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How do you know when to jump into selling?

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  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    I have not made MOCs only existing sets in the joblots. To make a high value MOC you need modern special bricks to make them unique on ebay. I am thinking of making a large house as i have a lot of spare lego.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited June 2014
    You're confused, and worse, you're confusing some people who are considering getting into reselling. There is RRP, new and used, each of varying degrees.

    RRP: A fixed price point at which you can/could buy a set from retailers
    New: Basically an unopened set
    Used: Basically an opened set

    Any set, used or new can appreciate above RRP, depending on condition, completeness, etc. and what the market is willing to pay for it.

    A used set will never even come close to the same value of the same new set.

    Example: Emerald Night was $100 RRP. You can easily get more than that for a used set right now. You can get WAY more than that for a new set. No matter how well you take care of your "used" Emerald Night, it will never be more valuable than a "new" one in a sealed box.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    edited June 2014
    Norlego said:

    I find people will pay more for used lego than new...

    @Norlego is in Norway so I think this is just a language issue. "I find used, retired sets will still appreciate from the MSRP" as a case for the OP building the set and still being able to profit later. And of course everyone else is also correct: value of used, retired set < value of MISB retired set, if maximizing profit is the goal.
    madforLEGO
  • SuperTrampSuperTramp City 17Member Posts: 1,021
    How come is ebay account says he's up in Scotland then?
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    ^and how did you find my ebay account...

    I sell in norway and the uk.

    I am not confusing people thinking of reselling. The OP has bought one set. He can either keep it sealed or play with it. But what price will he get 3 years down the line is unknown. But he could get more than he paid even if he played with the set. So he wont loose anything that was my point. If he knew the market you now what to buy.
  • roxioroxio UKMember Posts: 1,345
    edited June 2014
    ^ reselling on ebay uk you really should be business registered. HMRC will catch up eventually.....
  • SuperTrampSuperTramp City 17Member Posts: 1,021
    edited June 2014
    Norlego said:

    ^and how did you find my ebay account...

    Err, when you made a thread trying to sell some sets. you linked your ebay account.
    Pitfall69
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 9,667
    Norlego said:

    ^and how did you find my ebay account...

    I sell in norway and the uk.

    I am not confusing people thinking of reselling. The OP has bought one set. He can either keep it sealed or play with it. But what price will he get 3 years down the line is unknown. But he could get more than he paid even if he played with the set. So he wont loose anything that was my point. If he knew the market you now what to buy.

    Obviously what is being said is missing in translation or interpretation.
    When someone says a general statement such as 'I find people will pay more for used lego than new...', the interpretation is this:
    'I can get more for a used Town hall than if I sold a new town hall (MISB) at the same time, regardless of time in production'. I doubt this is possible, and if so, you are finding gullible people and I have a few Death stars Id like to sell them then, heck I'll even break the seals and build it once so it can get that increased 'used' value :-)

    Now if you are saying that eventually a used retired set will sell better than its MSRP when it was out, that can occur (see Market Street, Cafe Corner, Green Grocer, Fire Brigade even). However, if you say such a generic 'I find people will pay more for used lego than new...' statement you are going to get quizzical looks from this bunch.

    A better description is needed when making such a statement IMO.
  • HokieJoe99HokieJoe99 Member Posts: 349
    ^As long as it takes to build a Death Star, if I wanted another one, I might pay more for a used already built one just to save my time and fingers.
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    ^how true. That was a long time ago... You have a good memory...

    As for reselling. I am in a grey zone. I build for fun as a hobby with my offspring. I do let hmrc now i sell as that is only fair. I sell at carboot sales and gumtree. On ebay i use a private account but i have played with the lego.
  • roxioroxio UKMember Posts: 1,345
    edited June 2014
    Norlego said:

    I dont resell new lego. For me the joy is buying a joblot for £50-100 and selling it on for £200 and upwards. It is fun to buy a bargain. And after over 30 joblots i have yet to make a loss...

    Carboots I grant are a grey area, but the above clearly isn't a grey area regarding the reselling on ebay, more like black and white. If you are registered with HMRC thats fine as you will be paying tax on profits.
    If your not correctly registered ebay uk will force you to one day, often prompted by ebayers reporting you, or a buyer may have a bad experience and report you direct to HMRC who can backdate owed tax.
    I know several people who have learnt this the hard way so be careful.
  • DadDad UKMember Posts: 815
    ^ I really can't see why people don't register. So you've got to file a tax return, big deal?
    And once registered there's that many costs you can offset against tax that you have to be turning over half serious money to show a profit.
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    I am registred so that is ok. But i and my children play with the lego before i sell it. So that is a grey area. I didnt do it before i got children. I do sell a lot of my private stuff on ebay too.
    I dont sell much lego on ebay as i am moving away from ebay. To much hassle these days.
  • roxioroxio UKMember Posts: 1,345
    ^ only trying to be helpful, but if you're registered and have been told you're in a grey area by HMRC you might be ok, although you still have to file a tax return ?

    But stating on a forum, that you've linked to an ebay account currently selling approx £800 of Lego, that you've bought over 30 joblots for at least £50 each and resold them and never made a loss, certainly paints a picture of knowingly purchasing for resale. Hence HMRC would want their cut on the profit. If telling them that its been played with and used gets you out of it I might try telling them I've displayed (i.e. used) my sealed sets before reselling so I'm in a grey area as well :)
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    edited June 2014
    I'm trying to figure out what the "grey" area is? I know doing business is different in other countries. In the US, it doesn't matter if you are selling new stuff or old. If you make a certain number of transactions or reach a certain threshold, PayPal or whoever are supposed to report these transactions to the IRS (US). Are you saying that because you play with your Lego and sell it later; that is the"grey" area?
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,557
    In the uk, if you buy to sell, you pay tax (even used stuff). If you sell your old stuff off, you don't.

    I imagine that selling old stuff off is tax exempt as you normally make a loss for clothes, books, CDs, etc if you bought them new.

    Hence a grey area if you buy a job lot, play with it and then sell it. Was the intention to sell there? If you turn over a lot of used Lego, tax man would say yes.
    Pitfall69
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    Which is why i declare it. (to be safe...)

    I do however think others are confusing things too. To list is not the same as selling.... I only pay tax on what i sell not on what i list.... But i would gladely take £800....
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited June 2014
    rocao said:

    Norlego said:

    I find people will pay more for used lego than new...

    @Norlego is in Norway so I think this is just a language issue. "I find used, retired sets will still appreciate from the MSRP" as a case for the OP building the set and still being able to profit later. And of course everyone else is also correct: value of used, retired set < value of MISB retired set, if maximizing profit is the goal.
    The quote was this "I find people will pay more for used lego than new..." which doesn't leave much room for interpretation. Anyway, even if it were to take on the concept of "I find used, retired sets will still appreciate from the MSRP," I still think it's misleading at best, and wrong in the majority of cases.

    Of course there are collectible exceptions, but I'm of the mindset that a used, retired set is more likely NOT to break MSRP. In other words, if you open a set, there's a good chance you won't get MSRP for it no matter how long you hold onto it.

    Norlego‌ then stated "So he wont loose anything that was my point." I contend that if we're talking straight $ here (and no some esoteric play value), he may very well lose something. The OP broke open his TLR train. I think there's a really good chance he won't ever be able to get $100 for it again, ever.
  • monkeymonkey Member Posts: 235
    I agree that it is a grey area. It is perfectly normal (i.e. not business-like) for someone to buy a selection of lego bricks, play with them for a while, build something, get bored, sell it, and buy another selection of lego bricks. And so on.

    Its not like lego is a collection of 2x2s and 2x4s in red, yellow, white, and blue anymore, the sheer variety of bricks makes the above scenario very legitimate, even with the original intention to sell.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    CCC said:

    In the uk, if you buy to sell, you pay tax (even used stuff). If you sell your old stuff off, you don't.

    I imagine that selling old stuff off is tax exempt as you normally make a loss for clothes, books, CDs, etc if you bought them new.

    Hence a grey area if you buy a job lot, play with it and then sell it. Was the intention to sell there? If you turn over a lot of used Lego, tax man would say yes.

    This is why I asked the question :)

  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    edited June 2014
    As CCC pointed out its not a grey area, it's about the intent at time of purchase. If when bought you intend to sell in the future you're acting as a business and HMRC could claw any taxes due back. You'll also be subject to DSR if doing anything other than online auctions as it makes no difference if it's used or new and if it was used by you or someone else. This is why they make specific exclusions such as cars.
  • monkeymonkey Member Posts: 235
    edited June 2014
    And if they make specific exceptions such as cars, they do so for a reason. Is that not possible that the same reason may apply to things other than cars?

    I have a child, who wants a toy. I decide to buy Lego because I know that when my child no longer wants to play with his toy, I will be able to sell it and so won't lose money. When I do buy the Lego, I therefore have intention to sell it later. Doesn't seem that I am acting as a business.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,557
    ^ The intention there is that you are buying the toy for your child to play with it, and that you will be able to get some money back later on, presumably when they are too old for it.

    However, if you buy a toy to sell again in a few weeks, but allow you child to help check it is complete and play with it for a very short period of time, then this will probably be viewed as trading.

    There is a grey area about how long is enough time? Collectors come across this problem all the time - when they buy something for their collection, then sell it later as they have got a better one in the meantime.
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    I think lego is difficult as you use it. If you buy things and dont use them, then you are buying to sell.
    Most people at carboots sales buy to sell. But it is difficult to claim this object was bought for resale and this one was not.
    I keep my lego for longer than 2-3 weeks. Some i have for years.
    These days children build a set 1-3 times and then ignore it. So to sell it after a few months is sensible.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,557
    edited June 2014
    ^ It is difficult. The tax man will look at the frequency you do this too. If you regularly buy, add value by putting sets together and sell (even if you play with them), you will be considered as trading. If you buy, play with it and sell for no profit, then there will be no tax to pay.

    If you are adding value by sorting sets out or putting them together, that is taxable.

    Which is why, of course, it is best to be upfront about what you are doing and ask.
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    Not sure asking the taxman is a good idea. But to declare your earnings is wise. I declare more than i earn to be on the safe side. And to avoid questions being asked about petty details. (was that jumper sold for profit or not... If it is declared then no worries.)
  • SuperTrampSuperTramp City 17Member Posts: 1,021
    edited June 2014
    You declare more than you earn?

    So you give a false account of your profits when you do a self assessment.

    You do realise you can earn £10k until you start paying tax?
  • KingDaveKingDave UKMember Posts: 967
    edited June 2014
    Recently I discovered one set (#3774 Bridge) I own is worth about 10 times what I paid for it. This has prompted a re-think on my no re-selling policy. If I find I have a set worth considerably more than I paid for it (4x or more) I will probably sell it in Nov/Dec and put the money back into Lego. It is a bit random which recent sets will appreciate in value due to all the factors listed already, but there is always the odd set that the 'pro' resellers pass over that becomes popular later on. I have a couple of early Ninjago sets that are rapidly going up in value for a start.

    Having said all that, I really hope that my #10188 Death Star does not increase in value that much because I would love to be able to see my nephew build it in about 3-4 years time (after I have persuaded my brother-in-law to buy it off me). Maybe I need to buy another one now, just to cover all bases?
  • NatebwNatebw Tampa BayMember Posts: 339
    Man, this whole area is way more complicated than I thought! I'm steering clear for now, but will hold onto everything just in case.
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    Not really complicated but quite a few posters have made things more complcated than need be. I suppose I was one of those....
    Anyway have fun with your set and keep it in good nick. You might get back what you paid for it in 3 years time. It is a fact that people will pay more than sets cost new if it is a popular set. I sell used lego for more than new cost. Of course you have no idea what will rise in value and what will not.
    You can play it safe and buy cheap joblots. Cant go much wrong there...
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,302
    ^You are likely to get people complaining about your use of the term new there you should probably say more than RRP or something - New implies the exact same set but sealed rather than RRP.
  • NatebwNatebw Tampa BayMember Posts: 339
    @Norlego‌ Can you define this? "buy cheap joblots"

    I am not sure if I understand what that means.

    Thanks.
  • monkeymonkey Member Posts: 235
    ^ I've seen there are auctions selling Lego by kilograms, they appear to be the cheapest!
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    Norlego said:

    I sell used lego for more than new cost.

    Clarify for me, you're talking about two completely different sets right? For example, today, I can sell the Emerald Night used for much more than I can sell the Sopwith Camel brand new/sealed, even though both were/are RRP of $100. Is this what you're trying to say?
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,302
    ^I'm fairly convinced that norlego keeps using the term "new cost" instead of some form of "retail price"
    Pitfall69dougts
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    Natebw said:

    @Norlego‌ Can you define this? "buy cheap joblots"

    I am not sure if I understand what that means.

    Thanks.

    "joblots" seems to be a European word. In the US, we don't use this term. He's just talking about buying used Lego sets (usually a box of Lego or multiple sets in a lot) from Craigslist, garage sales or off the internet

  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405

    Norlego said:

    I sell used lego for more than new cost.

    Clarify for me, you're talking about two completely different sets right? For example, today, I can sell the Emerald Night used for much more than I can sell the Sopwith Camel brand new/sealed, even though both were/are RRP of $100. Is this what you're trying to say?
    Shib said:

    ^I'm fairly convinced that norlego keeps using the term "new cost" instead of some form of "retail price"

    Yeah, I think he means he sell a used Emerald Night for more than it was at RRP.

  • roxioroxio UKMember Posts: 1,345
    edited June 2014
    ^
    He has also established that he is trading and submitting a UK tax return, so to comply with UK law he needs a eBay Business account which, as @cheshirecat stated, means DSR and also accepting returns.
    Benefits include Top Rated / Premium service badge, FVF discount and as I can certainly vouch for, increased sales.

    If also selling personal items then a separate private account is best.

    http://pages.ebay.co.uk/businesscentre/identification/
  • SuperTrampSuperTramp City 17Member Posts: 1,021
    ^Ive been a registered business on ebay around 7 years but i don't understand what you have to do about having a private account. do you have to have a different Paypal address/account than the business one, that would also mean you have to have a different bank account?
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    *natebw
    Natebw said:

    @Norlego‌ Can you define this? "buy cheap joblots". I am not sure if I understand what that means.

    As an example of a good joblot, look at this one on Ebay:
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LEGO-City-7744-7945-7993-7641-7633-7210-7237-7738-4210-extras-Bundle-/221469464620?pt=UK_Construction_Toys_Kits&hash=item33909bd82c

    It is very expensive, but if you got it for around £150 then you should be able to sell it on for double.

    *roxio I have not sold much on Ebay, so not really "trading" as that implies you are selling things... And to have a business account and only sell 0-5 items a month is not worth while. (I sell via other outlets.) So maybe better to stop business selling on Ebay and comply with the law of the land. (Just wish everybody would keep to the speedlimits when driving, or is that to much to ask....) To pay £20 a month to sell 5 items is just not worth it.

    *TheLoneTensor Hope this is clear: I sell used lego for more than the retail price. Some retired sets do sell for more than they cost new. But difficult to know upfront... The OP has bought one set he plans to sell on, nobody can say for sure he will lose money when he sells it in 3 years time. All I have said is he might get back his money if he keeps the lego in good nick. And if he does not, it is not the end of the world as he has played with the lego.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited June 2014
    Ok, so we're clear that you're talking about "some retired sets" that are used do sell for more than they cost new. This is possible, yes.

    My contention is still this, I think most used sets will never sell more than they cost new, ever. I believe that even if you merely break the seal on anything, you won't be able to sell it for more than "new cost"/RRP/MSRP except for a few collectible sets. Start building and playing with it? Then you can pretty much kiss the chance of recouping your cost goodbye.

    Now I love the TLR train as much as the next guy, probably even more, but giving the impression to the OP that down the road there's a chance he'll get more than $100 for a used/played with version of it is just really false hope.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    All that said, OP, enjoy the set, it's a really fun set to build, and your kids should certainly be enjoying the heck out of it.
    Natebw
  • roxioroxio UKMember Posts: 1,345
    @Norlego‌ what's the £20 a month for?
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    I think by now, the OP probably knows it isn't easy to just "jump into" selling Lego :)
    Natebwroxio
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    roxio said:

    @Norlego‌ what's the £20 a month for?


    The monthly subscription. You need that to list.
  • NorlegoNorlego ScotlandMember Posts: 449
    As a guide should we all list sets that we have sold for more the rrp? I have sold quite a few?
  • roxioroxio UKMember Posts: 1,345
    Norlego said:

    roxio said:

    @Norlego‌ what's the £20 a month for?


    The monthly subscription. You need that to list.
    Only if you have a shop, which is not compulsory as a business seller. It only suits if you have a lot of listings.

  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,557
    Norlego said:

    As a guide should we all list sets that we have sold for more the rrp? I have sold quite a few?

    No. The list is fairly meaningless, as 1.05 x rrp is very different to 2.5 x rrp.


  • BobflipBobflip Member Posts: 520

    ^Ive been a registered business on ebay around 7 years but i don't understand what you have to do about having a private account. do you have to have a different Paypal address/account than the business one, that would also mean you have to have a different bank account?

    You can simultaneously use the same PayPal account for both a business and a private eBay account - I am currently doing this. I think I read that you can use one PayPal account for up to 5 accounts, but I haven't checked this.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288

    My contention is still this, I think most used sets will never sell more than they cost new, ever. I believe that even if you merely break the seal on anything, you won't be able to sell it for more than "new cost"/RRP/MSRP except for a few collectible sets. Start building and playing with it? Then you can pretty much kiss the chance of recouping your cost goodbye.

    Now I love the TLR train as much as the next guy, probably even more, but giving the impression to the OP that down the road there's a chance he'll get more than $100 for a used/played with version of it is just really false hope.

    Norlego didn't state it was a universal rule, but he was vague. Your caution is warranted that not all sets in used condition post-EOL will sell for more than their original MSRP.

    At the same time, I don't think it's as big a long shot as you are claiming with statements like "kiss the chance... goodbye" and "really false hope". You say it simply won't happen outside of a "few collectible sets".

    Even if we limit ourselves to just looking at train sets of the past decade, Norlego's claim of > MSRP for a used set after 3 years of retirement is true for the majority, and more than just a 'few'. I don't have the hard data on how soon some of these achieved higher than MSRP values, so I'll just state whether it's currently the case since you said "never".

    9467 Ghost Train: false, but very early - 7 months into retirement
    10219 Maersk Train: true
    7597 Western Train Chase: false, but very close - 2.5 years into retirement
    10194 Emerald Night: true
    4841 Hogwarts: true
    10183 Hobby Train: true
    7897 Passenger Train: false
    10173 Holiday Train: true
    10133 BNSF: true
    FollowsClosely
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