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The Community Perspective on Reselling

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Comments

  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588

    rocao said:

    Why stop at imagining?

    Let's have a neutral party here hit the streets, present the situation to strangers, and survey their opinions.

    "The LEGO store is set to open on release day of a potentially high demand item. They have decided to limit 2 per person.

    Someone manages to circumvent the limit and get more than 2. Eventually the store runs out and people are unable to get the set.

    Is the person that circumvented the limit inconsiderate?"

    We can modify the wording of the scenario as long as we agree.
    My side is that more people will say 'yes' than 'no'. You have the other side, obviously.

    Loser pays for the time of the neutral party and donates a 41999 to FairyBricks.
    Edit: since I have my doubts that you'll accept this, this bet is open to anyone.

    Actually, my side is that the average person isn't going to be interested in hearing all that and will wonder why you're bothering them. :)

    If they did listen, I suspect as often as not, you'll get the response, "Huh? this is LEGO, a child's toy, this is what you're running a poll on? Who cares?"

    Frankly, to the average person, it ranks somewhere below the Save the Spotted Owl Society in terms of "give a crap" level. It is easy to miss that when you are so focused on LEGO as we are, but none of this is important to 99% of everyone on this planet.
    The issue isn't that its Lego, it;s the consideration factor. I'd imagine enough people are in hobbies or know people in hobbies that have seen or been apart of the same issue with just a different product. If you really wanted an interesting thing, send someone out there with the debate but instead of calling it Lego, call it "non essencial product X" and make sure people understand it is something that could 100% be considered a luxury item.


  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,831

    I'm so sorry... but I don't want to play anymore.

    Why am I not at all surprised? What have you to lose? It's in the bag, right?

  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290

    I'm so sorry... but I don't want to play anymore.

    This is a litmus test that you suggested, so that's disappointing.

    But maybe this sheds some light on a fundamental difference in how we view the limits.

    You're saying that 99% of people don't care. I don't think that figure is accurate, but unlike you I don't just state it as fact, and I'm willing to take a random sampling to allow some of that 99% to speak for themselves.

    Could it be that the reason you think it's acceptable to ignore the limit is because you think nearly no one else cares what you do? Moreover, you don't care to find out if they care?

    Meanwhile I think people do care about the limits, which is part of the reason I adhere to them.
    pvancil27
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    Legoboy said:

    Why am I not at all surprised? What have you to lose? It's in the bag, right?

    :) Oh no, don't try that...

    We are not going to move the debate to polling and its accuracy, that is a whole other subject that we could spend another 20 pages on... :)

    All I'll say is that people are going to do whatever they feel comfortable. A poll, comments on an Internet forum, etc. aren't likely to change that.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    rocao said:

    Meanwhile I think people do care about the limits, which is part of the reason I adhere to them.

    By all means, more power to you my friend... :) Nothing wrong with that at all...
  • Thanos75Thanos75 Member Posts: 1,120
    edited January 2014
    I have a question. The new Simpons set just came out. There is a sign that says "limit 2 per household". I read the sign and I pick up my two sets and walk to the check out and while chatting with the clerk I say that its a great set and its too bad that I can only get two of them and that I would love to get a couple more. Maybe the clerk is having a good day or I offered to buy him/her a candy bar and for whatever reason they tell me that its ok to get a couple more if I want. Is that a foul? Who is wrong...me for saying I would buy more if I could or the clerk for letting me buy more then what is clearly stated?

    Just for the record I didnt do or try this...just a general question.
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    edited January 2014
    I'd say both, You for initiating it and them for knowing it and ignoring it. But that's me. IF I for some reason wanted more then whatever the release day limit was, I'd personally respond to their offer thanks but I'll wait till the limit is lifted so others can get them.
    Thanos75
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    There are actual people that are hired to stand in a line or a queue if you will. I know people that get paid to stand outside stores to grab IPhones, Ipads, Xboxes, PlayStations or get concert or Sporting event tickets. Is this sort of behavior wrong?
    LegoFanTexas
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210
    ^ The question really is would line standers and those that utilize them to corner a greater share of Bon Jovi tickets be then welcomed and or lauded en masse by a Bon Jovi fan forum.
    LegoFanTexascheshirecat
  • Thanos75Thanos75 Member Posts: 1,120
    Good point pittfall..... Is it only the limits that LEGO has that are wrong to exceed or are the limits set by other companies...TRU,Target,Amazon, Apple...etc...not as important?
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    ^ The question really is would line standers and those that utilize them to corner a greater share of Bon Jovi tickets be then welcomed and or lauded en masse by a Bon Jovi fan forum.

    :) Probably not...
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    I would imagine there are people "hired" to also be in line to grab multiples of a certain product.
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210
    ^ I think the anti-skirters (federalists) are saying that it's always inconsiderate to skirt limits and even moreso during a known shortage.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    Pitfall69 said:

    There are actual people that are hired to stand in a line or a queue if you will. I know people that get paid to stand outside stores to grab IPhones, Ipads, Xboxes, PlayStations or get concert or Sporting event tickets. Is this sort of behavior wrong?

    "Reality is that which exists; the unreal does not exist; the unreal is merely that negation of existence which is the content of a human consciousness when it attempts to abandon reason."
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    ^Ok Sheldon
  • SirKevbagsSirKevbags Fairy Land Member Posts: 4,030
    So we have had the gun show fair enough. Everyone knows that real mean train legs though so @Pitfall69 let's see em! You're not just a t shirt warrior right? ;-)

    My own return to training this week produced comical results. While squatting I dropped into the hole when I heard a rather loud rip of my shorts giving way. So I either dropped the weight to save my blushes but create a loud crash or rise and re rack. I popped back and as the damage was already done just completed the set. Build quality on shorts just isn't what it used to be. (Or more likely my arse is to big)
    Yellowcastle
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210

    ^ The question really is would line standers and those that utilize them to corner a greater share of Bon Jovi tickets be then welcomed and or lauded en masse by a Bon Jovi fan forum.

    :) Probably not...
    Houston, we have liftoff.

  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    edited January 2014

    ^ The question really is would line standers and those that utilize them to corner a greater share of Bon Jovi tickets be then welcomed and or lauded en masse by a Bon Jovi fan forum.

    :) Probably not...
    Houston, we have liftoff.

    "But this is a Bon Jovi site, not a Bon Jovi Fan site. YOu look at Bon Jovi as a band while I look at Bon Jovi as my Business."
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210
    edited January 2014
    ^^^ If we can, as a group, agree on that, then I think we can end The Crawler-gate War of 2014 before more ABS is shed.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    Houston, we have liftoff.

    Actually, the real issue is that it has not been made clear if this is strictly a fan forum, a reseller forum, or both with each side having its own spaces.

    If I went to a Bon Jovi forum and the rules were no talking about scalping, then yea, it'd be really rude to talk about scalping. If they had a specific section of the forum to talk specifically about scalping, then it's be really rude for the "true fans" to go into that forum and bitch and moan about scalpers.

    So who is right really depends on what the ruling from the admins of the site is. Are we "safe" in talking about reselling anywhere here, or is it off limits? If there is a "safe zone", then anyone who doesn't like it can be politely told not to read that section. If there isn't, then we shouldn't have any reseller conversation.

    The only rule should be no discussing anything illegal. Morals can be debated and are really opinions, so you can't realistically limit the conversation to a "moral standard". Well, you can, but then you end up with 54 pages of this.

    I would submit that either you need to create a safe zone, anything goes regarding reselling so long as it is legal, or you should ban it outright and just be a fan forum.

    And frankly, I'm fine with either decision. Just please make one.

    ---

    BTW, regarding "legal", stuff like theft, scams, fraud, etc. anything that will send you to jail if caught, is forbidden. Buying a case of CMFs, sorting them at home, returning the unwanted ones, is pretty darn slimy (even I wouldn't do that), but it isn't illegal so it shouldn't be banned.
    dougts1265
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444

    So we have had the gun show fair enough. Everyone knows that real mean train legs though so @Pitfall69 let's see em! You're not just a t shirt warrior right? ;-)

    My own return to training this week produced comical results. While squatting I dropped into the hole when I heard a rather loud rip of my shorts giving way. So I either dropped the weight to save my blushes but create a loud crash or rise and re rack. I popped back and as the damage was already done just completed the set. Build quality on shorts just isn't what it used to be. (Or more likely my arse is to big)

    I will agree with you. I wear UnderArmour briefs under my shorts just in case of a blowout. When you squat it happens a lot.

    As far as my legs, I do train them, but I have taken some time off because of a bad knee and ankle. They definitely have lost size and definition.

  • LegoManiaccLegoManiacc Member Posts: 116
    Well, if we are speaking specifically of rock music, back when we had the big block scalper visit BonJoviSuperFans.com, I would say mostly that I played my part and he played his game, and he (yes he!) gave love a very bad name.
    Pitfall69khmellymelYellowcastleBumblepantsdougts
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    I'm working hard so I can look like this guy :)
    SuperTrampLegoboyLegoManiacc
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,831
    Lol. Is that @Doc?
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    edited January 2014
    BTW, I can't take a "selfie" of my leg. It is near impossible. I will wait until my wife gets home.

    Who is Doc?
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited January 2014
    rocao said:

    Could it be that the reason you think it's acceptable to ignore the limit is because you think nearly no one else cares what you do? Moreover, you don't care to find out if they care?

    @LegoFanTexas: I await your response to this, which apparently you forgot to submit.

    Well... I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just forgot, because of this:

    You have an amazing ability to read what you want, ignore what you don't, then only quote half of what I write...

  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    rocao said:

    rocao said:

    Could it be that the reason you think it's acceptable to ignore the limit is because you think nearly no one else cares what you do? Moreover, you don't care to find out if they care?

    @LegoFanTexas: please respond to this part
    If you polled people, would it be this Community, random people, or people in and around a Lego store?

  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210
    @LFT - Sigh. For a moment there, I thought we had a breakthrough but alas...

    This Forum serves the collector and the aftermarket is a central part of collecting. While there are indeed just a few guidelines, we are all expected to be civil, respectful and considerate of others.

    Many of us were concerned that the publicizing of this skirting practice conflicted with our expectations for this community and this discussion thus began anew.

    We don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. We just want people to stop bathing the baby in slime or, at the very least, stop telling us you do.
  • SuperTrampSuperTramp City 17Member Posts: 1,021
    @Pitfall69, Doc Emmett Brown maybe?
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    rocao said:

    @LegoFanTexas: I await your response to this, which apparently you forgot to submit.

    It is quite possible you didn't believe me, I'm done with the debate.

    You are all welcome to keep running around in circles, but it is a waste of energy. A decision on what is allowed and what is not needs to be made. Time for the judges to issue a ruling.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    ^Is there really an absolute in this thread?
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    @LFT - Sigh. For a moment there, I thought we had a breakthrough but alas...

    So did I, if you missed it, then that's a shame.

    You will continue to have this debate forever until you issue a ruling.

    Judges, sooner or later, have to issue the final rule, and not everyone will be happy with it, but everyone has to live with it.

    You will not get everyone to see it the same way.

    Many of us were concerned that the publicizing of this skirting practice conflicted with our expectations for this community and this discussion thus began anew.

    We don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. We just want people to stop bathing the baby in slime or, at the very least, stop telling us you do.

    You're trying to have it both ways, it just doesn't work that way (I submit, as evidence, the 54 above pages). You will continue to have these debates and the back and forth vitriol until you make a firm decision.

    Either reselling and investing topics are allowed, or they aren't. Anything legal has to be allowed, or it just becomes someone's opinion that week of what is "ok" and what is "not ok".
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    edited January 2014
    I think what @Yellowcastle is saying is that we know that everything that has been discussed in these 54 pages goes on, but we should probably not "brag" about it. If you are a slime ball douchebag, please keep the tales of debauchery to youself.

    Discussing buying sets to sell in the Aftermarket is fine. Saying you would like to grab 20 of that set is fine. Saying you grabbed 20 of that set when you are only allowed 1 or 2 should probably not be discussed.
  • margotmargot Member Posts: 2,310

    ^^^ If we can, as a group, agree on that, then I think we can end The Crawler-gate War of 2014 before more ABS is shed.

    How is agreeing that Kev's arse is too big going to end crawler-gate?
    Pitfall69SirKevbagsYellowcastley2joshLegoboywagnerml2LegoFanTexas
  • y2joshy2josh Member Posts: 2,002
    edited January 2014

    Either reselling and investing topics are allowed, or they aren't. Anything legal has to be allowed, or it just becomes someone's opinion that week of what is "ok" and what is "not ok".

    Admittedly, I haven't wasted a lot of time reading this whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been mused upon...

    If I recall this re-flare's origins in the 'Predictions' thread, it wasn't actually about reselling at all, so much as it was about skirting clearly posted, though sporadically enforced, limits, exacerbated by the 'I take no personal responsibility for my actions' attitude of some.

    That said (and again, maybe I've missed some crucial point by skimming the dreck), I don't see how we've arrived at the conclusion that the only solution is to either ban talk of reselling altogether or allow anything and everything, resale-related or not (after all, you can ignore the limits without going on to sell the sets).

    For example, though it's not illegal, posting images marked "Confidential" isn't allowed here for various reasons. Same thing with swearing and making personal attacks. So what would be the reasoning behind excluding the (I think) obvious solution of adding 'skirting of published limits' to that list?

    Whether you think ignoring the limits is your fault, TLG's or some third party's, it is, at the very least, discourteous behavior, and probably something we all know full well will be met with, at best, ambivalence should we choose to broadcast it.
    YellowcastlegivmellisBumblepants
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210
    @Margot - If it's not clear to you by now, then you're never going to get it. ;o)

    @LFT - For someone who constantly argues that the world is grey, you seem to have latched onto yet another black/white ultimatum. Additionally, I'm sorry you feel that this has been 54 pages of vitriol. I enjoyed the debate, learned more about many of my fellow bricksetters and got a better appreciation for our collective opinions on reselling as a part of collecting. If this isn't one of the reasons we have this forum, then that's news to me.

    And your last argument that this is just a plastic toy and such a #firstworldproblem is such a dismissive copout. Everyone who chooses to spend ANY time here already accepts that it's an, expensive, silly luxury item that we still love to spend our free time discussing. The time and effort is no more frivolously spent in this thread than in discussing the accuracy of the Simpsons House or salivating over Benny's Classic Spaceship.

    I continue to support what I believed was a reasonable compromise from @wagnerml2 in that you can skirt all you want IRL but keep it to yourselves here. Shall we call for a vote?
    margot
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129

    @LFT - Sigh. For a moment there, I thought we had a breakthrough but alas...

    This Forum serves the collector and the aftermarket is a central part of collecting. While there are indeed just a few guidelines, we are all expected to be civil, respectful and considerate of others.

    Many of us were concerned that the publicizing of this skirting practice conflicted with our expectations for this community and this discussion thus began anew.

    We don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. We just want people to stop bathing the baby in slime or, at the very least, stop telling us you do.

    And yet after two days I'm still waiting for you, racao, and most everyone else to weigh on on my proposal that we do away with applying negative labels to people and their behavior, and pressuring them to publicly accept said labels. I don't think this is an unreasonable request to make of the "other side", just like I've agreed that avoiding hijacking other threads and posting needlessly about breaking limits, etc is a reasonable request made of "my side". Particularly interesting that rocao has repeatedly refused to respond to my points on this topic, while quoting and counter pointing every other thing I write

    Besides, it would seem to fall directly in
    Line with what I quoted from you above, as well as general site rules about name calling and personal attacks
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    y2josh said:


    Whether you think ignoring the limits is your fault, TLG's or some third party's, it is, at the very least, discourteous behavior, and probably something we all know full well will be met with, at best, ambivalence should we choose to broadcast it.

    Actually the last ten pages or show demonstrate that there is no clear agreement on what is considered discourteous or not
    Pitfall69LegoFanTexas
  • LegoManiaccLegoManiacc Member Posts: 116
    edited January 2014
    ^^You need a reply from rocoa, rocoa only has eyes for LFT until he gets a public admission of wrong doing (and 39 lashes to be given by the ppl Billy deprived), and LFT needs a reply from his broker to see how much his extra share of GOOG is doing that he bought with all that sweet $ from 41999 sales....it's a vicious triangle full of money, violence and lust (wait..what??)

    LegoFanTexas
  • y2joshy2josh Member Posts: 2,002
    dougts said:

    y2josh said:


    Whether you think ignoring the limits is your fault, TLG's or some third party's, it is, at the very least, discourteous behavior, and probably something we all know full well will be met with, at best, ambivalence should we choose to broadcast it.

    Actually the last ten pages or show demonstrate that there is no clear agreement on what is considered discourteous or not
    Fair enough. Let me edit 'discourteous' to 'questionable.'
  • CrowkillersCrowkillers Member Posts: 757
    edited January 2014
    The day the 8070 Supercar came out in back in 2011, Toys R Us was running their Buy One Get One 50% off deal online and in store. When ordering online it had a limit for that set of 2, so I ordered 2 and then tried to place a separate order using the same name and address and using my same Debit Card that I had just used to place the previous order for 2 more and it accepted the order, I then proceeded to place 3 more orders for a total of 10. They shipped and sent me all 10 no questions asked.

    I think that at times a "limit" is more of a suggestion rather than an enforcement...

    I didn't buy those to resell them though... I bought them for parts..
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210
    edited January 2014
    @dougts - I can only speak for myself but I don't need anyone to acknowledge any label. Additionally, you're right in that there is not universal acceptance of what is or is not "discourteous" in collecting LEGO. With that being said, would you support the Wagner Plan?
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited January 2014
    dougts said:

    And yet after two days I'm still waiting for you, racao, and most everyone else to weigh on on my proposal that we do away with applying negative labels to people and their behavior, and pressuring them to publicly accept said labels. I don't think this is an unreasonable request to make of the "other side", just like I've agreed that avoiding hijacking other threads and posting needlessly about breaking limits, etc is a reasonable request made of "my side". Particularly interesting that rocao has repeatedly refused to respond to my points on this topic, while quoting and counter pointing every other thing I write

    I've actually had the beginning part of my reply to this saved as a draft, so I'll finish it up in an hour when I return from the post office. I'm not trying to ignore or avoid it, I just want to answer it with careful thought and effectively convey my message so we don't get bogged down in semantics again.

  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited January 2014
    dougts said:

    And yet after two days I'm still waiting for you, racao, and most everyone else to weigh on on my proposal that we do away with applying negative labels to people and their behavior, and pressuring them to publicly accept said labels. I don't think this is an unreasonable request to make of the "other side", just like I've agreed that avoiding hijacking other threads and posting needlessly about breaking limits, etc is a reasonable request made of "my side". Particularly interesting that rocao has repeatedly refused to respond to my points on this topic, while quoting and counter pointing every other thing I write

    Besides, it would seem to fall directly in
    Line with what I quoted from you above, as well as general site rules about name calling and personal attacks

    I don't like your proposal, because I like to know who the slimy resellers

    However, I would be all for doing away with the overuse of the smiley emoticon.
    Pitfall69
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    Make your own judgements on who is slimy or not. No need to publicly label them slimy and demand over and over again that they should just admit it to their sliminess
    YellowcastleLegoFanTexasJeffH
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,210
    edited January 2014
    ^^ I'm fine with the @dougts proposal and again, don't think we have many (if any) slimy resellers here. But some resellers cans and do utilize , as @y2josh puts it, "questionable" techniques which I think they should just keep to themselves in consideration of others.

    As to your 2nd point, all emoticons are now banned. ;o)
    LegoFanTexas
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,831
    edited January 2014
    @dougts, agreed. Just don't give me any reason to think they're slimy. I'd rather not know.
    dougtsLegoFanTexas
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129

    @dougts - I can only speak for myself but I don't need anyone to acknowledge any label. Additionally, you're right in that there is not universal acceptance of what is or is not "discourteous" in collecting LEGO. With that being said, would you support the Wagner Plan?

    What I'm asking is for the act of publicly labeling people with negative terms like greedy, selfish, rude, discourteous , etc be treated by the forum administrators in the same manner that name calling and personal attacks are.

    As for the Wagner plan, I already agreed to it long ago. That said, if im the proper context of the proper thread a discussion naturally develops that would cause one to divulge how many copies of a given set they may have procured, I don't think that should be an outright no no. As always, it depends on the circumstances

  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,831
    Divulging numbers should remain in the 'reselling' threads. Numbers that break limits, should be banned outright.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    Legoboy said:

    Divulging numbers should remain in the 'reselling' threads. Numbers that break limits, should be banned outright.

    Except there is no clear understanding of what the limits are, even on the 41999

    nkx1Legoboy
This discussion has been closed.

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