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The Community Perspective on Reselling

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Comments

  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    Pitfall69 said:

    By not discounting exclusives, Lego could have the same type of problem on their hands. I think resellers getting product during sales actually keeps aftermarket prices down depending on your "business" model.

    If you get the FB on sale for $110, one would probably consider selling for less than their standard 2.5x RRP.

    I am not at all convinced that keeping prices down in the aftermarket is a goal of TLG. They may not really care about that one way or another.

    I think what they do care about is the price if current sets that they are actively promoting.

    What someone sells a MMV for at this point may well be of supreme indifference to them, what someone sells a FB for, may well be of great importance to them.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    y2josh said:

    LEGO doesn't do mixed cases in the traditional sense, but (at least the last I checked) they have a 'mixed case' mentality in terms of ITD orders. For example, they wouldn't just let you order 1000 Jabba's Palaces and nothing else... they want you to carry a range of products so as to represent the brand.

    60% of the product line is the guideline... Of course, you don't have to order that each time, just carry it in general across the year.

    But you ignored my example... I wasn't talking about 1,000 Jabba's Palace sets... If I wanted to buy 1 million of them, it all changes...

    Just like the TMNT action figures, you're correct that the standard case allotment is what it is, until the dollar figure grows high enough.
    y2josh said:

    The impression that I get (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you don't necessarily want to represent LEGO as a brand

    You're wrong. :)

    Last year I tried to buy an existing company that had a ITD account as well as an existing web site, I was going to build that web site and expand it into something special, a place to go to get your current and retired sets in the same place, without having to search Amazon or eBay for set numbers.

    TLG closed all the web-only ITD accounts 2 weeks before we closed on the deal.

    I would be happy to represent LEGO, and to do so in a positive light. But they said no when I asked to do business directly with them.
    y2josh said:

    but you do want them to work with you, almost exclusively on your terms, which doesn't seem advantageous to TLG, especially when they (presumably) have plenty of accounts with ITDs willing to accept the conditions TLG have laid out for them.

    Those ITD accounts are setup for small mom and pop toy stores, I'm interested in buying far more than they do, so yes, I'd like different terms.

    There seems to be this overly heavy focus on ITD accounts, as if that is the only option, that, or be Walmart's size. ITDs are for small stores, large accounts are for Walmart. They are missing the medium option. :)
    Pitfall69
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    rocao said:

    @LegoFanTexas: You didn't respond to my comment that it's quite possible that your offer isn't large enough for TLG to create special terms, so I'll assume you concede that point :)

    And I said if you wanted to discuss it, to PM me in private, which you didn't, so I'll assume you weren't interested. :)
    rocao said:

    This just doesn't make any sense. Why do they need to do anything for you? They are not obligated to sustain your business model.

    Why? Well, they did ask something of me, so it is only fair that I ask for something in return.

    You're right, they don't have to do anything for me, but then why should I listen to their requests?
    rocao said:

    Sometimes banks will only consider offers on a property from planned "owner-occupants".

    That is their right, investors aren't one of the "protected" status items under the Fair Housing Act.

    But you really shouldn't use real estate as an example, the laws are complex and detailed when it comes to real estate. There are almost no such laws about LEGO.
    rocao said:

    Investors planning to resell the house are not considered. If you are an investor, the bank is not obligated to find a different property for you. And if you choose to lie on the "owner occupancy" affidavit that is part of the application process so that you might still be able to buy the house, you are responsible for that fraud; the bank is not responsible because you feel they left you with no options.

    Please don't confuse the real "owner occupancy" affidavit with what a bank wants to or doesn't want to do.

    When getting a low down payment FHA loan, they do require owner occupancy, and will make you sign a paper saying so. It is a serious breach of federal law to lie on that, you can go to jail for doing so.

    If a bank simply asks you to certify that you aren't an investor and you lie about it, their only remedy is a civil suit.

    Those are two VERY different situations.

    As for buying from [email protected], any violation of their "terms and conditions" is a civil matter, they can sue a reseller, but they would have to prove damages, which would be rather hard to do.
    rocao said:

    So, as I was saying, your behavior of trying to get in on the back end of product life just complicates the much larger driving force of their product cycle, and though you introduce more sales of Ewok Village, it is just displacing the next thing that they are making and selling. You didn't really add any value.

    If TLG doesn't see value in it, then so be it, we'll all keep buying from [email protected] and LEGO stores, and TLG can keep trying to stick their finger in the leak in the dam. :)

    You seem to forget that this isn't just me asking for something, TLG has asked for something, they have asked resellers to not buy from [email protected] and LEGO Stores.

    TLG has to offer resellers another option. Otherwise, what reason do resellers have to care what TLG has to say?

    I'm trying to offer solutions, if you don't like my solutions, offer one of you own. I notice that no alternative options are being presented.
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    ^ Perhaps TLG simply runs its business like a movie theater and wants you to choose the large for a quarter more?
    Pitfall69
  • vitreolumvitreolum RomaniaMember Posts: 1,406


    I am not at all convinced that keeping prices down in the aftermarket is a goal of TLG. They may not really care about that one way or another.

    I'm pretty sure Lego enjoys the secondary market for EOL sets as it is, they actually take pride in the fact that their product sells for an xxxx amount, especially since it doesn't affect their sales for current products they have for sale.

    Same goes for limited sets, they are not made for profit. It doesn't matter to them they could have made an extra 1-2mil with #41999, that set was a marketing device aimed at pleasing fans and hardcore collectors. The profit they made with that pales in comparison to #9398 .

    How many toy companies can claim their products sell for $500+ in the aftermarket? Look at all the other comicon exclusives, I haven't seen one that sells for the insane amount minifigs go for from this year...
  • SirKevbagsSirKevbags Fairy Land Member Posts: 4,027
    If sales were low I would like to think that any company would be looking at new ways to increase them. The fact is they are not. We all know that so any attempt to make TLG change the way they operate is right now a futile exercise.

    Now you could say that in boom times they should be looking to expand, searching out new opportunities. Sitting still and counting the pile can see things go backwards.

    Now what is the new opportunity? I would say their focus is likely to be territories where they don't have commanding sales. I don't recall the sales breakdown we were shown at AFOLCON last year but some countries will be lagging behind others.

    I think the current attitude put forward, the bannings and unjust removal of LUG discounts is a response to one to many Minecraft complaints. While it was a problem it was in my opinion still a regional one. It was always available in brand stores here in the UK when I visited right up until Christmas.

    It is going to take a pretty special proposal that is of huge benefit to make TLG alter a successful business model. I don't see that proposal written in this thread. So why don't I offer one? Well I'm not looking to change things.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 20,480

    ^ Those "rare" parts would quickly not be "rare" if they made more of them.

    Spitting out 10,000 light bley mast riggings would not be a big deal for TLG, but would for sure crush the value of that part on the market.

    Exactly. 10,000 (50,000, whatever) happy lego customers for not very much money. And if those parts came only in a new current set, and let's say lego designed a set using many of the parts in the MF then a healthy balance sheet too. They'd have no problem shifting large numbers - so company happy. Many people would get to built a set they missed out on - so builders happy. It wouldn't be a re-release of an existing set, so no manuals, boxes, etc - so MISB collectors and resellers would be happy.
  • luckyrussluckyruss UKMember Posts: 872
    I am now picturing something akin to the #21050 Architecture studio.

    Maybe a Star Wars or Spaceship Building studio, full of 1,500 light bley plates, wedges and boat rigging!
  • HardradaHardrada Member Posts: 439
    I think LFT's proposals are a bit too far detached from reality. In essence you want:
    - Deeper discounts than ITDs
    - Being told EOL dates and the possibility to order bigger quantities at a deep discount right before EOL so you don't have to sit on sets for X years (that sounds awfully lot like wanting your profit served on a silver plate)
    - Being able to cherry pick and order a lot from the more popular sets and order none of the other sets

    A reseller is less valuable to TLG than an ITD. You are largely on a market that TLG doesn't really care about. Why would you be offered bigger discounts and access to sets ITDs are not getting? If they don't allow mom-and-pop stores to sell the DS, why would they want to allow you? As long as the main reason is 'otherwise we'll screw with your brand store and [email protected] supply' it sounds quite like blackmailing.

    @y2josh is completely right about TLG's mixed case mindset. I know a few ITDs here in my country and TLG does push them towards ordering everything or at least full lines. Here ITDs can even order exclusives. But do you think TLG would deliver if one of them decided to order say 100 of FB this summer and none or just the normal quantities of other exclusives? I can say with 99,9% certainty that they wouldn't, even though 100 of FB is not that great a quantity either. Even ITDs are way down the line in importance for TLG, with online only ITDs being at the very bottom.* They get delivered last, and it's their orders that don't get fulfilled if more orders came in than there is available stock. Smaller partners here had to wait several months after Christmas before being restocked with some normal, run of the mill sets, like say Olivia's House, Summer Riding Camp or the Golden Dragon. They could order them but for several months they got none of them.

    Even though TLG boasts how swiftly they change production if they want to realities show otherwise. Their factories are right now producing close to capacity so producing more of something is only possible at the cost of producing less of something else. They can't or don't care to supply adequately even their current partners.


    *There is also a persistent rumour that from next year European ITDs will get only 20% off, with additional discounts available to those with brick and mortar stores. So ITDs with those will still get Lego at about 30% off, while online only partners will get only 20%. This also looks like a move to the other direction than LFT would like to see.
  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430
    ^agreed. We've been over and over this before. I cannot believe we're back to the "I want special treatment" discussion, especially since we know that purchase limitations and regulations are being circumvented.
  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430
    dougts said:

    ^ then why are you in this thread? It is, you realize, a community discussion about reselling, which as of the past several pages at least has been very civil and almost completely free of vitriol and loaded terms such as "scalp the market". I'm curious why you chose to wade in with your remark, which added absolutely zero to the conversation, and only serves to potentially re-ignite another contentious set of arguments.

    If you are sick of the this and that, as you say, then simply leave the thread and choose not to comment.

    I'm in this thread as its the "community perspective" on reselling, and until I get booted, I'm still entitled to my opinion. Perhaps more importantly, I am in this thread as I feel that reselling - at least to some degree - is responsible for the recent changes in TLGs attitude to AFOLs (tightened purchase restrictions during afol days, loss of discount for displays,etc).

    It's sad that the actions of a few seriously impact the many, and worse so, that at times it's done in a complete selfish I'm-entitled-to-my-profit fashion.
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550

    dougts said:

    ^ then why are you in this thread? It is, you realize, a community discussion about reselling, which as of the past several pages at least has been very civil and almost completely free of vitriol and loaded terms such as "scalp the market". I'm curious why you chose to wade in with your remark, which added absolutely zero to the conversation, and only serves to potentially re-ignite another contentious set of arguments.

    If you are sick of the this and that, as you say, then simply leave the thread and choose not to comment.

    I'm in this thread as its the "community perspective" on reselling, and until I get booted, I'm still entitled to my opinion. Perhaps more importantly, I am in this thread as I feel that reselling - at least to some degree - is responsible for the recent changes in TLGs attitude to AFOLs (tightened purchase restrictions during afol days, loss of discount for displays,etc).

    It's sad that the actions of a few seriously impact the many, and worse so, that at times it's done in a complete selfish I'm-entitled-to-my-profit fashion.
    When the issue of keeping this thread open was discussed, there were several problems pointed out that led to the repeated nasty turn in the discussion. One of those was people who had no interest in a subject throwing in their opinion just because they dislike something that does not pertain to them. Yes, you're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't mean you should express it. If you don't like a topic, then you should just keep your mouth shut and move on to another thread.

    Additionally, there's a difference between what you "feel...is responsible" and what is responsible. Unless you have facts to back up a statement, remarks such as your last comment are completely unfounded not to mention hypocritical since you're motivated by an equally selfish reason.

  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430
    edited August 2013
    ^@prof1515 - you are absolutely correct and I should apologize as I have no concrete facts.

    TLGs recent policy changes appear absolutely random and have no bearing on the consumer/reseller issues occurring over the recent 12 months.


    Hypocritical... That one actually made me chuckle a bit.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013

    And I said if you wanted to discuss it, to PM me in private, which you didn't, so I'll assume you weren't interested. :)

    The offer to PM was to discuss what the metaphorical "breakfast table" was that you were saying you'd kick over of TLG's if they peed in your cereal. What I was talking about here was in reference to your statement that TLG needs to offer something to people such as yourself that fall between the minimum ITD seller and big box stores. I suggested that they might be willing to, but that your particular offer might not have been large enough to interest them.

    Why? Well, they did ask something of me, so it is only fair that I ask for something in return.

    You're right, they don't have to do anything for me, but then why should I listen to their requests?

    Wait, what did they ask of you? Are you saying that since LBR politely asked you not to use [email protected] to obtain sets for resale, rather than telling you, they need to give you something? Are you seriously suggesting that you need to be compensated for following the rules?

    Do you disregard traffic lights because they are telling you to stop, but don't physically prevent your vehicle from proceeding, and have the audacity to not offer you something in return?

    But you really shouldn't use real estate as an example, the laws are complex and detailed when it comes to real estate. There are almost no such laws about LEGO.

    There actually is a lot of legal precedent for the right of a retailer to refuse selling to a reseller.

    As for buying from [email protected], any violation of their "terms and conditions" is a civil matter, they can sue a reseller, but they would have to prove damages, which would be rather hard to do.

    I didn't say a reseller breaking [email protected]'s terms was a federal offense, so that doesn't invalidate the comparison to banks selling houses. I used that example to illustrate how it is obviously untrue that the bank refusing to sell to someone must then find them something else to buy.

    I shouldn't need to bring in other examples, but for some reason you keep stating that LBR needs to do something for you, when that's obviously not the case. You want them to do something for you -- big difference.

    You seem to forget that this isn't just me asking for something, TLG has asked for something, they have asked resellers to not buy from [email protected] and LEGO Stores.

    TLG has to offer resellers another option. Otherwise, what reason do resellers have to care what TLG has to say?

    There it is again. Please explain why they have to offer resellers an option.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    I think you are both right. TLG doesn't have to offer resellers anything of course - they are free to make the rules and enforce them however they wish. And LFT's proposals are clearly wishful thinking at best, and stand no chance of becoming reality with TLG's current leadership and growth trajectories

    However, LFT's point is this: if TLG continues down the path they have been on this past year in regards to resellers, then resellers essentially have no reason left to follow any of the rules - if they can't buy from TLG shop at home, if they no longer get any discounts on exclusives, if they get told in stores their business isn't wanted, and who knows what else. At some point there is no reason whatsoever to care about playing nice anymore, and resellers can and will thwart the rules and play the system with impunity. What do they have to lose? Nothing - everything has already been taken away.
    LegoFanTexasvitreolumYellowcastleCam_n_StupharmjodJP3804
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    rocao said:

    Wait, what did they ask of you? Are you saying that since LBR politely asked you not to use [email protected] to obtain sets for resale, rather than telling you, they need to give you something? Are you seriously suggesting that you need to be compensated for following the rules?

    It is all fine to make that point if we're in a formal debate and we're scoring points with the debate moderator.

    What I'm suggesting is that out in the real world, resellers (in general) aren't going to stop just because TLG tells them to.

    Right or wrong, good or bad, that is how it is.
    rocao said:

    I shouldn't need to bring in other examples, but for some reason you keep stating that LBR needs to do something for you, when that's obviously not the case. You want them to do something for you -- big difference.

    No, what I'm saying is that TLG is living in fantasy land if they believe that just asking resellers to stop is going to have much effect.

    If TLG wants it to stop, then they have to offer something else. Do I want them to? Yes and no, there are merits to the current system, but a new system could be interesting as well.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    Hardrada said:

    I think LFT's proposals are a bit too far detached from reality. In essence you want:
    - Deeper discounts than ITDs
    - Being told EOL dates and the possibility to order bigger quantities at a deep discount right before EOL so you don't have to sit on sets for X years (that sounds awfully lot like wanting your profit served on a silver plate)
    - Being able to cherry pick and order a lot from the more popular sets and order none of the other sets

    I'm just tossing out ideas... I don't see anyone else offering up suggestions. :)

    If you think my idea sucks, fair enough... I do see that it has some issues...

    What would you do then, if you were in TLG's position, and your stated goal was to get resellers to stop buying from [email protected] and LEGO Stores?
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    There have been comparisons to Action Figures and Hot wheels, but does anyone know what Mattel's business model is; or American Girl's? I'm sure they have similar problems with "resellers" as Lego does, but I think American girl embraces it.

    I don't know why Lego is any different than any other company that produces toys and collectibles. If someone has some insight, that would be great.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,290
    edited August 2013

    What I'm suggesting is that out in the real world, resellers (in general) aren't going to stop just because TLG tells them to.

    Right or wrong, good or bad, that is how it is.

    No, what I'm saying is that TLG is living in fantasy land if they believe that just asking resellers to stop is going to have much effect.

    If you would have said this and not that TLG was obligated to offer an alternative, you would have had no objection from me. I know that people are willing to skirt and break rules for their benefit.

    If TLG wants it to stop, then they have to offer something else. Do I want them to? Yes and no, there are merits to the current system, but a new system could be interesting as well.

    Oh, wait, there it is again! Why do you keep doing that?

    I understand that you are suggesting an effective way to get resellers to willfully stop buying from LBR is to offer an attractive alternative. But that doesn't mean they have to do that.

    By the way, I feel that people are assuming that TLG wants to stop all reselling, and I think that's an incorrect assumption. I mentioned this back when you were banned from [email protected] Some people inferred that action as TLG wanting to ban all reselling, and from that inference said that it wouldn't work, and therefore they should not ban anyone.

    The behavior that I've seen from TLG is that they have only gone after larger resellers, and that statement from Brickpicker also indicates this distinction. Maybe that is them being realistic. I see it as very plausible that banning accounts, enforcing limits, and implementing other policing would knock out big resellers.
  • HardradaHardrada Member Posts: 439


    I'm just tossing out ideas... I don't see anyone else offering up suggestions. :)

    If you think my idea sucks, fair enough... I do see that it has some issues...

    What would you do then, if you were in TLG's position, and your stated goal was to get resellers to stop buying from [email protected] and LEGO Stores?

    I think that question has no easy answers. You can stop them from doing that only by not offering any meaningful discounts and promos ever at those places. You can do next to nothing against those that game the system and TLG can't afford to enter into a business relationship with the small to medium resellers anyhow. Your idea is effectively that TLG should offer such big discounts to the large resellers with which they could make good money at or barely above RRP. That might indeed be able to weed out the small to medium resellers. But I doubt TLG wants that as their problem is more with the big time resellers. Also by offering such discounts to resellers TLG would further facilitate extended availability of sets long after retirement at affordable prices. Which might not be desirable to them at all. It's good for TLG if retired sets cost an arm and leg for at least two reasons:
    - It makes buying Lego more desirable for quite a lot of customers. Perception of value, etc.
    - It prices out the general public from buying retired sets and thus they don't have to compete against their sets from say 2-3 years ago.

    sidersddLegoFanTexas
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    edited August 2013
    I think it is clear TLG wants to crack down on buying/selling currently in production sets. I'm honestly not sure what their true stance is anymore in regards to sets no longer being produced - I expect they like the perceived value that their product holds, but at the same time see money spent on those items as money they aren't making on current items, so that is likely a more confused and conflicted issue withing the company.

    In regards to reselling of current sets, outside of the short supply items (Minecraft, Lloyd, 41999), one of the biggest opportunities in this regard has simply been buying in the US - even at full RRP - and shipping overseas, making money off of either product unavailability in the target region, or via the sometimes quite large pricing difference between the US and the other regions. This can be done either an item (or handful) at a time to a single buyer, or in bulk sending palletfuls at a time to an overseas reseller. LEGO could make a huge dent in this market simply by reducing the pricing discrepancy and/or offering free shipping to some of those markets. And in fact, this is exactly what they did in Australia. Up until a few month ago selling exclusives to Australia was a steady supply of income - not big money, but the trickle and the VIP points were enough to buy a lot of LEGO over the course of they year. But now that LEGO ships free to Australia, it is cheaper for Australians to get these items directly from LEGO than it is from a reseller. Thus, LEGO has largely killed this market - and done it in the right way - by offering a more fair deal to Australians. They could similarly curtail this export/import market of in production sets by doing similar things in other markets. After all, if a reseller can do this on their own, buying at or near RRP, and still make money, then LEGO can surely undercut those resellers and still make plenty of profit. It's time for the price gouging by LEGO to end.
    rocaosamiam391sidersddLegoFanTexasvitreolumYellowcastlepharmjodJP3804
  • BrickarmorBrickarmor USAMember Posts: 1,258
    ^The Chinese plant will provide the coup de grace for that strategy come 2017.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    ^ perhaps, but LEGO could offer better regional pricing right now if they wanted to, and end the practice much sooner. They have chosen a strategy of milking as much money out of certain markets as they can. One can only hope that the recent lessening of this strategy in Australia spreads to other regions as well.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404

    ^The Chinese plant will provide the coup de grace for that strategy come 2017.

    I personally maintain that 20 years from now we'll all look back and see the move of production to China as one of the biggest mistakes TLG has ever made.

    They will end up teaching the Chinese exactly how to make perfect building bricks, I expect the quality of clones to rise quickly once this happens.

    Just a thought... What would happen if Mega Bloc was suddenly the same quality brick as LEGO? What about KREO?

    In my view, keeping production in Europe would be smart, the Chinese copy everything. :(
    vitreolummargotpharmjodBumblepantschromedigi
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,404
    Hardrada said:

    I think that question has no easy answers. You can stop them from doing that only by not offering any meaningful discounts and promos ever at those places.

    That will help sometimes, the challenge is that some sets don't matter, full RRP is still worth buying them at.

    #41999 - Exhibit A
    Hardrada said:

    You can do next to nothing against those that game the system

    That was my thinking behind... "If you can't beat 'em, join them" idea...
    But clearly I seem to be in the minority there. :)
    Hardrada said:

    and TLG can't afford to enter into a business relationship with the small to medium resellers anyhow.

    It might be worth stating what "small and medium" means to you in dollar terms, or volume of sets terms.

    We might have very different ideas on what a medium LEGO reseller means.
    Hardrada said:

    Your idea is effectively that TLG should offer such big discounts to the large resellers with which they could make good money at or barely above RRP.

    Ok, how about small discounts? :)

    What if the discount was 25% as a delivered price?
    Hardrada said:

    Also by offering such discounts to resellers TLG would further facilitate extended availability of sets long after retirement at affordable prices.

    I would suggest that if they don't want that to happen, they need to retire sets sooner.

    Witness Zombies and how fast that jumped in price. Witness MMV and how it isn't jumping in price, the former was out barely 6 months, the latter was out 4 years.
    Hardrada said:

    Which might not be desirable to them at all. It's good for TLG if retired sets cost an arm and leg for at least two reasons:
    - It makes buying Lego more desirable for quite a lot of customers. Perception of value, etc.
    - It prices out the general public from buying retired sets and thus they don't have to compete against their sets from say 2-3 years ago.

    That is a fair point and it is something that I've considered...

    That is why I made the suggestion above of a lower discount, say 25% instead of 40%. Does that change anything? It gives TLG closer to RRP and a lot more than Walmart/Amazon are paying them.

    In that case, I would be getting sets for about what I get them for today, but much easier delivery than messing with 20 orders a week from 5 different websites.
  • princedravenprincedraven Essex, UKMember Posts: 3,764
    Why oh why are we going over this all again, this is serious DejaVu, we done this to death months ago.
    @LFT you want the world on a plate.
    TLG effectively said sling your hook.

    End of story, no-one on here is going to change that situation.

    Also, why do you keep going on about "oh but if I buy 1 million they would have to change there ways". You clearly can't do that or you would have.

  • princedravenprincedraven Essex, UKMember Posts: 3,764
    prof1515 said:

    not to mention hypocritical since you're motivated by an equally selfish reason.

    @prof1515 You are 100% wrong with this statement, the impact is on the entire AFOL community (i.e. exactly what Brickset is supposed to be about) NOT @phonebooth, so how on earth is that a selfish reason!
  • vitreolumvitreolum RomaniaMember Posts: 1,406
    If only the community had so much perspective in other threads as well...
    FollowsCloselyaugen
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    I think we all understand that "we" can't do much about TLG's business practices. The many comments about "what if" are merely suggestions and ideas. This thread is about how this community feels toward reselling. I'm sure that this is just a small sample group of opinions on the matter and I'm sure the opinions differ from country to country.

    We all want something; whether you are a reseller or not. To say that certain resellers are selfish may be true, but consumers that only want Lego at below RRP are selfish as well.

    As far as going round and round with the same argument; I think it is because people keep asking the same questions. Some are new to this thread and are late to the "party" and feel to ask the same questions that were asked many pages ago. Also, I think there are people that have been at the "party" for too long and maybe need to stop "partying" and go outside and grab some air ;)
    TheLoneTensorLegoFanTexasYellowcastleFollowsCloselypharmjod
  • SirKevbagsSirKevbags Fairy Land Member Posts: 4,027
    Lets forget the after market all together. I encourage TLG to form a secret coven.

    They stockpile 2000 of each retired set in a secret undisclosed location. Every approved afol is allowed to buy two different sets per year. To become approved you need to be nominated by your LEGO ambassador. All sets priced at rrp + 1% for every year post retirement to cover storage costs. Problem solved ;-)
    LostInTranslationYellowcastleindigobox
  • jasorjasor United StatesMember Posts: 839
    It's all perception. I go to two stores, searching for one thing. I have my threshold of what I deem acceptable for price. One of those stores is close, but I'm super saavy (and deal oriented to boot)....so, I check out the other store only to find out they raised their pricing above the other store.

    All of the sudden, my perception of my previous perception shifted. I head back to the first store, purchase my one thing, for the better price. It was above my previous notion, but below the current reality somewhere else.

    We do this all the time. At least I do. Sometimes, I even get below pricing for that one thing. I'm kinda glad that I got it at store 1, since there are plenty of chances for someone else to get it at that now better price. I'm also kinda glad the store 2 has that thing (even at a raised price)...because what if that one thing was gone on my return?

    Was that rambly? that was rambly, wasnt it?

    You cant beat out supply/demand. It'll get you every time. Hopefully, most of the time you're on the supply side.
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550

    prof1515 said:

    not to mention hypocritical since you're motivated by an equally selfish reason.

    @prof1515 You are 100% wrong with this statement, the impact is on the entire AFOL community (i.e. exactly what Brickset is supposed to be about) NOT @phonebooth, so how on earth is that a selfish reason!
    Actually it's you who are wrong. Something can be selfish even if it affects others so long as one's concern is the affect it has on them. The "impact on the entire AFOL community" doesn't change that and is for the most part negligible anyway.

    As Pitfall pointed out after your comment...
    Pitfall69 said:

    We all want something; whether you are a reseller or not. To say that certain resellers are selfish may be true, but consumers that only want Lego at below RRP are selfish as well.

  • princedravenprincedraven Essex, UKMember Posts: 3,764
    I give up! What complete fools this site is full of!
    Resellers - do what they do for personal gain.
    A collector who points out that their gain is at the impact of the AFOL community and you call them selfish!

    You clearly live on a different planet than I.
    PhoneboothCCCgreenwithenvy
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110


    Resellers - do what they do for personal gain.
    A collector who points out that their gain is at the impact of the AFOL community and you call them selfish!

    while this is sometimes true, it's not always true

  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    "I'm BAD Ash... and you're GOOD Ash! Good, bad... I'm the guy with the gun."
  • LootefiskLootefisk Member Posts: 67
    edited August 2013

    In my view, keeping production in Europe would be smart, the Chinese copy everything. :(

    Given the number of fake Rolex's, original production location, whether its in Europe or China, has very little bearing on its ability to be copied.
  • PhoneboothPhonebooth USMember Posts: 1,430
    ^not even sure what this means - that also goes for @prof1515 @doughts above.
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    ^ The above posts seem pretty straightforward to me. Ash was good until evil got into his arm, forcing him to lop it off. Then, little bad ashes jumped into Good Ash's mouth, causing him to split into a big Bad Ash. ;o)
    Pitfall69pharmjodjasor
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    Just because TLG won't likely change their business plan to meet resellers, doesn't mean it can't be posited here. That being said, I think the question is only borderline topical in this thread. Would it make sense to split that part of the discussion? Or do we feel tilting at the LEGO MVR's is the natural evolution here? TLG could sell directly to LFT and yet my perception on reselling is relatively unmoved.
  • augenaugen Worcester, UKMember Posts: 317

    But that is just it, they can't ban any of those sellers, it is a mistake to try. Far more would be gained by working with resellers rather than swimming upstream.

    I have seen you state this, or words to this effect a couple of times. I am not sure why you believe this, but it smacks at arrogance or ignorance. Lego could easily implement policies that would make it nigh on impossible for resellers to have access to more than one limited edition set, or simply just flood the market with the ones that they know will be popular. They might not get it right every time, but they would definitely be able to devalue the secondary market for resellers. The real question is what lengths will TLG go to to stop resellers. The TLG have a strong track record in protecting their brand, so the more resellers make crass statements or brag about circumventing TLG's current restrictions, the more likely they will implement more draconian rules. If I was you, I would just keep my mouth shut and focus on reselling.

  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,550
    At Chicago Comic Con last year...

    Bruce Campbell (pointing to my hat): Who are you supposed to be?
    Me: I'm just me. This is how I dress.
    Bruce Campbell: Oh. I like the hat.
    Pitfall69sidersddpharmjodjasordrdavewatford
  • YellowcastleYellowcastle Northern VirginiaAdministrator, Moderator Posts: 5,234
    edited August 2013
    augen said:

    But that is just it, they can't ban any of those sellers, it is a mistake to try. Far more would be gained by working with resellers rather than swimming upstream.

    I have seen you state this, or words to this effect a couple of times. I am not sure why you believe this, but it smacks at arrogance or ignorance. Lego could easily implement policies that would make it nigh on impossible for resellers to have access to more than one limited edition set, or simply just flood the market with the ones that they know will be popular. They might not get it right every time, but they would definitely be able to devalue the secondary market for resellers. The real question is what lengths will TLG go to to stop resellers. The TLG have a strong track record in protecting their brand, so the more resellers make crass statements or brag about circumventing TLG's current restrictions, the more likely they will implement more draconian rules. If I was you, I would just keep my mouth shut and focus on reselling.
    I agree that publicizing the flaunting of set limits is poor form, almost as much as flaunting them in the first place.

    I disagree with you, though, that TLG shouldn't necessarily dialogue with resellers, assuming they do have some applicable impact on LEGO's business. I imagine they do. I liken it (awaits rebuttal from Rocao) to the online poker situation. The US govt came down hard on it and have yet to consider any of the proposed alternatives here. As such, the business hasn't just dried up but moved further into the dark where the US can't regulate it or monetize it. If/when they decide to explore a happy medium, it will likely be win/win in many aspects. I would think TLG would get more overall value in bringing the LFTs to the table.

  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    I'm sorry for my Army of Darkness quote. I felt that it was necessary. The only way "Good" Ash was going to win that fight was if he had a gun, as he stated. All they were doing before that was going back n forth. I see there are very few Evil Dead fans :(

    @princedraven "A fool always finds one still more foolish to admire him."
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,454
    @Yellowcastle

    In my business, we have "booth renters" that rent space from us to run their business. They complain constantly and always request a meeting to air their greivances. I always comply because unhappy people aren't good for business. Lego would do good to entertain a meeting with large scale resellers and possibly come to some sort of agreement. Technically, resellers are customers as well and if one of their goals is great customer service then they should at least entertain the thought.
    Yellowcastlepharmjodchromedigi
  • SirKevbagsSirKevbags Fairy Land Member Posts: 4,027
    I would be interested to know how much money we think is involved here. Can anyone give an educated guess as to the value of re seller sales? That will give us more of an idea if we think its worth TLG talking to them.
    LegoFanTexasYellowcastle
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    ^ well, I suspect that number would be awfully hard to come by. But considering that LEGO continues to make efforts to crack down on resellers, the number must be big enough to get their attention.
    LegoFanTexasYellowcastlepharmjodjasor
  • Cam_n_StuCam_n_Stu UKMember Posts: 368
    @augen I've seen major manufacturers in a couple of industries try this before, i.e. to artificially control or restrict the grey market. It is a fight that is generally unwise and expensive to start in any meaningful way. As you suggest it requires draconian rules that are often difficult and expensive to administer, yet relatively easy and cheap to circumvent and which will also alienate your 'legitimate' customers when they are impacted.*

    TLG would be unwise to forgot that, as LFT suggests, when you are openly anti-reseller the gloves come off and all sorts of unexpected behaviour appears. We saw resellers buying in-bulk wholesale quantities from legitimate channel partners who would otherwise have barely made their quotas for the year and hence we happy to chance a contract termination, we saw items getting shipped internationally in bulk to meet grey market demand - due in part to an unequal global pricing model and in part due to less rigorous enforcement of the rules in certain regions. One of the companies involved, having spent £Ms over 3-4 years trying to control the secondary market, gave up and legitimized a number of the biggest unofficial resellers when they realised they were messing up their global sales channel! I'm not saying LEGO is in the same game or even that I would expect them to care about OOP resale but *any* restrictive rules can and often do have unexpected consequences.

    * It sounds like we may have seen this with LEGO already in regards to the AFOL purchase schemes.
    LegoFanTexasdougtsYellowcastle
  • SirKevbagsSirKevbags Fairy Land Member Posts: 4,027
    edited August 2013
    dougts said:

    ^ well, I suspect that number would be awfully hard to come by. But considering that LEGO continues to make efforts to crack down on resellers, the number must be big enough to get their attention.

    I would agree its difficult but this is could be a vital piece of information in this discussion. Is the crackdown based on TLG assumed re seller sales numbers or one to many angry Minecraft emails from frustrated parents?
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,110
    At first I thought it was just Minecraft, but continued actions and policy changes over the past 9 months lead me to believe it is much more than that.
  • sidersddsidersdd USAMember Posts: 2,432
    dougts said:

    At first I thought it was just Minecraft, but continued actions and policy changes over the past 9 months lead me to believe it is much more than that.

    Especially since the Cuusoo sets aren't even on the list of "exclusives" excluded from event discounts.
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