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The Community Perspective on Reselling

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Comments

  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    edited October 2012
    Anyway, I think thats it for me and this thread. We were asked why the anger towards resellers and I think we've demonstrated why we might not hold them in particularly high regard. Agree or disagree with the reasoning all you like, but its there.

    Its interesting that many feel sorry for the kid stood next to you as you fill your trolley, but then ignore the kid down the next aisle or the one coming through the door or even the one down the street, they may be hypothetical but the ones online surely aren't. Perhaps its just that you don't have to look them in the eyes?

    Nothings going to change, its with us now and will be for some time to come and as you say, if not me then someone else. So good luck to you as I would much rather a reseller here who has some love for the box contents than one of the many others who just see it as a commodity.

    PS - just seen @Amberyl post - whose to say i don't? I think its appauling that lack of value we put on many items (food in particular) and the amount of value we put on commercialised pointlessness (cheap plastic toys, the whole disposable culture, apple products). The book looks interesting, I'll give it a read (now i don't have to read this thread I'll have some spare time!) Although I would argue that LEGO is already a fairly high priced, high quality item.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,813

    ^ As would I. I know of one or two that changed hands along with some city alarms.

    I know of one superman set that came my way, along with a few other sets including city alarm, from a nice chap (leemcg, I think) but as part of a trade. Which is why I try to pick up more than I will actually use when buying discounted stock. I find it is much easier to trade something worth £10 that I bought for £5 with someone who has something worth £10 that they paid £5 for, than it is to buy for £5 something worth £10 that they bought for £5.

    Which makes me no real different to a reseller, which is why I have to approve of what they do, since I do the same. I buy things I don't actually want to get something I do want.
  • doriansdaddoriansdad CTCMember Posts: 1,337
    Well the issue seems to be making money on Lego. It seems that if a person was to clear shelves and give the sets to a charity then people on this board would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves and offer the sets on this board for sale at the clearance price people would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves because they needed pieces for an MOC then that is fine as well. If, and only if, the set is resold for more than the clearance price without being opened do folks get bent out of shape.

    So my questions is are folks upset because money is being made, or are they upset because money is being made from their beloved Lego? I suspect there is a small percentage that just don't want anyone else to succeed, period. I get it, I don't agree with it, but I get it. They feel everyone should be on the same level regardless of resources or effort. Next we have the group who seem to think Lego is about a building experience and nothing else. They think if you buy a set without any intention of opening the box then you are crazy, you don't get Lego, you are not fit to be called an AFOL. Again I get where you are coming from but I cannot be so close minded.

    Personally I enjoy ALL aspects of Lego from building, to collecting, to charity, to reselling, to seeing folks succeed with a reselling business and especially being able to employ others. I think it is quite fantastic that someone can get so much out of a hobby that I enjoy. I think others need to expand their thinking a bit and look at the big picture rather than just focusing on their own situation. This is not a zero sum game. Nobody is blocking your ability to rise.
    gmpirateCCCTyoSoloBumblepants
  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843
    edited October 2012
    @cheshirecat Regarding children, I was referring to self-praise. People who let everybody know how unselfish they are, usually follow quite a selfish goal in doing so.

    Although I welcome anybody's opinions about resellers and don't feel personally addressed, I still can't see how generalised comments such as "resellers are parasitic/make the world a worse place" are not offensive and personal. However, my point is the general hypocrisy of objecting on this forum to what effectively is a neutral comment ("Hooray, 10 UCS MF") compared to degrading statements ("parasitic resellers").

    You then turn to say the logic that "internet deals wouldn't OOS so quickly" is flawed but show absolutely no proof that it is.

    Fair enough, I will elaborate:

    First, you assert that it is due to resellers that online deals vanish quickly. Can you prove that? Otherwise, is it not more prudent to assume that any reseller's spot is quickly taken over by bricksetters, bargain hunters, or "ordinary Lego fans"?

    Second, as @Amberyl and others have pointed out, the idea of clearance is to turn inventory quickly. I.e. if Amazon can't get rid of surplus stock as quickly as possible, they will just reduce it further until they do. If Amazon discounts remaining stock and sells it within a day, that is by design, not chance. If they had more time, they would reduce less (and profit more/lose less). If they had less time, they would reduce more.

    Third, as I have said before, resellers don't only buy stock, they also sell it again. Presumably to ordinary Lego fans, and logic dictates that eBay prices are lower than RRP. This is self-evident. All things being equal, ordinary Lego fans won't buy a normal, current set at RRP or more on eBay. So eBay prices must be lower. In other words, resellers offer ordinary Lego fans a discount on sets which these fans for whatever reason can't or won't take advantage of (because Amazon doesn't deliver to them, or they don't live near a Tesco, or can't get a Stig).

    I could go on, but I really think I made the point.

    Bricksetters grabbing (in particular) online deals for other bricksetters is probably largely a result of deals going OOS because of resellers, if it didn't happen we wouldn't feel the need to grab them for others - and in general the numbers there are going to be small.

    Can you prove that? Otherwise, as I said before, to me this seems to be the usual narrative to blame resellers for absolutely everything.

    When bricksetters trade their local deals among each other, they profit just as much, if not more, than any reseller. Which is fine by me. The only difference is that no money ever changes hands.

    As for sets not reselling at or above RRP, history shows they do, LFT's warehouse of stock bought at 20-30% suggests they do to.

    You appear to be more privy to @LegoFanTexas' operation than me. In any way, LFT (who I consider a model community member here) and his operation are certainly not typical for reseller activities, and I understand that his main source of profit lies more in speculation what set will rise in value after EOL, and less in skimming online discounts. But that is mainly speculation on my part.

    In any way, current sets usually sell for less than RRP on eBay, unless there is a particularly daft bidder. Why would anybody in the UK buy a set for more than RRP on eBay if they can get it at RRP or less at Tesco, Amazon, Lego, etc., often with free delivery?

    I find it hard to believe that there was any more motivation in a reseller when they were going up those tesco aisles than how much money they can make.

    Yes, point taken. You don't like that. Fair enough.

    But you seem to try and rationalise it and make it into a moral high ground: "It was done for profit's sake. Hence it was bad." That is naive. Truth is, generally speaking, most people only engage in activity if there is a profit in it for them. That's not necessarily money. It can be standing, or admiration, or the assumption of a favour returned in the future (see brickset). And that in itself is not bad. Quite on the contrary, profit from a win-win situation is good. That's the principle idea behind division of labour.

    It is when people force profit by deteriorating the situation for everybody else that it becomes corrupt. If that's what you are afraid of, then I agree. But then you are comparing resellers to Wall St. and apples to oranges. (And for the sake of completeness, Wall St. is not more responsible than the average voter. But that's a discussion for another time.)

    And that brings me back full circle. Some people still don't like it. But rather than practicing introspective and finding out why they feel the way they do, they rationalise it and inevitably come up with the "children"-argument: "The children suffer!" A statement impossible to refute: who would willfully disagree when the well-being of children is at stake?

    Ok, I feel another off-topic/talk to much moment coming on, so for the time being, I will keep out of this thread. No disrespect intended. Yeah, I like sticking in the proverbial needle from time to time.

    Still, a bit more respect for resellers would be appreciated.
    Redbullgivesuwind
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    edited October 2012
    mressin said:

    I am pretty baffled about the ignorance, hypocrisy and flawed logic in this thread. But above all, the offensiveness really stands out.

    I was tempted to compile some of the more hard-hitting statements, attributing them to their authors. Halfway through, I waned, worried I might offend people. Then I thought, hey, I already poured some work into this. So here goes:

    So far, the following has been expressed or implied (in no particular order):
    - Resellers are uncaring ( @Thego).
    - Resellers create an unfair world ( @pvancil27).
    - Resellers are parasites, exclusively benefitting at the expense of others ( @intromission).
    - Resellers work for money, so despite their work being of use to everyone, they can be treated contemptuously ( @NiceMarmot).
    - Resellers are criminal, obsessive, unscrupulous, lazy, overweight and greedy (just like the Al McWhiggin-character from Toy Story 2 - @mathew).
    - Resellers are responsible when clearance sales don't turn even cheaper ( @NiceMarmot - Right! Without resellers, we would all get Lego for free!)
    - Resellers are at fault if you can't get a deal online ( @Bosstone, @AnthonyC173).
    - (There are those who say that) Resellers are unethical, mean-spirited for not passing on savings, and ruin a friendly community ( @drdavewatford).
    - Resellers only think on how to make a profit from Lego, and on top are selfish, greedy, bad for community and society, morally bancrupt, and generally make the world a worse place ( @cheshirecat).
    - Resellers are anti-community and don't help others out ( @greekmick).
    - Resellers get the sales I the kids want. They make me kids cry. For god's sake, think of me the children! (too many...).

    I hope you community-driven people will forgive me. :)

    Now, let's get to a real problem: Since it's ok to brag about how charitable a person one is ( @sadowsk1), let me tell you about all the sales I did not participate in! All the children who got cheap Lego because of me - I am so proud! <- sarcasm</p>

    I want to be completely fair, and since I would put myself in the most of the categories you listed and give my counter arguments for each:

    - Resellers are uncaring ( @Thego). - To a lesser degree, they are uncaring. They are more concerned with the profit levels then anything else. That required putting fiscal gain above people.

    - Resellers create an unfair world ( @pvancil27). - I actually dont think they create an unfair world, I do think they (at times) create unfair situations. (and que the "Life isnt fair" retort here.)

    - Resellers are parasites, exclusively benefitting at the expense of others ( @intromission). - They are parasites and they do benefit at the expense of others.

    - Resellers work for money, so despite their work being of use to everyone, they can be treated contemptuously ( @NiceMarmot). - I'm not really sure what you are really saying here, and I must have missed this argument. I do hold resellers in contempt as a group but I also have never treated one personally with contempt. I can dislike the action without disliking the person.

    - Resellers are criminal, obsessive, unscrupulous, lazy, overweight and greedy (just like the Al McWhiggin-character from Toy Story 2 - @mathew). Resellers are not Criminal unless they sell stolen stock, They can be obsessive, its how they ususally know the sales before anyone else and camp computers at midnight of 3 am for sales. I do think they are somewhat unscrupulous in their practices. Some might be lazy and some might be Overweight but I'm sure most are not. I do think they are 100% greedy.

    - Resellers are responsible when clearance sales don't turn even cheaper ( @NiceMarmot - Right! Without resellers, we would all get Lego for free!) - This one I get the argument but actually agree with you that its kinda iffy at best.

    - Resellers are at fault if you can't get a deal online ( @Bosstone, @AnthonyC173). - When they buy massive amounts and cause sales to last extremely short times, this is true. This doesnt bother me so much if they buy their limit, its the ones who say have 10 Amazon accounts that they use to skirt ordering limits.

    - (There are those who say that) Resellers are unethical, mean-spirited for not passing on savings, and ruin a friendly community ( @drdavewatford). - I think you can argue the ethics of reselling and never get a clear right or wrong, I will say it's a grey area that I can see both sides on. I dont think passing on savings is mean spirited per say but it also isnt promoting the idea of a community of like minded collectors helping each other out with their hobby. And I dont think it ruins it, but I do think it seriously changes the way a community functions.

    - Resellers only think on how to make a profit from Lego, and on top are selfish, greedy, bad for community and society, morally bancrupt, and generally make the world a worse place ( @cheshirecat). - Go read the reseller thread. Their main thought process is the profit levels on lego. There are stories in there about how they have thought about building a set then chooseing not to just because of the value of it in terms or resale value. Buying items with the intention of reselling for profit with little to no regard to others is selfish and greedy. I do think resellers who want to profit off other people do make the world a worse place (but as Cheshirecat said, very very marginally.)

    - Resellers are anti-community and don't help others out ( @greekmick). - Some do help others out, but most times It's usually with some condition added. LFT for example offers set up for a decent price from time to time, but its usually damaged box items that he doesn't want to deal with trying to sell via his other methods.

    - Resellers get the sales I the kids want. They make me kids cry. For god's sake, think of me the children! - Is it really so passe to be considerate of other people now a days?


    I've said it in the other thread, and I'll say it again. If someone says "I do it for the money, I dont care if you like it" then great. I'll still dislike the action of reselling, I'll still think they are greedy and selfish, but I will at least respect them. My biggest issue with so many of the resellers on this forum specifically is they seem to try and validate what they do with this "I am doing the hobby a service by providing old product to them" when the pure truth is profit is why its done, plain and simple, the fact that someone benefits from it is a pretty distant second in most cases. (Then you can also argue the cost/benefit angles on is the costs outweigh the benefit and vise versa.)

    cheshirecatAnthonyC173thornie
  • leemcgleemcg Member Posts: 607
    CCC said:

    ^ As would I. I know of one or two that changed hands along with some city alarms.

    I know of one superman set that came my way, along with a few other sets including city alarm, from a nice chap (leemcg, I think) but as part of a trade. Which is why I try to pick up more than I will actually use when buying discounted stock. I find it is much easier to trade something worth £10 that I bought for £5 with someone who has something worth £10 that they paid £5 for, than it is to buy for £5 something worth £10 that they bought for £5.

    Which makes me no real different to a reseller, which is why I have to approve of what they do, since I do the same. I buy things I don't actually want to get something I do want.
    Indeed that was me. I passed on a couple of Superman's to members here. That left me with 6. I haven't actually sold any of them for a profit. They have been excellent 6th birthday gifts. I'm sure that's where they'll all go, except one which one of my boys is saving up 100 good-boy stars for.

    But your point about swapping discounts is a very good one. I had to be lucky enough to have the right day off work, to decide to go to Tescos. It was my first ever hit on big bargains. I was very happy to keep them, but it was very handy to get different items via swaps.

    As I was happy to have them anyway, I didn't feel comfortable selling them on at cost price, but I did go back to the shop to pick up a set I wasn't interested in at 75% on passed that on at cost. The Karma worked well because I found 49p CMFs on a different shelf.

  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843
    edited October 2012
    I promised to leave this thread alone but just can't let this one go:
    pvancil27 said:

    They are parasites and they do benefit at the expense of others.

    You know, I wasn't even arguing about the inaccuracy of each statement as I assumed it's glaringly obvious. It's primarily the decline in manners that I lamented, i.e. the acceptance of expression of open contempt and disrespect in this form and forum.
    Again, I'm baffled somebody went for it and argued the statement itself. I'll get there in a minute.
    pvancil27 said:

    Resellers are responsible when clearance sales don't turn even cheaper ( NiceMarmot - Right! Without resellers, we would all get Lego for free!) - This one I get the argument but actually agree with you that its kinda iffy at best.

    "Kind of" iffy? Totally bonkers!

    If anybody is responsible for expensive Lego, it's that daft crowd who buys at RRP. If we all waited long enough, we could buy Lego at 10%! Because Mark Stafford works for admiration and goodwill, and TLG runs on children's laughter. Just like Monsters, Inc. Profit is evil! Lego is good! Hence, Lego has nothing to do with profit! Lego can't go bankrupt! Hahahaha...
    pvancil27 said:

    Resellers get the sales I the kids want. They make me kids cry. For god's sake, think of me the children! - Is it really so passe to be considerate of other people now a days?

    Not at all. That's why nobody says "I am angry at myself because I couldn't be asked to leave the couch and as a result didn't get in on that Tesco deal."
    Instead, just say "I am angry at those parasitic resellers because the children didn't get in on that Tesco deal."
    Get it?
    pvancil27 said:

    My biggest issue with so many of the resellers on this forum specifically is they seem to try and validate what they do with this "I am doing the hobby a service by providing old product to them" when the pure truth is profit is why its done, plain and simple, the fact that someone benefits from it is a pretty distant second in most cases.

    Absolutely. That's the parasite-argument, right? I wanted to get back to that, but unfortunately, I have lost the address of these good people who sell all old MISB Lego sets at original RRP. I am sure they still have a UCS MF left over. Can you give me their number?
    I also can't find that reseller anymore who sold to the lowest bidder. Is it conceivable that he has gone out of business?
    Redbullgivesuwind
  • collect_thatcollect_that Kidderminster, EnglandMember Posts: 1,327
    Such long posts, why such long posts? But alas so little LEGO to be found ANYWHERE!!!!

    It really disheartens me that regardless of what we do or don't approve of, members are fuelling these threads and forgetting the reason why we joined this forum in the first place!! Which I would like to think is our mutual love of LEGO and to discuss that!!
  • Bosstone100Bosstone100 USAMember Posts: 1,434
    edited October 2012
    @rmessin - so where exactly did I say "Resellers are at fault if you can't get a deal online" ? Feel free to let me know because I went into my profile and checked all of my comments since this thread opened and I don't see it.

    Thanks.
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    I'll be honest, as this thread has progressed, I swore I was not going to post more than I did earlier, but I will.

    I have cleared the shelves at a Walmart or Kmart clearance on occassions that I was fortunate enough to be the one who got there first. In some instances I took time off work (of which I have a very good job and do not need to re-sell for a living). My normal route covers 7 Kmarts and takes about 3-4 hours to complete. When I get to the Kmart or Walmart, sometimes the items are not necessarily marked clearance and you have to price check them, or find them because someone else has hidden them in an attempt to come back later. Point being that you have to search for the deals.

    I say this because one of the things I love about it is the thrill of the hunt. I like finding the sets and being able to tease some of my local AFOLs with whom I have become friends. It becomes a game. I always will offer them some in trade or to buy, if they want.

    I sell on Ebay, Bricklink, Brickset, Toysnbricks and Craigslist. By the time I go through the process of pricing, shipping and paying fees, I'm sure I am not making nearly what I think I am, and I am definitely making far less than I do when spending time at my job, but I enjoy it, so I don't care.

    A few points, whether people like it or not, Lego has become very collectable. As a collectable, it will have an inflated aftermarket. This will contribute to more people looking to hold sets for resale at a later date. Perhaps lego will follow the path of the sports card industy and the market will collapse. If this happens, then the cost of lego as a toy for builders will crash and you may get tons of cheap bricks. Or maybe it won't. Either way, the aftermarket is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

    Finally, there are people who have commented on this thread and who have made some, what I consider to be, very derrogatory remarks towards resellers. These same people are people to whom I have traded some very large and expensive OOP sealed sets for sets still in production. I lost money on those trades, but did so to help them out. I could have held on to these sets and made quite a profit. I say this to not make myself look good, I say this because I think EVERYONE should reread their posts before they hit the "post" button. Sweeping generalizations are almost never accurate, and sometime a bit hypocritical in the process.

    As I said earlier, I no longer post my hauls. I have no problem helping out other bricksetters. I respect others differing views and welcome them, but I can't understand the derrogatory remarks.
    mressinCCCdragonhawkRedbullgivesuwindTyoSolo
  • AnthonyC173AnthonyC173 Member Posts: 101
    edited October 2012
    I've said it in the other thread, and I'll say it again. If someone says "I do it for the money, I dont care if you like it" then great. I'll still dislike the action of reselling, I'll still think they are greedy and selfish, but I will at least respect them. My biggest issue with so many of the resellers on this forum specifically is they seem to try and validate what they do with this "I am doing the hobby a service by providing old product to them" when the pure truth is profit is why its done, plain and simple, the fact that someone benefits from it is a pretty distant second in most cases. (Then you can also argue the cost/benefit angles on is the costs outweigh the benefit and vise versa.)
    you speak the truth my friend. Resellers should be honest and just admit that their top priority is making money. Maybe they do have good intention and try to get sets for other people, but if "profit" was completely out of the equation im sure there won't be a single reseller in the world.
    I think its kinda lowbrow to try to justify reselling in anything other than "profit".
    My parents told me, and sure your own have told you, just be honest. Its better to know a person and see where they stand, instead of someone nice who hides impure intentions.
  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843

    I just had a walmart.com Town Hall in my cart at $132 and by the time I grabbed my credit card, it told me they were out of stock. This is getting a bit aggravating.

    Since it was in this thread, I assumed you implied it was a reseller who snatched it away?
  • AnthonyC173AnthonyC173 Member Posts: 101

    pvancil27 said:

    prof1515 said:

    No one is entitled to Lego.

    You are 100% right. No one is entitled to Lego. What they should be entitled to is a FAIR SHOT at getting Lego.
    Why? Life is not fair...
    Ahhhh the famous line said to my dad after he lost his job, the line said to me when i was bullied at school. Now it's here... "life isn't fair" a line used by people who are physically or economically more powerful than other.
    pvancil27LegoFanTexasRedbullgivesuwind
  • Bosstone100Bosstone100 USAMember Posts: 1,434
    @mressin - not quite but maybe I should have posted it in another thread.

    If anything, I blame myself for insisting on a 7-3:30p shift at work. Makes it impossible for to be up late to snag deals.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,813


    you speak the truth my friend. Resellers should be honest and just admit that their top priority is making money. Maybe they do have good intention and try to get sets for other people, but if "profit" was completely out of the equation im sure there won't be a single reseller in the world.
    I think its kinda lowbrow to try to justify reselling in anything other than "profit".
    My parents told me, and sure your own have told you, just be honest. Its better to know a person and see where they stand, instead of someone nice who hides impure intentions.

    Then others have to be honest too. Anyone that thinks they have the right to cheap lego is also motivated by money. If they aren't bothered by the money, then why are they waiting for discount sales? They should be buying at full price during the years that the set is in production.
    TyoSolotedward
  • doriansdaddoriansdad CTCMember Posts: 1,337
    ^ So the question is why is making a profit frowned upon? Reselling for profit (and alot of cases losses after everything is factored in) should not cause jealousy or anger in others. Nobody who attempts to resell to make money has unequal access to these products. Nobody reselling is making millions and sucking resources out of the local economy by stashing these funds in an offshore account in the Cayman Islands. I think this is tall poppy syndrome at its worst.
    AnthonyC173Redbullgivesuwind
  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843
    @bosstone No harm intended. As I wrote, I was just trying to illustrate the decline in form. That probably didn't really apply to your post then.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290

    Well the issue seems to be making money on Lego. It seems that if a person was to clear shelves and give the sets to a charity then people on this board would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves and offer the sets on this board for sale at the clearance price people would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves because they needed pieces for an MOC then that is fine as well. If, and only if, the set is resold for more than the clearance price without being opened do folks get bent out of shape.

    So my questions is are folks upset because money is being made, or are they upset because money is being made from their beloved Lego?

    I'm curious to hear the answer to this from those with anti-reseller sentiment.

  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843
    edited October 2012
    rocao said:

    So my questions is are folks upset because money is being made, or are they upset because money is being made from their beloved Lego?

    I'm curious to hear the answer to this from those with anti-reseller sentiment.
    I suspect the answer might be along the lines of "Folks are upset because somebody exhibited a skill and determination I believe I don't have, and on top of that were rewarded by getting something I didn't get."
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    ^ I actually think and hope that for most it is a different reason, but I'll let them respond.
  • AnthonyC173AnthonyC173 Member Posts: 101
    CCC said:


    you speak the truth my friend. Resellers should be honest and just admit that their top priority is making money. Maybe they do have good intention and try to get sets for other people, but if "profit" was completely out of the equation im sure there won't be a single reseller in the world.
    I think its kinda lowbrow to try to justify reselling in anything other than "profit".
    My parents told me, and sure your own have told you, just be honest. Its better to know a person and see where they stand, instead of someone nice who hides impure intentions.

    Then others have to be honest too. Anyone that thinks they have the right to cheap lego is also motivated by money. If they aren't bothered by the money, then why are they waiting for discount sales? They should be buying at full price during the years that the set is in production.
    im a huge lego fan who doesn't have a lot of money to spend on lego like some of the people here, But i really enjoy building and displaying them and never plan on re-selling. But yes you are right, i buy cheap lego because i am motivated by saving money. but i think it there is a difference from saving and making money.
    tedward
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,813
    edited October 2012


    im a huge lego fan who doesn't have a lot of money to spend on lego like some of the people here, But i really enjoy building and displaying them and never plan on re-selling. But yes you are right, i buy cheap lego because i am motivated by saving money. but i think it there is a difference from saving and making money.

    It's not a huge difference. You want a lego set and extra money compared to if you paid full price. A reseller wants extra money, and probably a copy of the set for himself too.

    If it is OK for you to make money doing an occupation that you spend on lego, then why can someone else not chose selling lego as their occupation? In fact, someone might find some occupations distasteful at the rates the workers get paid. Why don't they work for free?
  • AnthonyC173AnthonyC173 Member Posts: 101

    ^ So the question is why is making a profit frowned upon? Reselling for profit (and alot of cases losses after everything is factored in) should not cause jealousy or anger in others. Nobody who attempts to resell to make money has unequal access to these products. Nobody reselling is making millions and sucking resources out of the local economy by stashing these funds in an offshore account in the Cayman Islands. I think this is tall poppy syndrome at its worst.

    i don't really care if re-seller makes a profit, i would just like them to be honest about it instead of hiding behind excuses.
    You are right re-seller or not, everyone has the same chance at scoring deals. Re-seller don't really give other people less a chance at obtaining good deals, but rather they shorten the time people has to obtain it. If everyone can only buy one, a good deal might last for 1hr but if people buy more than one that time can be less than 20 mins before they oos.
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    ^

    pvancil27 said:

    prof1515 said:

    No one is entitled to Lego.

    You are 100% right. No one is entitled to Lego. What they should be entitled to is a FAIR SHOT at getting Lego.
    Why? Life is not fair...
    Ahhhh the famous line said to my dad after he lost his job, the line said to me when i was bullied at school. Now it's here... "life isn't fair" a line used by people who are physically or economically more powerful than other.
    I also have a problem with that line. I almost commented on it earlier, but didn't want to interrupt the discussion.

    @LFT is a nice guy, so I don't think he practices that philosophy in real situations. But in general, I feel its a callous view of how one should expect to be treated or allowed to treat others through life when it comes to an important decision or choice. Of course life isn't fair, that's how it started but it doesn't have to always be that way. We aspire for fairness to all. And when its not, we should at least empathize.
    pvancil27Redbullgivesuwind
  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843

    i don't really care if re-seller makes a profit, i would just like them to be honest about it instead of hiding behind excuses.

    Can you give an instance where a reseller (or anybody, really) gave as primary motivation for their work anything other than profit?
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    edited October 2012


    you speak the truth my friend. Resellers should be honest and just admit that their top priority is making money.

    no problem! i resell primarily to make money. about 95% of that profit goes to by my own personal lego collection, since I love lego. reselling is the means to the end - not profit, but to have more lego to built with. reselling allows me to buy more LEGO than I otherwise couldn't.

    in the end, it's my love of LEGO that drives my side hobby business, not profit motivations.

    happy now, does that make you anti-resellers feel better?
    pvancil27RedbullgivesuwindTyoSolojonboy2000Bumblepants
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    ^^ I agree 100%. 100% of the money I make reselling gets plowed back into the hobby. That money gets spread around alot of places like retailers, amazon, bricklink, etc. I am motivated by profit, but that profit is solely to help feed my extremely unhealthy attraction to ABS plastic bricks and figures.
  • AmberylAmberyl Member Posts: 193
    I don't think resellers are motivated solely by money, because frankly, if they were, they would be doing something more profitable with their time and capital than selling Lego.

    Resellers still have a love for the brick, assuming you exclude the folks who are general toy resellers rather than resellers who specialize in Lego. It takes some personal passion to actually be good at the reselling gig as well, I think, since it requires some "feel" for what sets will be good investments. (We've established, I think, that merely grabbing random sets at clearance and holding them isn't likely to be profitable. Brickpicker seems to indicate that average CAGR won't even cover your selling fees, one year after EOL.)

    But I have yet to see any resellers on this forum give "excuses" for why they're in the business. Obviously, people run the gamut from folks who pick up an extra set or two when they like something, to people like LFT who really have a business with employees, so everyone has a different rationale and scale and profit level.

    (Once again, I don't resell, but I am grateful that the existence of resellers has enabled me to purchase NISB Lego that's EOL.)
  • AnthonyC173AnthonyC173 Member Posts: 101
    dougts said:


    you speak the truth my friend. Resellers should be honest and just admit that their top priority is making money.

    no problem! i resell primarily to make money. about 95% of that profit goes to by my own personal lego collection, since I love lego. reselling is the means to the end - not profit, but to have more lego to built with. reselling allows me to buy more LEGO than I otherwise couldn't.

    in the end, it's my love of LEGO that drives my side hobby business, not profit motivations.

    happy now, does that make you anti-resellers feel better?
    forgive me if i sound like an anti-reseller at points. i do not hate re-sellers in fact i buy from them. Ofc there are good people who re-sells and there are the bad ones. Anyone who collects lego know about the outrageous prices so if you re-sell as a way to feed your lego addiction then good for you. But people who only buy lego to re-sell, who see lego as only a source of extra income and don't appreciate the little plastic bricks, those are the people i hate.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    rocao said:

    Well the issue seems to be making money on Lego. It seems that if a person was to clear shelves and give the sets to a charity then people on this board would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves and offer the sets on this board for sale at the clearance price people would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves because they needed pieces for an MOC then that is fine as well. If, and only if, the set is resold for more than the clearance price without being opened do folks get bent out of shape.

    So my questions is are folks upset because money is being made, or are they upset because money is being made from their beloved Lego?

    I'm curious to hear the answer to this from those with anti-reseller sentiment.

    Cant keep away. For me it's a simple equation. On one side the action and potential consequences and the other the outcome.

    So on one side we have buyer purchases multiple sets on discount with my perceived impact of fewer people able to benefit of that offer. On the other side we have what happens to those sets. The balance of that equation is how I determine if it fits what I think is right.

    Yes I value sets going to charity higher than people buying sets for use which in turn is higher than buying them for trade which is higher still than someone making a profit from them.

    It's not a straight forward yes or no, it varies to on the original sale, the availability of the set and at that and similar price.
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    rocao said:

    Well the issue seems to be making money on Lego. It seems that if a person was to clear shelves and give the sets to a charity then people on this board would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves and offer the sets on this board for sale at the clearance price people would be ok with it. If a person was to clear shelves because they needed pieces for an MOC then that is fine as well. If, and only if, the set is resold for more than the clearance price without being opened do folks get bent out of shape.

    So my questions is are folks upset because money is being made, or are they upset because money is being made from their beloved Lego?

    I'm curious to hear the answer to this from those with anti-reseller sentiment.

    If someone bought every set and donated them to a charity where they get back into the community that not I wouldnt see an issue as it cant be called greedy or selfish. If you wanted to argue that they could have left a few for people who did want to buy it then I think thats a fair point too.

    If someone buy every set to use personally and leave nothing for anyone else then yes that can also be considered greedy and selfish as they were thinking about themselves only.
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    dougts said:


    you speak the truth my friend. Resellers should be honest and just admit that their top priority is making money.

    no problem! i resell primarily to make money. about 95% of that profit goes to by my own personal lego collection, since I love lego. reselling is the means to the end - not profit, but to have more lego to built with. reselling allows me to buy more LEGO than I otherwise couldn't.

    in the end, it's my love of LEGO that drives my side hobby business, not profit motivations.

    happy now, does that make you anti-resellers feel better?
    *hugs*
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,813

    But people who only buy lego to re-sell, who see lego as only a source of extra income and don't appreciate the little plastic bricks, those are the people i hate.

    Even then, why do you hate them? Do you hate toy shop owners that sell toys they don't play with for a profit? Do you hate retailers that sell particular brands of food that they don't eat for a profit? Do you hate dentists that work for a profit, rather than a love of other peoples teeth? Do you hate kids that wash cars for a profit, rather than the love of looking at clean cars?
    Redbullgivesuwind
  • AnthonyC173AnthonyC173 Member Posts: 101
    mressin said:

    i don't really care if re-seller makes a profit, i would just like them to be honest about it instead of hiding behind excuses.

    Can you give an instance where a reseller (or anybody, really) gave as primary motivation for their work anything other than profit?
    no i guess i can't. I guess after reading the thread that it was only implied. I mistook people who defend re-sellers and implied that they were giving excuses about re-seller doing something other than making a profit.

    for that i apologize
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    Why? Life is not fair...

    Ahhhh the famous line said to my dad after he lost his job, the line said to me when i was bullied at school. Now it's here... "life isn't fair" a line used by people who are physically or economically more powerful than other.
    :) I was bullied in school, I know exactly how that feels, and it sucks...

    You know what? Complaining, telling the teachers, none of that works. In 9th grade, it was really bad, being pushed into lockers, harassed at lunch, it really, really sucks!

    My basketball coach (I was 6' tall in 9th grade) pulled me aside one day and asked me why I put up with it. I told him I tried to get them to stop, but the more I told on them, the more they bullied me. He said, "Son, you can't run away from a bully and they'll just wait until the teachers leave, you have to turn around and hit them".

    What? I said... I'll get suspended! "Yes, you probably will, but they'll also stop and leave you alone".

    A few days later, they did it again, I turned around and punched the kid right in the nose. He was bigger than me, but you should have seen the shocked look on his face, he was not expecting it. We ended up in a fight, the teachers pulled us apart. I ended up with a 3 day suspention for fighting.

    But you know what? I was never bullied again, for the next 4 years of school, they all left me alone.

    Life is not fair, I was suspended for 3 days for that. Does it matter now? Nope, not a bit. Did I learn something powerful and important about life? Yes, I sure did. Bitching and moaning about "fairness" is a waste of time, if you don't like something, do something about it and deal with it.

    The world does not care if anything is fair or not, it really doesn't.
    Redbullgivesuwindjonboy2000
  • dragonhawkdragonhawk USMember Posts: 633

    ^

    pvancil27 said:

    prof1515 said:

    No one is entitled to Lego.

    You are 100% right. No one is entitled to Lego. What they should be entitled to is a FAIR SHOT at getting Lego.
    Why? Life is not fair...
    Ahhhh the famous line said to my dad after he lost his job, the line said to me when i was bullied at school. Now it's here... "life isn't fair" a line used by people who are physically or economically more powerful than other.
    I also have a problem with that line. I almost commented on it earlier, but didn't want to interrupt the discussion.

    ...
    In MY opinion the problem is that people stop at "Life is not fair". Which is true in it of itself (no matter who says it). What everyone should be saying (and doing) instead is: "Life is not fair, so what am I going to do about it ? . That is the basis for a lot of inventions and success stories.

    To bring it back to the topic in hand. Life is not fair, I cannot affort bigger LEGO sets at RRP. What am I going to do about it ? I would pay attention to Brickset forum to see posts on sales... or I would get smaller LEGOs on sale, resell them and get more money so I can affort the bigger one, etc etc etc
    TyoSolo
  • AnthonyC173AnthonyC173 Member Posts: 101
    CCC said:

    But people who only buy lego to re-sell, who see lego as only a source of extra income and don't appreciate the little plastic bricks, those are the people i hate.

    Even then, why do you hate them? Do you hate toy shop owners that sell toys they don't play with for a profit? Do you hate retailers that sell particular brands of food that they don't eat for a profit? Do you hate dentists that work for a profit, rather than a love of other peoples teeth? Do you hate kids that wash cars for a profit, rather than the love of looking at clean cars?
    No maybe its because im very passionate about lego that i see it here, but not in other situation.
    but yes i don't like a lot of toy store owners, some has passion for toys those people i like.
    Most big companies did something unethical to get to where they are. I try to stay away from them a lot of the time
    As for the dentist, you are right i am sure most of them just do it because it's their job to.
    Kids who wash cars, they have a good reason and most of the time it isn't for self-gain, but rather to support their club or school.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    I also have a problem with that line. I almost commented on it earlier, but didn't want to interrupt the discussion.

    @LFT is a nice guy, so I don't think he practices that philosophy in real situations. But in general, I feel its a callous view of how one should expect to be treated or allowed to treat others through life when it comes to an important decision or choice. Of course life isn't fair, that's how it started but it doesn't have to always be that way. We aspire for fairness to all. And when its not, we should at least empathize.

    I agree that it comes across as very callous when typed the way I typed it. I had run out of patience and was feeling frustrated. For that, I'm sorry.

    As for my feelings of "fairness"... I suspect we each define that word differently. Some would define it as having a fair outcome for all, others would define it as a fair opertounity for all, etc.

    There are people who believe, right or wrong, that everyone should have an equal or fair outcome, everyone should have the same amount of money, stuff, etc.

    There are other people who believe that everyone should have an equal shot at making money, but that the outcome is dependent on effort, skill, etc.

    I am one of the latter. I fully believe in a fair shot to all, but that the outcome is dependant on effort, skill etc.

    What does this mean? It means that if I get up at 5am and go to Walmart and find everything on clearance, good for me, I can fairly buy it all because I was there first. Anyone else could have gotten up and gone and done that too, they just didn't for whatever reason.
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    ^Yes agreed on fairness of opportunity, not equal outcome. Subtle but very different from one another.
    pvancil27
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    Sorry LFT, you can tell me stories till you are blue in the face and try and justify it how ever you want, while the truth is life is not fair, saying life isnt fair should not ever be someones justification for an action. Ever. Maybe I just have this warped sense of civility that is just lost/being lost in the world today.
    jadeirenemkolandian
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,813
    edited October 2012
    ^ So one guy gets up at 5am and works a 16 hour day, and another does nothing. They should both get the same food, housing, etc, as that is fair? To me, that is not fair on the guy that works. If everyone gets the same no matter what, no-one would do anything.
  • SirKevbagsSirKevbags Fairy Land Member Posts: 4,030
    Five pages now including some comments from myself. Is it time for both sides to raise the white flag? Opinions from either side of this vast divide are not going to change.
    jonboy2000
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    I like to think myself a fairly educated person, but you will have to enlighten me as to where in my statement above I mentioned anything about what you brought up....
  • BrickarmorBrickarmor USAMember Posts: 1,257
    New rule: NO HYPOTHETICALS!

    I, who contributed volubly to this exact same topic three months ago, cannot muster the same brio to respond; or more precisely, to argue. But it is this simple: I believe every collector should be a reseller to fund their beloved hobby and make it self-sustaining, and it is the burgeoning practice of reselling as a business that imperils this ideal.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    Well said, pvancil. I haven't seen anyone suggest a redistribution of lego wealth!
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    CCC said:

    ^ So one guy gets up at 5am and works a 16 hour day, and another does nothing. They should both get the same food, housing, etc, as that is fair? To me, that is not fair on the guy that works. If everyone gets the same no matter what, no-one would do anything.

    I don't think that's the same as what pvancil27 was saying. pvancil27 was saying that "Life isn't fair" should not be used as justification to perpetuate unfairness.

    I think what is not agreed upon is whether the reseller actions mentioned are fair or unfair.
    BrickDancermkolandian
  • AmberylAmberyl Member Posts: 193
    There is a difference between "fair" and "ethical".

    There are some reseller practices that most people would consider unethical. One of those is the use of multiple accounts to skirt automatic quantity limits. However, it's likely that very few resellers actually engage in this behavior, especially since there's a possibility that doing so will simply lead to being banned from that particularly e-commerce site; Amazon, for instance, will ban you if their system notices you doing it.

    I agree with fairness of opportunity. If someone wants to sit at their computer and repeatedly hit reload for a sale price, or canvas local stores looking for discounts, they are fundamentally doing work, and they should be entitled to a profit from the hours that they have spent doing work. Similarly, they are risking their money in purchasing and holding inventory, in hopes of a later profit. You have the same opportunity, even if you decide that your time and/or money is better spent doing something else.
    dragonhawkjonboy2000
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    Reading through this thread, I find most of the arguments against reselling are rooted in emotion. mressin's collection of posts highlights this.

    It has been hinted upon, but let me ask more directly: Is the main objection to the act of reselling LEGO based upon a feeling that it commodifies it? In other words, do people disapprove because they think it transforms LEGO, a product to which they attach emotion, into just a widget -- a vehicle simply to make money?
    jonboy2000
  • BanditBandit Member Posts: 890
    edited October 2012
    Arguing that it's not fair for a reseller to clear out a clearance aisle is no different than a reseller arguing that it's not fair when random Walmart/Kmart shoppers find clearance items before the reseller does. After all, they put in all this time and effort! They should be entitled to something! Not these lazy jerks who just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

    Which is of course a stupid argument. You might not like it, it may chap your hide when someone goes in and clears out a clearance aisle, but don't say it wasn't fair. It was totally fair. That person has just as much right to do that as you do, and you have just as much of an opportunity to do it as they do.

    You may not know how to do it, you may not know when to do it, but that doesn't make it not fair. It means the other person put in much more time and effort to do it than you did. Or they were just lucky, like anyone can be.

    No one is entitled to cheap clearance lego. And you just can't say it's not fair that little Timmy missed out on a clearance set because some nasty reseller bought them all up the day before. You can say it sucks, you can say 'poor Timmy', but don't tell me it's not fair. It's perfectly fair. It's a level playing field, everyone has the same chance. The people that put the time and effort into it win. The people that don't either get lucky or lose. How is that not fair?
    jonboy2000
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    pvancil27 said:

    Sorry LFT, you can tell me stories till you are blue in the face and try and justify it how ever you want, while the truth is life is not fair, saying life isnt fair should not ever be someones justification for an action. Ever. Maybe I just have this warped sense of civility that is just lost/being lost in the world today.

    Actually, I think @LFT was encouraging you to punch him in the nose. :^)

    JOKE...IT'S A JOKE! (No AFOLs were harmed in during the writing of this thread).

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