Marketplace Safety and Etiquette

Huw

The Brickset forum is a great place to trade and buy and sell LEGO. The people here are a great bunch and you can trade with other members with confidence.

Safety
In the 18 months the forum has been operating we are aware of only one transaction that didn't work out, where it appeared that somebody joined to set up a deal and then didn't fulfil their side of it. A very isolated incident, and one we don't want to happen again.

So, before participating in a transaction you should satisfy yourself that it is safe to do so. There are several things you can do:

- View the user's profile, by clicking on their name, to see when they joined.
- On their profile page, click on the links in the side menu to view the discussions and comments they've posted.
- Contact them through the forum and ask if they have eBay or BrickLink feedback you can view
- Always use PayPal

This is obviously a generalisation, but people that have only just joined, or who do not contribute to the forum and don't have a trading history elsewhere might be a cause for concern and you should take particular care when trading with them, especially if they are not in your own country.

Let's be careful out there...

Etiquette
Please remember that the Marketplace is intended to connect trading partners and sellers with interested buyers.

Members - especially those that have no intention to conduct direct business with the offering party - should not treat it as an opportunity to scrutinize the desired transaction, i.e. criticizing the asking price or mentioning alternate purchasing opportunities.

paul_merton

+ when using PayPal, don't mark the transaction as a gift.

PlasticDots

Well I have had some bad luck with paypal and people buying from me and making claims like they didn't get it or wanting partial refunds for no reason, PayPal always sides with the buyers so it's a risk also for the sellers especially for higher priced items and sometimes I have lost my item as well as the money. How can the post office "lose" a box that can fit a tire inside it! Even with a signature they will still get a refund. I like emt which can scare people but I have many eBay references, some bricklink and a home number you can call anytime

mak

For sellers, do send to the address provided by PayPal and if possible, use a courier or a service you can track just in case there is a dispute with delivery.

LegoFanTexas

paul_merton said:

+ when using PayPal, don't mark the transaction as a gift.

:) Unless you really trust the person...

I bought a $1,500 Lego set here and paid with it marked as a gift. So it can and does work, but you have no recourse if the item doesn't arrive.

LegoFanTexas

mak said:

For sellers, do send to the address provided by PayPal and if possible, use a courier or a service you can track just in case there is a dispute with delivery.

And keep in mind that PayPal requires a signature if the item is over $250.

AFFOL_Shellz_Bellz

^ isn't this true only if you're shipping through PayPal. Because I seldom sell anything I don't use any of their services except money transfers, but I've never heard that they require a signature.

jon_k

As a veteran from another forum, I still think some of the best ways to trade( for the Uk) is to make sure that you have personal details before you part with any money. I totally agree with the sentiments over paypal but I have spoken to many genuine sellers on the phone and they have been more than happy to share details so that the most basic of checks can be done. There will always be people out there looking to make a quick killing, just keep your wits about you

cheshirecat

I'm a bit unsure of the reasons behind this... "should not treat it as an opportunity to scrutinize the desired transaction, i.e. criticizing the asking price or mentioning alternate purchasing opportunities."

Whilst I see that it could get out of hand and become personal (but then isn't that why forums have mods) I actually think either of the above, and certainly the latter would be a good thing. This is a community and if as a community we're able to stop people getting shafted then that is surely part and parcel.

I think the above is rare but once a month or so a somewhat optimistic valuation is placed on things for sale/trade. I've also seen spurious percentage discounts being used to bring ridiculously optimistic valuations more in line (although still overly high). I've no problem with either - buyer beware, but if we're going to rightly allow it, then surely as a community its equally right to allow us to call out when necessary. Surely its all part of self regulation that as a community we should do.

After all, we freely comment on good and bad prices at retail stores (and some of the marketplace sellers are no different), we comment on the packaging and delivery services. We should also remember that if people want to sell without comment there are plenty of services already available - ebay, amazon marketplace etc.

Ultimately I just don't see the reason. If you're selling at good prices (most seem to be better than ebay/amazon/bricklink) then nobodys going to call you out, and almost all marketplace sellers, @LegoFanTexas for example, would have nothing to worry about as their prices are always fair. Whilst there may be some comments that become personal its easy enough for a mod to delete them or warnings to be issued. The alternative of course is for threads to appear in the UK or US shopping sections warning that some bricklink prices are too high - but that would seem like even more trouble to me.

tom4086

^ @cheshirecat - Couldn't have put it better myself!

greekmick

^^ @cheshirecat - I totally agree. I have no idea what most items are worth and would actually appreciate it if someone said my price was too high.

CCC

Presumably the community will also say if the price is too low, and no-one will jump in and buy an item if a good price is offered without knowing the going rate?

Phonebooth

^^ @Cheshirecare @tom4086 --> As a frequenter of the Marketplace forum, I agree that most well priced items will sell well and will sell quickly. Moreover, I don't believe that any comments would be overly malicious should they be allowed to occur. I feel that such comments - when warranted - would protect purchasers and help them be better informed.

My major complaint is on the (rare) listings with no apparent selling price and questionable desire to sell at all. The "taking offers" indefinitely style of selling. If you're selling an item fine. If you want to keep your price hidden, that's also fine. But let's end this "i think I might want to sell if I get an offer that's at the right price" nonsense. Otherwise, just turn the Marketplace into ebay.

cheshirecat

@CCC people already do, I think I,saw LFT do it just a few days ago. Strangely people dont cry about the rules when that happens.

TyoSolo

The problem is, when you essentially spam a thread with negative comments like some recently did with mine, any other potential buyers immediately lose confidence in either me, or what I have to sell. I'm not a scammer, I listed something at a price that was slightly above the average of Bricklink prices, but also offered 30% off that price, so what's the problem?

If you were genuinely concerned that I'd overpriced my item, you could have PM'd me, and if I'd wanted to, I could have lowered my asking price without anyone being any the wiser (which I have subsequently done to bring in line with the eBay BIN prices I was pointed to). If I didn't want to change - let it sit there and fester with no interest.

Phonebooth

^ @tyosolo - I don't think 1 comment was excessive nor enough to potentially damage your sales or credibility.

tom4086

@TyoSolo - I'd hardly call my comments "spam", nor am I a "spammer". I simply pointed out that, in my opinion, in the current market, your item was over priced. Surely this information is useful to you and to the community as it will a) educate people as to the current market value and b) allow you to reach a sale much sooner. Surely you should be grateful for this kind of information?

If you were offering a discount of x%, why not simply lower the price to start with?

If I was genuinely concerned that you'd overpriced your item, I would not PM you as you'd simply ignore my message and no one would be educated. Yes you could have altered your price, but lets be honest, you've now changed your price as you simply have little choice to do so. This isn't personal, it's just an example that has been brought into the spotlight.

I agree with @adammullins, as I also feel that such comments - when warranted - would protect purchasers and help them be better informed.

The marketplace could simply be a place to trade items. As @cheshirecat has said, there are other means in which to sell, but folk prefer to sell here as there are no fees (maybe this could be introduced?)

As has already been said, everything should be open for comment. If your item is priced too high, members should be allowed to advise other members, as we do for the retail stores etc.

Surely this would make Brickset a better place in the long run, with buyers and sellers sharing their information, educating everyone and new members knowing they will not be ripped off in the marketplace.

TyoSolo

^^ No, but it detracted from the rest of the offer, highlighted the pre discount price and not the VERY reasonable sale price (as far as Bricklink is concerned) and highlighted offers that weren't at a fixed price. Therefore it wasn't constructive but damaging to the offer.

I would welcome a comment such as "I was interested but your price is too high for me, will you accept offers?". It is constructive, and opens up conversation on the offer posted, allowing the seller to consider negotiating.

A comment such as "Damn that's expensive, I can get it for half that at [insert retailer]" is damaging, and basically shuts out the person offering from rescuing that thread, and as in my case led to the point of the topic being lost.

^ As for pricing lower in the first place. Limited time sales are a marketing tactic. Retailers do it regularly to boost sales and traffic/footfall, so why can't a Bricklink store?

And for the record, I wouldn't dream of ignoring anyone that wanted to speak to me, 100 friends are better than 100 strangers. I especially wouldn't ignore a potential repeat customer.

Perhaps it was the way I advertised. If I'd promoted just the 30% off all stock, rather than the highlight of my inventory, would I have received the same feedback? I don't know.

drdavewatford

My understanding is that the Brickset staff are 100% aligned around the current policy and I don't see much likelihood of us changing it, although I'm happy to raise it with my fellow Admins.

I don't disagree with some of the points made by @tom4086 and @cheshirecat but what constitutes a reasonable price is massively subjective and the potential for flame wars and public spats on pretty much every single marketplace thread is thus considerable. I actually think that @TyoSolo was quite restrained in his response to the initial challenge; others would not have been so reasonable.

At best, such price commentaries on what a forum member perceives to be fair or otherwise have the potential to pull a simple "For Sale..." posting completely off-topic, and to be frank the staff have better things to do than fight fires on the marketplace 24/7...

If you have a serious beef about a posting then feel free to contact me or another member of staff - if we consider that someone is really taking the piss then we can and will intervene.

Matthew

tom4086 said:

The marketplace could simply be a place to trade items. As @cheshirecat has said, there are other means in which to sell, but folk prefer to sell here as there are no fees (maybe this could be introduced?)

That's far easier said than done, a site like BrickLink has an order structure, but there is no way for Brickset to know if a sale has gone through or not, so even if fees were imposed there would be no way for us to enforce their payment.

cheshirecat said:

...(but then isn't that why forums have mods)...

...Whilst there may be some comments that become personal its easy enough for a mod to delete them or warnings to be issued...

As DrDave touched upon above, all the staff are volunteers, and there are better uses of our time than deal with disputes than needn't have occurred in the first place.

rocao

Commentary on offering price introduces subjectivity: what some people may view as a bargain, others may not. This opens up the possibility of a contentious scenario where a sale that would have otherwise transpired, fails because of injected criticism.

Here are the situations I have seen transpire:

Scam: Interference is definitely desirable if the seller is running a scam, and we will continue to try to prevent this with the community's help via flag notifications. In the most obvious cases, I would say go ahead and PM the interested buyer and even ignore the etiquette and post your concerns.

Pricing discussion: Situations where people simply don't agree with the asking price turns an advertisement into a debate. This has been the most frequent scenario. There have been instances in the past where doubt was cast on a sale, even though by traditional measures, such as eBay and bricklink pricing, the price was quite fair. Other times, the tone of the discussion isn't as clear, but it's certainly off-topic and distracting from sale.

Intercepting: There have been marketplace posts where a secondary member comments and also offers the item to sell. This is effectively hijacking or sabotage. The proper course of action would be to start one's own Marketplace thread.

Alternate buying opportunities: This is generally done in good faith, but I still see this as a breach of etiquette because it undermines the sale. Instead, I think if people are compelled to educate buyers, they are welcome to post a buyer's guide on where and how to buy current and aftermarket LEGO, and we'll "promote" if it proves useful.

cheshirecat

Still disagree, i just don't see comments being a big problem as the vast majority of marketplace sellers put a better than bricklink/ebay price on things, and if theres a reason for a higher price like 'i give great service' then i suspect the seller would welcome the opportunity to say so. I still think letting someone put a value on something that's over twice the average sale price over the last month on ebay
without the ability to call them out on that does a disservice to the community that is much greater than the potential lost sales to the sellers.

While we're discussing these things, whats the etiquette on bumping marketplace threads. Seeing more and more of that recently, given the bumping your thread up bumps everyone elses down. There's one today that's been bumped just three hours after the last comment.

LostInTranslation

^ I think if the seller bumps by adding/removing items or changing prices, ie makes a meaningful contribution it doesn't matter what the interval is. If the comment is literally just 'bump', to try and get more interest, then they need to leave at least a day.

TyoSolo

^If people were really paying attention, they would have noticed that I was willing to trade for an in production item that has an average Bricklink value half that of the item offered - That's because I like Ships more than I like Shops. People value things differently as Dr. D stated. I think the money people pay for modulars is outrageous, but I'd happily shell out good money for a MISB Armada Flagship.

The problem is, most won't have got that far as the first response basically made out like I wanted an extortionate amount of money for it, so less people will have clicked through to see the trade offers.

rocao

The overriding principle that either you're missing or that we haven't communicated effectively was that the Marketplace is intended to be a vehicle for two interested parties to make a willing transaction, where both buyer and seller should beware. We do not condone anything that transpires here, and to that end, our preference is to have zero moderation duties.

This is best achieved when buyer and seller can go about their business. As more externals are introduced (commentary, feedback system, etc), the requirement for moderation increases and so too does our unwitting involvement in sales.

drdavewatford

cheshirecat said:

I still think letting someone put a value on something that's over twice the average sale price over the last month on ebay without the ability to call them out on that does a disservice to the community that is much greater than the potential lost sales to the sellers.

And therein lies the problem. While you believe that you're calling the seller out appropriately on this, you actually aren't because you're not comparing like with like - many of those eBay listings you cite as evidence are auctions. Whereas offering to sell an item for a fixed price in the Marketplace is akin to a "Buy It Now" listing rather than an auction. And it certainly doesn't look to me as if the seller is valuing his item at over twice the average eBay "Buy It Now" sale price, particularly at 30% off.

All of which illustrates how subjective this is, and hence why if you don't like the price you see then you should just walk away rather than take the seller to task and potentially ruin the chances of a successful transaction taking place, just because you don't believe it's a good price....

atkinsar

I applaud anyone who actually names a price on the sets they're selling around here, a lot don't and I have to say it is a bugbear of mine. This PM me with offers attitude just doesn't work for me, most of the time you know full well what you want for the item so why not advertise it and we'll work from there. If you genuinely don't know what something is worth then either do some research or sell it on eBay.

I would much rather someone stated a high price than no price at all because it gives me something to work with. I have passed on countless threads selling sets that I'm after because I'm not interested in guessing the number the seller has in their head.

Been meaning to get that off my chest for a while.

cheshirecat

^^ In fairness, surely the reality would be if I said 'that price is outrageous' (which i didn't by the way even though i saw the sale, I knew the rules) and someone else thought it wasn't then they would say so, or if there was a reason for the discrepancy (a very well looked after box, better service etc) it would be explained. Hence any potential buyer is better informed - surely something that should be aimed for within the community.

I do want to apologise to (he knows who he is, but i'll leave the name out for obvious reasons) that this is talking about a specific offer when the issue has been bugging me for a while. Its not personal.

However, I also find it odd that we are so accepting of a 30% offer that takes it down to £5 over the three current ebay buy-it-now prices. Isn't this what so many of us bitch and moan about Toys-R-Us and their sale practices?

To me, this and the other mentioned no-price-given aren't-i-a-clever-seller issue are indicative of a marketplace being used with techniques that i think fall below that expected within a community. I kind of wonder at the benefit to the community of marketplace sales that are worse than even the average on ebay. But that's just my opinion. The whole, you mustn't question another sale, just seems a little unregulated to me.

prof1515

Huw said:

In the 18 months the forum has been operating we are aware of only one transaction that didn't work out, where it appeared that somebody joined to set up a deal and then didn't fulfil their side of it. A very isolated incident, and one we don't want to happen again.

Well, I had three different buyers in December back out of payment after I went through the effort of going to the post office to have their package weighed for shipping cost. Waited for payment before shipping and it never arrived nor did they respond when I inquired as to what happened. Fortunately not much of a loss to me aside from the time spent packing the boxes and a 30-minute round trip to the post office each time to have the things weighed.

cheshirecat

Also, just checked (because I've got nothing better to do) and whilst the odd buy it now sale on ebay has gone up to £65 the average is almost exactly £50 (£51.90 to be precise). - hence half what that valuation was, and some significantly less. Even with the 30% off its not anything like a good deal that the 30% would make you believe.

CCC

rocao said:

Intercepting: There have been marketplace posts where a secondary member comments and also offers the item to sell. This is effectively hijacking or sabotage. The proper course of action would be to start one's own Marketplace thread.

What is correct procedure for things like the CMF series trades? I always thought that there was meant to be one post for each series - it seemed to be the case for S5-7. But if someone starts a thread saying they have minifigs A, B and C and want D, E and F, and then someone else comes in and says they also have A, B and C and want D, E and F, then are they intercepting / hijacking / sabotaging the thread?

Bumblepants

Also, just about everyone here either has a pretty good idea of what a set is worth or can quickly find that information on their own. Unless it is a scam, I don't think we need to discuss the price someone has posted. If someone buys Lego on here for more or less than eBay or Bricklink or Craiglist or whatever that is their choice as an adult consumer.

cheshirecat

^ Well that's kind of funny, because by that reckoning someone that puts a set for sale at about twice what its going for (and as you say has a good idea of what a set is worth) is clearly trying to screw someone over. But no, even though we are a community, we should protect the sellers rights rather than protect the interests of a potential buyer. No-ones saying a sale should be stopped but if a sale is stopped because a seller can't explain why they've over priced then I don't really see a problem.

Bumblepants

^ I was just trying to say I would think anyone here would not buy an overpriced set at TRU before checking Amazon or other options to find the best deal. Same should go for Marketplace. Look around and see if the deal is good and go from there.

Phonebooth

^ It all comes down to who are we trying to protect? Buyers or sellers?

Theoretically, I agree with @drdavewatford and @rocao in that there should be minimal interference from all involved in the marketplace if the true goal is to connect sellers with buyers.

And yes, on this forum I would contend that the MAJORITY effectively price compare across retailers/vendors/sites/sellers as @bumblepants notes.

However, the individual that has the highest likelihood to be taken advantage of is the buyer, who may be ill informed of pricing disparities and/or malicious selling behavior. For example, I am curious how the forum would respond to a marketplace listing for this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-LEGO-STAR-WARS-MILLENNIUM-FALCON-10179-1ST-EDITION-MISB-AFA-9-25-UCS-/221118362578?pt=Building_Toys_US&hash=item337bae73d2

So again, who are we trying to protect? Buyers or Sellers?

roxio

^ we'd be all over him for the price bring too high, but as we have no sales history (for graded 10179 sets on eBay, bricklink etc) who are we to dictate a price on a one off item?
Grading of sets has its own thread and I personally think the whole idea is crazy......but he only needs one person to meet the valuation.....

CCC

atkinsar said:

I applaud anyone who actually names a price on the sets they're selling around here ... I would much rather someone stated a high price than no price at all because it gives me something to work with. I have passed on countless threads selling sets that I'm after because I'm not interested in guessing the number the seller has in their head.

Been meaning to get that off my chest for a while.

I agree. The same should go for people saying "wanted".

There are countless threads where a potential buyer just says "Wanted NYCC/SDCC/Wherever exclusive." With no indication of what they are willing to pay for one.

prof1515

CCC said:

atkinsar said:

I applaud anyone who actually names a price on the sets they're selling around here ... I would much rather someone stated a high price than no price at all because it gives me something to work with. I have passed on countless threads selling sets that I'm after because I'm not interested in guessing the number the seller has in their head.

Been meaning to get that off my chest for a while.

I agree. The same should go for people saying "wanted".

There are countless threads where a potential buyer just says "Wanted NYCC/SDCC/Wherever exclusive." With no indication of what they are willing to pay for one.

I know I sometimes do this and usually it's because I've already stated the price earlier plus prices will rise over time negating any post with a definite price attached. It's a bit annoying when you state the price (let's just say $500) and someone messages with an outrageously insulting price suggestion of their own (say $200). It's like they don't even bother to read the suggested price or do any research. They just name a number they want to pay and then tell you, "I'm not interested in going any higher."

I actually had one person suggest to me that instead of paying $1000 for a MISB Cafe Corner, I could open it, throw out the box and sell it to them for $400 instead. Seriously (never mind that such a price isn't even reflective of the going used rate for that set).

Joseph

adammullins said:

again, who are we trying to protect? Buyers or Sellers?

I don't think it's quite that simple, but since you mentioned it, I think buyers already have a very good protection called common sense and that the gullible buyers who lack it would be much more likely to buy from ebay rather than here. If there are some who don't know to check ebay/bricklink also then sure you should put a note about price checking in the marketplace safety thread, but, imho, that's about all you can do.

BRC

Joseph said:

I don't think it's quite that simple, but since you mentioned it, I think buyers already have a very good protection called common sense and that the gullible buyers who lack it would be much more likely to buy from ebay rather than here.

Buying from here didn't help some of us either, @mrtonytj (a thief) was selling here.

Basically scammers and thieves are everywhere.

Joseph

^ Sadly that is true; while there certainly are a lot less scammers here there are always a few exceptions to the rule.
Though to be fair, I was talking about common sense protecting buyers from getting "ripped off" in the sense of paying too much for an item, not being scammed in that quote.

bobabricks

You can also add proof photos for trading I've recently used this site for sharing proof pics
http://photobucket.com/

monkeyhanger

Most people on here are very savvy consumers, so the possibility of getting ripped off is pretty low - how much responsibility do you want to take away from a potential buyer because they didn't do any research into what something is really worth? Here we are in the website equivalent of the Encyclopedia Brittanica of lego pricing. Anyone buying from here is already within a hugely useful Lego pricing resource.

Price is incredibly subjective, even when you only consider location of buyer/seller.

If I see what I consider to be an overpriced sell or unfair trade request, I am torn between thinking "if you buy that you're a mug who hasn't done their research" and wanting to let any potential buyers know they can buy it cheaper at X store.

If I come across someone buying something blindly in a shop without being educated as to what it can be bought for, i'll have a word in their shell (I just let someone know yesterday that was buying some end grain preserver for £14 a tin in Screwfix that the local timberyard down the road had it for £7.60, as i'd recently bought some), but here I think we should all be aware of what something is worth.

romanstar

Hi, being a relative newbie here and done a couple of transactions with fellow members that went great,i noticed some posters on marketplace mentioning something called 'drop shopping from [email protected]' Can some kind person tell me what it means so i can be aware of it.many thanks

nerick906

@romanstar drop shopping from [email protected] means ordering from Lego shop at home to be delivered to different than domestic address.
Example I will be swapping with you and I will offer you things that I will buy from [email protected] for you to be delivered to your destination, and you will give me your goods shipped to me.

roxio

^which is the good side of drop-shipping and can work very well.
The bad side example would be you order a brand new set of ebay for under rrp, it is shipped to you direct from [email protected], the seller has purchased with a stolen credit card and drop-shipped directly to you. They disappear with your money and you are left with stolen goods and banned from [email protected] when the credit card fraud is reported.

romanstar

Thanks for the advice,never heard of it.Think i will stay clear and just keep it simple:-)

bobabricks

I never got why drop shipping is bad (unless it's illegal) you get something worth what you gave or payed to the giver/seller but if you can tell me why it's so bad it would help ;)

Shib

Because it's normally done with stolen credit cards etc which means you are essentially handling stolen goods

vitreolum

It's not the drop shipping part that's the problem, but how the items are paid for by the seller.

bobabricks

OK, I get it now. Thanks ;)