mak: Looking for Input on Bricklink Transaction Issue

mak

I bought something off Bricklink in July, the items have still not not been delivered. I have been in touch with the seller and he keeps assuring me they will arrive and it does happen sometimes. I realised that the 45 days PayPal allows for a buyer to file for "Item Not Received" -(INR) is getting very close, so I filed. The seller has now got back to me saying he offered insurance but I didn't take it so if the items are not delivered, I have no right to file for that claim. According to this seller, I agreed to their store's terms when I made the purchase and didn't pay extra for insurance.

How should I approach this? Am I in the wrong for filing for INR?

Gavin83

What country are you from and what country is the seller from?

I'm fairly sure that for non delivery paypal will side with you anyway, regardless of insurance or what terms the store puts in place. If this is a UK sale it's certainly true, I'm not entirely sure of the laws for such matters in the US.

cmrt1014

Some more information, please: Where are you located? Where is the seller located? (Country is specific enough) Did the seller let you know what date the order shipped? What shipping method was used?

Depending on the answers to the above questions, it may be too early to give advise beyond "wait a bit longer" if it's coming from another country, or "it's been far too long" if the seller is just around the block from you.

In any case, was this a large $$ order or just a small parts order? See if you can get the seller to work with you to make this right.

cloaked7

I have only dealt with a person on bricklink once and do not sell there. But, I have sold over 1,000 items on eBay. I mail via USPS and FedEx. Course, FedEx has insurance (up to $100) included. Not so for USPS. I have never had anyone file a claim with FedEx or had anything lost. I did have an item I purchased from overseas never arrive via the USPS and the seller just gave me my money back. As a seller I have never had anything not arrive, but did have something take almost 30 days to get delivered. The seller said the box was dirty and had black marks all over it, but it did finally arrive.

Now days it is free to add tracking when mailing via USPS and eBay. So, I would ask the seller if they included delivery confirmation. As a buyer I would like to see proof that they mailed/shipped my stuff.

Now, for me a lot depends on the cost of the item. If an item is over $50 I will usually ship via FedEx so that it is insured. If the cost is between $35-50 I may or may not mention insurance to the seller. Generally people don't take out insurance. If the item is less than $35 I don't worry about insurance or anything.

If the item were $10 or less and I had tracked the item and it never showed that it was delivered I would figure the seller was telling the truth and would just give them a refund. If the item cost between $10 and $50 and tracking showed the item was never delivered I would wait 45 days. If it still didn't show up I may give the buyer a partial refund, but the onus is on the buyer to have the item insured if it is pricey. Course, as I mentioned, if the item is $50+ I am going to insure it.

Also, the rating of the buyer or seller plays a part in what I do. As a buyer I have had things arrive poorly packaged, mailed after 30 days of purchase, and a few times the seller never provided proof they mailed my stuff. In all of those cases I filed a claim. So, I think you are OK with what you did. If the seller cannot prove he mailed you your stuff I think the onus is on them.

Good that you filed a claim. PayPal should back you up and ask the seller to provide proof.

Whew... didn't mean to type a history. :-) Don't know if that helps. Just my experience and thoughts.

dougts

Paypal will almost certainly side with you unless the seller can provide a signature proof of delivery to you.

The seller can argue you agreed to his store terms, but the only way for him to enforce it is to sue you, which seems quite unlikely. More likely he leaves you negative feedback and that's the end of that. maybe he'll try to bad mouth you on the BL forums as well.

Most likely, assuming the seller is honest, the items are "lost in the mail". Best course of action might be to try and work out a compromise of some sort, though I"m not sure what I would propose - depends highly on the amount of the order.

lang

Might not be of any help, but as a seller of other items in the past, I always take pictures of the package and receipts when dropping off at the post office - regardless of shipping method/carrier.

Perhaps he has something of the sort to share with you (?)

y2josh

dougts said:

Paypal will almost certainly side with you unless the seller can provide a signature proof of delivery to you.

The seller can argue you agreed to his store terms, but the only way for him to enforce it is to sue you, which seems quite unlikely. More likely he leaves you negative feedback and that's the end of that. maybe he'll try to bad mouth you on the BL forums as well.

Most likely, assuming the seller is honest, the items are "lost in the mail". Best course of action might be to try and work out a compromise of some sort, though I"m not sure what I would propose - depends highly on the amount of the order.

Dependent on the amount of the order, PayPal may only ask for Proof of Delivery. They only require a signature if the total is over $200. Either way, if the seller can't prove it was delivered, PayPal should side with the buyer, no questions asked.

LegoFanTexas

Gavin83 said:

What country are you from and what country is the seller from?

I'm fairly sure that for non delivery paypal will side with you anyway, regardless of insurance or what terms the store puts in place. If this is a UK sale it's certainly true, I'm not entirely sure of the laws for such matters in the US.

Same issue in the US.

The reason PayPal has the rules they do is because of Federal Mail Order laws, enforced by the Federal Trade Commission in the United States. The UK has similar rules about mail order and seller responsibilities.

The seller cannot put terms in their store overriding the law, and in short, the law says a seller mailing an item to a customer is responsible for the item until it arrives. Otherwise, the buyer is free to seek their money back.

With a credit card, this is easy, file a charge back. If cash or MO is used, or a bank transfer, then only suing them in the courts is an option, and clearly that would be nuts for almost all mail order transactions.

This is why you always use a credit card. ;) It gives you charge back rights.

Or you can use PayPal's Buyer Protection, which is almost as good, but not quite as good as a credit card.

LegoFanTexas

Just to make sure it is very, very clear...

Sellers on Bricklink who use terms like, "if you buy from me and don't request insurance, I'm not responsible for lost or damaged items", are just engaged in wishful thinking.

Bricklink store terms do not override PayPal's Buyer Protection or national mail order laws. It really is just that simple.

Renny

It cuts into my profits but I offer full insurance coverage for free for all my Brick Link buyers. It not only provides them peace of mind but also does the same for me.

Renny

Regardless of whether you bought insurance or not, the fact remains that you haven't received anything in the mail. If that's the case and it has been a month since it was sent then it is within your right to request a refund. Has the buyer provided any kind of proof it was sent? A Delivery confirmation number or perhaps the custom form number?

forumreader

Stick to your guns with the INR claim. LFT is right; the Bricklink terms do not override possible PayPal buyer protection.

I'm kind of surprised the seller didn't use delivery confirmation when he or she shipped. I was under the impression that accepting Paypal and shipping without DC or signature confirmation included was asking for trouble.

LegoFanTexas

^ A lot of international mail shipping doesn't offer tracking or DC once a package crosses the border.

For example, USPS Priority Mail International does not offer tracking everywhere outside of the US. It does work in some countries, but not in others and there is no promise that it will ever work.

So shipping out of the US using PM International is always a risk. I've used it before, but often I'll insist on USPS Express Mail instead.

I recently sold my deboxed 10221 SSD to Australia. It was $60 for Priority Mail International, it was $75 for Express Mail. In that case, clearly I only shipped it via Express Mail, provides me with some security in the event the buyer says "never got it".

OF course, with PayPal, nothing is certain, they are very buyer centric so sooner or later as a seller you're going to lose at some point.

dougts

^ Australia is usually pretty good in regards to Priority mail. I've shipped close to 100 packages there in the past year, and not a single one has been lost yet. some were express, but most were priority, and the tracking shows delivery 75-80% of the time.

other countries are much more sketchy for sure, and your general guidelines are spot on.

LegoFanTexas

I agree with you... but for a $360 item and a $15 difference in shipping cost that the buyer is paying anyway, and with my butt on the line if it does have a problem... it wasn't a hard decision. :)

cheshirecat

This is a pet peeve of mine, resellers on ebay saying it's not their fault if an item doesnt reach you. I almost feel like lying and saying it hasn't got to me just to prove a point - but I haven't. Whether it's that they're stupid or that they know most buyers are stupid im not sure but I would love to have that argument with them.

mak

Hi all, @Gavin83 i am based in the UK and the seller is in the US.
@cmrt1014 Yes the seller sent the items the day after I paid i.e 25th July via USPS and provided the track & trace info but according the tracking, the item is still in the US. The total paid is a little over $50

@cloaked7, this seller seem to think because he shipped the item and has provided the tracking information, his done his part and whether the items are delivered or not, that's my problem. Thanks your thoughts and experience are very valuable :-)

@dougts - Yes he has already threatened to bad mouth me on BL forums and leave me a negative feedback. Claims I am abusing PayPal Buyer Protection Program because the money PayPal has put a hold on belongs to him and I have no right to do that. So he will 'expose me' (his words) to other sellers about me. And, file a NPB as well.

@lang - all I have is the tracking and the information on the tracking says the item is still in the US

@LegoFanTexas - Thanks, yes you're right. I pointed out to him that the Uniform Commercial Code in the US, equivalent to the UK's Distance Selling Regulation overides his store's terms, and to put it lightly, he wasn't best pleased.

@Renny, thanks, looks like if a buyer doesn't take the insurance he's offering, buying from him becomes a lottery.

mak

@cheshirecat - Some resellers seem to think they can make their own rules and those rules overrides every comsumer law. Only if it was that easy

dougts

insurance or not, it's always a lottery to some extent. Unlike real lotteries, your odds of "winning" (i.e. - getting what you paid for), are really quite high. this appears to be one of the cases where the items just legitimately disappeared.

Good bricklink sellers will take care of their customers. sometimes that means they eat the losses. it appears this guy isn't one of those.

LegoFanTexas

mak said:

@cheshirecat - Some resellers seem to think they can make their own rules and those rules overrides every comsumer law. Only if it was that easy

Forget online selling, plenty of people in every day life believe that as well.

If you doubt that, watch a few episodes of the TV show Cops... You'll see plenty of people arguing with the Police thinking they can do whatever they want.

mressin

^Of course, that can also go the other way found, when cops do whatever they want.

cheshirecat

Anyway. Seems like its their issue to sort out not yours - their attitude of trying to intimidate you into giving up on the claim is just lame, if i was you i would tell us who the bricklink seller is, stand firm on the paypal thing and let them sort out their compensation with their delivery firm.

StuBoy

I had a BL order that was taking a while to arrive (about 3-4 weeks) and as soon as I contacted the seller about it the package turned up with 'miss-sent to Nigeria' or something stamped on it!

So these things do happen, but waiting for over a month seems a bit much. Good luck and stick to your guns - I agree with everyone else here.

monkeyhanger

Every BL order I have placed has had store terms that deny responsibility for lost items in post if you didn't take out insurance, but Paypal will side with the buyer if the seller can't provide proof of postage. Paypal will probably insist on refund anyway and let the seller chase the carrier with their proof of postage to get reimbursement for themselves.

Worst that can happen is you're blacklisted on BL, but if you're a regular user that could be worse than copping for a non-delivered low value order.

mak

Thanks for the advice everyone, appreciate that.

LegoFanTexas

^^ How would you get blacklisted on Bricklink for filing a PayPal buyer protection claim?

Also, not every store has those terms, mine doesn't. I stand behind what I sell, I take full responsibility until it is safely in your hands, I'll never say "tough luck" ever... If I want the package insured, I put insurance on it, that is to protect me the seller, not you the buyer.

Buying from a seller like me is like buying from Amazon, you never have any risk and any mistakes, errors, problems, screwups, etc. will be fixed.

I am never interested in the money from any one sale so much that I want to screw anyone over. That would just be lame.

mressin

^ You're the man! What's your bricklink shop? :)

tedward

LegoFanTexas said:

^^ How would you get blacklisted on Bricklink for filing a PayPal buyer protection claim?

Because the seller threatened to file an NPB claim and tell other sellers that the buyer is not to be trusted.

mak

^^ I would like to know that too :).

The seller has now backed down on his threats and unprofessional attitude. He has agreed to sort things out amicably. tbh I nearly pushed the escalation button because he was begining to get on my last nerve.

He sounds like he's fairly new to selling online and hasn't grasp what the risks are or he was using intimidation tactics to scare me to back down on the claim.

dougts

^ well, hopefully this is a learning experience for him. So many people want to sell online and have no realization of the risks involved. Ask any retailer or big-time internet seller - sometimes you just have to eat losses. its part of the business and must be built into your business plan.

CCC

tedward said:

LegoFanTexas said:

^^ How would you get blacklisted on Bricklink for filing a PayPal buyer protection claim?

Because the seller threatened to file an NPB claim and tell other sellers that the buyer is not to be trusted.

That works two ways. The buyer only needs to comment that the parcel was never received, and if the seller has not shown any proof of postage, it is word against word. Some sellers may blacklist the buyer. But others are likely to also blacklist the seller (as a buyer and a seller).

tedward

CCC said:

That works two ways. The buyer only needs to comment that the parcel was never received, and if the seller has not shown any proof of postage, it is word against word.

Yep. Under the Paypal TOS and most postal regulations, anyone shipping a product directly to a customer pretty much has to simply trust that the buyer is honest and will pay for the item(s). If a seller is not prepared to risk the occasional thief then they simply have no business selling through the mail.

Sad comment on the world we live in, but all you can do is move on.

seonadancing

I was in the same situation last month when a package I bought from a big BL seller didn't arrive in a week's time. it was a US domestic delivery so it shouldn't take that long. So I waited about 4 weeks and I asked the seller how we can resolve this and, he only offered me 50% refund on the package. He said he had proof of delivery and he did send the package. I said that it is not acceptable since I offer my buyers 100% refund given the same situation because it's not their fault when something gets stolen from the seller. I've bought from this seller 4 times in the past and he told me to accept the 50% refund so we can continue doing business in the future. The next day after he offered this, the package actually arrived. So when the seller said he had proof of delivery, what exactly is that? He had no tracking number, just proof of delivery. I'm happy to have received my items but I wish that all sellers would hold themselves accountable for lost packages.

LegoFanTexas

^ I would not buy from that seller again...

CCC

^^ I hope he also issues you with a goodwill coupon, just so you can decline it.

seonadancing

So, does this mean that he lied about the proof of delivery, He mentioned this before I received the package. He did send the 50% refund as a coupon before I even agreed to it. As big as his shop is, I never thought that he won't be able to cover a $100 loss, well less, because the $100 was the retail value.

BrickDancer

^You're lucky that it was a false alarm but the situation allowed you to see his 'ethics' in resolving problems for his customers. Which is a big driver for my decisions of whom to buy from. If he specifically stated he had "Delivery Confirmation" that showed you received it, then double whammy for lying on top of it.

Just imagine if it happened again with that seller and that it didn't work out as well. Would you be happy to voluntarily put yourself into a 50% refund/punishment scenario with that same person again?

effalcon

I'm dealing with something similar at the moment from Bricklink, almost 2 months, no package.

Unfortunately i left it until after 45 days before logging a claim, so it may be denied.

But being in australia, post from the US can often take 4 weeks+ so the 45 days paypal offers is almost borderline.

just have to play it out and see what happens with my ~$250 :/

tedward

BrickDancer said:

If he specifically stated he had "Delivery Confirmation" that showed you received it, then double whammy for lying on top of it.

The seller was not necessarily lying so please do not make accusations like that. My wife has an Etsy store and ships to the UK regularly. More than once she has had packages tracked that the system says have been delivered but have not reached the buyer.

The UK postal system seems to mark packages delivered when it is the hands of the local postman. This becomes apparent when a package is sent to the wrong location, sorted for local delivery and marked "delivered". It then has to travel back through the UK system until it gets to the correct address. The status never changing from "delivered".

effalcon said:

I'm dealing with something similar at the moment from Bricklink, almost 2 months, no package...
But being in australia, post from the US can often take 4 weeks+ so the 45 days paypal offers is almost borderline.

Shipping from Canada to Australia is a nightmare and took more than two months when I did it which, BTW was within the Canada Post terms of service.

I had to refund the Australian buyer because he chose the slow shipping option. So even though the PayPal deadline had passed he insisted on a refund then paid me again when it finally showed up a week later. Of course, I lost money on the "refund" and then had to pay the PayPal fee a second time.

So, while the buyer is right and deserves protection, if I ever sell on BL again I will simply not ship to Australia or require the ludicrously expensive faster shipping options. Everybody loses!

seonadancing

The other thing that caught me off guard was when the package didn't arrive after 2 weeks, I asked him if he can send over the replacement and if ever the first package do arrive, I'd gladly pay him for the replacement package too, he agreed to that but changed his mind a few days later, and he wanted me to wait it out instead. Then a month went by and he offered the 50% refund. Maybe he didn't trust me.

CupIsHalfEmpty

I had a similar situation shipping to Australia from Canada. The guidelines are 10 weeks! The parcel, a #10220 , took 10 weeks minus a day to arrive. Fortunately the buyer was aware before I shipped that It would take that long and I promised a full refund after the 10 week mark if it didn't arrive. I suppose the savings in shipping was worth the wait.

I've learned as a seller to always ad insurance if I'm not willing to take the loss on a lost parcel. It's my responsibility to get the parcel there.

Billy

LegoFanTexas

^ That is one of the reasons the US Postal Service no longer offers surface mail.

It was taking months to get anywhere and people complained too much.

It does cost less, but sometimes it isn't worth it.

cloaked7

^^ Delivery confirmation errors. I recently mailed something via Priority Mail (Cuusoo MineCraft) that the buyer had to have for a birthday. So, the day after I mailed it I checked to see that it was in the USPS system. The delivery date was the same as the picked up date. :-) Obviously in error. The pkg did arrive 2 days later, but not the same day is was mailed. The USPS tracking never showed the actual delivery date.

gdelahousse

if you want a laugh, here is the tracking of a package I shipped on 6/12 in Colorado to California. I think they only show the last dozen of so scanning as you can see it traveled 3 times from CO to CA and CA to CO before I got it back...
https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction?qtc_tLabels1=9101785091401775633650

chowrentoys

mak - You have every right to file INR. It is ultimately the seller's job to communicate with the buyer to avoid INR. I think better communication from the seller would have resolved this issue from the beginning. As a seller in the US, we have had similar problems with the USPS. Your parcel was obviously shipped by First Class Mail, which normally takes 3 to 4 weeks to get from the US to the UK, but it can take up to 60 days due to customs delay (This is all stated on the USPS website). When international buyer purchase from us, this is what I tell them right off the bat so they get an idea how long it might take. The "tracking number" you received is not a real tracking number. For US postal service only Priority and Express Mail come with actual trackable numbers. For First Class it is call a delivery confirmation number, which only tells you when an item has been received by the post office and when an item has been delivered. This is why your parcel still shows that it is still in the US. This is something the seller could have explained also. The final thing with the USPS is you can't even file for insurance with them until 60 days have passed, because they have up to 60 days to deliver it as stated in their website. Had the seller purchased insurance, which he should have at his expense then he could have explained this to you as well. If it was me I would explain everything I just did to you and reassure you that no mater what happens you will either get a replacement or full refund.

chowrentoys

I believe it is standard practice now that it is the merchants who are responsible for insurance. If you make a purchase with your credit card and the merchant did not deliver your item then they have not fulfill their obligation of completing the transaction. Even if it is not the fault of the merchant that the parcel got lost it is still the merchant's responsibility to complete the transaction. You can file with your credit card company, because you did not receive what you purchased. The credit card company will always side with you in this case.

The is only one way to run a business and that is the right way. Be upfront and communicate with your customers. Don't cut corners and most importantly insure all packages!!

DadsAFOL

@seonadancing There are two sides to every story. Your order was delivered within two days. You chose to use a "friend" with a US address as a freight forwarder to the Philippines. Somehow your "friend" misplaced this and took 4 weeks to get it sent over to you. We absolutely do try to take care of our customers, which is why we offered to split the value with you, even though our package was delivered to the address you wanted it sent to. I'm glad that you finally received it, but you need to accept some responsibility that your plan for freight forwarding didn't work like you expected it to. Our prior orders were sent directly to you in the Philippines and we never had a problem. I think our 10,000+ orders speak for our excellent customer service.

Regarding others in this thread, communication between buyer and sellers is key. Yes, sometimes things go wrong, but the good sellers will work to correct them. Keep in mind that there are 30,000-50,000 transactions on BrickLink every month. The vast majority of orders are delievered timely, and without any problems. Only a very very small percentage go bad.

9400110200829432806331
First-Class Mail®
Delivered
July 21, 2012, 1:23 pm
FOLSOM, CA 95630
Delivery Confirmation™


Accepted at USPS Origin Sort Facility
July 19, 2012, 10:20 pm
LAKE FOREST, CA 92630

CCC

^ Now that's interesting. Something is always missing in a one-sided story. So in this case it was delivered within days - just that they were using a friend to forward it, and they had messed up.

LegoFanTexas

CCC said:

^ Now that's interesting. Something is always missing in a one-sided story. So in this case it was delivered within days - just that they were using a friend to forward it, and they had messed up.

My Father used to tell me there were always at least three sides to every story...

1. Your Side
2. Their Side
3. The Truth

LegoFanTexas

edit to above...

It takes a big man (or woman) to stand up and say "you know what, I just messed up, I was wrong and let me fix it".

Sometimes people get so hung up in fighting for "their side" that they never stop to think about how it looks from across the table.

Sometimes, the other person is right and you're wrong, I think most people respect someone who just say, "darn it, I am wrong, I will make it right".

I have sellers on Bricklink that I'll never buy from again, and others that had problems with a shipment to me, then they made it right, and I have gone back to multiple times to buy again. Everyone makes mistakes, no one anywhere, is perfect... it is how you fix those mistakes that really matters...

dougts

wow. talk about leaving out a *HUGE* piece of relevant information. In this case, I'd say the seller went above and beyond the call of duty, willing to pick up 50% of the loss on an item he clearly delivered as instructed in fast order.