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Comments
I had a similar experience as rocao, in that an individual I ran across was a very nice person. We were waiting to see if the employees were going to discount anything further that morning. After talking with her I realized she s a reseller, and was trying to conceal that fact, and trying to gain info from me. When I went to another Target later, I heard employees talking about this same individual and that she called about the markdowns, and how she comes in every year and buys a ton of stuff.
It was interesting to see how my perception changed.
In addition, LFT raises a very interesting point I have not thought of, and one that is coming more true around me. I generally buy one and leave the rest on the shelf. Lst year with the mine deal, I bought one for my nephew and left the rest. I went to a different walmart to pick-up one for my son. The first store was wiped by two hours later. I did not want to wipe the first store out in case a mom came in looking for one for her kid, but yeah... A reseller probably did grab them.
You wanted a deal that would allow you to clear out inventory (i.e. you made a mistake/miscaluculation and bought too much or too early) of sets that you acquired at a discount. Yeah, I'll go out on a limb and postulate there is no way that you paid full MSRP plus tax for a room full of DS sets, particularly since you noted that "It was $247 delivered after redcard discount. Yea, that deal was hard to beat." in this forum. So, what you wanted was $400 worth of sets that were either rare and likely to command a premium or retired sets whose value was known and achievable. $400 minus $247 comes to $153...minus 15% paypal/shipping still nets $130, which is more than a 50% return on the initial $247.
It's fine to set a deal up like this, but c'mon...claiming it's "fair" is kinda a stretch. Someone can either pay full retail at $400 from Lego/TRU/Etc. or pay you $400. Either way, they spend $400...but neither you nor a retailer paid $400 to acquire it. So, either way, there is a profit made. Now, I don't know any store that claims to be "fair" in that they are seeking to make a profit. Re-sellers are generally also trying to profit. In this case, you are just transferring the potential profit from the retailer to reseller.
Plain and simple, you want to make a profit...which again is fine, but you can't then really claim "fairness" can you? Just my opinion, but that's taking some pretty grand liberties with the use of "fair"
Frankly, if I was in TLG's position, I'd want resellers working with me and leaving the retail shelves alone, it also would give me some measure of control over the resellers since they would have something to lose by ignoring me.
Carrot and stick works well, stick alone does not.
eta your request:
I am looking for these for personal collection:
Superman Black Hero Escape-$5
X-wing -$20
Bat cave-$35
Attack of the Wargs-$10
Sith Interceptor - $49
Goblin King battle-$30
Mines or Moria -$30
Stunt plane -$5
Weathertop
Just like they should know the show exclusives go to resellers (mostly). No, I'm going to disagree with you here... I do believe that is exactly what it means, their intent is to see the aftermarket rise and thus make all of their products seem more valuable.
It is called the halo effect, it is the same reason Dodge makes the Viper, VW makes the Vyron, etc... those cars make no business sense, but they sure improve the host company's image.
20K copies of a set like this makes no sense, other than to create a huge price increase and buzz.
After all, we're still talking about it, it ended up on SlickDeals, didn't it? The amount of exposure this set gave TLG is priceless, it makes the whole product line look better, Technic even more so.
This reminds me of the fiasco last year when people were complaining about their Death Star sets from Walmart having shipping labels stuck to the box. They were getting a helluva' deal on an expensive set, but also expected white glove treatment.
I was specific when I stated "retired sets", I even said so in the post you just quoted.
It doesn't serve me in any way to swap one current set for another, why would I bother? Nonsense, it is a perfectly fair deal.
First, it doesn't matter what I paid for my DS. Some of them I did pay full retail for, I've had 6 in my inventory for 2 years now, bought at the LEGO store for full price.
Second, some sets are recently retired that forum members got for 50% off or more. I'm not asking for them for what they paid, I'm asking for current market value. I did more than a dozen trades with people on this forum, mostly for just that stuff, clearanced items that I am not near.
The value for someone else in this deal is that they picked up sets for 50% off and I'm giving them perhaps 75% of the RRP, thus they are making 25% on their investment without any fees. On a DS, that is the same as getting it for $300, which is doable, but not very often.
So if you have a Walmart near you that does a great clearance, pickup $300 worth of sets and trade them to me for a DS. Instant 25% off discount. Helps you save $100 and helps me clear out stale inventory.
---------
Example:
#8092 - Luke's Landspeeder - lets say you found these a few months ago for $12.50 (which is what Walmart clearanced them for) each.
They are currently going for $25 on Bricklink. Ok, I'll give you that value, doubling your money without having to sell them 1 at a time.
$400 for a DS translates into 16 Luke's Landspeeders.
In that case, your out of pocket cost was $200 for a DS.
Yes, you can sell them 1 at a time for $25, but I'll trade a DS for 16 of them today.
And you think I'm being unfair with that deal? Really?
Perhaps this is why they wanted to get them off of the shelves so quickly and didn't enforce stricter purchasing rules...
That said, you are taking my comment out of context to apply to a more specific situation. The average person buying Lego is not looking for mint-condition box quality. As a result, simply buying one online at the earliest possible time is completely satisfactory in achieving their goal. The problem arises not from that strategy but rather from people *NOT* employing it. They wait, they try to find the sets in stores and they try to find discounts. Doing any of that is a good way to forfeit your chances of finding one. I don't buy Lego from eBay, WalMart or Amazon. I only buy it from Lego Shop-at-Home and occassionally from Entertainment Earth (as they have a mint guarantee) though I prefer Shop-at-Home and they account for over 95% of my orders.
My first rule would be "no selling above RRP for current sets". Once a set is marked as retired on the [email protected] site, fair game. Before then, sell at RRP. This is legal if you have a contractual agreement, it is not if you don't.
Of course I'd love to tell TRU that as well, but TLG has no real power to do that, TRU is too big a customer.
My second rule would be, "no clearing retail shelves of current product". Order it direct from us like everyone else. This rule of course would get broken, but at least there is some enforcement that can be done, and those people who really break it can be expelled from the program.
My third rule? I'd simply tell everyone up front when sets are retiring. I think it is a mistake to make that info secret. If I, as a ITD, know that XYZ sets are retiring in 6 months, I can plan my ordering to have enough stock at retirement without clearing shelves two weeks before Christmas.
There are thousands of casual resellers, but not nearly as many serious resellers. Get the bigger ones in-house and a lot of problems can be controlled.
@LegoFanTexas
Dude, c'mon! You sent me a PM:
"Current sets need to be something I can sell.
I'd of course take Minecraft, or store exclusives, or Technic, anything that isn't available everywhere."
Please don't portray me as making stuff up. And my point remains valid that you're not attempting to help people out by setting up a "fair" trade...you want to make a profit, which is fine. I'm just saying to call a spade a spade, and not try to twist things around like there is some hidden social agenda to better the world's collectors of Lego's.
But, re: your Walmart example, are you now saying you'd trade 16 landspeeders for a DS? How about a stash of Zurgs or PoP? If so, than I'll eat crow...
Conversely, there is an "entitlement" syndrome for some AFOLs in the community, where everyone needs to get what they want, always at RRP, within the parameters of the rules, and all will be good in the world. It's just not true. I wish it was. Believe me, if I have a chance to help someone at a store get the CMF they want, give a kid a head's up on a good set my family has, caution a parent of potential savings from one store or the next...I do it (and gladly).
If I see an opportunity to further my own cause...I do it. Human nature is a beast. I doubt there are very many AFOLs that have not benefitted personally in some way in their hobby, without a negative impact on someone else. Does it feel GOOD? Not unless you're a bit "dickish." Does it happen? You betcha.
"Only Sith deal in absolutes and ultimatums"
Which PoP sets? some are better than others.
What is a Zurg? That Toy Story thing? Bleah! :)
Heck, I still have a stack of Portal of Atlantis sets, but I'd take those in trade. There are very, very few exceptions to the rule, but of course there are some.
For example, I'm not interested in used sets, I received several offers for those.
You understand 30% is the standard discount and big box retails negotiate larger discounts because the volume makes up for the margin? If you offer them to everyone at 50, Wal Mart is going to come with a we get it for 65% under RRP or you lose the shelf space. And they HAVE done that to companies.
How would you stop people from just buying and sitting on current set then? Or would you? If you wouldn't, couldnt that be construed as Lego simply helping to stock the secondary market?
Same reason they and Wal Mart and Target and anyone other large box store gets a larger discount.
And how would you enforce this?
I think that is reasonable for the most part. I think they are kind of doing that with the "retiring soon" tags. But I think it's also a fluid situation. As a business, if you plan to make 200000 red doodads and suspend production in 18 months, if you sell them fast, make a second run of 200000 and still see them selling well in 18 months, smart money is on continuing production. I think this is why FB is still here, it just sells too well to kill off. If you announce a retirement date it could bite you in the ass. Now if you wanted to mark sets on a sales list in a manner that says "This is your last chance to order this set" then that would be a little more reasonable IMO
Problem is a lot of the really large ones got large because they ignored rules to begin with. I think (read: opinion) you'd find keeping the local systems in line harder then you think Gov. Tarkin.
I actually think it could help some of my issues that most people dont agree with (the Clearance clearing by mass resellers for example) but there are other issues that will come up. As Cheshirecat said, how would you handle the ones who want to order only large quantities of what they consider winners but want nothing to do with say TLR or Chima.
Well, you just said not so long ago that items should be evaluated at their current worth, not how much they were bought for. So in the above example value-wise you get the better deal. Because the 16x Landspeeders' secondary market value is 400 USD, but the Death Star's isn't. As it's still widely available in retail it can regularly be had at some discount. Don't know whether -20% is realistic (it probably is with some patience) but I'm sure -10% is.
So you get the better value while your trade partner gets the convenience of getting rid of several of his smaller sets in one go for a somewhat lower value (-10-20%).
Really, there is just no pleasing some people.
You're just arguing to argue at this point.
DS does go on sale sometimes, but it isn't on sale today. Right now it will cost you $400 to get one, unless you can point to a current link, right now, where it is for sale for less.
And what does it matter whether DS is on sale at this very second unless it's an emergency and one needs it right now? Realities are that current, widely available sets can't really be sold at RRP by resellers only somewhat below and hence their secondary market value is lower than RRP. Basically that's what my reply was all about. I just wanted to point out that the worth of DS currently is not its RRP. Do you not agree with that?
When someone offers you 400 USD worth of retired sets for a DS I'm sure they don't think that they got 400 USD value for it but more like that it was an okay trade as though they could have gotten the DS for say 330 USD and sell the sets at 400 USD the convenience of getting rid of their sets at once was worth it.
I didn't say 50% off, I said 40%, leave the 50% to Walmart.
If they have to leave it at 30%, then have discount tiers. If I spend $100K, it is 33% off, 250K, 35% off, $1M, 38% off, 3M, 40% off, etc. (just example numbers) Of course I wouldn't try and stop them, that is really the whole point.
There are sets that I would sell at current retail if I was a ITD, there are others that I'd buy to hold for later.
The key is that I would get out of the shelf clearing business, that takes a lot of time and effort to do right. I'd much prefer to order directly from TLG. That is a conversation (and then some) unto itself...
One way is checks and balances, inventory tracking, business income tracking, etc. In return for a larger discount, some of my business information (including sales and income, what sold and when and for how much) can be shared back to TLG. Maybe... maybe not... it depends on what TLG's relationships with its retailers are...
Perhaps there could be a 6 month notice, no dates until TLG has decided that 6 months from X date, a set is going away.
So right now, there would be no date for Palace Cinema for example, it is too new. However, if FB really is going away this Christmas, by now I'm sure TLG knows this, they could announce it.
American Girl does this and it works well for them. What information do you have that makes you think this?
Two years ago my local LEGO store was happy for me to shelf clear on Black Friday, took every last Emerald Night and Imperial Flagship, there were no limits then. Clearance sales are not the same as taking all the Minecraft sets 2 weeks before Christmas.
After Christmas clearance sales are generally fair game because the stores WANT you to take it all. I have had the toy dept manager at Walmart bring me carts, help me load, and help bring it all out to the truck, she was ecstatic that I was making her life easier.
That is in no way, shape, or form, breaking the rules. :) you might not like it, but if the store dept manager actively helps me take it all, you can't say I'm doing anything wrong.
As for the "winners" and "losers" issue, it would be reasonable (and normal) to require ITDs to buy at least a little bit of everything, but the truth is some sets sell FAR better than others.
Keep in mind that orders need to be placed about 2-3 months in advance, and sets marked as retiring in 6 months need 4-5 months advance ordering, so TLG has plenty of time to make what is being order and not make what isn't being ordered.
After all, TLG itself has said they have the ability to change what they are producing in just 10 days, so 4 months notice should be plenty of time to produce to demand.
@Legofantexas's example of the re-release of CC and GG is partially tongue in check because he knows it will never happen. Lego can ill-afford to mess with the aftermarket as the aftermarket value is what is partially driving their record profits.
BUT, I resell for financial gain, that is the sole reason and I think any reseller who claims they provide a service are kidding themselves. The only way I justify some of my actions to myself is ' that I put the effort in ' Just being honest here.
I actually think you guys who do more of the trading provide a better and certainly a lot more ethical service .
As to being fair. @wrangler6915 It doesn't matter what you paid for a Lego set or ANY item. If I got an extra Lego set on my birthday or whenever, I got it free, correct? Does this mean I should trade you my set and get nothing in return because I paid nothing for it? Have you ever seen "Barter Kings"? If you haven't, then maybe you need to take a look because they never pay cash for anything. They take an item and advertise it and see if the person has something in value they can trade for. Example: They have a $500 fishing reel and eventually keep trading up until they get a $15,000 Horse Trailer or something like that. So, what you paid for an item has nothing to do with anything.
With the current economic situation here, a lot of people are bartering for items they want. If you have a you couch that you don't need and paid $500 for and you need a tent for a trip that is only worth $200. You would trade the couch for the tent.
The same can be said for garage sales. I had a guy that said he paid $100 for the box of Lego that he had for sale. I offered him $20. He got loud and I walked away.
And since Luke's Landspeeder was $12.50, how about we do at cost trading?
$289 / $12.50 works out to 23.2 copies of Luke's Landspeeder. Yes, I like that deal better. :)
From what I'm understanding you like to collect sealed sets that are in as NM condition as possible. What is your view on graded Lego sets? It seems to me that a collector such as yourself would benefit from sets sealed and graded like comic books are. I am not arguing or attacking you. You have shown me yet another aspect of Lego enthusiasm that I never knew of and I have learned MANY different aspects of Lego from Brickset, which is why I love it!
To try have a reasonable conversation with a re seller in my opinion is a waste of time, as they may have what your looking for and you are going to have to dam well pay it if you want it, or weigh up is it really worth what they say, who knows..
I dont think TLG should tell us when sets are going to be retired, just let the series run its course .
Still this debate will run and run,
Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power
Posting something that was in a private message onto the public forum is, at the very least, very tasteless...
I have flagged that for the admins, we'll see what they say. I almost never do that, but really, stuff that I sent you privately is not subject for public consumption. There is an expectation of privacy in something called a "private message" sent between two people.
Even if it isn't harmful in this case, it is not a habit that should be started and needs to be stopped.
That said, I don't think a tiered system is a bad idea, so I'm with you here.
You would, but I also really do believe you that you are a huge lego fan still. Problem is most large re-sellers are not. So the shelf clearing probably would not stop because they are going to go clear other items. And the chances of them going "Leave the lego, I have a direct account" is slim, because they will use your logic of "If I leave it, another re-seller will take it."
Yes, it really is, but I think in general it's worth looking at at it's basic level in terms of this line of thinking.
Now you are talking about having to have a staff to scan the secondary market looking for abnormalities. But even then, a smart re-seller will not make it obvious. If you buy 10 41999's for example after TLG tells you you can order 4 direct, you won't list 14 on your website or Amazon store if you are not a dope. You sell them on ebay under a second name. There is also no way to keep track local sales short of them reporting true numbers, but if they are willing to break the rules to earn more, what is there to make you think they won't doctor their books.
And those relationships dictate a lot of what TLG does. Small retailers and ITDs just get whats left.
We both agree there should be some warning of some type. Just the how is a little different. I wouldn't set a retirement date as much as "This is YOUR last chance to order sets X, Y and Z." But if Wal Mart says "we still want set X for next christmas, you are not looking bad for setting a false retirement date.
MOST (not all) large business get the way they are by aggressive business practices. Wal MArt is a great example, they were a solid retailer on par with K Mart until the 80's When the kids took over they started aggressive expansion and a business model built on destroying their competition. This grew the Super Wal-Mart concept that has taken over. They got a large enough market share that they can now bully distributors into what they want. In this case I am purely speculating on that logic.
And that's why I softened my opinion on the shelf clearing and as such have not used it as an argument. I PERSONALLY still think it's greedy, but it's not wrong by the rules set forth.
Completely agreed
Yep, you are right. I can question the ethics of it, but not the legality. And I will assume questioning the ethics is a debate that neither of us want to get into again. THAT is where opinions wouldn't change.
But would the requirement to purchase "loser" sets outweigh the ability to purchase winners directly? Or rather would the potential losses or overhead costs make the benefit of a direct account not worth it. Again, remember, if LEgo produces 50000 red doodads, and Wal-Mart orders 48000, TRU 10000 and small accounts 5000, The small accounts are the one's getting no red doodads. But they will get the 1000 purple and blue doodads that they just had to order. which brings me too...
True, but it costs money to change production, in terms of time and labor. So they try not to for the most part to keep costs down. I would assume their 10 day quote is an extreme situation. As we saw with the Minecraft thing there is still a delay.
Overall I agree that LEgo letting non B&M seller accounts to get set up could solve some of the issue, but I also think the fact they don;t allow lego re-sellers to set up accounts (IE they don;t want to be the sole product) is a pretty strong statement about where they put re-sellers on their hierarchy.
I do think this has been a solid discussion though.