Discounts on LEGO Exclusives

Goldfreek

ColoradoBricks said:

Goldfreek said:

ColoradoBricks said:

@tensor, most of those were part of the TRU BOGO, so I think coupon will be OK. I will use my 10% coupon on #42009 on 10/1, I'll let you know.
.../...

I tried it already on #42009 and was shown the list it was on. They had a second list that added to the first. So you will probably be told no like I was. So I got it from TRU with the friends and family 25% off with their card online for $180+ tax. Just got it yesterday. They actually packed it well and had no damage.

I was able to use the 10% coupon the #42009 without issue today. I am glad it worked on at least one set of my wish list...

That is great. I was at my store yesterday and took another look at the lists as I had 2 10% coupons I was trying to use and it was very difficult to find any sets there that I could not get for less elsewhere or on clearance at some point in the future. they even had some of the small technic like the monster truck on the list. So it looks like you got lucky and that is better then anything else.

Xefan

The problem isn't setting a price on your product, it's telling others what to set it at.

Retailers should be free to charge what they want, and if TLG doesn't like that they can just not supply them.

Say a retailer buys a bunch of Sydney Opera houses off of Lego and finds after a year it can't shift them because it's too expensive for people at the price Lego wants, the retailer should have the right to discount them to get shot and free up their storage space.

It's not setting their wholesale prices anyone takes issue with, it's not even setting recommend prices, and it's not even deciding who they do and don't supply. It's telling other retailers what they must charge that's the problem- if retailers are allowed to buy stock at a specific wholesale rate it should then be up to them what margins they want to make on that.

IIRC Apple did already get in trouble for this in one instance because a retailer did want to get rid of all their old model iPhones at a lower discounted rate than Apple allowed and not have them sat around now the new one was out which is the one that made more profit relative to the storage and display space it took.

Effectively it's like with consumers, once a retailer has sold you something they should have no say as to what you do with it or how much you sell it on for. Similarly wholesalers once they've sold something should have no say what the retailers sell it on for.

But for what it's worth I suspect Lego is saying to retailers "We'll supply you if you sell at this price" and the retailers are saying okay to that because they'd rather do that that not have it supplied at all. This doesn't mean that if retailers do find a product sticks around too long that they wont still discount it if it becomes a problem- it just means they're playing ball right now with Lego because there's no issue with them doing so currently. I guarantee though if this hurts other retailers they'll be the first to tell Lego to do one.

Certainly TLG would have no leg to stand on if a retailer did decide to discount, Lego would have no legal recourse to enforce that. It all depends on how it works or doesn't work out for the retailers though.

cheshirecat

Manufacturers =/= wholesaler. I also wouldn't be surprised if as part of this LEGO will allow the shops to buy stock on sale or return.

CCC

Xefan said:

Certainly TLG would have no leg to stand on if a retailer did decide to discount, Lego would have no legal recourse to enforce that. It all depends on how it works or doesn't work out for the retailers though.

I would imagine any legal recourse would depend on what was written in the contract between lego and the supplier.

Xefan

cheshirecat said:

Manufacturers =/= wholesaler. I also wouldn't be surprised if as part of this LEGO will allow the shops to buy stock on sale or return.

A wholesaler is just someone who sells to retail in bulk. If you're saying Lego isn't a wholesaler as well as a manufacturer then I'd love to know how the hell you manage to figure that. They run the full operation.

It doesn't matter that Lego manufactures the product. They still have a wholesale division for distribution to retailers, in fact, that's precisely what some resellers have been told to buy from rather than [email protected] The fact they manufacture has no relevance or causes no difference to the wholesale rules they must follow when selling wholesale.

CCC said:

I would imagine any legal recourse would depend on what was written in the contract between lego and the supplier.

I don't think even that would matter as I can't see how it would really be enforceable given that at least in some states it's arguably not even legal in the first place. A retailer would almost certainly win a case of claiming unfair contract terms in not being able to set pricing on products they've bought at wholesale.

cheshirecat

The expectations of a manufacturer<->retailer relationship are different from those of a wholesaler<->retailer relationship. Whilst logically they do much the same the nuances are very different, the same is true for the manufacturer<->retailer and manufacturer<->wholesaler relationship. But anyway, never mind.

I agree I doubt there would be much legal recourse for LEGO if a retailer decided to underprice, but they would just cease delivery of that set/all exclusives to the retailer.

A sale or return agreement would make all this much more sensible. Not sure if LEGO would as it opens them up to a sizeable risk; but then if their new approach is, as some have suggested, to leave product available at [email protected] for much longer than its available on the shelves perhaps its not so bad? Certainly it makes it very nice for the retailers - they maximise their profit on those sets knowing they won't be undersold at any other retailer and knowing that they have no risk from unsold stock as it can just be sent back to LEGO.

CCC

Xefan said:

I don't think even that would matter as I can't see how it would really be enforceable given that at least in some states it's arguably not even legal in the first place. A retailer would almost certainly win a case of claiming unfair contract terms in not being able to set pricing on products they've bought at wholesale.

It depends what is written in the contract as to whether it is fair. If there is a sale or return clause, then setting a minimum price is entirely fair, since the retailer would never be stuck with unsold stock.

Basta

cheshirecat said:

I agree I doubt there would be much legal recourse for LEGO if a retailer decided to underprice, but they would just cease delivery of that set/all exclusives to the retailer.

The problem with this is that Lego can't/won't/shouldn't cease delivery to the majour retail players like Walmart/Amazon/Target etc so these stores have no reason to comply. But as they apear to be, you have to wonder what they are getting out of it? I'm sure it's not just a nice warm and fuzzy feeling.

Farmer_John

A single data point for TLG:

As someone who regularly purchases both small and large Lego sets, I ALWAYS look for discounts of some sort. The 10% off coupon negated the 10% tax we have where I live, so I can seldom purchase a Lego set for less than RRP anyway. In the past, I could justify a purchase based on a discount. Take that way and I will more often than not just take a pass. This just seems like a bad time in the economy to play games trying to sell an expensive toy...pardon the pun.

cheshirecat

We effectively have 20% sales tax so perhaps we should get 20% discounts? Of course not. If a 10% discount makes the all important difference then I'm surprised @LFT isn't saying you shouldn't be buying them at all...

What you spend your money on is your business but Im sure Lego are aware that a very small percentage of buyers require the 10% off to make the sale.

doriansdad

Xefan said:

I don't think even that would matter as I can't see how it would really be enforceable given that at least in some states it's arguably not even legal in the first place. A retailer would almost certainly win a case of claiming unfair contract terms in not being able to set pricing on products they've bought at wholesale.

It is perfectly legal for a supplier to have a contract with a retailer stating at what price the retailer can sell the product. None of us have any idea what the contract is between TLG and its retailers. All I know is it is quite obvious there is some agreement, written or otherwsie, not to discount the expensive exclusives in the USA anymore. It is easy to conclude this is an effort to curb the hoarding and reselling of the few good sets TLG produces each year by resellers. Ultimately this will increase the aftermarket price for these sets and will only further encourage reselling IMO.

Dougout

Lego doesn't come to the table hammering an iron fist, it doesn't have enough influence to do so. What it does have is incentives for the participating retailers, 90% of which is most likely promised in the form of higher profit. Retailers could very well be moving sets at more consistent rates now that there is no big deals that shift major volume at once. Due to this, it would be easy for retailers to order more adequate levels of stock that won't leave overstock. Therefore, retailers are not left with excess stock that they need to ship back to Lego and inevitably lose money on.

JeffH

Dougout said:

Lego doesn't come to the table hammering an iron fist, it doesn't have enough influence to do so. What it does have is incentives for the participating retailers, 90% of which is most likely promised in the form of higher profit. Retailers could very well be moving sets at more consistent rates now that there is no big deals that shift major volume at once. Due to this, it would be easy for retailers to order more adequate levels of stock that won't leave overstock. Therefore, retailers are not left with excess stock that they need to ship back to Lego and inevitably lose money on.

They do actually. I was told that Amazon was sanctioned this year on 4 separate items selling too low. The punishment was 6 months of resupply blockage for those 4 sets. I think this definitely got the retailer's attention. I am wondering however, how much patient Walmart is going to have on this policy as it does not tolerate goods sitting on shelves lightly.

dougts

Curious what the four sets were

graphite

JeffH said:

I am wondering however, how much patient Walmart is going to have on this policy as it does not tolerate goods sitting on shelves lightly.

Walmart doesn't really tolerate much at all. If LEGO tried this with them I could see them coming back and just saying they aren't carrying LEGO anymore and clearance everything off their shelves or send it back. After a few months I'm sure LEGO would feel the hurt and change their tune.

Bumblepants

^^Probably Haunted House and Arkham for two. Those got goofy low discounts briefly, sold out, and it was a long while before they had them back in stock again. There was a thread on here back when it happened. Maybe it was April or May of this year?

ColoradoBricks

^ May 30th, #10228 Haunted House was at $134.01, #10137 Arkham Asylum at $119.68

LegoFanTexas

graphite said:

Walmart doesn't really tolerate much at all. If LEGO tried this with them I could see them coming back and just saying they aren't carrying LEGO anymore and clearance everything off their shelves or send it back. After a few months I'm sure LEGO would feel the hurt and change their tune.

No, they don't... I posted at length about this awhile back in this thread.

Walmart dictates terms to suppliers, not the other way around. This is very well documented. Walmart pays on-time, it is one of the few nice things about doing business with them, otherwise they are ruthless.

It is quite possible that because the "restricted" sets are more or less all "online" for Walmart, they don't care so much. The stuff in the stores, they are free to price as they like, so the online stock such as DS, FB, etc. might not be all that important.

If LEGO came in and tried to price fix everything, that I'm quite sure wouldn't work, at least with Walmart.

jasor

^ I live in Walmart country...many of the stores around me are "pilot" stores, trying out live experiments on local consumers. Anyway, at two of the prominent stores around here, these Walmarts have expanded their Hasbro constructibles sections, and endcapped their aisles with new Transformer "constraction" like products.

You dont really tell the largest retailer in the world you'll cut off their supply. It'll be on to the next one.

fizicyst

I know we have pointed out the legal aspects of vertical "price fixing", but I wonder whether there are legal ramifications of the fact that lego also has retail stores and is therefore also a competitor. So, forcing people to sell at a price that is not lower than the one you are offering in your store might be a difficult sell in the court system. They might not see that as purely vertical.

abenamou

ColoradoBricks said:

^ May 30th, #10228 Haunted House was at $134.01, #10137 Arkham Asylum at $119.68

Maybe the 10225 (R2-D2)? Lowest was $139 and they haven't restocked this in some time.

LegoFanTexas

^ No, you don't...

I posted this a few pages back... If Walmart went to Hasbro and said, "hey, want to create an entire product line of building toys, you can have LEGO's shelf space if you do"...

Any chance they'd say yes? :)

jasor

^ It'll be interesting to see. I used my 10% coupon on a Friend's set my little girl wanted. What a shame. Before this came about, I was poised to grab a modular.
Also, I liked that 1.49 in savings on a 10% tax with double vip points. Just that alone was effectively 21% off a modular.

Wonder how it'll pan out with Double ViP going on right now.

Dougout

I wouldn't mind Walmart receding back to Walmart country, they expanded to New England in 1996 and were fairly big by early the 2000s. If Lego leaves they don't really have any quality toys left. I mean it's hard to deny Legos appeal at this point. Walmart has its own problems ahead with the economy, moving stock and paying their employees. China is going to start cutting back on exports pretty heavily and Walmart takes 10% of what they give the US.

It is hard to sustain the type of growth Walmart has shown and they have been struggling to grow in the US. They don't have anywhere else to expand and when a company fails to grow it scares the investors and can cause many problems. Americans have enjoyed the low price benefits at the expense of job exportation and its time to pay the piper. Jobs must be created in the US and it is not going to be from Walmart. They can't pay their workers a living wage already and regularly suggest employees sign up for walfare. Then there's those bribery and discrimination allegations and all the other bad stuff associated with the world's number one retailer. No thanks, I'll invest somewhere else.

Farmer_John

^This!

@cheshirecat - Perhaps you are correct on smaller sets in general (not in my case though), but I choose to disagree with you on the larger sets. Have you ever noticed how much (at least in the States) people look forward to Black Friday sales? The discussion boards light up more than a month ahead of time and continue on after the sale is complete. People want to purchase their expensive toys on sale...and Lego is a very expensive toy! If TLG was aware that a "very small percentage" want coupons, then why would they bother getting rid of them? Seems like a waste of time...unless they're trying to increase their margin on the larger sets.

Furthermore, my post was a "single data point" for lego, and apparently I'm not the only one with the sentiment of wanting less than RRP on big sets (see the post by @jasor above). Just saying...

BrickDancer

^At this point in terms of the Lego realm, Walmart (along with Target and Amazon) is one of the good guys we can depend on so long as TLG doesn't hold a knife to their throat on the discounts. I don't shop there for regular goods due to various reasons, but if they withdraw then it gets worse for us all on the ABS front.

Dougout

Not if people start shopping elsewhere for their Lego needs. I guess if you believe people that go to Walmart just happen to buy Lego rather than people that buy Lego go to Walmart because they know they sell Lego, sometimes at a discount, than I could see one thinking Walmart is solely more important in a symbiotic relationship.

However, I can at least attest that my local Walmart superstore has indeed expanded their Lego aisle rather than shrinking it. That leads me to believe Walmart wants more money and believes it will get more by expanding their Lego rather than attempting a pointless crusade in promoting a Hasbro product.

What would they expand.....

Barbie? Kreo? Lincoln Logs? GI-Joe? Lite-Brite? Sesame Street? Mr. Potatoe Head? Play-doh? Tinkertoys? Pokemon? NERF? Transformers? Magic cards? Battlship? Board games? Bop it?

None of those are relevant, I can't recall seeing an advertisement for any of them save for maybe Nerf or Barbie. They are more niche products to hit niche markets that aren't really that big but not bad when combined. It has to run nearly 10 subsidiary companies with more than 50 products to compete with Lego's number one selling product.

Lego sells just Lego and it has the number one toy company sweating.

What other toy do kids never throw away and save for ages? What other toy do kids play with for years and years until they grow older into adults and then still continue to buy? What other toy is like Lego?

Honestly, it's a phenomenon

Dougout

Hasbro just bought Magic the Gathering like a year or two ago and as it turns out that's their number one profitable theme. I have to think it has to do with the longevity of it's appeal, teenagers start playing it and then never stop. That's much better than trying to get a million kids to want the newest toy that will remain popular for a couple weeks.

LegoFanTexas

^^ All true...

What if Hasbro figures all that out and decides that KREO can be as big as LEGO, they just have to invest a billion dollars in product development and set design?

If they ask China to make quality, China can do it, they just have to be paid for it.

Now they just need quality set designs, and a lot more than a few licensed themes, they need City, Creator, and brick buckets, among other things.

It could be done, the question is, do they want to?

TheLoneTensor

JeffH said:

Dougout said:

Lego doesn't come to the table hammering an iron fist, it doesn't have enough influence to do so. What it does have is incentives for the participating retailers, 90% of which is most likely promised in the form of higher profit. Retailers could very well be moving sets at more consistent rates now that there is no big deals that shift major volume at once. Due to this, it would be easy for retailers to order more adequate levels of stock that won't leave overstock. Therefore, retailers are not left with excess stock that they need to ship back to Lego and inevitably lose money on.

They do actually. I was told that Amazon was sanctioned this year on 4 separate items selling too low. The punishment was 6 months of resupply blockage for those 4 sets. I think this definitely got the retailer's attention. I am wondering however, how much patient Walmart is going to have on this policy as it does not tolerate goods sitting on shelves lightly.

You were told huh?

LegoFanTexas

^ I believe it... there were several large sets that Amazon was strangely out of stock all summer long on.

oldtodd33

Dougout said:

What would they expand.....
Barbie? Kreo? Lincoln Logs? GI-Joe? Lite-Brite? Sesame Street? Mr. Potatoe Head? Play-doh? Tinkertoys? Pokemon? NERF? Transformers? Magic cards? Battlship? Board games? Bop it?

@Dougout Actually, video games come to mind, Pokemon is on it's way out for stuffed animals and so forth, but my kids still like to get each new version when they come out. Lego's stance on the large sets has me leaning the video game route this year. So instead of Lego under the tree this year, it will be a new Wii U. That I will buy, now that they have dropped the price to $300.00.

As far as other toys go, Nerf seems to be doing pretty well and if you look at their advertising, the actors in the commercials are of the late teenage years and not little children. So maybe they are going after an older audience. I don't know about anyone else, but I do like a good game of Battleship or Risk:)

Basta

^^ I don't know, I'd still be surprised if they did actually get "sanctioned", but what do I know. What sets are we talking about that were out of stock and were they out of stock elsewhere?

That said it does seem like ages since an exclusive set has been discounted at amazon.com. The SSD is sitting their at $399.95 not budging, I have been waiting to see it at $320 or less, but at this stage it seems unlikely.

They still let me add 999 to my cart so I think Amazon will be selling these for the next 100 years if they never get discounted :P

BrickDancer

You know its bad when you click the "Discounted sets on Amazon" button on the Home Page and not a single set pops up.

JP3804

@Dougout
Strange,two of the four Walmart superstores by me cut their lego aisles in half after the last rest.
They are filled with Kreo now.
I'll have to check the others.
Maybe their experimenting.

Farmer_John

Actually, I'm think of nice new bicycles for the kids. They do like their Christmas Lego sets, but I am confident they will like upgraded bikes just as much. I can use the 10% off coupons to purchase each of them a small set as a "tip of the hat" to their Lego addiction, but the lions share can go towards a new set of wheels. Plus, it gets them out of the house and exercising (instead of fighting over who owns which minifigure). :-)

Bumblepants

I have noticed that while Target.com and Amazon now both carry Orthanc and the new UCS X-Wing, Walmart.com lists neither. Perhaps they have chosen not to add them to their inventory because of the discount restrictions? (Other option being that Walmart just sucks at updating their website which doesn't stretch the imagination at all).

cheshirecat

Would I be right in thinking that kreo would be a better fit/price point for Wal-Mart customers anyway, especially compared to big box Lego sets/exclusives.?

Also slightly related how many of you who go there to grab stuff when on amazing deals also buy other stuff not discounted at the same time?

It may not be the best comparison but on the occasions I've gone to ASDA to do well from a big reduction I've never thought while I'm here I'll do the weekly shop and spend £100 on food. I grab the Lego and walk out. It can't be good business selling stock cheap and not getting any fringe benefit and these deals don't seem to last long enough for many 'normal' shoppers to benefit. It's not that I hate ASDA or think I'm too posh for it, just that the two aren't linked and the deals not regular enough to make me change my shopping habbits.

LegoFanTexas

^ Walmart has built an empire on being known for having the lowest prices.

Note that I said, "known for", that doesn't mean they do.

On common items that people tend to remember the prices on, they are indeed usually the lowest price. The stuff in the big stacks in the middle of the isles, usually rock bottom prices.

But they sell a ton of stuff that actually isn't all that cheap, because once people mentally decide they are cheap, they stop comparing.

Much better LEGO deals can usually be had from Amazon than Walmart, but I'm willing to bet Walmart moves a huge amount of LEGO, mostly the $50 and under sets, but that is a lot of volume.

Most of the time, LEGO is full RRP at Walmart, while Amazon tends to always have stuff on sale.

binaryeye

BrickDancer said:

You know its bad when you click the "Discounted sets on Amazon" button on the Home Page and not a single set pops up.

It sounds like you need to disable the "show prices that have fallen" option. I see 30 sets at 25% off or better.

Farmer_John

If I had to rank the order of companies I purchase Lego sets from, it would be as follows:

1) Amazon (by far)
2) Lego.com or B&M Store
3) eBay (individuals)
4) Wal-Mart
5) BrickLink
6) Kids Scandinavian Shop (used to have great prices...not so much anymore)
7) Target
8) ToysRUs
9) YoYo.com

I didn't necessarily want to start another thread and thought a list like this would fit nicely into this thread...since the justification for my list's order IS the discounts. I am definitely expecting a change in the order based on TLG's recent actions. Additionally, I will likely be purchasing less sets and purchasing smarter (less spontaneously) than in the past.

BrickDancer

binaryeye said:

BrickDancer said:

You know its bad when you click the "Discounted sets on Amazon" button on the Home Page and not a single set pops up.

It sounds like you need to disable the "show prices that have fallen" option. I see 30 sets at 25% off or better.

Fixed now and back to normal. Phew! Thought Amazon was throwing a fit, good to know all is swell.

madforLEGO

BrickDancer said:

binaryeye said:

BrickDancer said:

You know its bad when you click the "Discounted sets on Amazon" button on the Home Page and not a single set pops up.

It sounds like you need to disable the "show prices that have fallen" option. I see 30 sets at 25% off or better.

Fixed now and back to normal. Phew! Thought Amazon was throwing a fit, good to know all is swell.

Forgive my ignorance but where are these options to see all LEGO that has discounted on Amazon?

LegoFanTexas

Yes, regarding Amazon, they seem to have fallen in line on exclusives and held to RRP, then discounted just about everything else.

I can't recall seeing so many sets at 20% off all at the same time on Amazon. Yes, they always have sales, but more sets than not seem to be heavily discounted.

Maybe Amazon is sending a message back to TLG saying, "ok, two can play at this game, watch what happens when customers come to expect discounts on LEGO.

madforLEGO

Farmer_John said:

If I had to rank the order of companies I purchase Lego sets from, it would be as follows:

1) Amazon (by far)
2) Lego.com or B&M Store
3) eBay (individuals)
4) Wal-Mart
5) BrickLink
6) Kids Scandinavian Shop (used to have great prices...not so much anymore)
7) Target
8) ToysRUs
9) YoYo.com

I didn't necessarily want to start another thread and thought a list like this would fit nicely into this thread...since the justification for my list's order IS the discounts. I am definitely expecting a change in the order based on TLG's recent actions. Additionally, I will likely be purchasing less sets and purchasing smarter (less spontaneously) than in the past.

I agree with your list, but yoyo.com is fast rising on mine as every now and again the have a decent sale on stuff I want also Free shipping is definitely a factor.
I would say it would be
1)Amazon.com
2)LEGO online or B&M store
3)Walmart
4)Yoyo.com
5)Target
6) other stores
7) staring at wall, wishing for a LEGO set
8) TRU

I do not shop often anymore at TRU, it is fairly useless IMO. Once in a while I happen to get a 20% coupon and the set I want is only 10% higher than retail and if it is exclusive to TRU. So I could go there and buy, but between their prices and getting burned by thieves repacking boxes, I pass on most TRUs (unless I am looking for a polybag). There is a nice little train store by me that would have EOL LEGO at a slight discount none-the-less, but since they have gone online they either immediately run out of stock, or they rise to eBay prices.
I would say these top 5 are my complete LEGO buying experience at the moment, with maybe 5 Below for polybags, but I was just at the one near me and it was devoid of CMF or polybags.

I shop at BL mainly for Parts and whatnot, and have not really tried out BO yet. I have an account but I need to try buying. But I only use these sites for buying parts, not sets.

binaryeye

madforLEGO said:

Forgive my ignorance but where are these options to see all LEGO that has discounted on Amazon?

http://www.brickset.com/buy/us/amazon/

madforLEGO

binaryeye said:

madforLEGO said:

Forgive my ignorance but where are these options to see all LEGO that has discounted on Amazon?

http://www.brickset.com/buy/us/amazon/

Ahh, completely forgot about that, thanks for the link!

madforLEGO

I would say that there is an underlying feeling with Amazon that prices just are not being discounted the away they have been in the past. I see many sets being discounted on Amazon in the Brickset page, but I notice many 'major' non-exclusives are not on sale much or they are not on sale for anything over 20-30%.. maybe because I am not noticing them or what.
It just seems like many LEGO sets are not going to go over the 25% off much anymore on Amazon. I guess we will see if this continues during the holiday shopping season.
I should not complain, I think my wallet is the happiest of all when there is no temptation to get sets that are on sale.

cody6268

LegoFanTexas said:

I just looked something up...

Last year, TLG did $4 Billion USD in sales worldwide.

Last year, Walmart did $469 Billion USD in sales worldwide.

In fact, to put Walmart's number into perspective... that is more than 3% of the Gross Domestic Product of the United States of America...

3 cents of every dollar of productive activity in the United States... happens at Walmart.

It shall be interesting to see just how well TLG can dictate anything to Walmart, normally it is the other way around.

http://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-know

Worth reading... that was written in 2003, since then Walmart has almost doubled in size in 10 years and has only grown stronger when it comes to doing deals with suppliers...

In fact, many Walmarts did not even exist then. In my town, there was once a small Walmart where the Lowes is now. Now, there is a huge shopping center with a Supercenter Walmart that was built around the time of the article.

LegoFanTexas

I don't recall Amazon ever going much beyond 30% off, does someone remember otherwise when 40+% off was common?