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The Community Perspective on Reselling

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Comments

  • jasorjasor United StatesMember Posts: 839

    ^ I disagree with this. I know of several members who read a lot but rarely post as they feel they don't have anything meaningful to say and hence would rather say nothing. Compare with some members who post frequently yet rarely say anything of value (in my humble opinion, of course).

    I literally lol'd. I dont use lol, because, for the most part...it's a lie. I might SIS (smile in silence), or LQTM (laugh quietly to myself)....very rarely do I LLOL.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    jasor said:

    ^ I disagree with this. I know of several members who read a lot but rarely post as they feel they don't have anything meaningful to say and hence would rather say nothing. Compare with some members who post frequently yet rarely say anything of value (in my humble opinion, of course).

    I literally lol'd. I dont use lol, because, for the most part...it's a lie. I might SIS (smile in silence), or LQTM (laugh quietly to myself)....very rarely do I LLOL.
    Like spitting coffee all over your keyboard or shooting Coco Puffs out your nose ;)

    jasor
  • jasorjasor United StatesMember Posts: 839
    Pitfall69 said:


    jasor said:

    ^ I disagree with this. I know of several members who read a lot but rarely post as they feel they don't have anything meaningful to say and hence would rather say nothing. Compare with some members who post frequently yet rarely say anything of value (in my humble opinion, of course).

    I literally lol'd. I dont use lol, because, for the most part...it's a lie. I might SIS (smile in silence), or LQTM (laugh quietly to myself)....very rarely do I LLOL.
    Like spitting coffee all over your keyboard or shooting Coco Puffs out your nose ;)

    It was more of the "single guffaw in a completely soulless office whilst onlookers turned in wonder at the glimpse of what 'happy' might look like."

    ;)
    Pitfall69BumblepantsdougtsLostInTranslationBrickarmorkhmellymelEKSam
  • EKSamEKSam Member Posts: 349
    edited August 2013

    ^ I disagree with this. I know of several members who read a lot but rarely post as they feel they don't have anything meaningful to say and hence would rather say nothing. Compare with some members who post frequently yet rarely say anything of value (in my humble opinion, of course).

    @LostInTranslation Hugs for saying exactly what I feel. I have been here for a bit but have only 200 some posts. I feel others say whatever I was about to say but more eloquently so there's no point in me saying it. :-)

    And before @rocao makes good on his word and takes action against people who have not introduced themselves etc, lemme introduce myself, I am from the Great Northwest, Washington state , have a very modest collection, love to collect Creator houses and scour Fred Meyer for Lego deals :-))

    i have never sold even a single brick but have traded here exactly 3 times. And I love to read the Marketplace thread in the hopes that someone will have a Theodon or Merry minifigs for trade. :-))
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    edited August 2013
    ^I don't think it was a steadfast comment. He was merely thinking out loud like many of us do in the forum.

    I have made plenty of comments and have started many discussions, but a lot of my comments are senseless humor...most of the time to keep the peace. I also can "read between the lines" very well LIT ;)
  • EKSamEKSam Member Posts: 349
    ^ I know at @Pitfall69 I was kidding about @rocao's intent, hence the double smileys.:-)
    Pitfall69jasor
  • jasorjasor United StatesMember Posts: 839
    EKSam said:

    ^ I know at @Pitfall69 I was kidding about @rocao's intent, hence the double smileys.:-)

    Smileception. A smile within a smile within a dream! Wait...I'm confused.

    Yellowcastle
  • EKSamEKSam Member Posts: 349
    edited August 2013
    @jasor at the risk of veering off topic in this rousing thread:-) I am not a funny person, my sense of humor is non -existent at best.So when I use one:-) I think I am being funny, when I use :-)) I think I am being howlarious. But given my lack of SOH, I am sadly neither funny nor howlarious. * sigh* Apologies for confusing you. :-)
    jasorLostInTranslation
  • ColoradoBricksColoradoBricks Denver, CO, USAMember Posts: 1,659
    It is a good thing you can now buy a SOH #10234 .. but unfortunately, you can't expect it to find at a discount anymore :)
    Pitfall69EKSam
  • DadDad UKMember Posts: 816
    edited August 2013

    Unless that post was since edited to remove something bad can I suggest we stop with the pointless abuse flags. I know they are largely meaningless but it just sours the debate.

    With the example above about the concert tickets I wonder if this is also a country specific thing. Theres no way I can imagine a ticket scalper doubling face value and sitting next to their buyer in the UK. Perhaps that would depend on the concert but often I think it would end in violence if they did. Similarly as said before if the same ticket scalper joined a band's fan forum and talked about how many concert tickets they bought and howmuch they thought they could make selling them they wouldn't be encouraged to stick around and would likely receive threats if they did. I wonder if maybe it's just totally different in the US.
    .

    @cheshirecat. I'll admit it. I once paid 8 ( eight ) times face value and sat next to my scalper!!! Kylie
    Worth every penny. I do realise some may disagree!!
  • caperberrycaperberry LondonMember Posts: 2,226
    Well if my scalper was Kylie I'd happily sit next to her too.
    DadLostInTranslation
  • FenrisAkashiFenrisAkashi Member Posts: 242
    edited August 2013
    rocao said:

    That is a statement by me. I would be surprised if I was alone in having the opinion that someone who only takes from this community and contributes nothing imperils their membership in the community.

    Thank you for taking the time to clarify.
    I respect your opinion and share it in spirit but I fear it may be much more imperiling to any community to start making assumptions about others intent.
    Thanos75
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    Concert tickets run out in minutes.. Lego sets are out for years. Even the 41999 was available for days and still in some stores right now.
    Cam_n_Stu
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013

    Thank you for taking the time to clarify.
    I respect your opinion and share it in spirit but I fear it may be much more imperiling to any community to start making assumptions about others intent.

    I agree with your statement.

    Food for thought, though: It was an administrative decision to make the "Shopping" and "Buying and Selling" category accessible to members. What is the practical difference between a guest account and a member who has never posted?
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290

    Concert tickets run out in minutes.. Lego sets are out for years. Even the 41999 was available for days and still in some stores right now.

    Minecraft around the holidays sold out in minutes. I can recall at least 30 different instances between the retailers where I was notified by a watchdog service that checks for availability every minute (I think) and they were sold out even before I could bring up my browser.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    While true for Minecraft, should a large company like TLG set policy based on such an outlier?
    juggles7dougtsnkx1
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    Ah, forgot about minecraft. Other than that set, almost everything else was out long enough for people to get what they want.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    rocao said:

    Minecraft around the holidays sold out in minutes. I can recall at least 30 different instances between the retailers where I was notified by a watchdog service that checks for availability every minute (I think) and they were sold out even before I could bring up my browser.

    Keep in mind that last year Minecraft production was very limited. Often stores were getting in just a case or two, sometimes as few as 5 of them...

    Amazon restocked many times, but often just 60 of them at a time, and of course those were gone in minutes.

    Even today, a year post release, Amazon restocks hundreds of copies and they are gone in a few hours, a day at the most.

    This is a set that has demand out of all relation to production, so it really isn't a fair example in that regard.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013

    While true for Minecraft, should a large company like TLG set policy based on such an outlier?

    If I recall correctly, concert scalping was brought up to explain that, while the practice is understandable considering the profit opportunity, fans that perceive the pinch the scalpers cause don't exactly want to socialize with them.

    But anyway, what policy are you saying TLG has instituted solely because of the Minecraft situation?
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    Right. One example compared to thousands of production sets over the past 5 years that have been readily available to any willing buyer

    So again, there is no other case where someone could claim a reseller prevented a person from acquiring a production set. Even 41999 was available for close to three weeks here in the US
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013

    This is a set that has demand out of all relation to production, so it really isn't a fair example in that regard.

    I've said in the past that TLG didn't handle the holiday restock of Minecraft very well. They released a statement that more would be coming but they could have widely publicized a specific date that would have prevented people from panicking due to uncertainty.

    But that restock ended up being very telling about who was buying sets and the effect of resellers. When [email protected] restocked they stayed in stock for 3 days. With a set so amazingly popular that others retailers were selling out within minutes (of admittedly small supply), how did [email protected] stay in stock for so long?

    Was the price unattractive? It was being sold at MSRP but shipping wasn't free. Still, people had been paying 3-4x MSRP from resellers so price didn't seem to be an issue.

    Was the end-user demand satisfied? Factors that suggest this might have been true were that it was after Christmas so that other gifts were purchased or it was purchased already from a reseller at a markup. For the former situation, I can't speak for all parents, but if my child really wanted this set for Xmas, and I had been trying to no avail to get one such that I ended up buying something else, it would have been pretty amazing if I ended up being able to get one anyway. To the latter, you guys seem to be saying that the reseller effect is overstated, so there couldn't have been that many parents who bought it from resellers, could there have been? Moreover, by your own observations, Minecraft has been a brisk seller for most of this year, so there seems to still be healthy demand.

    Was the re-supply so massive such that it was selling like gangbusters but there was simply enough to last for three days? It's possible; I certainly think they had a lot. But then why were other retailers getting the trickles that you claim? Why did the LEGO stores not get any? Here is what I say happened, and I think I'm not reaching when I connect the dots this way:

    1. TLG had advised much earlier in the year that there would be enough to last through the holidays.
    2. We didn't see them restock and expectedly panic ensues. That resellers were also gobbling up sets and selling them at 3-4x MSRP is undeniable and eBay, Amazon, Bricklink,and craigslist were testaments to this.
    3. [email protected] restocks.
    4. Frenzied buying still occurred initially.
    5. [email protected] didn't run out of stock in minutes.
    6. [email protected] didn't run out of stock in hours.
    7. [email protected] didn't run out of stock overnight.
    8. Aftermarket prices plummeted since the set was now available for MSRP.
    9. With the aftermarket prices plummeting, the shipping cost cutting further into the profit margin, and [email protected] apparently having a glut, resellers thought it was all too risky. They saw that the gravy train was over and moved on,
    10. Stock ran out in 3 days, and what we saw was real end-user demand.

    As always, I welcome you to poke holes where you can and I welcome your own explanation to see if it survives my scrutiny.

    [edited: date of restock discovered in SD thread]
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    rocao said:

    Here is what I say happened, and I think I'm not reaching when I connect the dots this way:

    I totally get your point of view.

    I don't agree with it, my personal experience says otherwise.

    I have sold a lot of Minecraft over the past year. Looking at who it is selling to, the speed which it sells at when I have the right price on it, tells me that it is demand from consumers, not resellers, that is driving this set.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013
    dougts said:

    Right. One example compared to thousands of production sets over the past 5 years that have been readily available to any willing buyer.

    So again, there is no other case where someone could claim a reseller prevented a person from acquiring a production set. Even 41999 was available for close to three weeks here in the US

    3 weeks? [email protected] had removed the listing by August 10th, so that's 10 days: http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/212800/#Comment_212800

    But that's splitting hairs. Instead, let's speak hypothetically: if a set is sold out, and a reseller has purchased even just one set, doesn't that mean one end-user was prevented?

    Let's say this last LEGO store restock is the last of the 20,000. How many do you estimate have been purchased by resellers?

    I'll start you out with a lower bound: 103 have been sold on Bricklink and another 140 are listed for sale. 324 have been sold on eBay and another 171 are listed for sale. LFT can probably provide the number that have been on Amazon better than I can, but I think at least 100 have been sold (didn't a lot of Amazon sellers say that Amazon easily outpaces eBay in reselling volume?) and there are 32 currently listed.

    So just counting the ones that have been listed on Bricklink, eBay, and Amazon, and ignoring those that have yet to be listed and other marketplaces like Craigslist, we're up to 870. Oh wait, I remember @doriansdad said only noobs, the weak, and the lazy (or something like that) would sell early, so I imagine his aren't listed yet. Add 5 or 6 more to 870... there's your baseline.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013

    I totally get your point of view.

    I don't agree with it, my personal experience says otherwise.

    I have sold a lot of Minecraft over the past year. Looking at who it is selling to, the speed which it sells at when I have the right price on it, tells me that it is demand from consumers, not resellers, that is driving this set.

    You abstain from providing details, though, right? Can you at least point to the part of my conjecture with which you don't agree?

    Oh, and while we're talking about personal experiences and accounts, here are 81 posts, mostly from resellers. Let me know if it jives with my conjecture or whatever yours is: http://slickdeals.net/f/5746258-Lego-Minecraft-Instock-Lego-com

    Seriously... read the thread.
  • nkx1nkx1 Member Posts: 719
    edited August 2013
    ^^Your baseline assessment may very well be fairly accurate. However, I think you and dougts might be arguing two different ideas.

    I'm sure dougts will chime in, but it sounds like he's suggesting that if a non-reseller consumer wanted the set, they could have purchased one (provided they were adequately prepared to buy it, and provided they were well informed). That, for all reasonable intents and purposes, is factual.

    You're suggesting that resellers buying even one set is depriving a non-reseller consumer of a set. While this also may be true, the only consumers being deprived are ones who were unprepared, uninformed, etc. Unfortunately, that's pretty much the way life works, for better or for worse.

    In so many ways, you're both right; the two scenarios do not have to be mutually exclusive.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    ^ You're correct, of course. I wasn't arguing the fairness of the effect, I was arguing that there was an effect.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    On Dec 17th, there was no free shipping and you could only buy 1 at a time, and it wasn't going to arrive for Christmas.

    There is a huge amount of risk buying something like that, paying RRP plus shipping, 1 per order, only to get them a week post-Christmas.

    In the event, it still would have been a good deal, but we didn't know that at the time.

    I do remember seeing that, but passing because of the risk involved. There were other deals to be had that week as well, I believe that is right around when Target did their Christmas clearance before Christmas, which was odd, but great because sets were, if memory serves, 30% off, then they added BOGO50% to it as well.

    Limited capital, unlimited places to spend it, [email protected] on Dec 17th wasn't the place to be, and I think most of the resellers agreed with me.

    Also, keep in mind that lots of people don't know [email protected] exists. Something else to consider.
    Cam_n_Stu
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    edited August 2013
    rocao said:

    dougts said:

    Right. One example compared to thousands of production sets over the past 5 years that have been readily available to any willing buyer.

    So again, there is no other case where someone could claim a reseller prevented a person from acquiring a production set. Even 41999 was available for close to three weeks here in the US

    3 weeks? [email protected] had removed the listing by August 10th, so that's 10 days: http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/212800/#Comment_212800

    But that's splitting hairs. Instead, let's speak hypothetically: if a set is sold out, and a reseller has purchased even just one set, doesn't that mean one end-user was prevented?

    Let's say this last LEGO store restock is the last of the 20,000. How many do you estimate have been purchased by resellers?

    I'll start you out with a lower bound: 103 have been sold on Bricklink and another 140 are listed for sale. 324 have been sold on eBay and another 171 are listed for sale. LFT can probably provide the number that have been on Amazon better than I can, but I think at least 100 have been sold (didn't a lot of Amazon sellers say that Amazon easily outpaces eBay in reselling volume?) and there are 32 currently listed.

    So just counting the ones that have been listed on Bricklink, eBay, and Amazon, and ignoring those that have yet to be listed and other marketplaces like Craigslist, we're up to 870. Oh wait, I remember @doriansdad said only noobs, the weak, and the lazy (or something like that) would sell early, so I imagine his aren't listed yet. Add 5 or 6 more to 870... there's your baseline.
    nk1 answered it well, but the point is, even 10 days is more than enough time for any buyer who wanted the item to have acted. I'll allow that minecraft was a case where an average buyer could not have reasonably gotten a hold of that set in those months, but this simply isn't true with 41999. Ten days is an eternity. Anyone who didn't act in that time frame just didn't have the item as a high enough priority. Resellers in and of themselves didn't deprive anyone a more than reasonable opportunity to buy the set directly from LEGO.

    So, my assertion remains. We have *ONE* example - out of thousands - of a production run set where resellers could have even possibly prevented an end user from obtaining the set. And I will point out that even in that case, the set is still being produced and supplied, so one could make the argument that even in that case no consumer was deprived of an opportunity to buy at RRP.
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    On most occasions, resellers do not keep consumers from actually getting sets.

    But that doesn't mean resellers cant still indirectly hurt consumers.

    - Wiping out Clearance (or Promotional) aisles at Walmart/Target affects consumers
    - Wiping out BOGO stock once a sale goes live online affects consumers
    - Skirting designated buying limits affects consumers
    jasor
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    I won't argue those points. i will say this: as a consumer, I've gotten every non-exclusive (and many exclusive) set I wanted for myself at a minimum 20% off or better, and it hasn't even been challenging. And i live in an area saturated with resellers. there is no shortage of sales - even if you limit it to online only. You may at times have to wait awhile, but isn't that true of buying anything on sale? You can have a great price, or you can have it right away, you can't always have both.

    Now, if someone is holding out for 50% clearance, then yeah, I guess you are going to be "hurt by resellers" who clear the shelf, but I'd say that's just an unrealistic hope/expectation to begin with, and the consumer should adjust their expectations.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013

    On Dec 17th, there was no free shipping and you could only buy 1 at a time, and it wasn't going to arrive for Christmas.

    There is a huge amount of risk buying something like that, paying RRP plus shipping, 1 per order, only to get them a week post-Christmas.

    In the event, it still would have been a good deal, but we didn't know that at the time.

    I do remember seeing that, but passing because of the risk involved. There were other deals to be had that week as well, I believe that is right around when Target did their Christmas clearance before Christmas, which was odd, but great because sets were, if memory serves, 30% off, then they added BOGO50% to it as well.

    Limited capital, unlimited places to spend it, [email protected] on Dec 17th wasn't the place to be, and I think most of the resellers agreed with me.

    Sometimes I'm pretty sure you just gloss over my posts. My point about LEGO [email protected] remaining in stock for 3 days -- a very long time compared to other instances of availability -- was that once resellers realized there was enough supply to threaten their profiteering, they moved on. Thus, resellers do have a perceptible impact. It looks like you're agreeing with me, so that's great :)

    Also, keep in mind that lots of people don't know [email protected] exists. Something else to consider.

    I think a lot more people know to go to LEGO.com for Minecraft LEGO than they know to go to Jinx.com. Yet, Jinx sold out in hours and they even charged shipping.

    The depletion of stock from Walmart.com, Amazon.com, and barnesandnoble.com took only minutes, even in the dead of the night. It was pretty obvious that people were using trackers, and I think most people savvy enough to use trackers would know about LEGO S[email protected] (which is also a searched vendor on the major trackers).
    cheshirecat
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550
    edited August 2013

    On most occasions, resellers do not keep consumers from actually getting sets.

    But that doesn't mean resellers cant still indirectly hurt consumers.

    - Wiping out Clearance (or Promotional) aisles at Walmart/Target affects consumers
    - Wiping out BOGO stock once a sale goes live online affects consumers

    I've made this point before MSRP is the standard by which a consumer has reason to complain about the inability to obtain something. A a consumer that waits for a sale risks not getting something. If you want it, buy it. Any price below MSRP puts the blame solely upon the consumer for failing to obtain it.

    - Skirting designated buying limits affects consumers

    Aside from one example, there is no proof that it is resellers alone that engage in this activity. It's unethical regardless of who does it but given the ratio of consumers versus resellers, the odds favor the majority of those who engage in this activity to be consumers interested in more than the given limit of a set.

    I might add that it's also possible to get around limits unintentionally. On three occassions I have made purchases beyond the limit Lego set (in each case five). All three times were the result of my internet seemingly dropping during bad weather, me refreshing the screen and then finding out that the order did indeed go through before the connection was broke.

    The first time this happened, I ended up with 6 of a set that was limited to 5. The second time, I ended up with only 2 of the set out of two purchases of 5 each due to them running out of stock (it was a discontinued set which had reappeared that morning after being gone for months). The third time that I had multiple orders that would have bypassed the limit, Lego simply cancelled the second order thankfully.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    ^statistically consumers may circumvent limits but they have less reason too. There will be a small number with lots of kids and buy the same set for each, some for parts, some to get the perfect box, but resellers have repeatedly shown they will try to get as many as possible. theres someone on this forum with 25 41999s and thinking about getting another 10 there are no doubt many others here with more than two. intentional or unintentional purchases above limits by consumers is surely tiny by comparison.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    edited August 2013
    in regards to limits, it's mostly a moot point though - how often does skirting limits actually lead to someone not getting a desired set? I don't mean getting it at that particular sale/day/week, but overall. Pretty much all sets are widely and regularly available from scores of retailers for 6 months up to 5 years or more. Stock depletions are generally very temporary, and most often occur at 3 points in time:
    1. brand new product, supply is temporarily limited while production and distribution catch up. this is not a problem, everyone knows the set will be available for some time to come. no one is prevented from acquiring a set (eventually), even if people skirt the limits at release time. It's rude, but no actual "damage" to a potential consumer is caused.
    2. EOL product, supply is dwindling. Often accompanied by a sale to clear out remaining inventory. In this case, the product has been available for months or years, and has almost certainly been on sale somewhere, multiple times, over that course of time. If a potential consumer loses out at this point because people are skirting buying limits on the last gasp sale, again, they had more than ample opportunity to acquire the set sooner.
    3. Christmas shortages. This isn't unique to LEGO, and likely occurs even in cases where no skirting of limits is happening. LEGO did a terrible job in delivering enough supply for the Christmas 2012 season, and this wasn't because resellers were snatching up multiples of items (Minecraft and the ridiculous city Mine sale being exceptions). [email protected] was out of 10229 WVC from early December, and 10220 and 10226, among others, for most of the month. Resellers weren't snatching these all up at RRP in some hopeful speculative bid. It's Christmas - if you HAVE to have X for little Timmy, buy it early (and this goes far beyond LEGO).

    I say all this to say this: while abusing buying limits is wrong, to say that it causes the end consumer to not be able to acquire a set they want, just isn't born out by the facts. The end consumer has all the power in the world to take the situation into their own hands and ensure they can acquire whatever sets they want to buy, at no worse than RRP. These aren't rare or hard to find items - they are mass produced and widely available for months, and in most cases, years. Don't blame others for your fate - take control of your own situation. In the LEGO world, any consumer can EASILY avoid being harmed by clearance shelf clearing and buying limit abuse
    vitreolumChang405jasorTheLoneTensornkx1Coolsplash
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,480
    Looks like I broke the limits on the Lego Stig keychains. I just had another four turn up. Apparently my first order that didn't appear to complete must have done after all.
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    @dougts - You're arguing a point not being challenged. I think most agree that resellers don't keep consumers from being able to get a set, only being able to get a set at certain times or certain prices.

    As such, resellers absolutely affect consumers.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    ^Yes, they do, both positively and negatively. The question really is, how much do resellers affect the consumer in each way?

    Cam_n_Stu
  • Bosstone100Bosstone100 USAMember Posts: 1,431
    If all of the sets (Minecraft or whatever) eventually end up in consumer hands (say 870 as mentioned earlier), aren't resellers taking 870 away from consumers who originally wanted it, well, to consume (build)? Most resellers in this world are reactionary, not trendsetters. So, we should welcome more and more resellers into the market. Then they'll realize that they killed their own market and leave. Those big returns are getting pretty rare. If they lose some money... well, that'll teach 'em or maybe it won't.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    rocao said:

    I think a lot more people know to go to LEGO.com for Minecraft LEGO than they know to go to Jinx.com. Yet, Jinx sold out in hours and they even charged shipping.

    Perhaps, but the missing datapoint is we don't know how much stock Jinx received and how much stock [email protected] received.

    If Jinx received 100 copies and [email protected] received 20,000 copies, then the above information isn't all that useful. :)
    Yellowcastle
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    rocao said:

    Sometimes I'm pretty sure you just gloss over my posts. My point about LEGO [email protected] remaining in stock for 3 days -- a very long time compared to other instances of availability -- was that once resellers realized there was enough supply to threaten their profiteering, they moved on. Thus, resellers do have a perceptible impact. It looks like you're agreeing with me, so that's great :)

    Sometimes I feel the same way. :)

    No, that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that at that time, on Dec 17th, it wasn't the deal to be had, there were other deals.

    Had [email protected] had the exact same stock 3 weeks before, I think it would have been gone much faster, in my opinion.
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    Pitfall69 said:

    ^Yes, they do, both positively and negatively. The question really is, how much do resellers affect the consumer in each way?

    Now THIS is a good questions. People like me obviously feel the negative impact is greater then the positive and other feel the positive outweighs the negative.

    I guess my irritation is when people on either side refuse to accept that the other is in anyway right.

  • jasorjasor United StatesMember Posts: 839
    I was diligent in my searches, through all the Minecraft hub bub. I scoured Jinx/Lego/etc etc for at least one set to give to my brother for Christmas.

    On one of my family excursions to Legoland (small one) in Dallas, TX...there was an ENTIRE endcap of them. This was before Christmas. This was when they were selling for 2xRRP aftermarket. I picked on up. I refused to pay that threshold for the frenzy, and it paid off.

    After that, I waited for [email protected] to get back in stock, and ordered my own copy after Christmas. I feel so abused by the system! Not really. If you are a consumer, and want a set....either get one on the front side of supply, wait for an opportunity, or deal with the aftermarket.

    Everyone uses Minecraft. It was a frenzy involving non AFOLs in excess of any other time I can really think of. I had family members ask me about buying and reselling them. It's really just an unfair example.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    pvancil27 said:

    I guess my irritation is when people on either side refuse to accept that the other is in anyway right.

    I am not one of them, I totally get the downsides to resellers, and believe it or not, I understand some of the reasons TLG is going after them.

    I just think they are going about it the wrong way.

    My personal opinion? To cut down on the "bad parts" of resellers, you must build up the "good parts" of resellers.

    You can't take without giving, that is the way of things, and right now it is all take.

    Support the good that resellers do (offering large amounts of MISB product after EOL to AFOLs) and you'll have fewer problems with the bad short term flipping of current sets (which I get is the real problem).
    Yellowcastle
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,480


    Support the good that resellers do (offering large amounts of MISB product after EOL to AFOLs) and you'll have fewer problems with the bad short term flipping of current sets (which I get is the real problem).

    Good for whom?

    It is good for the AFOL (or kid) that missed the set as they can get it later (although at a cost).

    It is very good for the reseller that charges 2xRRP or more.

    But it probably means that money is not spent direct with lego / on current lego. Of course, lego make the initial sale to the reseller, but if they offer resellers discounts on RRP, then it means that they are not getting full value for that set - which they possibly would have done if the AFOL had bought it direct.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,937
    edited August 2013

    On most occasions, resellers do not keep consumers from actually getting sets.

    But that doesn't mean resellers cant still indirectly hurt consumers.

    - Wiping out Clearance (or Promotional) aisles at Walmart/Target affects consumers
    - Wiping out BOGO stock once a sale goes live online affects consumers
    - Skirting designated buying limits affects consumers

    Point 1: If a reseller is walking down the aisle and suddenly the manager marks everything 50% off clearance, and the reseller grabs everything, that's not all that great, but I still can't fault them. Other than that, all bets are off, and it's the early bird gets the worm. Clearance is all about timing and luck (which one can make for them self, I might add). This is a little different also, because clearanced items are usually EOL. But, either way, prior to the clearance, everyone had a chance to get the sets, be it at RRP or on a normal sale.

    Point 2: This affects everyone, preventing them from getting the deals, including other resellers. For the BOGO (or any good sale), this is just managing the price as opposed to the availability of a set or sets. It's not preventing people from getting a set, just a really good deal on the set. Again, this again is a knowledge/preparation/experience/luck thing. Limits would help enormously here, because with them, the BOGOs will last much longer into the day (assuming we ever get another useful BOGO again).

    Point 3: This is mostly about preventing people from getting the only copies of a set that will ever be (e.g. #41999). Some retailers have better controls in place to prevent skirting than others. Amazon is easiest because everything is online, so it's already tied to ID information (name, address, ccard, etc.). Even trying to skirt with multiple accounts runs the risk of banishment from Amazon, which is a big deal for people to risk when you think about it. With B&M stores it's a little more difficult, but not impossible to prevent 95% of the skirters with a bit of effort to track the same data (name, address, ccard, etc.). This is assuming the retailers care about doing so, which really, they absolutely do not. The primary reason they may appear to care is because they want to avoid PR backlash.

    So yeah, I agree with your initial point that resellers do not prevent people from getting sets in general. But, I don't think they hurt other consumers as much as the retailer practices have let them be able to hurt the consumers when it comes to taking advantage of great deals.
  • Chang405Chang405 Member Posts: 88
    ^ It is also good for Lego. People aren't going to spend all their Lego money buying retired sets at a premium price. The fact that Lego sets are still maintaining or even doubling their value after retirement provides people peace of mind to buy more current sets than they would otherwise.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,937
    CCC said:


    Support the good that resellers do (offering large amounts of MISB product after EOL to AFOLs) and you'll have fewer problems with the bad short term flipping of current sets (which I get is the real problem).

    Good for whom?

    It is good for the AFOL (or kid) that missed the set as they can get it later (although at a cost).

    It is very good for the reseller that charges 2xRRP or more.

    But it probably means that money is not spent direct with lego / on current lego. Of course, lego make the initial sale to the reseller, but if they offer resellers discounts on RRP, then it means that they are not getting full value for that set - which they possibly would have done if the AFOL had bought it direct.
    It's good, VERY good, for anyone who, for whatever reason, wasn't able to get a set while it was out and is willing to pay a certain price to get it today.

    I think a lot of the discussion is for more recent retirements, meaning flipping for 2x RRP in a year or less. It gets hazy there because people do have to ask "why do I have to pay $400 for this set when it was $200 a month ago?" yet they don't ask "Why do I have to pay $500 for Cafe Corner?" The first is confusing and can be frustrating, the latter is accepted as the market price.

    cheshirecat
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,480
    Chang405 said:

    The fact that Lego sets are still maintaining or even doubling their value after retirement provides people peace of mind to buy more current sets than they would otherwise.

    I don't buy that.

    It's nice to know that lego holds it value, but I wouldn't buy more than I would have otherwise because of it. After all, a significant amount of lego sets do not hold their value, especially when opened and played with.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    CCC said:

    Good for whom?

    It is good for the AFOL (or kid) that missed the set as they can get it later (although at a cost).

    It is very good for the reseller that charges 2xRRP or more.

    Would you prefer the set be 5xRRP because no one went out and bought them to reseller later, so the only MISB copies are those that were bought for personal use and later sold due to lack of interest, time, etc.?

    On one hand, we talk about the glut of resellers holding down aftermarket prices, on the other, they are "bad" for aftermarket sets somehow?

    You can't have it both ways. :)

    Look at MMV? It can still be had for close to RRP 9 months post retirement. That is largely because of the huge number of sets stocked by resellers.

    That is good for AFOLs who missed it and now want a copy. A few years ago that would have been an instant $200 set.
    vitreolumdougtsnkx1jasorCam_n_StuYellowcastle
  • rancorbaitrancorbait Manitoba CanadaMember Posts: 1,842
    Pitfall69 said:

    ^Yes, they do, both positively and negatively. The question really is, how much do resellers affect the consumer in each way?

    I thought the question was "in what positive way?"
This discussion has been closed.

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