a mix of Pat. Pend. and no marking parts with mold numbers. All of the parts as far as I can tell have casting pips. The factory Lego instructions were printed in Germany and the advertising leaflet was printed in Denmark and says British Lego Limited. But it has a picture of the old blue 4.5V motor on it, so probably a left over. 

       The worst part so far is that the seller failed to mention the battery car damage and I am currently working on trying to get the battery car in running condition. They also failed to say that they bought it from a used toy store of some sort because the partially torn off sticker with a QR code is stuck to the box.
       
  • IstokgIstokg MichiganMember Posts: 2,144
    edited March 2015
    Thanks @oldtodd33 .... the fact that there are still a lot of Pat. Pend. parts in such a late set (where there should be either Pat. Pend. removed or no markings).... shows another peculiarity about Samsonite (as found earlier with USA Samsonite LEGO as well)... and that is that they used molds for quite some time... and when new molds came out, some of the older ones (used or unused) may likely have been shipped to Samsonite.

    So you will find older parts mixed in with newer ones in Samsonite sets... that make them difficult to restore original contents, as you are finding out.

    Also, the fact that you have a LEGO advertising leaflet from British LEGO Ltd. (another licensee... of the Courtauld's Corp. under the name British LEGO Ltd.) shows that TLG supplied Canada with a mix of different items that logically don't belong together.

    As I am filling in the blanks among Canadian LEGO sets and catalogs, I am finding a lot of very strange combination of items that TLG Denmark shipped to Canada.   In a sense Canada was a "dumping ground" for leftover or obsolete parts, just as the USA was in the 1960s.

    From the 1960s thru late 1980s the major LEGO production sites were Loveland Colorado/Enfield Connecticut for USA, Wrexham Wales for Britain, Ireland and Australia, and Billund Denmark for continental Europe and Asia.... and then there was little Stratford Ontario Canada (Samsonite)... that churned out only a fraction of LEGO sets/parts as the other 3 sites... and often got leftover or discontinued parts and paperwork that makes LEGO Canada such a very interesting variation on LEGO collecting.  Pure LEGO Mayhem!!  :D
  • IstokgIstokg MichiganMember Posts: 2,144
    edited April 2015
    @oldtodd33 ..... you opened up a whole other "can o' worms" on this 182 Train Set!!   :)

    Here is your Canadian version that you won....





    Here is a French version with French sticker....




    Just as the Canadian version was exported from Denmark to Canada, here is a UK version (with English sticker) that was exported to British LEGO Ltd., for use in Britain, Ireland and Australia....



    Since no LEGO trains were sold in the USA from 1973-79, this 182 train was never sold there.  However, LEGO collector Gerald Postma had purchased this very interesting 182 set... with the same small "buy batteries reminder" English sticker that the Canadian set had... along with this same information stamped in Spanish.  This copy of the 182 set was from Argentina!!!



    Here is a closeup of the Spanish stamp on this very interesting variation that was likely exported from Denmark to Argentina in the 1970s...



    This opens up a whole new genre of LEGO sets going back at least a decade before LEGO was supposedly introduced to Latin America.... like I said... a whole new "can o' worms" for my LEGO Collectors Guide!!   :o



  • IstokgIstokg MichiganMember Posts: 2,144
    edited April 2015
    My bad.... the Argentina train set was 183, not 182.... which dates it to about 1976-77.  

    Also, after checking all my Canadian catalog scans, it appears that the 182 Train Set was only available in 1975.  That was the last year for blue track era trains in Canada (ditto for the track parts packs).  Europe and Australia continued with blue track era train production until 1980, when the gray track trains were introduced.

    All the blue track era trains in the USA were only from 1966-70.  There were no trains sold in the USA again until the early 1980s (gray track era).
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
    That's too bad about the Lego trains not available in the U.S. from 1970 to 1980. I can confirm this though because that's when i grew up (1970-1980) and I don't remember ever seeing any trains in stores and never received any as gifts. By 1978 I was 12 and into my dark ages though I do remember seeing the new minifigures with arms and legs and thinking they looked weird, compared to what I played with. 
  • IstokgIstokg MichiganMember Posts: 2,144
    edited April 2015
    @oldtodd33 ... I go back to Christmas 1960... when my uncle sent me a 700/1 LEGO set from Germany to the USA... a full year before USA sales started.  My dark ages started around the time when you were into LEGO during the 1970s.  I came out of my dark ages in 1979, when visiting relatives in Germany I visited a book store that had some early 1960s German spare parts packs (LEGO System on the box), as well as 2 retailer 214 1-10 Retailer Windows/Doors boxes.... I remember paying about $60 for all the items, and that got me started back into LEGO.

    Here's what the inside to one of these boxes looks like...



    Here's the (hinged) box top to the earlier 1958-60 version....



    And here's the hinged box top to the 1961-65 version of the same 214 1-10 box...



    These retailer boxes were only found in continental European countries, except Portugal.  Images from my Collectors Guide.
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,506
    I remember all of those windows. They worked best by sliding them onto the studs rather than pushing down to assemble them.
    Pitfall69
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    I may have some of those windows
  • IstokgIstokg MichiganMember Posts: 2,144
    What was nice about the 1956-86 classic windows (the 1x2x2 made it to 2003) was that THEY WERE A SYSTEM.... For the world's leading construction toy... they really don't have a decent window "system" today.... the new 1x2x2 and 1x2x3 were a good start... along with the 1x4x3 (without shutter tabs).... but you can only do so much in the way of mixing and matching.  When I see the Ole Kirk House model using the back of headlight bricks for 1x1 windows... I cringe... 
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