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Difference in Dark Red in Cafe Corner

RazzyredRazzyred Member Posts: 4
edited August 2014 in Building and Techniques
I bought a Lego lot off Craigslist that had a few of the modular sets, one was Café Corner. I sorted the colors and there are different colors of dark red, can anyone help with this? Lego.com doesn’t make a distinction between colors but Brickset refers to a Dark red and New Dark Red. These colors are mixed and I can’t figure out why there are different colors because there aren’t more sets in the bin that use the dark red pieces. I plan on selling this set but now I don’t know what to do because of the different colors. Thank you for any help.

Comments

  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Member Posts: 2,694
    My first thought would be that there could be minor color variation of the bricks.

    My second thought is that it could be a Bricklinked set.

    Does it have the original Lego printed instructions? If not, I would say it is BL'd. I would check to see if it has the correct white panels here: http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=2362b

    Those same dark red bricks were used in Pet Shop and could have come from that.
  • RazzyredRazzyred Member Posts: 4
    Thanks for your help, the original instructions are included. I'm thinking it's variations of the brick because one part is a slope brick and there are 36 of them in the Cafe Corner, 20 of them are one color and 16 are a different color. I hope when I sell it the buyer is OK with the difference in colors. The Pet Store is here also but I haven't started looking at that one yet.
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Member Posts: 2,694
    @Razzyred You stated in your opening post that there were NO OTHER sets that used that color. Obviously there are by your last post. I would say you should have 38 of the slopes in there, 2 for Pet Shop and 36 for Cafe Corner.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 Member Posts: 11,454
    I'm thinking since the Cafe Corner is the oldest/first Modular Building; it may have a decent amout of UV exposure. Some colors are more susceptible to discoloration than others.
  • bsiu922bsiu922 Member Posts: 439
    sometimes, the original owner may swap something out, as i bought a cafe Corner off CL, 2nd and 3rd level are still sealed in the bag, and the first lever, the wall between the stairway and the cafe area bricks switch from dark blue to light blue, but lucky, those are easy stuff to replace
  • GuroooGurooo Member Posts: 268
    I've seen color variations in brand new sets too. I'm not sure but I think I saw that when building Pet Shop. It was some sort of big set at least, and it was one of the long 1x's that all had a slightly different color.
  • ecmo47ecmo47 Member Posts: 2,101
    I have built many CC second levels using bricks from both Lego PAB and BL. While age and UV are a factor, Lego colors are not uniformly consistent. The Reddish-Brown color has more dramatic consistency issues as noted by the photo. Also note the difference in the Dark-red 1x4 comparded to the 1x1 beside it. This model was built with BL parts but my original CC has color varation issues similiar to this.
  • RazzyredRazzyred Member Posts: 4
    Thank you for all the information. ecmo47 I had also noticed the variations in the brown so this was as a big help.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2014
    Cafe Corner had slopes that are called "dark red". Other than #8031 that had quantity 1, they only appeared in Cafe Corner. When the aftermarket price of Cafe Corner rose dramatically, many people sourced the parts to build it rather than buy the original set, and the already short supply was completely exhausted.

    People were very excited when they saw Pet Shop would have 2 dark red slopes since it meant that the pieces were being produced again, but they ended up being a noticeably different shade, likely an unintentional result of color variation of the dye. That is what is being called "new dark red".

    So, without seeing a photo of the color variation, if you are seeing two distinct colors, it sounds like the rarer Cafe Corner slopes were substituted with newer ones.

    As for what to do, your options seem to be:
    1) Procure additional original "dark red" for a complete set of 36
    2) Procure additional "new dark red" for a complete set of 36. Divulge that they have been replaced for uniformity
    3) Divulge knowledge of color variation when selling

    The list is ordered from most difficult/highest selling price -> least difficult/lower selling price.
    sid3windr
  • Kevin_HyattKevin_Hyatt Member Posts: 778
    Colour variation is a bugbear of mine. Went to get some yellow 2x4 bricks from PAB wall the other day and there were THREE quite distinct shades of yellow there! All new bricks all arrived in store in the same box and yet still three variants of what was supposed to be same colour.
  • beegeedeebeegeedee Member Posts: 380
    ^ It's not just PAB. I built the City mine set maybe 18 months ago and there was clearly 2 different shades of yellow as well as red. Looking at the numbering of the bricks, all the lighter red ones came from the same lot (had the same number stamp).

    It was the first set I really noticed the problem. The other ones were the ninjago fire temple and a second creator log cabin (original/first one was fine) where the browns varied in colour. Maybe I am just looking more carefully but these pieces are more common than they were 4 years ago. Also, they all seem to have poorer clutch power.

  • raygunnraygunn Member Posts: 95
    @Razzyred I also noticed 2 distinct shades of dark red slopes with my CC which I bought used a few years ago. As the set is currently dismantled pending a rebuild, I have just dug out the parts for another look. More obvious than the colour difference is that I have a mixture of what Bricklink classifies as 4460a (Completely Open Stud) and 4460b (Hollow Stud).

    Although I cannot say for certain, I had no other indication that it had been bricklinked and had always thought it to be an original complete set. I wonder if some factory batches used a mixture as Lego do not differentiate between the two?

    Also, this has come up for discussion on Brickset previously here:
    http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/8745/wanted-part-4541382
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    raygunn said:

    as Lego do not differentiate between the two

    But they do.

    They use (at least) three different part numbers: 4267279, 4541382 and 4623597, although the Design ID remains the same.

    It makes sense to use a different part number if the mould changes, even if the part is nominally the same. There are also differences other than the stud type - the internal ridges are different, for example, making it easier/harder to fit a single stud centrally in the bottom. Changes sometimes influence whether a particular piece can be used in a particular situation and it wouldn't be much good to have a few million of a certain brick in stock and not know whether it can be used for a new set.

    On the other hand, most of the time it's possible to use anything with the same Design ID, and some sets will have a mixture. What I tend to find, though, is that most of the bricks are the same with just one or two that are slightly different. If you tracked how they were packed in the bags, you might find that different bags were sourced from different batches. In any other situation you'd expect bricks from the same production run (and therefore from the same mould and of the same colour) to tend to stay together.

    A 20/16 mix for these bricks in CC suggests that it's not (all) original. I don't know how they're bagged, but as they're all used in the roof it's reasonable to expect that they'd all be in the same bag. Or half in each of two identical bags. That wouldn't give the mix here.
  • Sethro3Sethro3 Member Posts: 995
    I've never seen the old dark red. I'm only familiar with the new dark red. I bought 36 from the pet shop to build my version of CC. Does anyone have pictures of this color variation of the slopes??

    I've seen color variations elsewhere. It supposedly has to do with the dye and plastic changes they went with. Something about color pellets or they switched from using them? And bricks are more translucent than they used to be.

    LEGO is cutting costs so they can stay profitable I'm sure.

    I do believe each time they have a new mold created, the similar piece will then have a new element ID number. Look at dark blue 1x2x8 arch from CC and winter village market. Same piece, but different numbers because the mold is actually different. They have been reinforcing the underside of the arches for quite some time, so you can "rebuild" old sets, but they aren't identical to the original production run. But most people wouldn't be aware of that.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 Member Posts: 11,454
    ^outrageous!!!
    Bumblepantskiki180703
  • thehornedratthehornedrat Member Posts: 87
    Can be a combination of quality control issue and UV exposure?
    Another common example is the difference in yellow coloration in technic beams, even in the same set.
  • Ma1234Ma1234 Member Posts: 693
    It is purely a quality control issue. I purchased one brand new back in 2007 and have the same problem. LEGO quality control still sucks big time, but it was way worse in 2007 than it is today, if you can even imagine that!
  • WoutStopmotionWoutStopmotion Member Posts: 33
    Looking at a randomly built red-brown wall on my desk, i can tell you that even those have colour variations. And they're all (except for maybe four pieces) from the Pet Shop set. I hope this helps in some way.
  • ColoradoBricksColoradoBricks Member Posts: 1,659
    Always has different "yellow" colors in Technic set #42009, #42030, etc ... worst has been #42000 were 5 out of 8 piston were close light orange but not the official LEGO color...
  • jgadgetjgadget Member Posts: 192
    edited September 2014
    I can't remember exactly which year it changed, but dark red has changed.
    It was probably around 2009, so I guess it's possible that a mix could have been in some CC sets.
    My CC definitely had the older colour.

    The older pieces are brighter and more translucent than the newer dark red.
    Of course, due to slightly suspect quality control, there are variations in each of these varieties too, which I believe is worse in the older variant.
    I store my old dark red and new dark red pieces separately.

    Note also that you should search for 4460* on bricklink, which will show that there are 8 sets that had one or other type in dark red: 4460, 4460a or 4460b
    Go for the completely open studs if you want the older dark red, since all mine have completely open studs, with the moulding mark on the vertical face.
    All my new dark red have hollow studs, with the moulding mark inside the stud.
  • pvp3020pvp3020 Member Posts: 198
    My #10225 R2-D2 had two different shades of Dark Blue. My collection also includes 2 shades of Dark Red and 2 very distinct shades of trans-light blue round 1x1 plates.
  • LucentLucent Member Posts: 8
    I just got a used Café Corner that otherwise seems to have no substitutions with 22 of 4460a and 14 of 4460b. Maybe someone who created theirs from sealed bags can shed some light on whether this is lazy Bricklinking or actual oddness from Lego themselves.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    Lucent said:
    I just got a used Café Corner that otherwise seems to have no substitutions with 22 of 4460a and 14 of 4460b. Maybe someone who created theirs from sealed bags can shed some light on whether this is lazy Bricklinking or actual oddness from Lego themselves.
    this would not be unheard of.  LEGO has done this before with other piece variants. As long as they consider it just an updated mold and not an actual new piece, they will just start using new pieces when the old ones run out, even to the point where the same set can have two different styles in it.
  • SprinkleOtterSprinkleOtter Member Posts: 2,779
    Lucent said:
    I just got a used Café Corner that otherwise seems to have no substitutions with 22 of 4460a and 14 of 4460b. Maybe someone who created theirs from sealed bags can shed some light on whether this is lazy Bricklinking or actual oddness from Lego themselves.
    Is there any real difference between the parts? I know that the USD Star Destroyer was sometimes made out of both new and old gray.
  • LucentLucent Member Posts: 8

    First under flash. Second is natural light. Pretty surprising difference, and I'm red-green colorblind. I was actually pretty amazed this set even had all the extra parts accounted for. Nearly unheard of in buying used on eBay.

    sid3windr
  • gmonkey76gmonkey76 Member Posts: 1,828
    edited March 2016
    Don't know if this will help as I took photos on my phone. Bought both CC and PS new.  CC photos no flash, but flash on PS as too dark otherwise. Both have been displayed since new(minus two years in storage). PS dark red looks the same to me, but CC dark red looks to have color difference.(all parts are original to set)
    Lucentkiki180703
  • LucentLucent Member Posts: 8
    If you were feeling especially frisky you could pop open the parts above the differing red roofs and see if some had a hollow stud and some had a hole going all the way into the piece. That would confirm a different mold used in the same set and not just color variation.
  • gmonkey76gmonkey76 Member Posts: 1,828
    Was easy to pop open the corner. Looks like in my set LEGO used both
    Lucent
  • LucentLucent Member Posts: 8
    Thanks! That confirms it. What annoys me now is that the way mine are split up, 22 and 14, I can't alternate colors of rows. I could if it were 20 and 16 like the other poster here. I wonder if the split varies from set to set.
    gmonkey76kiki180703
  • CalvCalv Member Posts: 904
    ^
    What you could do is to source some more slopes to ensure yours are all the same shade. I have had a look on Bricklink and there is a large quantity of these slopes available in the USA. Part 4460b on Bricklink  will be the later variant. Part 4460a will be the older one and will doubless cost more. These parts are sought after and are priced accordingly.

    This part in Dark Red was re-released 2 years ago in set 41075 and the part is still available from Lego Bricks & Pieces. 

  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Member Posts: 10,787
    Calv said:
    ^
    What you could do is to source some more slopes to ensure yours are all the same shade. I have had a look on Bricklink and there is a large quantity of these slopes available in the USA. Part 4460b on Bricklink  will be the later variant. Part 4460a will be the older one and will doubless cost more. These parts are sought after and are priced accordingly.

    This part in Dark Red was re-released 2 years ago in set 41075 and the part is still available from Lego Bricks & Pieces. 

    But isn't the shade of Dark red different than that in the Cafe Corner?
  • Sven_FSven_F Member Posts: 17
    I am very surprised so little is known about old and new dark red.  It's not just slopes and it's not just production inconsistency or weathering.  The color mix intentionally changed at some point,  even lego calls it new dark red,  but bricklink doesn't acknowledge the difference. It's easy with slopes because the mold changed subsequently,  but jumpers or tiles use the same id so you never know which one you are getting.  

    I asked on eb weather the gg set uses new or old dark red for curtains,  but got no answer.  the easiest way to tell is by looking through the brick towards a light source. Light will shine through the old red plastic.   
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    Sven_F said:

    I asked on eb weather the gg set uses new or old dark red for curtains,  but got no answer.  the easiest way to tell is by looking through the brick towards a light source. Light will shine through the old red plastic.   
    In 2010 and 2011, TLG published their official colour palettes. In 2010, Colour ID 154 was shown as Dark Red; in 2011, it was shown as New Dark Red.

    In theory, that would mean that Green Grocer originally should have had parts in Dark Red, not New Dark Red.

    Then life gets complicated.

    TLG changing the name on the colour palette may or may not have coincided with the change of colour. Even if it did, were later sets produced using bricks that had been made before the colour change. And if not, what does "later" mean? An early set might've had Dark Red parts; a later one New Dark Red; or perhaps they're all nominally the same - but which?

    The colour is unique in that the name changed, but the colour ID remained the same. TLG sometimes discontinue a colour and create a new one, but they haven't renamed any other colour.

    As a guess, I wonder whether the colour didn't "change" - and why nobody ever has answers for what happened. Before you totally dismiss that comment because it's obviously not true, consider that it seems there have always been issues in maintaining the colour consistency of Dark Red - essentially, it isn't one colour but a whole load of them. Was New Dark Red therefore just another one (albeit unfortunately noticeably different), but the name was changed because a new method was used to obtain that colour in the hope of obtaining consistency in the future? In other words, would it have been more appropriate to call it "Stable Dark Red" or something similar. Whether or not TLG achieved that is a totally different issue, but it might explain why the name changed but not the ID in that it's supposed to be the same colour.

    Of course, TLG (and therefore Brickset) now use "New Dark Red" for older sets simply because the former generally shows the current equivalents.
    sid3windr
  • AdelecAdelec Member Posts: 171
    I have just just been building a cafe corner that came in a job lot of lego. I have just got to the roof and discovered there are equal numbers of 4460a and 4460b. I’m pretty sure they came with the original, as although the cafe corner was all mixed up in a huge box of lego, all the parts were there (but 3!) and part 1 of the instructions. I must say that the instructions on line for the second book are appalling. Even enlarging them was mostly guess work where tithe black and brown went! 
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