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21110 Research Institute

2456719

Comments

  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,451
    ^I can see the logic in that, but it seems daft so soon after saying with the Ghostbusters set that one project of a theme to break their own rule, but then again they might just say that only applied to Cuusoo and they aren't sure about keeping it for Ideas.
  • emilewskiemilewski CT, USAMember Posts: 476
    I for one would love to see this be an all female set, as I want to give this to my six year old daughter who would love it and hopefully be inspired by it as she already loves science. In Cuusoo this was the "Female Minifigures Set" and that is what I voted for and that (and 10,000 other people) is what was wanted. If you want TLG to produce a mixed gender occupations set, then by all means put something on Lego Ideas and call it "Mixed Gender occupations" and get 10,000 for that project.
    MommaLa
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,981
    Honestly, it is the next review I am most interested in for personal reasons. We want a Doctor Who set. We really want a Doctor Who set. ;-)
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,451
    @tamamahm‌ when I saw the cuusoo will now allow Doctor Who projects I was quite excited, but now I'm not really that bothered. If one does get through and the set looks good I might get it, but I'd be far more excited if the BTTF Train gets through, that would be a day one purchase for me, and I almost always wait ages.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017
    It's the birds for me.
    TechnicNickbinaryeyejasory2josh
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,451
    ^The birds look amazing, but considering what they are up against I think I've written them off (so I don't get my hopes up of getting one)
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    The wording at the start was blurry but I seem to remember a discussion here and I certainly took from it that each review period would provide at most 1 production run however sets could be carried over as a second choice but their production would be at the expense of a production slot from the following reviews. We're going to have had a lot of ideas sets released in short time if this is august and we're expecting the exosuit before then. I wonder if this one might get a bigger production run given the nature of it and the price.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    Birds for me too, never had any interest in Dr who and sherlock (the TV show) isn't iconic enough for me to want it even though I avidly watch it.
  • ThegoThego UKMember Posts: 264
    CCC said:

    If it is three minifigs in a predominantly male setting

    Should settings be gendered? Isn't the point of the female pack to show that there is no such thing as a gendered setting and trying to redress any imbalance?
    Aanchirjwsmart
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017
    Thego said:

    CCC said:

    If it is three minifigs in a predominantly male setting

    Should settings be gendered?
    In lego sets or real life? How many men would you expect to see in a beauticians, for example? If lego do a beauticians set (which they are close to in the new Friends mall) should there be 50% men in there?
    Thego said:


    Isn't the point of the female pack to show that there is no such thing as a gendered setting and trying to redress any imbalance?

    They may have had the intention of trying to redress the imbalance overall - and so included things like postwomen, but lego have taken away the gender title and made this a science / research set, and then (presumably) placed only females in it, and so portray scientific research as a female only career. Thus doing the opposite of redressing imbalance.
  • legomattlegomatt Member Posts: 2,548
    edited June 2014
    Based on what I see from the project page (the top three vignettes) I like the set, especially if the vignettes end up expanded on to sit within an all encompassing room space.

    I haven't the slightest interest in the whole political correctness/gender targeting/over/under/mis/representation of science debate (or whatever it is) aspects of the whole thing. For me, it's purely about the Lego. I don't care what label they (or others) stick on it. If i like a set (and can afford it), I'll buy.

    The figs aside, I think those mini builds are rather clever. If the figs are relatively unique and nicely done, then (for me) it'll be like getting 3 female CMF's with a brick-built science/classroom/lab backdrop ready-made, and if under £20 too, that's a win-win-win Lego set for me.

    I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with this. (and hoping it doesn't spark some kneejerk toys/gender war in the wider news, as nobody ever wins when that happens).
    LostInTranslationInfinityman
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,098
    There have been male scientist minifigs that haven't been "crazy". A recent one that comes to mind is the researcher/scientist in the Arctic Base Camp. But yeah, I'm not a fan of "Gender Power" type things and an all female based scientist set reeks of that.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited June 2014
    Wouldn't it be funny if they released the set and it came with occupations like housecleaner, ironer, clothes washer & sandwich maker?

    Too soon?
    FollowsCloselygraphiteVortex
  • PaperballparkPaperballpark Near ManchesterMember Posts: 4,175
    Oohh *sucks breath in*
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited June 2014

    I think though, the issue is neither friends nor disney princess provides a good impression of what girls should be aiming to become when they grow up. The female minifigure set provides images of female figures doing actual proper, inspirational (?) jobs. Im not saying i agree with that, but I suspect that was the thinking.

    It's not like the "boy" targeted themes create these role models either, unless we are expecting boys to grow up to be Jedis, Ninjas, Turtles, Superheros, Knights, or Galaxy troopers. LEGO, like most toys, are about fantasy, not reality. Really the only exceptions to this are CITY and Friends, and I would say thus far Friends has done a much better job of promoting diverse and positive role models than CITY does. Friends give girls scientists, designers, veterinarions, etc. while 95% of the denizens of CITY are either police, fire, or crooks.

    I just think it would be a shame for LEGO to decide to produce such a unique set promoting scientific careers, then decide to only target it to half the population.

  • InfinitymanInfinityman United StatesMember Posts: 123
    Since my wife and I are scientists, and we have a daughter, I couldn't be more happy that this set will see production!

    When the scientist CMF came out in series 11, I bought one for every woman I know who works in anything remotely like science. And they were all thrilled to have a fig that matched how they saw themselves: as a woman and a scientist. Not that a CMF can be a role model, but I liken it to representations of women in media. It truly does help to see an archetype with which you can identify.

    I spend a lot of time with my kids (girl and boys) explaining that activities (and toys like LEGO) don't have to be for just one gender. It's an uphill battle, however, given the messages they often get through friends and pop culture, no matter how careful we are. Thus, I am happy to see a set that reinforces the very lesson I'm trying to get across: science is for everyone. My boys will see scientists and be excited. My daughter will see scientists who are like her and be inspired.
    lordzarak
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017
    ^And isn't it a shame that boys cannot identify with a positive representation of a male scientist too?
    FollowsCloselyAdeelZubair
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,981
    ^ Too often I make that exact same comment in regards to female representation. I love the cool female Ninja my girls can imagine being. Oh wait. There is not one.

    As was stated, there is a male scientist in the arctic theme. It is not much, but That is so often the sort of representation I have for my girls within Lego sets. Not much, or one character. I really enjoy the lines that have a bit better representation.




  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited June 2014
    I don't fault LEGO for populating Ninjago with almost all male figures just as I don't fault them for having almost no males in Friends. It falls exactly in line with who they are selling the sets too. I suspect 90%+ of Ninjago sets are going to boys, just like 90%+ of Friends sets are going to girls. We may not like those facts, but that is just the reality of it.

    As I stated previously in this thread, in themes that are targeted toward both sexes, the representation seems pretty well balanced. The new mixer is 6 of each. Winter village and Modulars have both been close to 50/50. As a theme (Ideas/Cuusoo) which has thus far been generally gender-neutral (and generally pro-adult), it would be a shame to see LEGO take such a different tack.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017
    ^^ it is fairly easy to convert most male minifigs into female by changing the heads. The reverse is not so, due to the boobs and curves that are printed. For many torsos that is not necessary. Some torso need to have gender specific printing, but many don't. I said it at the time of the CMF scientist, there is not a huge difference between a man and a woman in a lab coat. Similarly, there is not a big difference between a male and female post worker. Why not use a single torso for both, let the buyer decide.

    Take a plain torso and put a female head on it, and hair. Does it look male or female without the torso printing? To me, it looks female.

    We could have a more diverse Lego society if heads were male one side, female the other, and where necessary two hairpieces are included. I'm all for gender specific printing when it comes to dresses and so on, where it is more natural to have it.

    For example, the CMF plumber looks great with a female head and hair, we have a man and a woman that work as a team in our set up.

    If the torso in this set end up neutral, I'll probably buy two sets and mix up the heads to get a decent team. If just female, I'll probably just get one. And then add a man in a suit for the director of the institute. :-)

    And for similar reasons, I wish they'd keep yellow / flesh printing off torsos unless it is really needed. That way, you can add city figs to licensed displays by changing the heads, or vice versa.

    The CMF police constable is a classic example, a small amount of yellow skin showing that is not necessary.
    Whereas the previously mentioned plumber, no skin showing so ideal to be converted to a fleshie. Sometimes you'd think Lego don't want people to change things from the way they are put together in their instructions.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited June 2014
    I think @CCC just likes writing boobs and curves :)

    And as for the CMF plumber, there was a greatly missed comedic opportunity for flesh there :)
  • InfinitymanInfinityman United StatesMember Posts: 123
    @CCC Trust me, the boys get that message from me AND Lego AND the culture. No worries there!
  • graphitegraphite USMember Posts: 3,270
    tamamahm said:

    ^ Too often I make that exact same comment in regards to female representation. I love the cool female Ninja my girls can imagine being. Oh wait. There is not one.

    You're right there isn't one... there are 3

    http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?M=cas212
    http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?M=cas058
    http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?M=njo012
    Pitfall69
  • lordzaraklordzarak OH, United StatesMember Posts: 329
  • graphitegraphite USMember Posts: 3,270
    edited June 2014
    ^ ah. Didn't know X was a female. Guess I didn't notice it when I built that mech (which is a really cool set).
  • emmtwosixemmtwosix Member Posts: 80
    edited June 2014
    ^^^ & ^^
    Samurai and ninja are different (really, almost opposites) so technically, there are still three at most - perhaps only two if Nya is excluded, seeing as how she was secretly Samurai X (iirc)
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    Spoiler!
  • emmtwosixemmtwosix Member Posts: 80
    Too late, can't edit :)
  • VenunderVenunder Nottingham, UK.Member Posts: 2,603
    I think the female minifig science institute set is long overdue.
    If they have alternate builds for the Dino Fossil I will be having multiple sets and at £19.99 it will not break my wallet.
    Rather than just a display model, like the other Ideas sets, this one fits right into my MOC building supplies.
    We also need many more Lego female scientists, and doctors etc.

    Go to any UK Hospital Laboratory and most of the new scientific staff are female.
    More female Doctors are qualified year by year and will soon exceed qualifying male Doctors, if they do not already.

    Lego should avoid over-representing female features like cleavage and hips except where it is appropriate for the figure.
    Such as figures with beach wear, sports wear or evening wear.
  • caperberrycaperberry LondonMember Posts: 2,226
    edited June 2014
    There are several gender issues being discussed here and I don't intend to weigh in, but just thought I'd clarify two of the issues, since some posters seem to be merging the two in their comments. They both relate to what I'll call gender disparity, i.e. an imbalance of male vs female minifigs. Research Institute goes some way to balancing gender disparity across the entire LEGO range of minifigs, but as an example of gender disparity within a single set it is poor because it contains 100% one sex. A criticism of the Friends theme that I've heard quite a few times is that the gender disparity is worse than 'boys' themes because there are barely any males in Friends. Whether gender disparity in toys is actually a problem depends of course on your standpoint.

    If you've not read it before, this article is very interesting as it actually does some historical number crunching.
    http://thinkingbrickly.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/lego-gender-gap.html
    Redbullgivesuwindbluedragon
  • RedbullgivesuwindRedbullgivesuwind Brickset's Secret HeadquatersMember Posts: 2,011
    I will certainly be buying this to add to my collection. However I don't want to see male figures added because that isn't what I voted for. I voted for a female line of minifigurers who aren't obsessed with clothes, boys etc. While lego have made a move to make lines more gender neutral or balanced (some friends sets and the CMF and Agents). There is still a large lack, to me, of female figures. Especially doing more varied roles. This is something that I think this set, and hopefully a line will start to be able to correct.

    This is especially needed within science as there is a loss of female scientists in a number of roles http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23643-women-in-science-how-can-we-plug-the-leaking-pipeline.html?full=true#.U44yCdq9KSM.
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16331-the-lack-of-female-einsteins-is-all-down-to-numbers.html#.U44z4tq9KSM. Lego is a way of starting to address that balance.

    However, I also think that having a sole female line is not a great way of solving what is becoming an increasing gender divide and that it is not entirely down to companies but parents/peers as well. Lego as the 2nd/3rd largest company has the chance to effect real change by making a much more even distribution of female characters in the toy lines where it is able too. This has nothing to do with pandering to "political correctness" but just representing real life for example in the city line hospitals with female paramedics and doctors or the police lines. I struggle with the argument that because there are more females in a set some how a boy is not going to play with it or visa versa. Children will play with anything as long as it is fun and interests them, sparking their imagination. It is the adults that define a child's position "oh if it has x gender in it. Little Stephen/Cynthia simply won't touch it".

    it is for parents to force a change in attitudesthrough their spending power and frankly in many cases change their attitude. In the same way that if people want to see women being told they need to look a certain way they need to stop buying the magazines that tell them they should be. If they only purchase toys with a gender balance (where possible). Then toy makers will start to produce toys which reflect society, film makers will make films with more female sole leads. Companies aren't moral and appealing to their good nature won't work. Appealing to companies wallet will make it walk off a cliff if you want it too.

    Sorry for the essay
    JenniInfinityman
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017
    ^ there is then the dilemma that if you buy this set you are more than happy to buy single sex sets, which will suggest to them they should make more of them.
  • MommaLaMommaLa Member Posts: 21
    CCC aren't most sets single sexed anyway? Outside of City it's hard to get females for girls who don't do Friends.

    If lego was to change this set from all female, which is what was voted on, to mixed gendered the backlash wouldn't be good. As a mum who saw my other geeky mums vote for this for our daughters, and themselves because they were excited as hell, it would destroy the goodwill that was built. And annoy a ton of little girls who wanted this.

    For me as an AFOL I collect such limited lines, gender matters little. But my 7 yr old is always excited to get more female minifigs, so yeah we'll take 3-4 here.
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,981
    graphite said:

    tamamahm said:

    ^ Too often I make that exact same comment in regards to female representation. I love the cool female Ninja my girls can imagine being. Oh wait. There is not one.

    You're right there isn't one... there are 3

    http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?M=cas212
    http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?M=cas058
    http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?M=njo012
    Obviously, I needed to be more specific that I can not enter a Lego shop and expect to find a Lego female Ninja.
    The one in white was sold back in 1999, yet despite a hugely successful line of Ninjas we can not find a single female.

    Nya is not a Ninja.

    Really, I am okay with some lines being more gender specific, but really would have loved to see a few more themed lines like MF and HP or CMF that have a bit of a spread in characters.


    CCC, in every day life there are general difference in how clothes fit and hang on men and women. Many in science and tech do NOT wear lab coats. I did not. A generic torso becomes less realistic in many cases.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444

    I think though, the issue is neither friends nor disney princess provides a good impression of what girls should be aiming to become when they grow up. The female minifigure set provides images of female figures doing actual proper, inspirational (?) jobs. Im not saying i agree with that, but I suspect that was the thinking.

    Well, my wife is a hair stylist and owns her own salon and we make a good living. Many of the "Friends" characters follow a similar path. My daughter is getting into hair styling and maybe one day she will want to take over the business. Are you saying that this isn't a respectable job and I should push her to grow viruses in a laboratory?

    jasor
  • GoodCoffeeJoeyGoodCoffeeJoey Member Posts: 82
    The backlash to this set is so stupid, yet entirely predictable. Like moths to a flame.
    oldtodd33BumblepantsstreekerplasmodiumInfinitymanThego
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,621


    A quick search of BL reveals that in 2013 Lego released 23 female minifigures and 21 male minifigures. So the naysayers appear to be incorrect.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129

    The backlash to this set is so stupid, yet entirely predictable. Like moths to a flame.

    What a intelligent and well-stated rebuttal to the (mostly) rational critiques that have been levied against the approach.

    By all means, feel free to refute the points I (and others) have made. Just calling our opinions "stupid" is lazy and unproductive however.

  • GoodCoffeeJoeyGoodCoffeeJoey Member Posts: 82
    @doughts That was more a reaction to the comments on the front page, and not aimed at anyone in this thread in particular.

    Still I'm not seeing any rational complaints against it here. The backlash is completely emotional.
    Thego
  • RedbullgivesuwindRedbullgivesuwind Brickset's Secret HeadquatersMember Posts: 2,011
    @CCC I would disagree with that. There are a number of male only sets. By buying this you show that there is an interest in either soul female Minifigure sets or a more balanced mix to sets where they are able to.
    tedward
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited June 2014

    @doughts That was more a reaction to the comments on the front page, and not aimed at anyone in this thread in particular.

    Still I'm not seeing any rational complaints against it here. The backlash is completely emotional.

    well, in my case, I can say your assessment about my reaction being emotional is 100% incorrect. But it is of course your prerogative to choose not to address my specific points.

    It seems that if you are unable to see the rational objections, then the perhaps it is due to your inability to set aside your own bias in this case. Whether you agree with the objections or not, you cannot credibly call than irrational.
  • RedbullgivesuwindRedbullgivesuwind Brickset's Secret HeadquatersMember Posts: 2,011
    edited June 2014
    @CCC sorry I meant agree. Teach me to reply at 6.45 am.

    @GoodCoffeeJoey‌ surely all arguments have a basis in emotion anyway? That is why there are arguments. In fact all the arguments on here state their opinion and do so rationally. Not sure who your posts refer to.
  • mountebankmountebank Member Posts: 1,237
    edited June 2014
    I like the idea of this set and I'm glad they're proceeding with the idea as originally proposed.

    I started out in science and have kept a connection with R&D ever since. In my experience science benefits hugely from the contribution made by women and so the more the merrier. I see no reason why LEGO shouldn't make a small gesture in support of this too.

    Looking at how the world works, I think men will overcome the disadvantage to their prospects caused by a single LEGO set tipping the scales in favour of women by an Ångström.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017
    tamamahm said:


    CCC, in every day life there are general difference in how clothes fit and hang on men and women. Many in science and tech do NOT wear lab coats. I did not. A generic torso becomes less realistic in many cases.

    I know, but hopefully the chemist will be if they are holding a test tube or a flask. It is not realistic that a scientist would be doing an experiment without a lab coat on these days. Anyone in my lab would be told to stop work if they are not wearing one, same with lab specs.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017


    I started out in science and have kept a connection with R&D ever since. In my experience science benefits hugely from the contribution made by women and so the more the merrier. I see no reason why LEGO shouldn't make a small gesture in support of this too.

    It does benefit, very much so. But it also benefits from contributions made by men, which is what lego have failed to recognize so far. If this is a one and done science research set, then it is hugely unrepresentative of real life.

    As I said before, I have no problem with more female minifigs, I strongly support it. But to make a completely new type of set and have only women in it just seems wrong. They could have made some of the other suggestions in the cuusoo idea, such as the postwoman, and brought just a little more gender balance to the more general lego world. But it seems with the change of title they want to both narrowly focus the subject and the gender representation in it at the same time.


  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017



    Still I'm not seeing any rational complaints against it here. The backlash is completely emotional.

    Science is not done just by women. This set suggests real science (as opposed to crazy Frankenstein type science) is a female only occupation. What is not rational about that complaint?
  • mountebankmountebank Member Posts: 1,237
    it is hugely unrepresentative of real life.

    LEGO tends to be like that:

    http://brickset.com/sets/70803-1/Cloud-Cuckoo-Palace

    Aanchir
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,017
    ^ Yes, that is a fantasy film.

    City, modulars and similar type sets are more towards real life.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    Pitfall69 said:

    I think though, the issue is neither friends nor disney princess provides a good impression of what girls should be aiming to become when they grow up. The female minifigure set provides images of female figures doing actual proper, inspirational (?) jobs. Im not saying i agree with that, but I suspect that was the thinking.

    Well, my wife is a hair stylist and owns her own salon and we make a good living. Many of the "Friends" characters follow a similar path. My daughter is getting into hair styling and maybe one day she will want to take over the business. Are you saying that this isn't a respectable job and I should push her to grow viruses in a laboratory?

    You're right, I apologise, I should have said a good impression of the wide breadth of careers that girls should be aiming to follow - so broader than those that involve beauty (whether people or animals), looking after animals and food retail. Seriously having just looked back through the friends sets its crazy how many are related to food retail: ice cream stand, lemonade stand, bakery stand, ice cream bike, juice bar, bakery, cafe and outdoor bakery. Given how much of their time is spent selling food to each other its amazing that they're as skinny as they are. Whilst there are sets with the friends girls doing other things, most are more like hobbies (I'll just apologise now to anyone here who has made their living from being a magician) and probably only leaves a life guard, news reporter and possibly invention workshop as 'other' careers.

    Now I don't have a problem with that, I can imagine its what little girls like and that's why they're hoovering up the friends range, but then as men to get all putt out by a set of female minifigures doing science (in a lego ideas sets voted by the public) just seems totally unreasonable, and if I'm honest makes me a little uncomfortable. Its very easy to argue against positive discrimination when you've never been discriminated against - says the middle aged white male in rural england!
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,451
    edited June 2014
    ^I'm going to try to voice this response as rationally as possible because I think we're all getting close to an agreement that the problem is not actually this set but more what else is not available from TLG, but the "Its very easy to argue against positive discrimination when you've never been discriminated against" doesn't sit well with me.

    As a 25 year old white male you might say that I haven't been discriminated against so don't have less reason to voice an opinion, but I have been discriminated against because I used to be quite overweight. I have been discriminated against because I did well at school. I have been discriminated against because I an a cosplayer and have wandered around London (going to convention) in very outlandish costume.

    Just because you cannot necessarily see the thing that someone has been discriminated for does not make it any less real or important to that individual. Just about everyone will have suffered some form of discrimination in their life, but the perspective and potential scale of it is very different. A lot of people wouldn't even necessarily think of what they encountered as discrimination because it doesn't fit into a 'Racist' 'Sexist' etc header, but it does happen to all of us.

    I think that @CCC is entitled to feel like his profession is being under represented, it doesn't take away from the good that this set can do, but just leaves a comment of TLG now have another imbalance to address, which will likely always be the case. I could take it personally that my profession is not represented in Lego, but it doesn't bother me. The debate here seems to be about what else Lego needs to do, this set has just been a catalyst for a couple of people to express that.

    I have no problem with this set being produced, and completely understand the change of name, but personally I think that wither a series of small £2.99 polys or £4-5 small sets each showing a female mini figure in a role they have not yet been represented in might have given a better balance to the roles presented in Lego in general. I am prepared to eat those words if when the full set is revealed it looks amazing, but if all three scientific professions are being cramped into one lab with this $20 price point I worry it might look messy, therefore still being just about the minifigures, which to me makes a poly setup more sensible. I hope I'm proven wrong.
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