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The Community Perspective on Reselling

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  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    Remember...shop smart. Shop S-Mart. Got that!!!???
  • FatMattFatMatt USMember Posts: 502
    Human civilization has always had some means of bartering, exchanging of goods so people could to continue to thrive. Why not make the farmer sell his crop for the same amount he paid for the seed. (A little extreme I know, but the principle applies.)
  • FatMattFatMatt USMember Posts: 502
    ^Oh wait, the government owns half the farms now through bailouts.
  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843
    edited December 2012
    ^ From the Resellomicon, the fabled book of the Lego zo.bies, bound in poor childrens' skin.

    Or was it the Necronomilego, the fabled set of the dead, with bricks made of human bones?
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    edited December 2012
    Depends what you mean by Human Civilization, for a very long time we were just self sufficient in family groups, indeed it was for far longer than we have had profit. Sure, you could argue advancement, but I do wonder, if you stand back and look at our world now, take a minute to stop in your city and look at the thousands dashing into work every morning, dashing home every night, and doing the same thing 200 times a year.

    We've been sold the idea for so long that its all good, we just assume its right. Just like we've been sold the idea that carbs should make up a significant portion of our diet when theres literally no scientific fact to back it up - nor that we should count callories, nor that we should exercise more and eat less to loose weight.

    But i digress, although this is the one thread where being off topic has to be a good thing...surely?

    I'm not quite as nutty as that makes me sound, i have neither a beard nor any hemp clothing and nor do I wear sandles and socks together.
    Brickarmor
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,444
    klaatu barada nikto!!! Are they in that new Desert Skiff set?
  • FatMattFatMatt USMember Posts: 502
    Where did those family groups get there livestock and other resources that were not provided to them by nature?
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    ^Funny, because the world went around long before we had profit, but hey ho. Lets not let reality spoil ones misconceptions.

    Actually, the world has always had profit... Before money, we had trading and barter systems...

    It has never been "free". The whole idea is to "profit" off your labor, or knowledge, or skills.

    If you can't, then you didn't survive.
  • y2joshy2josh Member Posts: 2,002
    Pitfall69 said:

    klaatu barada nikto!!! Are they in that new Desert Skiff set?

    Come on. Everyone knows Klaatu was on the barge and Barada was on the second skiff.

    And I thought you were a fan...
  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843
    The world without profit also had not, for example, Lego. Don't think this is coincidence.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    Depends what you mean by Human Civilization, for a very long time we were just self sufficient in family groups, indeed it was for far longer than we have had profit. Sure, you could argue advancement, but I do wonder, if you stand back and look at our world now, take a minute to stop in your city and look at the thousands dashing into work every morning, dashing home every night, and doing the same thing 200 times a year.

    We've been sold the idea for so long that its all good, we just assume its right. Just like we've been sold the idea that carbs should make up a significant portion of our diet when theres literally no scientific fact to back it up - nor that we should count callories, nor that we should exercise more and eat less to loose weight.

    But i digress, although this is the one thread where being off topic has to be a good thing...surely?

    I'm not quite as nutty as that makes me sound, i have neither a beard nor any hemp clothing and nor do I wear sandles and socks together.

    I actually agree with you on this, more than you think...

    Most people do it because they have been trained to do it, we all pay our bills, go to work, etc. because, well, that is what we're "supposed to do", right?

    That being said, if I had a plot of land and was completely left alone, I lack the skills required to grow my own food and make sure the well water didn't make me sick. I also happen to enjoy reading books, building LEGO, and playing computer games.

    I have a nice warm house, power, running water, and a flushing toilet. The cost of that is modern civilization.

    Androids (robots that look and function like we do) will change that, I don't know what the future holds and how we'll count "money, profit, barter", but at some point we'll have machines doing everything, making everything, and even making more machines. The computer just created a whole new industry of computer techs, but at some point androids will be able to do even that.

    Completely automated factories will put all the major job catagories out of work. Then what?

    We will have to have a basic human conversation as a whole as to what type of civilization we want to have. As jobs go away and don't come back, how do you make sure everyone has enough food? If the machines are making it, then what?

    These are big questions that have no simple answers.

    And no, I don't have a beard of hemp clothing either! :)

    But as long as I have to pay my bills, I'm movidated by profit, and I have no problem with that.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,759
    It'll be good when the robots can go out and collect my lego bargains for me. So long as they don't want to build it too.
    forumreader
  • gmpirategmpirate Member Posts: 1,654
    Ok, I'm really confused. We have to work or we don't? It was my impression that as long as we didn't own any assets we didn't have to. It just comes down to personal choice.
  • BrickbaseBrickbase Member Posts: 100
    Profit leads to investment, investment leads to progress, progress leads to profit.

  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    Brickbase said:

    Profit leads to investment, investment leads to progress, progress leads to profit.

    Ahh, the great circle of life...
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    edited December 2012
    I can answer the original question, in part, reasonably easily. The world is generally getting poorer, or at least it has done over the last 3-4 years with the banking crisis and huge crisis in the Euro zone. In times of austerity, you tend to get a move more towards left wing and socialist views to profit etc. I am almost certain there would be less resentment during the boom of the early 2000s. I am not a reseller, its just my honest view.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    That is a fair point...

    The next question becomes, why do people get angry when someone else is successful? Why do we not celebrate that?

    It seems like people only want success for themselves, this is very selfish.

    I am thrilled when other people do well, it raises us all up. After all, a rising tide lifts all boats, large and small.
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    ^ I couldn't agree with you more. Successful people and companies create jobs, innovate and pay more tax, but there are many people who resent 'profit'.
  • BanditBandit Member Posts: 890
    Jealousy is an inherent trait of man. Just comes down to basic instinct.
  • BrickbaseBrickbase Member Posts: 100
    Well I work in the primary sector, the Euro crisis has also hit us. We have to sell our products under costs. Due to cheaper producing countries with lower wages. We have the high quality product, but in the end it's the consumer who decides what he/she wants to pay for a product. What is it worth in their eyes. In times of financial crisis and insecurity? Not so much, I'm afraid.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,759
    edited December 2012
    richo said:

    I can answer the original question, in part, reasonably easily. The world is generally getting poorer, or at least it has done over the last 3-4 years with the banking crisis and huge crisis in the Euro zone.

    Is the world actually poorer, or is it just perception? We used to perceive ourselves as rich, now we perceive ourselves as having lost money due to stock market drops, banking crisis, etc. Certainly people that have lost jobs are worse off. But is the world actually poorer? What we used to have we still have, we just put different numbers on it and so have a different perception.
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    edited December 2012
    @CCC

    Yes, without question (using standard economic metrics like cost of living vs income growth & national measures such sovereign debt as % of GDP). The UK is poorer than 5 years ago, as are most European countries, as are most South American countries. and I don't need my degree in economics & business studies to tell you this. :-D
  • monkeyhangermonkeyhanger Member Posts: 3,012
    I think most people are poorer than they were 5 years ago if they haven't had a significant positive job change. Cost of goods has outstripped wage rises. Personally I haven't had a pay rise that has met official inflation rate in the UK for 4 years, excluding a promotion and the grade change that came with it. Even the simplest things have shot up in price, but we have this "bargain" mentality now. Can anyone honestly say that the average non-promotional selling price of a can of Heinz beans in the UK supermarkets isn't ridiculous as it has almost doubled in 3 years? They get around these huge price hikes by offering 3 for 2 or 2 for 1 for a while so you won't notice. TLG's price rises seem positively conservative.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    ^ Where did all the money go then?

    Since we have fiat currency and since they are printing billions more every year, we should all have more money ever year, not less.

    Is it all sitting in mattresses? China? Secret bank accounts? Are they building arks for Dec 21st with it?

    As a collective society, the money doesn't float off into space, so only our perceptions can be poorer, since we can print all the money we like.
  • monkeyhangermonkeyhanger Member Posts: 3,012
    I do find it strange that some of the more vocal reseller haters (ok, hate is maybe a bit strong) are also the ones who pile in for vast quantities of promotional polybags from the sun, double dip on the vouchers at WHS and then barter them for many things, including non-lego items. Free items that require very little financial input (just buying a paper) it seems are exempt from their moral high ground stance on reselling items that actually need to be paid for by the reseller (in whatever volume) taking a punt on a perceived deal.
    DadLegoFanTexas
  • SherlockbonesSherlockbones Member Posts: 411
    I don't mind it at all, although sometimes even if you can still get the set, they charge extra, anyway I just buy to collect and build, if I had the money perhaps I would do the same thing
  • DadDad UKMember Posts: 816

    ^Funny, because the world went around long before we had profit, but hey ho. Lets not let reality spoil ones misconceptions. Thats not to say the world isnt better now than then mind, at least for some of us...

    As was said some way up there are good resellers and bad resellers. There are those that provide a genuine service - from what is said above @Brickbase is one and those that hang on to end of line products for a long time would be too. But there are also those that just buy up huge amounts of Minecraft to sell at inflated prices, not to provide any kind of service but to make money out of other people in the run up to Christmas. Sure, its business but its perfectly reasonable not to like it, or by definition them.

    Those that hang on to end of line products for a long time are only hoping to provide one service. And that is to maximise their profits for self gain.
    And I for one have absolutely no issue with that. But do you really believe they are providing a genuine service for others?

  • BanditBandit Member Posts: 890
    Of course they are. How else would people be able to buy old sets otherwise?
  • DadDad UKMember Posts: 816
    Ok, I see your point. But when they are stacking the sets to hold for a long time what is their reasoning. Hey, I know what I'll do, I'll hold on to these for x amount of time so I can provide a genuine service to others OR I'll hold on to these for x amount of time in the hope I maximise my profits. That's my point.
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    this debate often depends on how far you are in to neo-liberal centre right economics and the capitalist model vs left wing socialist market views.
    LegoFanTexas
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    People get mad that someone buys a set and sells it for more than THEY think its worth. What do people expect buy a set for 100 dollars and sell it for 10?
    LegoFanTexas
  • BrickarmorBrickarmor USAMember Posts: 1,257
    Profit is created through largely symbolic arrangements between humans (and matter, nature, raw material, whatever) hence an effect rather than a cause. The production and distribution of necessities--food, clothing, shelter--could be accomplished without it. Only by warping the definition of profit (the farmer "profits" from seeds) does it appear causal in a metaphorical way, rather than the literal sense in which Walmart and Apple "profit" from modern slave labor.

    We really don't need to debate this, but I can see how it is germane to the issue of one's attitude toward reselling. Profit exists as an economic category today but has not always and a future is certainly (albeit distantly) imaginable without it. If I had to make the decision in an absurd hypothetical situation--which do you want: profit and LEGO or global justice and equality?--it would be simple. That it will never come to that is totally beside the point, as is much of this topic. Some folks are just diehard capitalists, many others are not; the latter group, however, has little to bind them together except the conviction that there's more to life than profit, daresay even that profit is inimical to life.

    I truly don't want to argue, just give voice to a different perspective. Besides, I've got a ton of orders to pack.
    pharmjod
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409

    The production and distribution of necessities--food, clothing, shelter--could be accomplished without it.

    Yes, they could, if machines did all the work.

    The minute you ask a human being with free will to do it, you have to give them something in return.

    That something... is profit... without it, a human being will not choose to do something they don't wish to do...

    Consider the people who pickup the garbage... Most of them actually are pretty well paid, because otherwise no one would do it. Profit is the only reason to take that job.

    If I had to make the decision in an absurd hypothetical situation--which do you want: profit and LEGO or global justice and equality?--it would be simple.

    Unless you remove free will and change the nature of humans, you'll never have global justice and equality.

    The fact of the matter is this... there is theory, then there is reality. The reality of real life is that you have some humans who want to work hard and others who do not. I would agree that in theory, if everyone would just work together, you could have global justice and equality. But since you can't actually do that with free thinking people, it is a fantasy.

    You need only look at all the ongoing wars in the world to see this.
    mressin
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    I agree we dont' want politics to come in to Lego discussion, but on this one it is I guess relevant as politics often reflects society and vice versa.

    Anyway, in terms of capitalism and socialist approaches to the economy....If I could attempt to be impartial, there are obvious flaws with each model (as we have seen in the last few years and decades). Having said that, if you take extremes of each model, lets say Thatchers neo-liberal market model of Britain vs the sort of far left economic policies Eastern Europe were getting at the same time, then, well its your own view what you fancy, but in a democratic system, you only had to see what people wanted.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    richo said:

    I agree we dont' want politics to come in to Lego discussion, but on this one it is I guess relevant as politics often reflects society and vice versa.

    Allow me to say for the record that I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions and points of view. I am freely stating mine as I see it, but I do not expect everyone to agree with me.

    Healthy discussion is the only solution. One of the problems in our world today is both sides just yell at each other without actually having a real discussion of the issues.
    richo said:

    Anyway, in terms of capitalism and socialist approaches to the economy....If I could attempt to be impartial, there are obvious flaws with each model (as we have seen in the last few years and decades). Having said that, if you take extremes of each model, lets say Thatchers neo-liberal market model of Britain vs the sort of far left economic policies Eastern Europe were getting at the same time, then, well its your own view what you fancy, but in a democratic system, you only had to see what people wanted.

    I agree completely that extremes on either end make no sense.

    Pure capitalism without government regulation only ends one way... slavery of the lower class and hoarding of wealth among the elite, held by control of policy and military forces.

    Pure socialism without any profit motive only ends one way... a completely unproductive socity where no one has any incentive to work or actually create anything, always just sitting around waiting for the next government check.

    Somewhere in the middle, happiness and truth can probably be found. :)
    Sharifa
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    Politics and lego two things that rarely come up in the same discussion. Politics lego and religion are the new three things you don't talk about.
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    edited December 2012
    There is quite a chunk of people who actually are very anti what Thatcher did in the 80s in the UK in terms of the ultimate free market approach. What I can never get my head round, is that we have a democratic voting system, and at the end of the day, she won 3 consecutive thumping majorities, so there was the mandate...
    For the record, GDP went up 23.3% during her period in office, a figure I find hard to believe that a socialist Govt would have achieved.

    where were we with lego..lol
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    From lego to politics what has the world come to. Lol
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,830
    edited December 2012
    ^ I think we were trying to explain the roots of anger/resentment against reselling, but yes its probably too off topic now, and lego and politics don't mix, unless of course you are talking about the recent Town Hall, where perhaps local politics might take place. :-D
  • mressinmressin Lego City... erm LondonMember Posts: 843
    tmgm528 said:

    From lego to politics what has the world come to. Lol

    Smart people understand the way the world works. Smart people play with Lego. Not sure why one would be surprised. ;)

  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    What brings republicans and democrats together? Not healthcare, reforms or taxes. LEGO!
  • jdylakjdylak Member Posts: 281

    I'll put in my 2 cent.

    Lego are already expensive, and certainly overprice at MSRP. I don't really buy Lego unless they are at least 40% off though there are exception if it a set I really want then I can go for 25% off. Why would I pay 2 times or more as much as MSRP? To Sum it up, Lego at MSRP are overprice, Lego at re-sellers price is a ripoff!

    However in my opinion, re-selling of any kind and not just Lego is just bad. There really nothing good that come out of it. You may say that your doing a benefit to the Lego community by selling items that is no longer available but every time I see those ridiculous price on Amazon, I clearly see the real motive behind it.

    While there are better re-sellers than other, the end goal is profit at other people expenses. And I question someone moral and values when they try to cheat others.

    Talk to me after you sell your first house. You expect me to believe that you will take the same price that you paid 5 / 10 years earlier on it? It's called appreciation, and some things appreciate the older they get and some tend to become more valuable than others. It's the nature of the beast...

    I'd LOVE to get what we paid for our house even two years ago. Values have dropped so bad around here it isn't even funny. Heck, a frclosed house two houses down sold for $25,000 dropping our value by $5000. That's just one house.
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    /\ yes, just ONE house.
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    *Pokes head in*

    *Plants little "Lego Resellers promote puppy drowning" Flag*

    *Leaves*
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    /\ * pokes head in*. * pvancil27 reseller hater promotes burning an animal shelter*
    Point made
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    If you are an investor and pay 20 usd for stock and 5 years later its worth 5 usd. Hmmm would you take it or wait for it to get to 21 or higher usd. Same with a lego reseller. I am a lego reseller and proud to be one!
  • pvancil27pvancil27 Member Posts: 588
    Na, I like animals, it's people I tend to dislike.

    For anyone who didnt catch it though, my previous post was dripping in sarcasm. We all know my stance well and we all know it wont change and nothing I say will change others.
  • BrickarmorBrickarmor USAMember Posts: 1,257
    @LegoFanTexas There is truly no such thing as "human nature," only humans and history. The "something" that people want (and deserve) for their labor is not profit but the product of their labor to use how they wish, for themselves or for others. Yes, I'm a utopian but I'm also a realist who recognizes the insuperable differences between utopia, reality, and history. Countless injustices were "facts" of their day and the perpetrators pointed to "reality" to justify their actions. Doesn't make it right, doesn't mean any of us will ever see it change, doesn't mean we should accept it.
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    It seems to be people who I tend to dislike as well.
  • lulwutlulwut Member Posts: 417
    edited December 2012
    Dad said:

    Ok, I see your point. But when they are stacking the sets to hold for a long time what is their reasoning. Hey, I know what I'll do, I'll hold on to these for x amount of time so I can provide a genuine service to others OR I'll hold on to these for x amount of time in the hope I maximise my profits. That's my point.

    What are you trying to debate? The whole reselling scheme is profit driven. Are you expecting people to selflessly hold onto them and sell at cost?


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