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Going one step deeper... The Brick

PerryMakesPerryMakes Member Posts: 73
edited June 2011 in The Database
I'll assume that this site has focused it's work at the "set" level for very good reasons, but I'm thinking that if I could get set inventories with links to BrickLink to makes the purchase - there would be very little reason to use any other Lego sites other than this. As it is, I find myself bouncing back and forth between this, Peeron, and BrickLink. Has this been discussed before? If so, would someone be so kind to provide a URL?

Cheers ~ Jason
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Comments

  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    Yes it has. And a very good effort to put your suggestion into play was stopped because of grumbling over at BrickLink.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited June 2011
    I've enabled the functionality on your account, you'll see a new tab on the set details pages.

    I can't make this publicly available because of 'grumbling over at BrickLink' as brickmatic says.
  • princedravenprincedraven Member Posts: 3,764
    Sorry Huw, but any chance I could get that ability on my account?
    Thanks in advance, and thanks for all your hard work.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    Done!
  • StuBoyStuBoy Member Posts: 623
    Its a shame u can't enable this function on everyones account! I've seen the previous discussions about the politics over at bricklink and it seems crazy they don't embrace the extra traffic that would be generated by linking to this site.
  • EricEric Member Posts: 376
    Any chance of adding to my account too?
    Maybe make it a 'opt in' scheme rather than entirely public, to keep the bricklink'ers happy.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    Assuming you are 'Eric' on the main site, that's done.
  • EricEric Member Posts: 376
    Sorry, I'm under 'Stacy' on the main site, sorry.
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Administrator Posts: 6,755
    edited June 2011
    I suspect that if the key antagonists within the Bricklink community get wind that ANYBODY has access via Brickset they will be unhappy.....

    That having been said, short of withholding their minifig data, you do need to ask what exactly they can do about it, and indeed whether there'd be the collective will to act anyway. As alluded to by folks on here, there's a real question about who actually owns some of the images and inventories on Bricklink, so there might well be little or no legal grounds for complaint. Also, on the basis of messages on the Bricklink forums, the majority appear in favour of allowing Brickset use of the set inventories anyway. Which would of course make perfect sense, both for their business and the community as a whole.
  • EricEric Member Posts: 376
    I don't see why they wouldn't like it. They aren't links to 'secret' information, I can just look it up myself, but this makes switching between sites much more fluid. Seems a bit childish to me.
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Administrator Posts: 6,755
    ^ The whole thing is ridiculous, seemingly driven by a few vocal traders who are so short-sighted that they fail to see the obvious benefits that such a collaboration would bring to their businesses, let alone the online community as a whole.
  • EricEric Member Posts: 376
    edited June 2011
    ^ Very true. Eh, there loss.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited June 2011
    Eric/Stacy, you should now have the extra tab.

    I think the issue is probably around the use of the images, both from a (c) POV and also bandwidth. As someone else posted here, Troy at BL considers the inventories themselves to be owned by the community, as that was what Dan wanted.
  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    That having been said, short of withholding their minifig data, you do need to ask what exactly they can do about it
    From a legal point of view, not much. In the US and likely across the world hot linking does not violate copyright law. From a technical point of view, there are server side techniques to block hot linking, but it would be a hassle to put into place.
  • bluemoosebluemoose Member Posts: 1,716
    ^^ IIRC, during the initial discussions it was stated by one of the more vocal participants that many of the element images on BL (the LDRAW-derived images IIRC) were generated by the same person & he wouldn't want his images used elsewhere as he had spent a lot of time creating them for BL ... the creator of the images then contributed, saying that he didn't mind at all ... I think it then mostly turned into a discussion about bandwidth & who would pay for all the extra cost associated with that ...

    Do we have any LDRAW experts here who could script something up to generate new parts images for Brickset & to share with the rest of the community under a creative commons or similar license (I'm not sure how the LDRAW parts are licensed, but that would have to be taken into account).
  • davee123davee123 Member Posts: 854
    I think the issue is probably around the use of the images, both from a (c) POV and also bandwidth.
    While that's the stated reason, I don't think it's the REAL reason. If it were the real reason, there's workarounds. Like simply sending the data, but not sending the images, and caching the data that's available to reduce bandwidth. But those didn't even get discussed on BL by those opposed to the feature.

    The real issue (IMHO) is this: (I'm stepping out of character and speaking as a naysayer for a moment)

    "BrickLink admins and community members work hard creating and maintaining that data. Why should BrickLink-- a for-profit website-- simply give away its information to other community websites? BrickLink does all the work and other sites simply leech off the rewards?"

    That's their gut reaction from what I can tell-- but it comes across being rather selfish, so they looked for other excuses, like bandwidth and image copyright, as if they were major issues.

    You want a workaround for bandwidth? Caching. You want a workaround for images? I've got three: LEGO, Peeron, and LDraw. And that's me as a developer having actually approached and solved both problems, I can talk about details if you want, but that's not terribly relevant.

    A real issue/excuse might be exclusivity, but I didn't see that mentioned in their arguments. Essentially, if BrickLink shares its data with BrickSet, that reduces the amount of visitors to BrickLink, who have come to depend on it for reliable inventory data. It gives people another place to go for inventory data OTHER than BrickLink.

    Anyway, I don't mean to suggest that their gut reaction isn't warranted-- it's totally valid, and they're well within their rights. But suggesting that there's an issue with "bandwidth" is silly (unless they've done some detailed analysis and they haven't), and there are workarounds to image copyright that alleviate the problem enormously or eliminate it. I'd prefer it if they went straight to the issue at hand rather than bandy around excuses.

    DaveE
  • Si_UKNZSi_UKNZ Member Posts: 4,179
    edited June 2011
    Anything which puts a better front end on Bricklink info is a great idea, and will only increase use of Bricklink. The 'transaction' might be started outside of BL but it would still have to complete inside BL - API-driven traffic is still traffic, I'm sure that in their heart of hearts BL realise this, and that it would increase traffic. If anything, @Huw, they should be paying you for driving more business to them.
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Administrator Posts: 6,755
    edited June 2011
    "BrickLink admins and community members work hard creating and maintaining that data. Why should BrickLink-- a for-profit website-- simply give away its information to other community websites? BrickLink does all the work and other sites simply leech off the rewards?"
    DaveE
    .....because even aside from the benefit to the wider online community (which given BL's prominent place within that community can only benefit BL in the end) it's the sensible thing to do from a business perspective.

    If I was a BL seller I'd be CLAMOURING for Brickset to use the inventories and images and link through to BL. Why ? Consider this - Brickset has tens of millions of hits a year - it's a major player in the global LEGO online scene. And every time someone looks at an inventory on Brickset and clicks on a particular piece within that inventory, the browser is redirected to BL and the list of sellers who have that piece for sale. Can anyone think of a better way to drive business to these traders than that ? It's even cost-free FFS !

    The frustrating thing from my perspective is that Brickset's request to use the inventories and link though to BL is such an obvious win-win for everybody concerned, and yet a minority of people with frankly illogical objections appears to have scuppered the whole thing, at least for now.

  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited June 2011
    @davee, There is an element of that I am sure but equally a more enlightened view would be 'If BrickLink shares its data with BrickSet, that increases the amount of visitors to BrickLink, who don't know about the site but are wanting to buy parts to complete a set.'

    We had an argument about the relative sizes of BrickLink's and Brickset's audiences and rankings at Google and whether people coming here were aware of BrickLink already or not, but would be if more links were provided. Clearly things that are hard to determine.

    If you enter 'Buy lego' Bricklink is at or near the top. For most other generic terms 'lego sets', 'lego database', 'lego guide', 'lego reviews' etc. Brickset is. In fact thanks to BrickLink's blanket 'no-follow' I'd wager that it doesn't rank in any other long-tailed search at all so unless you do really want to 'buy lego' you won't just stumble upon it.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    If anything, @Huw, they should be paying you for driving more business to them.
    That is, after all, how affiliate marketing works, and very successfully for eBay who I think quoted a figure somewhere around 20% of all their traffic originated from affiliates.

    Unfortunately nobody at BL is in a position to set something like that up, given no-one is in overall command.

  • brickmaticbrickmatic Member Posts: 1,071
    The licensing of LDraw is separate from the licensing of the files that define the elements (DAT files). Therefore, scripting the capture of images of the rendered elements quite likely is governed by the copyright of the DAT files. Thankfully, the licensing information and the author are embedded in each file, so it is easy to check if making derivative works from the LDraw part is allowed.

    Even if not, it still might be alright to do. However, a lawyer would need to evaluate that.

    In any case, hot linking Brick Link is less of an issue than scripting image capture in LDraw from a copyright point of view. From a copyright point of view, hot linking Brick Link is less of an issue than caching its images.
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Administrator Posts: 6,755
    ^^ So serious question now : are these kind of arguments being discussed on the BL forums at all on an ongoing basis ? Some sellers make their entire living via BL, after all, so they're presumably extremely invested in optimising the business. The vast majority of BL sellers I've dealt with seem eminently sensible and nothing like the rabid minority of naysayers who seem to have prevailed to this point. You'd have thought they'd have something to say about this.
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited June 2011
    Only this, after I first mentioned it: http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=487357

    I suspect what's needed is some eloquent Brickset advocates to ask the question again in their forum and see what comes of it this time. Last time my timing was particularly bad as Dan had just passed away although I didn't know it.
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Administrator Posts: 6,755
    A major stumbling block is the thorny topic of leadership; if you want to approach Brickset with a proposal, it's entirely obvious that you need to contact Huw. It's far from clear who you'd approach at BL, however. And let's face it - while the BL community can offer opinons, there are so many different opinions that you'd never feel you had a mandate to do anything via that route. The buck needs to stop with someone at the end of the day to make a final call.
  • dmm32552dmm32552 Member Posts: 47
    So what would I need to do to have this special tab added to MY profile? :)
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Administrator Posts: 6,755
    ^ Convincing Bricklink to let Brickset use their set inventories would be a good start.

    :-)
  • WillhornerWillhorner Member Posts: 36
    Could you please add to my account also. Its difficult to imagine how this wouldn't beneft the bricklink sellers.
  • davee123davee123 Member Posts: 854
    @davee, There is an element of that I am sure but equally a more enlightened view would be 'If BrickLink shares its data with BrickSet, that increases the amount of visitors to BrickLink, who don't know about the site but are wanting to buy parts to complete a set.'
    I don't disagree, I'm just playing devil's advocate-- effectively, if BrickLink values its exclusive possession of the beset online historical set inventories, it shouldn't give it up. If (say) BrickLink's goal was to take BrickSet's position as a community tool with a robust user interface and extensive database with multi-national data, then they shouldn't be helping out a competitor.

    I honestly don't see that as a goal for BrickLink, but I can't say what BL stakeholders value.

    DaveE
  • Si_UKNZSi_UKNZ Member Posts: 4,179
    Unfortunately nobody at BL is in a position to set something like that up, given no-one is in overall command.
    ... and therein lies the root of all their problems - seriously.

    But anyway, from a practical point of view, surely there must be a partnership-type arrangement where a group of people own it jointly. I really don't think forums are the way to broker this kind of deal, I'd suggest finding out who they are and meeting with them. I'd also suggest not having this discussion (i.e. the one on this page) in public :-).

  • collect_thatcollect_that Member Posts: 1,327
    This forum is bringing more and more people together as a bigger community of like minded folk. We are not politicians but we should be working together. If I sold on BL I'd be going nuts to have more links!!! Brickset is run for people who enjoy Lego and we all know what people who enjoy Lego do -

    BUY LOTS OF IT!
  • emilewskiemilewski Member Posts: 482
    edited June 2011
    Huw, can you enable my account as well? Thank you in advance!

    I agree that this should be a win-win for everyone involved. Do they actually have someone in charge to drive and implement such a change on their side?
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    ^ & ^*n, done x 3.
  • CrackseedCrackseed Member Posts: 90
    Huw, the same for me please? Thank you very much in advance - that's an awesome feature :)
  • sidersddsidersdd Member Posts: 2,432
    I also seem to recall there being consternation with having links to eBay/Amazon on the same page with the links to Bricklink. But this is already done on Peeron.
  • davee123davee123 Member Posts: 854
    edited June 2011
    I also seem to recall there being consternation with having links to eBay/Amazon on the same page with the links to Bricklink.
    Yeah, that's another thing they brought up. The page *already* has links to eBay and Amazon, so adding a new link to BrickLink is only better for BrickLink, not worse. However, it IS a negotiating topic. They could (in theory) demand that eBay/Amazon links were removed before allowing the BrickLink data. But since they're there already, adding BL data to BS isn't hurting BL in any way.

    And I assume that's something Huw wouldn't consider doing (removing eBay/Amazon links), unless of course BrickLink suddenly manages to get a comparable affiliate program.

    DaveE
  • collect_thatcollect_that Member Posts: 1,327
    Huw can you enable my account aswell please?

    Cheers!
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    I've done crack's but can't see you in the list collect: what's your brickset username?
  • collect_thatcollect_that Member Posts: 1,327
    ^ Collect-that! Many thanks Huw!
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    Got it, and done!
  • georgebjonesgeorgebjones Member Posts: 224
    Huw, would it be possible to get that awesome tab on my account as well? Many many thanks to it. Same username :)
  • collect_thatcollect_that Member Posts: 1,327
    ^^ Sweet!
  • collect_thatcollect_that Member Posts: 1,327
    ^ Correction, this is freakin' awesome!!
  • georgebjonesgeorgebjones Member Posts: 224
    I think it is all about expectations and presentation. From what I have read of the discussions, there is a lot of misinformation, or misunderstanding. The perception from the ill-informed, vocal minority is that Brickset wants to steal the BL database, use it to make lots of money, steal the customers from the BL stores, and make the BL stores pay higher fees to do so. Clearly their perceptions are incorrect.

    All I could do was facepalm while reading some of those threads. I recall one thread where Huw was asking to link to BL and a BL seller was in a huff because there were not links to BL already, but there were links to Amazon and eBay. He basically said "Why should we let you link to us since you aren't linking to us now?" It made no sense whatsoever.

    I have experienced in many situations when the leaders of the community/organization are silent, the stupid, ignorant minority makes stupid ignorant decisions for the community. That seems to be happening at BL. The inmates are running the asylum it seems.

    Thankfully the leaders of this (Brickset) community are not silent and that encourages the intelligent, informed members of the community to be more vocal, and positive progress is maintained.
  • EnbricEnbric Member Posts: 64
    Huw, if you could add the tab to my account that would be great. I use Brickset often for set reference and not yet for the collection management, so this would be an invaluable tool.

    I'm under the same name. Thanks!
  • dmm32552dmm32552 Member Posts: 47
    Wow, just checked out the parts tab.
    It. Is. Awesome.
    Thanks, huw!
  • HuwHuw Administrator Posts: 7,088
    edited June 2011
    Here's something else cool I have implemented but haven't yet worked into the website UI.

    You will have found the 'view inventory full-screen' links I suspect which results in a page URL like this:

    http://www.brickset.com/detail/inventory/?set=6876-1

    Now, say I had disassembled all the Blacktron 1 sets and I wanted to reconstruct them but the parts were scattered to all four corners of my storage system, I'd want an easy way to gather all the parts I needed from one list, right?

    Try this: http://www.brickset.com/detail/inventory/?set=6876-1,6894-1,6941-1,6954-1,6987-1

    Just add set numbers to the end of the URL, separated by commas. The page introduction needs tweaking a bit but you get the idea...

    ^^ Enbric and Matthew, you're good to go...
  • sidersddsidersdd Member Posts: 2,432
    ^ Very nice.
  • georgebjonesgeorgebjones Member Posts: 224
    ^^That multiple set inventory is pretty awesome. Also, the multiple images per part is very nice. A great way to quickly quantify things. I will be using that a lot!

    Thanks so much, Huw. What do you know, Bricklink is going to be getting a lot more of my money now because of this feature.
  • MinifigsMeMinifigsMe Member Posts: 2,844
    Oh @huw this will be so helpful for me! Can you pls activate it on chocolatecat on the main site. Thanks so much,
  • ThisIsMyCupThisIsMyCup Member Posts: 156
    huw,
    i too would like the part functionality added to my account. name should be ThisIsMyCup.
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