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Predictions on Discontinuing Sets and their Secondary Market Value

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Comments

  • samiam391samiam391 A Log Cabin in KY, United StatesMember Posts: 4,328
    @effinga- Buy them up, and just flip them straight away, and maybe even hold onto a few for next Christmas or the coming summer (when people start getting their Christmas decorations). Personally, with most likely a re-release of #10229 coming this next Christmas, I'd just buy them and flip them straight away, and hold onto a few for summer, and sell the rest than.

    Either way, you are guaranteed a nice $30 for each #10229. So why not?

    And as they always say, "profit never hurt anyone".
  • thenosthenos Twin Cities, MNMember Posts: 417
    effinga said:

    First post here. Any input is great. My local lego store has a bunch of #10229 winter village cottages marked down to $80. I see they are selling for ~$130-150 on eBay right now. Should I buy these up? Will lego produce more of these sets for next Christmas? How much do you think it could bring come next holiday season? Any help is much appreciated. Also they had the #10222 winter post office for $55. Thanks

    Where are you? My Lego store has been sold out of the cottage for awhile. I was going to buy one too. Now I'll just wait until the fall.
  • effingaeffinga Member Posts: 3
    samiam391 said:

    @effinga- Buy them up, and just flip them straight away, and maybe even hold onto a few for next Christmas or the coming summer (when people start getting their Christmas decorations). Personally, with most likely a re-release of #10229 coming this next Christmas, I'd just buy them and flip them straight away, and hold onto a few for summer, and sell the rest than.

    Either way, you are guaranteed a nice $30 for each #10229. So why not?

    And as they always say, "profit never hurt anyone".

    Thanks samiam. I grabbed 8 of them already. I may have to make another trip back tomorrow. Cheers

  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    effinga said:

    First post here. Any input is great. My local lego store has a bunch of #10229 winter village cottages marked down to $80. I see they are selling for ~$130-150 on eBay right now. Should I buy these up? Will lego produce more of these sets for next Christmas? How much do you think it could bring come next holiday season? Any help is much appreciated. Also they had the #10222 winter post office for $55. Thanks

    I just sold my last two on Ebay for $140 each, plus shipping. If my local store had them at $80, I'd buy them all and try to flip them right now. easy money. I wouldn't do it to hold them to next season however, as they will be back in stock at LEGO and other retailers for the $100 price.


  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    Decent price for the Cottage, but as mentioned before, both will be back next Holiday Season. Now, if you find a Bakery lying around I would scoop it up because I'm 99% sure it won't be coming back.
  • smellywormsmellyworm Member Posts: 34
    This discussion got me interested so I decided to go to the bay and look at prices. Not sure if something has changed but a ton of people have the cottage listed at 129 with free shipping. If you buy at 80 and say with tax you are talking closer to 90. Then you list the item and sell it for 129. After paying the listing and all fees plus shipping how much do you really make? Does not seem like much to me when you take into account that you actually have to work some to get all the crap done. That is assuming you actually sell the items. What gives?
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    Yes, I would flip them now or the summer.
  • itsnotmeitsnotme Member Posts: 112

    mathew said:

    With long distance space travel it doesn't quite work that way.

    Just consider... December 1903, watching Orville and Wilber Wright flying the first airplane, had someone then said that within a person's lifetime man would walk on the moon... that person would have been laughed at. (perhaps commited!)

    Warp drive, or whatever ends up being faster than light drive, is hard and impossible, right up until it isn't.

    How long was it between the time that fission was even discovered, and the first atomic bomb was exploded? Fission wasn't even known, until 1938. It only took 7 years between that, and the first atomic bomb explosion.

    Once the "secret" is found for FTL travel, it will come quickly.

    NASA Starts Work on Real Life Star Trek Warp Drive

  • cloaked7cloaked7 Member Posts: 1,448
    ^^ Yup, I don't know if $80 was with or without taxes. If not, then there will be $5-8 in taxes. As much in shipping, and around $15 in eBay and PayPal fees. So, the profit would be around $20-30 each. Pretty good profit for a quick flip, depending on what the value of your free time is.
    Pitfall69
  • samiam391samiam391 A Log Cabin in KY, United StatesMember Posts: 4,328
    cloaked7 said:

    ^^ Yup, I don't know if $80 was with or without taxes. If not, then there will be $5-8 in taxes. As much in shipping, and around $15 in eBay and PayPal fees. So, the profit would be around $20-30 each. Pretty good profit for a quick flip, depending on what the value of your free time is.


    Again.. no one ever got hurt making a profit!
  • hoyatableshoyatables Northern Virginia, USAMember Posts: 867
    Potomac mills in VA had a ton of Cottages on Sunday.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    ^Did you actually just say that? ...and you said it twice. You are definitely asking for trouble ;)
  • samiam391samiam391 A Log Cabin in KY, United StatesMember Posts: 4,328
    edited January 2013
    Pitfall69 said:

    ^Did you actually just say that? ...and you said it twice. You are definitely asking for trouble ;)

    Yes, no disclaimer, but I'm taking my chances on this one... ;-)
  • VaderXVaderX Member Posts: 220
    Never is a very strong word. They will never release 4 x-wings, they will Never release a new Jabba's Palace... See where I'm going with this?

    Whats stopping Lego from "re-releasing" any set previously made?

    How many MF have been made?

    Yes these are all star wars set's. In the end Lego is a company who is out to make a product for profit.

    Let's try not talk in absolutes :)
  • cloaked7cloaked7 Member Posts: 1,448
    ^ Yup, LEGO has proved they will re-release sets, especially iconic ones, and not just in SW. I don't know if you would define it as 'iconic', but they have made many Technic cranes, and will most likely make more crane models.

    Now, I don't think they will remake a modular, like Market Street. Maybe make something similar? But, do think they will come out with another Space Shuttle set one day. Probably not anytime soon. Some have posted a UCS Space Shuttle. Who knows if that would ever happen. But, would be a must buy for me if they did.
  • prevereprevere North of Bellville, East of Heartlake, South of Bricksburg, West of Ninjago City Member Posts: 2,896
    I wonder what will replace the SE? I love space stuff. Star Wars aside, Lego's current offerings for space are terrible. Without SE or a proper space line, there is a huge gap here waiting to be filled.
  • LegobrandonCPLegobrandonCP CanadaMember Posts: 1,912
    ^ I'm really hoping for a rover or the ISS.
  • prevereprevere North of Bellville, East of Heartlake, South of Bricksburg, West of Ninjago City Member Posts: 2,896
    ^Our only hope right now is Cuusoo approvals I think.

    I'm envisioning a new line of City/Town but Futuristic City/Town with monorails, flying cars, and whatever else your imagination can think of, maybe an Ed-209.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,098
    edited January 2013
    prevere said:


    I'm envisioning a new line of City/Town but Futuristic City/Town with monorails, flying cars, and whatever else your imagination can think of, maybe an Ed-209.

    Um, everything you said minus Ed-209. The possibility of Ed-209's roaming the streets is a distinct possibility in our gun loving, fear mongering American society. I want nothing to do with it especially in my Lego sets.
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    Wow! Ed-209. I haven't seen Robocop in years! Isn't that one of the movies that was filmed in the 80's and set in the "near future" that we have now actually surpassed? Detroit isn;t great.....but its not THAT bad!
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited January 2013
    cloaked7 said:

    ^ Yup, LEGO has proved they will re-release sets, especially iconic ones, and not just in SW. I don't know if you would define it as 'iconic', but they have made many Technic cranes, and will most likely make more crane models.

    Now, I don't think they will remake a modular, like Market Street. Maybe make something similar? But, do think they will come out with another Space Shuttle set one day. Probably not anytime soon. Some have posted a UCS Space Shuttle. Who knows if that would ever happen. But, would be a must buy for me if they did.

    there's a pretty big difference between a re-release and a re-hash. LEGO regularly rehashes Star Wars sets. Outside of the ill-fated Legends line a decade ago, they haven't done any re-releases at all.

    I think it's safe to say any future CC, MS, Death Star, UCS MF, etc release will be a complete redesign, not a straight re-release, if they even happen at all

  • prevereprevere North of Bellville, East of Heartlake, South of Bricksburg, West of Ninjago City Member Posts: 2,896
    mathew said:

    prevere said:


    I'm envisioning a new line of City/Town but Futuristic City/Town with monorails, flying cars, and whatever else your imagination can think of, maybe an Ed-209.

    Um, everything you said minus Ed-209. The possibility of Ed-209's roaming the streets is a distinct possibility in our gun loving, fear mongering American society. I want nothing to do with it especially in my Lego sets.
    Ah, c'mon. Ed-209 just had some bad programming. He's really a lot like Johnny 5.
    wagnerml2
  • YodaliciousYodalicious DagobahMember Posts: 1,366
    prevere said:

    ^Our only hope right now is Cuusoo approvals I think.

    I'm envisioning a new line of City/Town but Futuristic City/Town with monorails, flying cars, and whatever else your imagination can think of, maybe an Ed-209.

    Heck, just bring back a monorail period.
    Pitfall69LegobrandonCPPenkid11SharifaDougout
  • prevereprevere North of Bellville, East of Heartlake, South of Bricksburg, West of Ninjago City Member Posts: 2,896
    ^Agreed.

    LEGO Ed-209. Took about 1.3 seconds to find one.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    edited January 2013
    .
    wagnerml2 said:

    Wow! Ed-209. I haven't seen Robocop in years! Isn't that one of the movies that was filmed in the 80's and set in the "near future" that we have now actually surpassed? Detroit isn;t great.....but its not THAT bad!

    I would disagree with that. I live 40 mins from Detroit and it is a warzone there. Parts of Detroit look like it was a war torn third world country.
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    @pitfall69 - Yes, I agree, but still not as bad as the movie. I have a skewed view, though. I am the City Attorney for the city of E. St. Louis. Check that out sometime. Personally, I'd take a dozen Ed-209's to bolster my police force anyday!
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    dougts said:

    Outside of the ill-fated Legends line a decade ago, they haven't done any re-releases at all.

    #10152 Maersk Sealand Container Ship was re-released as #10155. Everything else you say is right, of course.

  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    I'd take St. Louis. At least you can win a Super Bowl and a World Series :) Come visit sometime. We will re enact the scene from Die Hard with a Vengeance, but you won't need to wear a sign...it doesn't matter.
    wagnerml2
  • cloaked7cloaked7 Member Posts: 1,448
    dougts said - there's a pretty big difference between a re-release and a re-hash. LEGO regularly rehashes Star Wars sets.

    Yup, good point. 're-hash' is more accurate.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    I actually liked a lot of the re-releases. I bought Fort Legoredo, Metroliner and sleeper car, Black Falcons Fortress and Guarded Inn. I missed out on them the first time.
  • gmpirategmpirate Member Posts: 1,654
    I don't see what the worry is about re-releases/re-hashes. If this is a problem for anyone I would suggest they are holding onto sets too long. There's a window.
  • Tevans333Tevans333 Member Posts: 152
    edited January 2013
    Pitfall69 said:

    wagnerml2 said:

    Wow! Ed-209. I haven't seen Robocop in years! Isn't that one of the movies that was filmed in the 80's and set in the "near future" that we have now actually surpassed? Detroit isn;t great.....but its not THAT bad!

    I would disagree with that. I live 40 mins from Detroit and it is a warzone there. Parts of Detroit look like it was a war torn third world country.
    Well that explains why I never see any good deals in my area, I'm 30 minutes north myself:)
  • DiggydoesDiggydoes Cologne/GermanyMember Posts: 1,079
    Whoa,i've just checked the prices for #10231 on ebay here in Germany,the cheapest BIN is 160€ (almost double the retail-price)i've watched also a auction which ended at 145€! Is it also doing so well in the US/UK?
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    gmpirate said:

    I don't see what the worry is about re-releases/re-hashes. If this is a problem for anyone I would suggest they are holding onto sets too long. There's a window.

    I think it's because many of us are also collectors and not just purely resellers.

    For instance, I owned originals of each of the sets that were re-released as Legends. Even though I had no intent to sell, the value of those original sets were halved overnight. The value of one's collection is still important even if unrealized, just as the value of my home or retirement portfolio are.

    Another factor, which has been mentioned before, is that habitual rehashes and re-releases might severely compromise LEGO being viewed as a collectible.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,405
    edited January 2013
    Tevans333 said:

    Pitfall69 said:

    .

    wagnerml2 said:

    Wow! Ed-209. I haven't seen Robocop in years! Isn't that one of the movies that was filmed in the 80's and set in the "near future" that we have now actually surpassed? Detroit isn;t great.....but its not THAT bad!

    I would disagree with that. I live 40 mins from Detroit and it is a warzone there. Parts of Detroit look like it was a war torn third world country.
    Well that explains why I never see any good deals in my area, I'm 30 minutes north myself:)
    Ha, good deals? From me?

  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited January 2013
    rocao said:

    I think it's because many of us are also collectors and not just purely resellers.

    For instance, I owned originals of each of the sets that were re-released as Legends. Even though I had no intent to sell, the value of those original sets were halved overnight. The value of one's collection is still important even if unrealized, just as the value of my home or retirement portfolio are.

    Another factor, which has been mentioned before, is that habitual rehashes and re-releases might severely compromise LEGO being viewed as a collectible.

    I don't think LEGO cares one wit if it's thought of as collectible or not. I'd wager 99%+ of all sets sold are opened and used, and that seems to be what they are aiming for in any case. Regardless, LEGO has been pretty clear of late about not being interested in re-releasing previously made sets exactly as-is, so anyone afraid of that is being irrational for the most part. Re-hashes pretty much only exist in the Star Wars world at this point - and we all know we are going to keep getting them, so no surprises there. Excepting of course the evergreen City theme and it's non-stop parade of police and fire sets.

    As for your first point - it's largely an internal factor with the particular collector, and not something of macro affect. if you never intend to sell, it doesn't affect resale prices at all.

    I have many sets that I collect. I don't know and don't care what their "value" is today, tomorrow, or 10 years from now, since I'm not going to sell them. the value to me is exactly the same whether it's theoretically worth $100 or $1000

  • prevereprevere North of Bellville, East of Heartlake, South of Bricksburg, West of Ninjago City Member Posts: 2,896
    edited January 2013
    ^

    But let's say you own a sealed UCS MF. You're a bricksetter, and informed on what's happening with new launches. Lego announces it's producing a new UCS MF with a price tag of $600. You're not going to sell the old one for $2k, then buy the new one for $600 and make $1,400?
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    ^^ There will always be a difference, and that difference is what makes the original more valuable. Even if the difference is in the packaging. I used to own a sports card shop. Back in the 90's Topps remade every card in the 1952 set. This was Mickey Mantle's Rookie year and his Rookie card was iconic in the hobby and commanded upwards of $30k for a nice copy. The remakes were identical to the original except for a copyright date on the back of the card tha you needed a mircoscope to read. THe reprints were literally worthless.

    Not that a re-made UCS Falcon would be worthless, but the original unopenned is still going to have collector value because of its either real or perceived scarcity. There will always be some distinguishing difference that will set them apart.

    At least my 2 cent. THat said, I hope they do somday reissue as that set is my one regret since i emerged from my dark ages 12 years ago!
  • RennyRenny USAMember Posts: 1,145
    Don't mean to detract from the current discussion but I'm a little surprised at the quick price spike the Queen Anne's Revenge is at right now. I knew it would do well but it looks like it is steadily selling for $210+ right now. Black Pearl has gone up as well but only by $20 above msrp so far. Nice.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited January 2013
    prevere said:

    ^

    But let's say you own a sealed UCS MF. You're a bricksetter, and informed on what's happening with new launches. Lego announces it's producing a new UCS MF with a price tag of $600. You're not going to sell the old one for $2k, then buy the new one for $600 and make $1,400?

    Of course I would but that sealed set would be for resale anyway. I don't collect sealed sets - my collection is all opened

    In any case I don't think a rehash would affect the value of 10179 much anyway, since it would be a completely different design
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    ^^I always felt the QAR would be the better performer of the two. It was not found on sale as often or as much % versus BP. So probably much less supply out there for this one, same on Maersk vs. EN.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    edited January 2013
    dougts said:

    I don't think LEGO cares one wit if it's thought of as collectible or not. I'd wager 99%+ of all sets sold are opened and used, and that seems to be what they are aiming for in any case.

    When I say collectible, I don't necessarily mean MISB and never to be built (although surely LEGO doesn't mind if some people choose to do that, also).

    Examples of TLG's cognizance and reinforcement of LEGO's collectibility are plenty:

    They've slapped the label on the "Ultimate Collector Series". The exclusive sets offered to retailers imply collectibility with "limited edition" and "exclusive" badges. They've distributed some items with limited numbering, e.g. 1 of 10000 -- Santa Fe, UCS MF, ToyFair & Comic-con giveaways, even posters from last year.

    They create a collecting dynamic with their series-style releases of CMFs, Ninjago spinners, Friends polybags, Star Wars Planet sets, and frequently use the term in advertising: "Collect all 16" CMFs, "Collect" the Star Wars planets which come with "Collector's" plaques, etc.

    There is deliberateness in spreading out unique minifigures across the sets in a theme. Most sets in a theme are meant to integrate with one another, and many themes have a "product collection" offering. All this reinforces the behavior to amass the product.
    dougts said:

    As for your first point - it's largely an internal factor with the particular collector, and not something of macro affect. if you never intend to sell, it doesn't affect resale prices at all.

    Right, two points, though:

    1) I was speaking beyond a resell context, which is why I started by saying we're not purely resellers. I view people worrying or having problem with re-releases and re-hashes as more than a resale value issue but a broader issue about how we acquire and view the product.

    2) Although I don't buy sets for my personal collection with definitive plans for when and how to sell them, their value is a component since I know that if it ever became necessary to liquidate, I could. That's why I drew comparisons to my home or retirement portfolio; I don't plan on cashing out of those but if the need arose, it's good to know I can.
  • BastaBasta Australia Member Posts: 1,259
    @wagnerml2 there is a difference though, with baseball cards it mostly about the collecting, people willing to spend 30K on a card want that card because it is rare and worth $x amount, most would be looking at it as an investment as well. Even a $2000 card is not going to go into a stack of cards held together with a rubber band and thrown around a toy chest as a current 50c card might. It is not going to be "played" with

    Although there are some people who will buy a UCS MF purely for collectability and never open it. A large part of those in the market for a UCS MF are those who think it is a cool set and want to build it (Me included when I get the cash), I would imaging if TLG released another one just as good or better most would snap it up and not worry about the original set. This will reduce the price some what, sure its still going to be worth more then the new set.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    edited January 2013
    ^^ I should expand a bit on what I mean when I say "how we acquire and view the product".

    There's the completist aspect of collecting. The problem is obviously a result of our own behavior, but it's nevertheless a nuisance when TLG rehashes a set with minimal change ( #7140 and #7142 ; #7150 and #7152 ; #10152 and #10155 ) that we're compelled to also purchase, despite owning the original.

    There's the enthusiast aspect, where we are eager to consume as many new and diverse models as TLG can put forth, but instead see product slots taken up by stale material.

    Apologies if you or gmpirate are speaking purely about the resell impact, but I think when we talk about people not liking re-releases and re-hashes, it includes these factors.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,552
    I'm not too bothered if they re-release an old set from the financial point of view. If it is a set I like that I originally bought for £100 and it rose to £250, and then a new version was released at £150 so mine dropped back down to £150, it wouldn't really bother me. The new set would always cost more than the old set did originally if it is similar, and it is unlikely for the old set to drop below the new one's price. It would have to be a real improvement for the old one to be worth less. One place this has happened is with the ewok minifigs. The old ones with no printing suck compared to the newer versions.


    The problem I have with similar re-releases is that there is a slot gone for something new. If there are only a finite number of sets released every year, and one of them I already have from an earlier release, then it might put me off buying.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited January 2013
    rocao said:


    Examples of TLG's cognizance and reinforcement of LEGO's collectibility are plenty:

    - They've slapped the label on the "Ultimate Collector Series".
    - The exclusive sets offered to retailers imply collectibility with "limited edition" and "exclusive" badges.
    - series-style releases of CMFs, Ninjago spinners, Friends polybags, Star Wars Planet sets, and frequently use the term in advertising:

    all of this is marketing though - that is, it's all being done deliberately to sell more product. it's just nomenclature - these things aren't really rare or "collectible" in the sense that you think of in terms of true collector's items, which is all about rarity. The event exclusives are the one possible exception, but I would submit that they don't give them away because they are looking to be thought of as a collectible toy company, they do it for the other reasons - it's SOP for conventions, it generate traffic and buzz and excitement, etc.

    They aren't doing this stuff to become a "collectible" item - they are doing it to sell product, and it has proven to work. Labeling something as "collectible" doesn't mean it actually is - or even that that's the way they view themselves, which I am pretty sure they don't. But it moves product, and that's what it is about.

    1) I was speaking beyond a resell context, which is why I started by saying we're not purely resellers. I view people worrying or having problem with re-releases and re-hashes as more than a resale value issue but a broader issue about how we acquire and view the product.
    There's the completist aspect of collecting. The problem is obviously a result of our own behavior, but it's nevertheless a nuisance when TLG rehashes a set with minimal change ( #7140 and #7142 ; #7150 and #7152 ; #10152 and #10155 ) that we're compelled to also purchase, despite owning the original.

    There's the enthusiast aspect, where we are eager to consume as many new and diverse models as TLG can put forth, but instead see product slots taken up by stale material.
    well, I see your point on the completist part. I guess each collector has to decide how completist they need/want to be - and it is a problem in the case of re-hashes and the extremely rare re-releases.

    as for the enthusiast aspect, I think we all agree. And I also think it's a non-issue. We aren't going to be seeing straight-up re-releases in any theme, outside of some extremely rare exceptions - so that's a non-issues. As for re-hashes, the only place we really see those are in themes where there aren't really viable alternatives - Sopwith being an exception I suppose. Hard to fault LEGO for making SW or City sets that will actually sell. I have zero concern about re-hashes on modulars or large scale models, or most other themes - licensed or not.


  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,552
    dougts said:

    As for re-hashes, the only place we really see those are in themes where there aren't really viable alternatives - Sopwith being an exception I suppose. Hard to fault LEGO for making SW or City sets that will actually sell.

    I guess this is the problem. Kids want a fire station and police station. They want a hospital. They want an X-wing.

    So either there is one model of each that is out forever, or they retire them then bring out newer versions.
  • cloaked7cloaked7 Member Posts: 1,448
    That's an excellent point. I think at times we forget LEGOS are toys and mainly for kids. Sure LEGO realized there are AFOL's, but I'm sure we take a back seat to kids, and rightfully so.

    That being the case I think it's fair to say that it is much more likely to see a re-hash of a set that is more for kids than one that's more for adults. i.e. a much greater chance of a rehash of a City Fire Station or SW X-Wing than a rehash of a Sopwith Camel.
  • LegofanscottLegofanscott Member Posts: 622
    cloaked7 said:

    That's an excellent point. I think at times we forget LEGOS are toys and mainly for kids. Sure LEGO realized there are AFOL's, but I'm sure we take a back seat to kids, and rightfully so.

    That being the case I think it's fair to say that it is much more likely to see a re-hash of a set that is more for kids than one that's more for adults. i.e. a much greater chance of a rehash of a City Fire Station or SW X-Wing than a rehash of a Sopwith Camel.

    The Sopwith is a rehash itself though;)
  • JP3804JP3804 Member Posts: 332
    ^ 11 years. I would say that is about the right timing.
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