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Creator Expert

binaryeyebinaryeye Member Posts: 1,831
edited April 2014 in The Database
What is the reasoning behind splitting the Creator Expert sets across multiple categories? Is it because sets are functionally limited to a theme and subtheme? It seems odd to have sets clearly labeled as such by LEGO to not be included in that category when browsed to.

For reference, I believe these are all sets labeled Creator Expert and their current categories:
#10232 Palace Cinema (Advanced Models - Modular Buildings)
#10233 Horizon Express (Creator - Expert)
#10234 Sydney Opera House (Advanced Models - Buildings)
#10235 Winter Village Market (Seasonal - Winter Village)
#10241 Maersk Line Triple-E (Advanced Models - Maersk)
#10242 [Mini Cooper Mk. VII (Advanced Models - Vehicles)]
#10243 Parisian Restaurant (Advanced Models - Modular Buildings)
#10244 Fairground Mixer (Creator - Expert)
#10245 [Santa's Workshop (Seasonal - Winter Village)]

Based on the patterns here, it seems Horizon Express should be moved into Trains and Fairground Mixer into Advanced Models - Miscellaneous. While the categories would be subjective rather than based on LEGO's labeling, it would be consistent.

The ideal solution is an open-ended, "tag"-based categories system, but I realize that would likely involve a lot of work (e.g. rewriting the database structure) for something that doesn't apply to the majority of sets.

Comments

  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    edited April 2014
    given the limits of the current schema, I would think moving everything to Creator Expert (perhaps minus the trains) makes the most sense. Prior to the launch of that Theme by LEGO, these sets all were released under no theme or sub-brand at all. Clearly though, they are the predecessors of the Creator Expert theming, and thus back-filling them into that category makes the most sense.
  • emmtwosixemmtwosix Member Posts: 80
    edited April 2014
    Well, if we could have both, that would be best, but since we can only have one, I would leave it the way it is. I would rather have all the modular buildings labeled together and the winter village sets labeled together than all of those a bifurcated assortment of those, plus more, tossed into the Creator Expert mega-bin, even though it's not that big (yet.)

    It's more of a marketing term than anything, and they seem to be figuring things out as they go as much as anyone. Thematically, I think Brickset does a better job of sorting things than Lego does themselves. What the box says really isn't that big of a deal, where they're intended to be thematically holds more weight. I would put Horizon Express with other trains and Santa's Workshop with other winter village sets before I would store those two together.

    However, it would be nice if sets could belong to more than one theme & sub-theme, but I could also see that being a nightmare on the back-end. Maybe add an "Official Theme" category header that is searchable/sortable, yet separate from "Theme" and "Subtheme,"and leave everything else the way it is.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    ^ theme
    creator expert
    sub-themes: modular building, winter village, landmarks, trains, maersk, etc
  • emmtwosixemmtwosix Member Posts: 80
    ^not all of those were a part of the creator expert theme. Lego has basically added theme names to these product lines as they go...sometimes after the fact.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited April 2014
    It's a grey area and there are still some inconsistencies in the database as you've noticed.

    I'm open to suggestions as to how best to categorise them, but at the moment sets have one theme and one subtheme, as fields in the main sets database table. Doing anything else, e.g. a many:many relationship between sets and themes is certainly possible but would require the whole 'heart' of the database to be removed and reworked which would not be easy and for the handful of sets that would benefit from it, probably not worth the effort.

    Assigning 'Tags' is an idea that's been bandied about from time to time and maybe that would partially address the issue. It would certainly be much easier to add to the existing structure.

    The purist in me wants Creator Export sets to be categorised as such in the database: theme: Creator, subtheme: Expert, but because the nomenclature has been introduced years after sets of the same ilk were introduced (modulars, winter village etc.) it makes no sense to do so and I guess these sets should be moved elsewhere for consistency, or we move, for example, all Modulars to theme 'Creator', subtheme 'Expert/Modulars' given that LEGO has done so, according to the link @emmtwosix posted above.
  • AanchirAanchir Member Posts: 3,037
    edited May 2014
    emmtwosix said:

    ^not all of those were a part of the creator expert theme. Lego has basically added theme names to these product lines as they go...sometimes after the fact.

    But at the same time, Brickset doesn't always go by what theme a product was released in. A good example is BIONICLE. Many of the first BIONICLE sets were officially Technic sets, since BIONICLE was not its own theme in the beginning, but they're all listed in the BIONICLE theme for convenience's sake.

    The fact that the Creator Expert subtheme does not include all Creator Expert sets bothers me a great deal too. It seems to me that having "Modular Buildings" as a separate theme is a bit odd, since the original modular buildings were not a part of ANY theme (they were all released under LEGO Direct, but that's not really a theme). A big part of what Creator Expert did is take all these sets that originally were marketed and identified under no theme at all and gather them under one roof.

    I would not be opposed to retroactively labeling all other "themeless" LEGO Direct models like that under the Creator Expert subtheme. After all, Brickset already does that with the Designer Sets. Although these were the forerunners of the Creator theme as we now know it, they never actually carried Creator branding — rather, the Designer Sets, Inventor Sets, Technic, and "Creator" (which included what would today be labeled as Bricks & More) were entirely separate themes under the now-defunct "Make & Create" banner.

    If the Designer Sets and Inventor Sets can be retroactively put into the Creator theme, why can't we do the same for the Modular Buildings and Winter Village sets? While the Winter Village sets' subject matter is seasonal, the same is true of the Advent Calendars, and those are all sorted under their corresponding themes.

    In any case, treating the Modular Buildings as their own theme at least makes more sense than the way the database used to categorize them as "Town" sets despite that theme having ended over a dozen years ago. But there's no reason the Creator Expert subtheme should look anywhere near as desolate as it does at present.
    dougts
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited May 2014
    I've moved a few sets into the Advanced Models category, http://brickset.com/sets/theme-Advanced-Models, including EN/Maersk/HE trains and the winter village sets, so at least there's some consistency.

    I could live with changing them all to Creator Expert but how far back in time would it acceptable to 're-brand' them given that when the first few in the list were released 'Creator' didn't even exist?
  • AanchirAanchir Member Posts: 3,037
    Huw said:

    I've moved a few sets into the Advanced Models category, http://brickset.com/sets/theme-Advanced-Models, including EN/Maersk/HE trains and the winter village sets, so at least there's some consistency.

    I could live with changing them all to Creator Expert but how far back in time would it acceptable to 're-brand' them given that when the first few in the list were released 'Creator' didn't even exist?

    Very good question. I'm not entirely sure how you'd make that distinction.

    Another question: If the Modular Buildings branded as "Creator" are instead categorized as "Advanced Models" in the database, how come the same isn't true of #10190 Market Street from the Factory theme? I know some AFOLs have various reasons for deciding they don't consider it a modular building. After all, since it was only the second modular building, design rules like only using the classic two-dots-and-a-smile minifigure face for all modular buildings had not yet been set in stone. Nevertheless, it's clear that the LEGO Group does consider it a part of the series, based on the contents of set #10230 Mini-Modulars and ads from the instructions of #10185 Green Grocer. And it features many of the same advanced building techniques seen in the others, such as the curved staircase to get inside and the half-stud offset on some of the windows.
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    Huw said:

    I've moved a few sets into the Advanced Models category, http://brickset.com/sets/theme-Advanced-Models, including EN/Maersk/HE trains and the winter village sets, so at least there's some consistency.

    I could live with changing them all to Creator Expert but how far back in time would it acceptable to 're-brand' them given that when the first few in the list were released 'Creator' didn't even exist?

    I'd say what is currently in "Advanced Models" IS "Creator Expert" Just rename the category (since I don't believe "Advanced Models" was ever a LEGO theme/term anyway), and be done with it. Perhaps a few more items need to be moved in, but this would be the start that got you more than 80% of the way there.

  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    I'd be happy to do that. Any other views?
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Administrator Posts: 6,755
    Common sense argues against rebranding sets in the database as Creator Expert if LEGO hadn't started to use the "Creator Expert" label themselves at time of release; anyway, in a couple of years time LEGO will kill Creator Expert and call it something else, so do we rebrand again then ? ;-)

    "Advanced sets" is a description, not a theme. It can therefore contain anything or nothing. I'd keep pre-Creator Expert sets in the "Advanced Models" category in the absence of an 'official' LEGO label. Sets released under the Creator Expert subtheme should be labelled as such in the database. And in future when LEGO rebrands Creator Expert as Creator AFOL (!) or whatever then we can label sets released under this brand as such in the database. It's messy, but at least it's accurate, and there's always the search box if people don't know which subtheme to look in....
    emmtwosix
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Member Posts: 2,696
    Since the modulars and creator expert themes seem to have 2 things in common. They have a large number of pieces and are usually labeled 16+ on the box.

    Could you have a category for sets over say, 1000 pieces ( 10190 is the smallest modular at 1248 pieces ) or maybe a 16+ category? Either way, they could be listed in set number order with a picture so people could find what they are looking for.
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Administrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    I feel branding all related sets with our own logical system is more right than having a new theme flowed down through history, especially seeing as they'll likely rebrand the rebrand as soon as they can find another way to monetize the change.
    emmtwosix
  • dougtsdougts Member Posts: 4,110
    i don't really care what its called so long as all the things that should logically be grouped together end up that way
  • DeyorewDeyorew Member Posts: 8
    I also like the idea of changing the "Advanced Models" to "Creator Expert" as the main Theme for all the sets you have in Advanced Models. I have collected these since 3450 Statue of Liberty and its really the majority of sets I buy through the year. So I have great interest on your labeling with this group.

    I like the idea of calling it all Creator Expert because I think LEGO will use this label for a while and its clearly on the box moving forward. Also I don't think you should be calling a set one thing when it is clearly labeled differently within LEGO group. For instance Horizon Express. I understand relabeling a set here or there, but this Creator Expert is clearly a defined series within LEGO group now. If they were to release any of the older Advanced Models, it would get the Creator Expert label.
  • DeyorewDeyorew Member Posts: 8
    One last comment... I just noticed LEGO Shop At Home has already re-designated older Modulars like Pet Shop and others like Sopwith Camel that are still available as "Creator"
    dougts
  • MatthewMatthew Administrator Posts: 3,714
    LEGO [email protected] has actually used a system for a while now where sets can appear in more than one category, which would probably be the ideal situation for Brickset @Huw...
  • AleyditaAleydita Member Posts: 952
    Yeah a many to many relationship seems to be the only sensible way forward.

    *cracks whip* :D
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    ^* "which would not be easy and for the handful of sets that would benefit from it, probably not worth the effort."
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Administrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    LEGO uses "Hard to Find.". Why don't we go with "Hard to Group?" :o)
    timinchicagohewmanDanGProcaosidersdd
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,526
    Yellowcastle said:

    LEGO uses "Hard to Find.". Why don't we go with "Hard to Group?" :o)

    That just means "Buy from us" though :-)
  • AanchirAanchir Member Posts: 3,037
    edited June 2014
    This is somewhat related to the above discussion... How come Cuusoo and LEGO Ideas are being treated as different themes? They're effectively one and the same, as evidenced by the "LEGO Ideas #006" label on #21108 and the "LEGO Ideas #008" label on #21110. Furthermore, shop.LEGO.com places #21102, #21103, and #21104 in the Ideas theme. Obviously the boxes will only be labeled with one brand or the other, but by that logic LEGO Castle and LEGO Kingdoms should be treated as separate themes. And it would create obvious complications if a "LEGO Cuusoo" set gets reissued with "LEGO Ideas" branding, a very real possibility with some of the more recent models.

    For that matter, why the leading "LEGO" in the theme name? We don't do that for LEGO Factory, LEGO Fusion, or even LEGO Cuusoo, and shop.LEGO.com just has the theme listed as "Ideas".
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,526
    Yes, they should just be rolled into the one "Ideas" section, now that is what Lego are calling them.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited July 2014
    Agreed -- done.
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