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The Community Perspective on Reselling

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Comments

  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550
    CCC said:

    I'm sure most people do want their collection to be worth something. But if you know and hence actively thought about the price you would sell each item for, to me, it is more commodity than collection.

    If they left them sealed in mint-condition boxes they ARE worth something. ;-D
    wagnerml2
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    Has anyone been harmed by a reseller in any way? I've never missed out on a set because of a reseller, at least not to my knowledge.
    greenwithenvy
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013
    Pitfall69 said:

    I don't think there is any difference between one that resells Lego to fund their hobby or one that resells Lego to make a living or make some extra money. In the sense of the word, they are both resellers regardless whether they are buying and selling 1000's of sets a year or 20.

    For me, and I suspect many other people, what is done with the profit isn't the general concern. The general concern is with particular behaviors of buying and selling and/or how it is communicated here.

    Although the type of reseller you are -- hobbyist or professional -- doesn't determine where you fall on the spectrum of opinion in and of itself, the latter group necessarily must deal in high volume and, as a result, their activities have a greater impact.

    cheshirecatLostInTranslation
  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430

    Has anyone been harmed by a reseller in any way? I've never missed out on a set because of a reseller, at least not to my knowledge.

    Has anyone ever been harmed by a day trader or owned a house in the US? No, they did not directly come up and kick you in the balls, but the pain is felt in my 401k and home value.
  • Cam_n_StuCam_n_Stu UKMember Posts: 368
    edited August 2013
    Wow, that is an emotive comparison! However 'day traders' are not your problem, they don't move major markets like home-loan debt or stocks, the major financial institutions and pensions funds do that and in the UK recently the government schemes, but that is another story.

    It is a similar story with LEGO resellers. Even LFT and his peers have minimal if indeed any real impact on stock levels or availability of in production sets. On the other hand if it wasn't for LFT, his peers and smaller scale resellers there would be a lot less OOP stock available on the secondary market.

    I can't say I've ever been harmed by a resellers actions, but I have certainly benefited when I've bought MISB OOP sets.
  • BanditBandit Member Posts: 889

    wagnerml2 said:

    I'm not trying to be snarky, but I actually did socialize with the scalper. A guy and his girlfriend each bought their allotment of 4 tickets each to the concert. They kept a pair for themselves and sold the rest on CL. I don't know what they charged everyone else, but I paid twice face value. I actually sat next to them and they were quite pleasant. They also seemed to really enjoy the concert, as did my wife, and because my wife did, so did I ;).

    They did exactly what people here do when they buy two copies, one to keep and one to sell, to help fund their habit.

    That couple got to go for free because they were there when the tickets were sold and invested the money up front to buy the extra tickets.

    Glad to hear they were nice. :)
    I am as big a baseball fan as there is, and when the Rockies went to the World Series back in 2007, I was lucky enough to get the chance to buy tickets to all the games. You could buy up to 4 tickets a game and you would be crazy to not buy the max of 4, whether you planned to scalp the other 2 or just give them to friends at face value. My plan was to pay for the expensive seats I'd be using by selling the 2 I wouldn't.

    I don't typically do this, but the handful of times I have, it's when the tickets cost way more than I would normally pay for tickets, and I know that I'd be able to sell the extras to help defray those costs.

    For Game 4, I got seats directly behind home plate, 20 rows back, for $250 each. I sold my 2 extra on eBay for a ridiculous $1300 a piece. I actually felt kind of bad. Then I go to the game, and these 2 Red Sox fans come and sit in my seats. I didn't feel bad anymore. ;)
    wagnerml2dougtsPitfall69LegoManiaccFollowsCloselyBumblepantsjasorpharmjod
  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430
    Ok, you win. Thank god for resellers. They serve a purpose and provide a service. They also are wholeheartedly not responsible for any of the recent changes in TLGs approach to the consumer.

    I'm off to set up my next Ponzi scheme, because as you know, if I don't do it, someone else will.

    Shoot, forgot to post the picture of the 15 #41999 sets I got my grandmother's cousin's half-brother and his step family to buy for me so I could get around the recently imposed purchase restrictions. But hey, I love lego!!!

    Ps. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376

    Has anyone been harmed by a reseller in any way? I've never missed out on a set because of a reseller, at least not to my knowledge.

    Has anyone ever been harmed by a day trader or owned a house in the US? No, they did not directly come up and kick you in the balls, but the pain is felt in my 401k and home value.
    Please elaborate as it seems that comparison really doesn't work. Day traders had nothing to do with the collapse of anything. It was the buying and selling of bogus mortgages by huge mortgage houses, insurance firms and brokerage houses that led to the collapse. Really, the problem stemmed from people being given mortgages on property that wasn't worth the amount being lent and/or couldn't pay it back and then those mortgages, which had no value, got traded and sold. Regardless, it has no reasonable comparison to reselling Lego.

    LegoFanTexasdougtsTheLoneTensor
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    edited August 2013

    Has anyone been harmed by a reseller in any way? I've never missed out on a set because of a reseller, at least not to my knowledge.

    Has anyone ever been harmed by a day trader or owned a house in the US? No, they did not directly come up and kick you in the balls, but the pain is felt in my 401k and home value.
    I don't see how thats comparable to buying Lego for the purpose of selling them once the set EOL's.
  • pillpodpillpod Member Posts: 273
    Phonebooth, you're very bitter.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    I thought it was going well there for a second and then...
    FollowsClosely
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    @rocao I agree. I don't like certain behaviors I have seen.
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550

    Has anyone ever been harmed by a day trader or owned a house in the US? No, they did not directly come up and kick you in the balls, but the pain is felt in my 401k and home value.

    And resellers meant that the value of your Lego went down because they asked more for the same thing? Your fondness for a set was harmed by someone selling a discontinued set?

    There's no logic to that comparison.
  • nkx1nkx1 Member Posts: 719
    ^Maybe he's upset that the value of his used sets are less because of resellers? Just guessing here. But if you sell a used set, are you still a reseller? Hmmm...
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550
    edited August 2013
    The value of his used sets isn't less because of resellers and the value of the new or sealed sets isn't more because of resellers. The value of discontinued sets is more because of limited availability and the reason that sealed discontinued sets is higher is because of the increased scarcity.
  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430
    I'm done with this thread. I'm not bitter, I just have a very different opinion on how some resellers handle their "business" and the way it impacts the community as a whole - at the extreme end it represents a lack of social responsibility.

    I'm frustrated in the course of a brand that I follow extremely loyally and the apparent lack of responsibility some take in contributing to those changes.

    I don't like people who abuse the system, take advantage of loopholes, and then have the audacity to brag about it.

    Congrats on your business model,
    But when the lego bubble pops and (some) resellers abandon Lego for the next quick flip, it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. There's a reason that some are no longer selling "widget x" - its no longer profitable.

    There are some extremely genuine people on this board and its a shame that LUGs and the average consumer are being impacted by the decisions of a few. You're entitled to your profit margins but at least man up and admit that certain reselling behaviors have significantly impacted the community for both better and worse. It's not all sunshine and rainbows and access to discontinued sets.

  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    @Phonebooth - with all due respect, you do sound bitter. I ask this in all sincerity, how are LUGs and the average consumer being impacted in such a major way? I really don't see it. The policy changes from [email protected] don't affect the average consumer in the least. TLG is still working with LUGs. I honestly don't get the hostility (and it does come through as hostility).

    If/when the bubble pops, I would think (based on your comments) that you would be happy. The value of everything would go down, making it cheaper for you, and the resellers would move on to the next collectable.

    I am not trying to be antagonistic, just truly trying to understand your perspective. From the quips I've read of yours, it just seems that you are just out there on this issue. Some elaboration on some of the more sweeping generalizations might be helpful to the rest of us to understand your point of view.
    TheLoneTensorFollowsCloselygreenwithenvy
  • BoiseStateBoiseState Member Posts: 804
    Without resellers, there is no possible way to get unopened discontinued sets.. You might get some used ones here and there maybe.

    I've been collecting every Harry Potter minifig made.. Without resellers I wouldn't be able to do this.
    greenwithenvychromedigi
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550

    I'm done with this thread. I'm not bitter, I just have a very different opinion on how some resellers handle their "business" and the way it impacts the community as a whole - at the extreme end it represents a lack of social responsibility.

    Social responsibility? Again, why must people inflate things to absurd extremes? They're little plastic toys; not necessities.

    I'm frustrated in the course of a brand that I follow extremely loyally and the apparent lack of responsibility some take in contributing to those changes.

    That's just it though. You have no evidence that these changes are the result of the people you're scapegoating and don't appear to be willing to consider that the "brand that [you] follow extremely loyally" is really just another business interested in its bottom line, not being your friend and mommy.

    I don't like people who abuse the system, take advantage of loopholes, and then have the audacity to brag about it.

    Neither do I but I confine my disgust for those who do so to actually deprive the needy of the necessities of life or to create actual hardship for others' attempts to fulfill the necessities of life. Little plastic bricks, no matter how much I like them, are not necessities of life.

    Congrats on your business model,

    But when the lego bubble pops and (some) resellers abandon Lego for the next quick flip, it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. There's a reason that some are no longer selling "widget x" - its no longer profitable.

    That sure sounds bitter. It also sounds irrational. Why would you have "a really bad taste in [your] mouth" when the collapse of the "lego bubble" would cause those you despise to go away?

    There are some extremely genuine people on this board and its a shame that LUGs and the average consumer are being impacted by the decisions of a few.

    Again with the exagerrated claims of hardship! No 365-day discount? Boo hoo. It's not that big of a deal. If you're really as loyal to Lego as you claim, why aren't you buying the product at full MSRP instead of trying to squeeze them for profits? Isn't such miserly purchasing just as likely to harm their bottom line and contribute to the collapse of the "lego bubble" you mentioned?

    Additionally, why do you assume that it's only resellers who engage in the activities you take issue with? What about people who want more of a limited release set than the limit but have no intention of selling. They just happen to want more than one of the set, be it for particular parts or minifigures or some MOC they're working on. Why isn't your anger directed at them as well instead of a target of a narrow, likely-preexisting bias?

    You're entitled to your profit margins but at least man up and admit that certain reselling behaviors have significantly impacted the community for both better and worse. It's not all sunshine and rainbows and access to discontinued sets.

    Melodrama and hysterics aside here, there's no real proof that your scapegoat of choice, resellers, or "certain reselling behaviors" are the cause of the effect that has you so upset.
    greenwithenvy
  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430
    @prof1515, @boisestate, @wagnerml2 - You're all working off this assumption that I am most concerned about my inability to get lego at discount. Sitting at my desk RIGHT now, I am looking at more than 5 sets that I happily paid RRP for - R2d2, VW camper, IS, SSD, Delorean to name a few. I have a 4'x5' mosaic on the wall that was built primarily through PAB and online parts at retail prices. I actually consider myself very lucky to be able to afford to 'splurge' on Lego whenever my heart desires, and with a Lego store 15 minutes away, that's quite a lot.

    I don't care about set availability. I've said before I had my chance at a #41999 and I passed. I'm not bitter about missing an easy hundred quid and to be honest, that's a drop in the bucket. I'm not even upset for little Timmy - if he didn't have the cash and the access, so be it.

    It's the reselling attitudes and behaviors that now dominate this forum that get on my nerves. The incessant speculation on availability, EOL, investment-opportunities that permeate through the forum. The bragging about avoiding purchase requirements, posting pictures of 'hauls', and the interjected jokes and chatter about FB & DS. Again, I don't go into the Predictions thread, and I generally stay out of the buying/selling forum for this EXACT reason.

    It was fine in the beginning as it was only a handful of members, but now it just seems overwhelming in that it takes away my enjoyment of this site and my interactions with those who frequent here. If that's selfish, so be it.
    cheshirecatgivmellisjasor
  • jdylakjdylak Member Posts: 281

    Without resellers, there is no possible way to get unopened discontinued sets.. You might get some used ones here and there maybe.

    I've been collecting every Harry Potter minifig made.. Without resellers I wouldn't be able to do this.

    I'm confused by this comment. Without resellers selling unopened discontinued sets you would not be able to collect all the Harry Potter figures? Does that mean you only buy new in box Harry Potter sets to open them for the figures? How is a reseller helping you with a minifigure collection?

  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,331
    Unless that post was since edited to remove something bad can I suggest we stop with the pointless abuse flags. I know they are largely meaningless but it just sours the debate.

    The point is a reasonable rebuttal of the 'has anyone been hurt by a reseller'. It's a stupid question anyway as anyone who had to buy a minecraft set for 4x rrp was clearly directly hurt and before anyone says they didnt have to buy one, it was Christmas, it was a kids toy, they did.

    I know minecraft is an extreme case, but I think it's the most pertinent because of that. There are those of us, and im clearly one, that think just because you can do something to make a quick profit doesnt mean you should - that there is a social dimension to what we do. Inevitably when someone makes a moral judgement call like that and someone else falls below it you look down on them, how much so depends on their motives, scale, means etc. And I'll admit I do, those that prey on the desperate at Christmas I see as classless bottom feeders, even more so when they are clearly clever enough to have a worthwhile existence that doesnt just screw over other people. I dont see all reselling like that, to me that behaviour is a million miles from investing in sets to appreciate over months and years, and completely unrelated to parting out sets.

    With the example above about the concert tickets I wonder if this is also a country specific thing. Theres no way I can imagine a ticket scalper doubling face value and sitting next to their buyer in the UK. Perhaps that would depend on the concert but often I think it would end in violence if they did. Similarly as said before if the same ticket scalper joined a band's fan forum and talked about how many concert tickets they bought and howmuch they thought they could make selling them they wouldn't be encouraged to stick around and would likely receive threats if they did. I wonder if maybe it's just totally different in the US.

    Was I directly hurt by minecraft reselling? No. Did I see people hurt? Yes, I spoke to people desperate that they couldn't get one and took care of them providing sets at cost. Have I been indirectly hurt? Perhaps, I know from speaking to store staff they were disappointed that on the VIP morning their VIP guests were taking five minecrafts, I know that was fed back. I know that we've had recent rule changes that do impact me, even if just a little, that are rumoured to be because of resellers.
    SirKevbagsLostInTranslationCCCcaperberrymargotjasoraimlesspursuitsCam_n_Stuy2josh
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550

    @prof1515, @boisestate, @wagnerml2 - You're all working off this assumption that I am most concerned about my inability to get lego at discount.

    I'm working under no such assumption. I'm merely stating that you're getting worked up over something which isn't really that significant and which you seem to be attributing to resellers when there isn't enough/any verified data to suggest such a connection.

    I'm not even upset for little Timmy - if he didn't have the cash and the access, so be it.

    Cool. Little Timmy's an ass anyway. :-D

    It's the reselling attitudes and behaviors that now dominate this forum that get on my nerves. The incessant speculation on availability, EOL, investment-opportunities that permeate through the forum. The bragging about avoiding purchase requirements, posting pictures of 'hauls', and the interjected jokes and chatter about FB & DS. Again, I don't go into the Predictions thread, and I generally stay out of the buying/selling forum for this EXACT reason.

    Same here. I don't feel the need nor that it's my place to judge them so I just ignore it. No harm, no foul.

    It was fine in the beginning as it was only a handful of members, but now it just seems overwhelming in that it takes away my enjoyment of this site and my interactions with those who frequent here. If that's selfish, so be it.

    I wouldn't call it selfish but I do think that you're working yourself up over nothing. Just ignore it and as for it bleeding into other threads, that was discussed and hopefully those who do it will refrain from future incidents. :-)


    Yellowcastlejasor
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,481
    edited August 2013
    Pitfall69 said:

    I don't think there is any difference between one that resells Lego to fund their hobby or one that resells Lego to make a living or make some extra money. In the sense of the word, they are both resellers regardless whether they are buying and selling 1000's of sets a year or 20.

    There is a difference in attitude though, which may filter through to their selling. A buy-to-fund-hobby seller will often buy sets that they like, knowing they always have the bricks if they cannot make the profit, and may also want to help out a fellow AFOL by trading a now expensive set with them, for one they missed. Whereas the professional reseller with no interest in lego will not trade, and will probably be more aggressive towards getting the "right" price.

    Without resellers, there is no possible way to get unopened discontinued sets.. You might get some used ones here and there maybe.

    It depends how you define reseller. There are MISB collectors that buy mroe than one, later deciding to cut down their collection. If they didn't buy with the intention of reselling, then are they a reseller?

    There are also kids that have been given a present that never wanted it. It is surprising how many discontinued sets are sold just after Xmas like that. Quite a number of people seem to buy discontinued lego in Jan / Feb, store it until Xmas, gift it to their grandkids or whatever, and then it appears on ebay in January. So a set discontinuing in autumn 2013, sold cheap in Jan 2014, gifted Xmas 2014, might appear on ebay 2015. So don't be surprised to see MISB monster fighters in 2015.
    margotjasorCam_n_Stu
  • augenaugen Worcester, UKMember Posts: 317
    edited August 2013

    Similarly as said before if the same ticket scalper joined a band's fan forum and talked about how many concert tickets they bought and how much they thought they could make selling them they wouldn't be encouraged to stick around and would likely receive threats if they did. I wonder if maybe it's just totally different in the US.

    This is the part that really surprises me. On one hand, you have the threads where members highlight discounts for the benefit of other members, but on the other hand, resellers who try to sweep up all the discounted sets to the detriment of others are still welcome. I believe that resellers provide a useful service, but we have all lost out to some degree as a result of their behaviour. If certain individuals are just here to profit from us, why on earth would we choose to welcome them and perhaps more poignantly, why should we have to hear about their good fortune.

    As much as I like this forum, I would like it even more if resellers were restricted in their practices on general threads and had their own threads which I could hopefully hide. Perhaps then, a thread like this one would not even exist, let alone be one of the most popular.
    pvancil27BOBJACK_JACKBOB
  • vitreolumvitreolum RomaniaMember Posts: 1,406
    augen said:

    but we have all lost out to some degree as a result of their behaviour.

    Those that wanted lego to do something about this should stop complaining. They did, you got what you wanted. It's not so fun when it affects everyone, isn't it? :)

    "I would like it even more if resellers were restricted in their practices on general threads and had their own threads which I could hopefully hide. "

    WIth bitter comments like that constantly appearing you're surprised this thread is so popular... Close your eyes and hope it goes away, perhaps it will all go away.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    vitreolum said:

    Those that wanted lego to do something about this should stop complaining. They did, you got what you wanted. It's not so fun when it affects everyone, isn't it? :)

    As the saying goes... be very careful what you wish for, you might well get it. :)
    Cam_n_Stugreenwithenvy
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    It feels nice not being the only voice on my side of the debate, but I am kind of sad lil jimmy has been morphed into little timmy.

    As for limit, as I said, I hate them, but because they punish more innocent people then those they are meant to restrict. AS I said with Locks, they only keep honest people out. The dad who wants to buy three 41999's for his three sons will get shut out of that third one because he respects limits, but Reseller Rob™ will get all he wants because he never gave a crap about limits to start with.

    Thats why I don't buy the "its all legos fault"/dont hate the player crap. IF it wasnt for people being selifish, there would be no need for limits.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    Actually, I'm all for the limits, if they were enforced evenly.

    I've said before, Amazon handles this much better than [email protected] Amazon gives you a per account limit and resets once a week. I'm perfectly happy with this limit and I comply with it, I value my relationship with Amazon and wish to continue it, so I follow their rules.

    [email protected] does a lousy job of this in all respects. :(
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    edited August 2013
    "Well, I'm sorry, Timmy, but I don't dip that way. I'll dip the way I wanna dip."

    @pvancil27 The real problem is that this behavior is everywhere, not just with Lego.
    timinchicago
  • jasorjasor United StatesMember Posts: 839
    Labeled: "Not a reseller." I havent resold any Lego set recently. I get the discontent with some AFOLs that have ire for them, perceptionally anyway. They cannot be lumped together into one group, however. The definition keeps shifting on what it means to be that dispicable reseller.

    Not everyone bought 100 copies of Minecraft. Not everyone buys 1 copy to build, 1 copy to keep MISB, and 1 to sell for their hobby...and not everyone parts out a set, sells the minifigs for the bricks/vice versa.

    You can be AFOL, and still fund your hobby or make a living off of it. The more sets stocked away, the lower the aftermarket price. I'm all for that.

    I read the MOC forums along with the Predictions threads. At the end of the day, I guess I don't see what's so divisive. That's the part that really gets me, as this is a community. Money and bricks are interwoven, and there is no separation. You're either chasing the deal, jumping on your own opportunity, or sharing in the moment....that's why we're all here (I think).

    If someone breaks the rules, posts a brag haul, or monetizes a set discussion...politely call them out. I have to say....I saw someone comment on what a great build X set was in the Predictions thread, and it was immediately squashed. Of course, it was kinda in jest with all this divisiveness...but the active people on this forum aren't trolls. If you've followed discussions with most of those known resellers, you can tell they have love for the brick.

    SMH x1000 (going to chiropractor directly after for neck adjustment).
    TheLoneTensorcaperberry
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    "It's like putting your whole mouth right in the bowl!"
    Pitfall69
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550
    pvancil27 said:

    As for limit, as I said, I hate them, but because they punish more innocent people then those they are meant to restrict. AS I said with Locks, they only keep honest people out. The dad who wants to buy three 41999's for his three sons will get shut out of that third one because he respects limits, but Reseller Rob™ will get all he wants because he never gave a crap about limits to start with.

    Here's the problem though. Why do you assume that the dad adheres to the limit and the reseller doesn't?
    pvancil27 said:

    Thats why I don't buy the "its all legos fault"/dont hate the player crap. IF it wasnt for people being selifish, there would be no need for limits.

    Bullsh*t. Limits are there because Lego hasn't produced enough to meet demand. If they made more, limits become unnecessary. That's why even non-exclusives are sometimes given limits when they first debut.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,937
    edited August 2013
    I am seeing lots of vitriol towards things - towards individuals, that are accomplishing nothing more than alienating one belief and frothing up the other. I mean this for both viewpoints.

    The fact of the matter is this, reselling is part of the Lego ecosystem and is not going away anytime soon. I don't mean that in a "suck it up or ship out" manner, not at all. I write it in the hopes that it might be possible to channel those energies into trying to understand and accept, or at the very least, quiet agreement to disagree. Something, anything is better than just simply cycling hate.
    YellowcastleCam_n_Stu
  • vitreolumvitreolum RomaniaMember Posts: 1,406


    So by extension, those who didn't want TLG to do something about this, but did want certain resellers to change behaviour as their actions affect everyone, are OK to keep complaining?

    Depends what you mean by complaint... if it's a good argument that can lead to an interesting debate, then by all means, state it. If by complaint you mean comments like the "reseller concentration camps" augen suggested, that's just off.

    I don't know where you see an attempt of absolution in my mocking comment, nor do I see why I would do that.

    Also pointing directly at resellers for TLG policy changes is annoying. There can be several other reasons for them making this decision.

    And lastly, I'm probably the last one here to care about their policy. I don't buy anything from [email protected] for a simple reason: they don't ship to me! So their limits and discounts are absolutely irrelevant to me.
  • caperberrycaperberry LondonMember Posts: 2,226
    vitreolum said:


    So by extension, those who didn't want TLG to do something about this, but did want certain resellers to change behaviour as their actions affect everyone, are OK to keep complaining?

    Also pointing directly at resellers for TLG policy changes is annoying. There can be several other reasons for them making this decision.
    I didn't - I pointed at an example where TLG made a policy change and the first reason stated in the first paragraph of the email listed reselling as an issue - then went on to point out others.

    If that annoys you, so be it. My point is resellers can't write themselves out of the equation, nor can anyone wholly blame resellers. My wider point is that we are directing too much criticism at the wrong people.
    SirKevbagsvitreolum
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013
    augen said:

    This is the part that really surprises me. On one hand, you have the threads where members highlight discounts for the benefit of other members, but on the other hand, resellers who try to sweep up all the discounted sets to the detriment of others are still welcome. I believe that resellers provide a useful service, but we have all lost out to some degree as a result of their behaviour. If certain individuals are just here to profit from us, why on earth would we choose to welcome them and perhaps more poignantly, why should we have to hear about their good fortune.

    We had a noticeable surge in user registrations when the decision was made to make "Shopping" and "Buying and Selling Topics" only visible to members. That would indicate there were lurkers who leeched information without any intention to contribute.

    If there was an easy way to generate a list of members with no posts who spent a disproportionate amount of time in those categories, they might not be long for this forum.
    SirKevbagspharmjod
  • wagnerml2wagnerml2 Belleville, IllinoisMember Posts: 1,376
    @phonebooth - I respect that position. I will admit that I really don't understand the bristling you feel at some of the comments, but I respect your feelings to be upset. Do you understand that there is a large percentage of the both the reselling and non-reselling community that just don't see it as a big deal? That is where the disconnect occurs, I think.

    @pvancil27 - I must heartily disagree. The reseller can only exist where a demand remains in the market after the primary stock has been depleted. Unlike concert tickets, that have a finite number of seats, Lego could produce as many #41999's or Minecraft as they want. They don't, because the feeding frenzy caused by the shortage is exactly what they are after. While they may have underestimated Minecraft, the rising resale and post EOL costs of their product continues to drive the market for their current releases. Market share is growing because there are more buyers for the product. That is partially attributable to the higher aftermarket values.

    I don't blame a reseller for taking advantage of an opportunity to make money. Whether he/she is an AFOL or just a transient who is buying Lego because it is the product du juor, the aftermarket is not his fault. To the extent it is a bad thing, it's Lego's fault. That is a point that I believe is indisputable.

    I have no issues with anyone's feelings. I found the debate somewhat helpful, however, more than likely, at some point a truce is going to need to be declared and retire the discussion.
    vitreolumCam_n_Stuchromedigi
  • vitreolumvitreolum RomaniaMember Posts: 1,406
    edited August 2013

    I didn't - I pointed at an example where TLG made a policy change and the first reason stated in the first paragraph of the email listed reselling as an issue - then went on to point out others.

    My comment was not directed at you, I was simply generalizing from the comments I've seen thrown around. I have no clue why they did that, nor do I say it's not because of resellers, but I see no reason either to instantly jump on resellers just because there is another reason to do so (again, generalizing).

    I'm not hoping my comments will change someone's perceptions, I only think we need to stop throwing insulting remarks around just because we don't agree with something. Respect should play a big role in a community, even if we don't agree with everything said, we can still be civil about it.

    Leaving reselling alone for a moment, how would a LAF fan feel if I were to jump in a dedicate thread and say it's s*it? I haven't contributed with anything, only annoyed someone. It's pretty much the same thing here with acid comments.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013
    wagnerml2 said:

    @pvancil27 - I must heartily disagree. The reseller can only exist where a demand remains in the market after the primary stock has been depleted. Unlike concert tickets, that have a finite number of seats, Lego could produce as many #41999's or Minecraft as they want. They don't, because the feeding frenzy caused by the shortage is exactly what they are after.

    In cases such as Comic-Con exclusives, where, when faced with growing popularity year over year, they chose to make fewer giveaways, your statement of TLG being at fault is certainly true. This is less the case with Minecraft and #41999. Because these were results of experimental and exploratory set design and production processes, they did not enjoy the benefit of the typical production run. Sure, one might say that is still TLG's fault, but I think most people would still prefer they engage in these efforts rather than not at all, and the evidence of shortages caused by resellers is clear. After Minecraft first sold out, TLG quickly released a statement assuring the public that more would be produced, and despite it consistently being one of the top sellers, it has remained in stock, so it seems the feeding frenzy wasn't "exactly what they are after".

    #41999 is interesting because I'm still not convinced that, absent resellers, the real demand is much greater than 20,000. I provided a case study on point 3 of this post.

    It's telling that, while some were claiming "the sky is the limit" for the aftermarket value of the set, that it was the standout winner of 2013, and that they could see it tripling in one year, no one took me up on my bet that the resale value would not surpass $600 in one year's time. Instead, some of the people that have said that TLG grossly under-produced this set are now dumping it at ~$450. Though that gain is nothing to scoff at, selling now runs counter to those stated beliefs and suggests that they too think the demand has a component of artificiality.
  • nkx1nkx1 Member Posts: 719
    edited August 2013
    ^I certainly wouldn't consider selling at $450 "dumping". On many other sets, a 125% ROI (excluding taxes and fees) would be fantastic, much less to be able to buy/sell immediately for that profit. I think I get your rationale, though, and for the most part, I think I agree. As I stated in a different thread, sold prices are now actually closer to $420, and sometimes less.

    By "artificiality", do you simply mean that there is an artificial component of demand generated by the buzz surrounding the set, and people don't truly like the set? Demand is demand, though, no? Does it matter how it materializes? Surely no rational reseller/investor would buy at $450 and hope to sell at $600+ any time soon. Therefore, I'm inclined to think many people buying this set at $450 are buying for themselves.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    @rocao Yeah, you need to do your thing where you post comments made by people in the beginning of the #41999 frenzy and comments that have been made recently ;)
    rocaonkx1
  • FenrisAkashiFenrisAkashi Member Posts: 242
    edited August 2013
    rocao said:

    If there was an easy way to generate a list of members with no posts who spent a disproportionate amount of time in those categories, they might not be long for this forum.

    Seriously? If this is a statement backed up by the other admins and Huw this drastically changes my perception of the site and its caretakers.
    nkx1
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    edited August 2013

    Actually, I'm all for the limits, if they were enforced evenly.

    I've said before, Amazon handles this much better than [email protected] Amazon gives you a per account limit and resets once a week. I'm perfectly happy with this limit and I comply with it, I value my relationship with Amazon and wish to continue it, so I follow their rules.

    [email protected] does a lousy job of this in all respects. :(

    Again, my dislike of limits is because of why they are needed in the first place. If everyone only took what they needed for their personal use, there would be no reason for limits. Of course that gets into the concept of someone creating an army of 100 41999's and if they should be allowed. In reality I get limits, but I also think they should be discretionary. As an example, I'd have no problem if a manager said you a known re-seller can only buy one of a set, yet allows the dad to buy three because he wants one for each of his three sons because that dad is in there all the time buying 3 of each item for the kids.

    But the reality is I know why there are limits and they are there to try and protect general consumers. I just know those who want to cheat the system will cheat the system.
    prof1515 said:

    pvancil27 said:

    As for limit, as I said, I hate them, but because they punish more innocent people then those they are meant to restrict. AS I said with Locks, they only keep honest people out. The dad who wants to buy three 41999's for his three sons will get shut out of that third one because he respects limits, but Reseller Rob™ will get all he wants because he never gave a crap about limits to start with.

    Here's the problem though. Why do you assume that the dad adheres to the limit and the reseller doesn't?
    Because in general, the dad doesn't have to engage in that activity as buyign three of most sets is not an issue. Re-sellers who buy en mass know how to skirt limits and have shown they will. There are of course some dads that will break the limit, and there are some re-sellers who respect limits.

    prof1515 said:

    pvancil27 said:

    Thats why I don't buy the "its all legos fault"/dont hate the player crap. IF it wasnt for people being selifish, there would be no need for limits.

    Bullsh*t. Limits are there because Lego hasn't produced enough to meet demand. If they made more, limits become unnecessary. That's why even non-exclusives are sometimes given limits when they first debut.
    Thats why I do not say it's all a re-sellers fault. I think Lego deserves some blame for the situation, but not all of it. Other parties need to see their role and take some responsibility rather then blame everyone else. Re-sellers deserve some blame because they cause part of the issue, and the buyers who spend 3 times the RRP on an item deserve some of the blame.
    wagnerml2 said:

    @pvancil27 - I must heartily disagree. The reseller can only exist where a demand remains in the market after the primary stock has been depleted. Unlike concert tickets, that have a finite number of seats, Lego could produce as many #41999's or Minecraft as they want. They don't, because the feeding frenzy caused by the shortage is exactly what they are after. While they may have underestimated Minecraft, the rising resale and post EOL costs of their product continues to drive the market for their current releases. Market share is growing because there are more buyers for the product. That is partially attributable to the higher aftermarket values.

    I don't blame a reseller for taking advantage of an opportunity to make money. Whether he/she is an AFOL or just a transient who is buying Lego because it is the product du juor, the aftermarket is not his fault. To the extent it is a bad thing, it's Lego's fault. That is a point that I believe is indisputable.

    I have no issues with anyone's feelings. I found the debate somewhat helpful, however, more than likely, at some point a truce is going to need to be declared and retire the discussion.

    As said above, I do think Lego shares in the blame, but they are not 100% at fault. If the state makes a 3 miles stretch of interstate in the middle of no where a 30MPH zone for no good reason, they deserve some blame for all the speeding tickets getting racked up, but the idiots who chanced not slowing down from 70(buyers) for that short stretch deserve some blame, as do the cops (re-sellers) praying on people in a bad situation.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290

    Seriously? If this is a statement backed up by the other admins and Huw this drastically changes my perception of the site and its caretakers.

    That is a statement by me. I would be surprised if I was alone in having the opinion that someone who only takes from this community and contributes nothing imperils their membership in the community.
    caperberrySirKevbagsPhoneboothy2josh
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013
    ^ I don't mean members that are shy or withdrawn. This was purely a hypothetical scenario as my ability to detect this is very much fanciful. I'll be more clear, though: I meant someone that reads this forum only to consume information about shopping deals and buying and selling, and has never shared nor has any desire to share any information or insight of their own; has never once read a collecting thread, introduced himself/herself, etc.
    SirKevbagsLostInTranslationcaperberryPitfall69dougtsCoolsplash
  • LostInTranslationLostInTranslation UKMember Posts: 5,572
    Ah, ok. Sounds great in principle :-)
  • LobotLobot UKMember Posts: 1,021
    It's interesting to see such a range of opinions about this, I didn't realise that anyone could be so passionate about plastic! In truth I love my bricks, but I'd never want to get an ulcer about them.

    My opinion: I don't mind resellers at all. If LFT & Co wants to invest in plastic, rather than stocks & shares then it's entirely up to them and I hope they do well, providing that they don't do anything to get-around any rules set by TLG.

    Personally, I'm still annoyed about how TLG acted during this years 'May 4th' (promo). I would have loved a UCS B Wing @ 50% off like the US, but in the UK it wasn't to be. To be honest it's quietly shaken my affection for the company and I'll never understand why they did it. It’s like they were almost encouraging resellers; sell them at 50% off and allow up to 5 per customer... how many fans would ever want 5 B Wings in their collection?!!
    juggles7
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