Is it safe to be paid by bank transfer?

Si_UKNZ

I have a bricklink buyer who's purchased and then says they don't have a paypal account and want to pay by bank transfer. Is this safe?

atkinsar

I think so, although personally I would prefer to have done previous business with the buyer before accepting that option. I would probably accept it myself as long as the buyer has a decent and longish feedback on BL, if they are a new member then no, I wouldn't do it.

On the other hand, there was that famous Jeremy Clarkson incident when he published his bank details and someone managed to set-up a charity donation using those details.

From wikipedia...

"In an attempt to prove the press and public furore over the 2007 UK child benefit data scandal was a fuss about nothing, he published his own bank account number and sort code, together with instructions on how to find out his address, in The Sun newspaper, expecting nobody to be able to remove money from his account. He later discovered that someone had been able to set up a monthly direct debit for £500 to Diabetes UK.[46][47]"

caperberry

To answer the reverse of what you are asking, I've asked BL sellers to accept bank transfer many times when they have not included it as an option, and they've always said yes.

I think as atkinsar points out, it's a risk but I'd imagine it's a very small one.

Si_UKNZ

^^/^ Thanks. Hmmmmm, they have zero feedback, not sure its a risk worth taking.

LegoFanTexas

I don't know how banks work in the UK, but in the US, anyone you pay via check has your bank account and bank routing number.

That being said, I would not send these details to someone online who wasn't known to me or didn't have a good reputation.

Businesses that take a lot of bank transfer payments usually have an incoming only bank account setup, so they can freely publish those details because only money can be deposited into it, nothing can be electronically withdrawn (you physically have to go to the bank to take money out of such accounts).

atkinsar

Zero feedback, then I would say no personally.

emilewski

Agreed for zero feedback. He can get a paypal account like everyone else.

Amberyl

Since setting up Paypal to be linked with your bank account is trivial (i.e., you do a bank transfer to Paypal, automatically, whenever you pay someone via Paypal), there doesn't seem to be a reason why a user who can pay via bank transfer can't get a Paypal account...?

LegoFanTexas

Amberyl said:

Since setting up Paypal to be linked with your bank account is trivial (i.e., you do a bank transfer to Paypal, automatically, whenever you pay someone via Paypal), there doesn't seem to be a reason why a user who can pay via bank transfer can't get a Paypal account...?

Agreed, unless Paypal banned him or her, in which case you don't want to sell to them anyway.

samiam391

Bank transfers can be risky at times. I personally have never accepted one, and only operate by PayPal. Depending upon the order size of the BL transaction, I would do/or not do a bank transfer. If it's for a few pieces, I'd try it, and see how it works. If it goes smoothly, than you can use it in the future. If he scams you on just a few dollars worth of pieces, than you know never to try it again. However, since it is a zero feedback buyer, I would definitely not advise a bank transfer. It's risky enough, but when you throw in someone with no feedback, it makes it worse and not worth trying.

Redbullgivesuwind

Think it would be much funnier if someone had set up a direct debit with Greenpeace in Jeremy Clarksons name.

legoprods

When that happens I just throw them a PayPal link. Ask them for their email and do a money request. All they need is a Credit/Debit Card, and it's pretty simple.

Hope it helps!

thelegoguy421

Don't do business with a person unless they have a pay pal or you now them

Octan

^
I would strongly disagree with this, Bricklink is pretty safe. I normally will feel safe paying with a money order, even knowing that there is no agency I can turn to get my money back.

mressin

To be honest, all things being equal, I don't see any particular danger in being paid by bank transfer.

mrtonytj

Trust me, there is no way to "steal" money off someone with just their account number and bsb/sort code/etc... I get asked this all the time. You can actually go into a bank and as long as you have someones name and address you can request their acc #. Acc #'s are just for putting money in! Not for taking it out.. Unless the "criminal" in question goes into a branch, has an ID with your name on it and can sign your signature. There is no way to take money electronically with just the account number.

LegoFanTexas

mrtonytj said:

Trust me, there is no way to "steal" money off someone with just their account number and bsb/sort code/etc... I get asked this all the time. You can actually go into a bank and as long as you have someones name and address you can request their acc #. Acc #'s are just for putting money in! Not for taking it out.. Unless the "criminal" in question goes into a branch, has an ID with your name on it and can sign your signature. There is no way to take money electronically with just the account number.

In the United States, this is not true. That is what an ACH debit is, you only need a name, account number and routing number.

ecmo47

Ive got a possible customer in France asking to do a bank transfer instead of Paypal. Anybody have any experience? Thanks.

Joseph

You might get some insight from this thread: http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/7897/is-it-safe-to-be-paid-by-bank-transfer#latest

margot

^Hmmm, interesting the second to last comment by mrtonytj, wasn't he the person who ripped off a bunch of people here?

doriansdad

Wire transfer is the safest way to be paid besides receiving cash. Just make sure not to mail the item until you see the funds in your account (can take up to 3 business days)....do not just rely on a confirmation number. The buyer has no recourse whatsoever like they do with Paypal. The only con is the banks take out service fees so you will have to make sure your buyer covers all of those. Also make sure you give your correct account information....once the funds are sent it is almost impossible to retrieve them even if they go to a wrong account.

LegoFanTexas

It is worth noting for any Americans here that a wire transfer is not the same thing as an ACH transfer.

ACH (Automated Clearing House) transfers in the US work differently to wire transfers and can be reversed, unlike wire transfers which almost always cannot (they can be, but only for very limited reasons and never for the type people here care about).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Clearing_House

For example, if I have your bank account info (the info on the bottom of a check), I can initiate an ACH withdrawal from your bank account. It is assumed that I have your permission, which you are supposed to provide me and I keep on file.

If you challenge this with your bank (there is fun paperwork to fill out), you can claim fraud and if I don't have something signed by you giving me permission, the bank can reverse the withdrawal and take the funds back out of my account.

In practice, it is a tad more complex than this, but this feature doesn't exist at all with wire transfers, only an account holder can send money with a wire, but the seller can actually pull funds with an ACH transfer.

ecmo47

Thanks for the insight. The buyer in questions has 31 positive feedbacks on BL. I'm going to ask my bank tomorrow for exactly what the process would be and possible risks involved.

ColoradoBricks

if you own an account with an online banking like Capital One 360, (formerly ING Direct), you can create an account, use it for the transaction, transfer your money to your regular account and then delete the account (or keep it with a 0 balance for any other potential wire transfer).

LegoFanTexas

ColoradoBricks said:

if you own an account with an online banking like Capital One 360, (formerly ING Direct), you can create an account, use it for the transaction, transfer your money to your regular account and then delete the account (or keep it with a 0 balance for any other potential wire transfer).

While this is true, removing the money and closing the account does not remove the liability you would have if the bank reverses the funds.

The largest company that keeps track of this in the US is ChexSystems. If you were to do the above and for whatever reason, the funds were to be reversed creating a negative balance, the bank would create a negative balance in the account and expect to get paid.

If you don't pay them, they'll report it to ChexSystems, the major credit reporting companies, and perhaps hand it over to collections.

Just saying, "well, I have it in my physical possession" isn't enough, the liability doesn't go away. You'll also find it nearly impossible to open a new bank account anywhere until you square up with your former account.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChexSystems

Think of it this way, if you stiff Capital One 360 by taking your money and running, why would Bank of America want to do business with you? I know I wouldn't.

You're much better off knowing your rights and responsibilities and accepting the risks for what they are.

ColoradoBricks

Correct, I was more in the set of mind that now account is invalid and can't be used fraudulently vs reverse charges.

LegoFanTexas

^ I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that you'd sell something, someone would pay you via ACH, then after getting their item, claim the ACH was fraud and reverse the charges?

The challenge for you is that burden of proof is on the person receiving the ACH. I personally don't do such transfers for people I don't know, too much risk.

BTW, may people complain that PayPal isn't a bank. It probably should be, but it isn't right now. If it was, you'd have far less seller protection when using it. In this way, PayPal has more flexibility to rule on money transfers with its current status. If converted to a bank, you would indeed have the rights any bank account owner has, but also the risks and rules of a bank account.

ColoradoBricks

No, I mean I do create accounts specially to receive wire transfer (no ACH) and then close them after the transaction, just being paranoid to have my account number 'out there". While the buyer could be legit there is always hacked emails, etc

LegoFanTexas

Ahh, that makes sense.

BTHodgeman

As far as holds/availability are concerned, wire transfers are considered "guaranteed funds." Once the Federal Reserve (or SWIFT for International wires) has processed the wire to your bank, the funds are considered irrevocable by the sender and your bank should make them available for real-time withdrawal. There may be a couple hour processing time at your bank.

There is no such thing as a "reverse wire," so they can't pull the money from your account via wire, but as LFT said above, that person could use the same account information you gave them to send you the wire as a way to create an ACH debit against your account.

Your best protection against that? Call your bank and have them place an ACH Debit Block on your account. That won't prevent ACH Credits (i.e. direct deposits, transfers from PayPal, etc.), but it will prevent money from being drawn from your account.

Thanos75

I bought some original Walking Dead art from France last year. It wasnt cheap and I was kind of scared to send that much money out of country. The gallery i bought it from wanted a bank transfer. It was actually pretty easy and everything worked out fine. The bank told me everything was covered incase I didnt receive my art.

BTHodgeman

Banks may offer insurance. That is sometimes included in the fee the bank charges to send the wire.

Without insurance, the sender of the wire has little recourse. There is a limited window of opportunity to "recall" a wire, and by the time you realized you weren't getting your art, or LEGO or whatever it may be, that window is long closed.

ecmo47

^^ I checked with my Credit Union today and they said they have fraud protection for unauthorized transactions. To receive funds, I need to provide the same info that is on the bottom of any written check. If the deal goes down, I'll post my experience.

Norlego

The main issue with bank transfers across countries is fees and exchange rates. (same with paypal.) so buyer must transfer money in say £s and pay the fees in both countries.
These fees can be a lot for small sums. Why not get the guy to send money as a gift via paypal?

ecmo47

No order yet to test out this option so nothing new to report. I had not considered fees. My CU didnt mention any when I talked to them. Not sure why the prospective buyer didnt want to do Paypal. Since he was from France, I can only guess that he normally uses IBAN for transactions.

Norlego

Bank transfers is very common in other countries, not so common in the uk. It might not cost him anything to do a bank transfer. You can get such bank accounts.

Norlego

Bank transfers is very common in other countries, not so common in the uk. It might not cost him anything to do a bank transfer. You can get such bank accounts.

masterbuilder1

Ive not had a problem with bank transfers from UK to UK nor Europe to UK. Fees from outside Europe to UK are prohibitive. Can take up to 4 working days to clear to your account.

Hope it works out for you