STOP & SEARCH: Lego Shoplifting Suspicions

roguetrader1987

This morning I took all my (mostly empty) Series 6 CMF bags with biro scribbled on the dots to Argos so I could work out what ones I needed. It was too much hassle to work out so I popped them back in my backpack, this the assistant saw. After my X4 CMF purchase I left only to be strictly stopped on the street by a plain clothes cop/security guy who searched and questioned me over 4 missing CMF bags from Argos!

It was amusing and of course embarrassing seeing him read all the packets I'd scribbled on: "Clockwork Robot, Space Girl..." etc. Whoops, next time I'll explain to the assistant what I'm up to or bring a receipt. My shoplifter style coat did not do any favours! (I really found no helpful series 6 dot code sheet out there).

Has anyone else been suspected of stealing Lego? Or been as dumb as me?!

Moved to Everything Else LEGO: YC 4-26-12

cynthilina

Yeah I got stopped in a Kmart and a Hastings for doing the dot search on the packs. I told them that I was looking for certain ones and i was told that was cheating. I said its not cheating if they make it available, then I was asked to leave.

richo

I find the idea of extensive pack searching quite embaressing. Add in the threat of erroneous arrest and it's right off the table for me now. lol

BrickDancer

^Same here. I did it for S5 & S6 but not going for it on S7. Will just buy as a complete series off Ebay or Bricklink and save the time.

caperberry

Oh that made me laugh... the humiliating biro! What did he think you'd done with the actual figs, eaten them?

I haven't been accused of stealing lego, but I did witness a shoplifting in Argos once. This guy brazenly walked into the display window and used a hacksaw to sever the security cable off a dvd player and then pushed past me saying in a cockney accent, "nicking it! nicking it! nicking it!"

LegoFanTexas

Argos is a UK retailer, are they not?

What are the rules over there for being stopped by security? Here in the US, the rules for stopping someone suspected of shoplifting are quite strict:

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/security/shoplifting.html

You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter conceal, carry away or convert your merchandise
You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store

Of course, all that being said, many stores won't try and physically detain someone due to the risk of liability for store employees getting hurt by a shoplifter who doesn't want to stop. What they will do is have someone follow them until they get into their car, with the police on the way, to get an ID or a number plate.

Redbullgivesuwind

^I just remember being told not to stop anyone who tried to steal stuff as it was better to lose it than a member of staff. Never been taken with a suspion of shop lifting before. Although I can see why they would think the op was. Would be better to explain next time.

madforLEGO

I worked at a retail store many years ago.. the security could not doing anything until the person left the store and even then couldn't really 'detain' them.. I think most stores just write off the loss or put the 'beepers' up.

LegoFanTexas

^ There have been some high profile incidents in the US over the past 10+ years that have cut back on the number of "stop" orders from retail businesses.

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/2003_3643765/bennigan-s-restaurant-sued-in-death-of-waitress.html

In short, a waitress at a restaurant had 4 people skip out on a $131 check. The waitress followed them out into the parking lot, only to be run over by them in their car, killing her.

The restaurant was sued by the family of the dead employee, which sure costs a lot more money than a $131 skipped check.

http://www.aubreyturner.org/posts/a_senseless_waste_of_human_life/

More details if you like... but in short, the risk is just not worth it.

LegoFanTexas

^

During an interview hours after her arrest, Ms. Henson told Detective Johnson that she asked Ms. Foust why she kept driving after hitting the waitress.

According to the detective, Ms. Foust answered, “What the … [expletive] was I supposed to do, stop the car?”

Sad, that we have people like that in the world...

LegoFanTexas

^

Ok, one more follow up...

Ms. Foust, the driver of the car that killed the waitress... was sentenced to 30 years in prison for murder...

Personally, I think that is what she deserved, what a senseless waste of life...

dougts

^ yeah. murdering someone over $131 shows a seriously impaired lack of impulse control, or possibly even a sociopathic personality

andyscouse

@LegoFanTexas
Yes, it is. Nothing quite comparable to it in the US. You'd go in, and write 6-digit catalogue numbers on a slip, hand them to the cashier, who'd have someone send out back for the stuff and they'd bring it out and you'd pay for it.

Sort of like it is if you order something from Walmart (online, say) and when it's in, you go to the back to pick it up ... but for Argos, this is on a walk-in, right now basis.

I've been out of the UK 16 years now, so maybe it's all different now!

caperberry

@andyscouse Nope, Argos is as depressing as ever ;o) I think the only change is that you can now pay a machine instead of a machine-like cashier.

Redbullgivesuwind

@LegoFanTexas I dont think anything that bad has happened in the UK. I like to think its cause companies at least have a small sense of humanity and want employees alive :-)

Argos is the narnia of dreams for me with the laminated book to catch the tears of joy when I go in there.

Sits and waits for some one to get it....

andyscouse

^ get it! Ah, those fond memories of Argos (and Index - is that still going?)

Redbullgivesuwind

good at least someone does lol! Cant go wrong with a bit of Bill Bailey.

Sadly no Index has gone. Its just Argos now and BHS they are still going.

brickmatic

@Redbullgivesuwind Oh maybe not the same exact thing that happened in the US, but shoplifting still results in death on occasion in the UK. And £35 is less than $131.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1313952/Security-man-killed-shoplifter-Guard-choked-death-35-perfume.html

Redbullgivesuwind

wow that does surprise me. Although the security guard sounds a barrel of fun

Brewer51

Argos is a UK retailer, are they not?

What are the rules over there for being stopped by security? Here in the US, the rules for stopping someone suspected of shoplifting are quite strict:

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/security/shoplifting.html

You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter conceal, carry away or convert your merchandise
You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store

Of course, all that being said, many stores won't try and physically detain someone due to the risk of liability for store employees getting hurt by a shoplifter who doesn't want to stop. What they will do is have someone follow them until they get into their car, with the police on the way, to get an ID or a number plate.

Not sure if you're still interested in the answer but...

For a policeman to stop/search some-one in the street, all they need is 'reasonable suspicion'. Seeing some-one put empty bags in their backpack like the OP did probably amounts to reasonable suspicion, at least in a policeman's eyes.

If it was a security guard, I'm pretty sure they shouldn't have stop/search powers. I think they have to accost the suspected shoplifter and wait for a policeman. Could be wrong about that though.

roguetrader1987

Oh yeah I caused 'reasonable suspicion' ha ha and the biro marks on my pre-bought unopened packs saved my bacon.

He was forceful though in tone (probably hates his job but maybe it pays well) and this town is scag central with loads of druggie shoplifters. They like to crack down on them. I really looked the part unfortunately with a beard growing and my choice of army surplus hooded jacket....

I'm going back next week to embarrass the assistant some more for mis-grassing me. Not her fault though. The guy was a little crazy to stop CMF theft.

brickmatic

^ He was referring the the store's right to detain you (That's right, store employees such as security guards have the legal right to physically detain you if they have probable cause.) See http://lifehacker.com/5853355/know-your-rights-if-a-store-detains-you-for-shoplifting

Brewer51

Oh yeah I caused 'reasonable suspicion' ha ha and the biro marks on my pre-bought unopened packs saved my bacon.

He was forceful though in tone (probably hates his job but maybe it pays well) and this town is scag central with loads of druggie shoplifters. They like to crack down on them. I really looked the part unfortunately with a beard growing and my choice of army surplus hooded jacket....

I'm going back next week to embarrass the assistant some more for mis-grassing me. Not her fault though. The guy was a little crazy to stop CMF theft.

My city centre is full of scragheads too, so I can sympathise. I imagine both the police and Westfield's security get bored of the druggies, drunks and theives that come in and so I'm not surprised that he acted a little over-zealous. Doesn't make it right though.

SirKevbags

I once picked up a box of After Eights in Woolies and was then looking for something else. Completely forgot I was holding them until standing in the que for a coffee somewhere else.

caperberry

The guy was a little crazy to stop CMF theft.

I wish the government would crack down harder on CMF theft. Let's make it an election issue ;o)

DaddyDeuce

^ He was referring the the store's right to detain you (That's right, store employees such as security guards have the legal right to physically detain you if they have probable cause.) See http://lifehacker.com/5853355/know-your-rights-if-a-store-detains-you-for-shoplifting

This is generally known in the United States as "shopkeeper's privilege" or "merchant's privilege" . Because there are fifty states with fifty different sets of laws it is dangerous to generalize. In many states, however, "detain" has a very narrow meaning. It means they can stop you where you are to question you or to wait for police, but they cannot make you move to another location against your will. So if you are "detained" in front of the store they can stand there and ask you questions but cannot make you come back into the store with them.

As an alternative there is simply citizen's arrest. Generally speaking you can arrest anybody if you have witnessed them commit a crime.

LegoFanTexas

This is generally known in the United States as "shopkeeper's privilege" or "merchant's privilege". Because there are fifty states with fifty different sets of laws it is dangerous to generalize.

These are wise words, the laws vary GREATLY from state to state as to what you can and cannot do. This is true in many things, not just this.

In many states, however, "detain" has a very narrow meaning. It means they can stop you where you are to question you or to wait for police, but they cannot make you move to another location against your will. So if you are "detained" in front of the store they can stand there and ask you questions but cannot make you come back into the store with them.

Another point is that if you try to walk away and your store employee physically tries to hold the person, you're almost certain to face a lawsuit, regardless of the outcome of the criminal case.

Yes, in the United States, you can be found guilty of a crime, then sue the victim for it and win. Yea, we're weird...

As an alternative there is simply citizen's arrest. Generally speaking you can arrest anybody if you have witnessed them commit a crime.

This term is used way too much...

Generally in the United States, a person may make a "citizen's arrest" if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police.

Since most shoplifting cases are misdemeanors, the average person can't do a thing. In addition, American Citizens do not carry the authority or enjoy the legal protections held by police officers, and can be liable in both civil and criminal law for their actions.

That is why so many larger companies hire off-duty police officers for security and other events, because they keep their "police officer" powers even when off-duty and can be in uniform and do everything they normally would do when on-duty, except now they work for the company instead of the city. This is, however, regulated and such assignments are controlled by the police dept, you can't just hire a cop off the street, you have to go through the dept.

mrseatle

I wish the Wal-mart near me would crack down. Their Lego section is a mess, with of opened boxes and empty minifig packets littered everywhere. They don't even bother to clean them up as there was a torn open Hogwarts on the shelf for months.

madforLEGO

^

Ok, one more follow up...

Ms. Foust, the driver of the car that killed the waitress... was sentenced to 30 years in prison for murder...

Personally, I think that is what she deserved, what a senseless waste of life...

One of those times where the punishment should match the crime and the perp should have been run off by a car... or Semi.. yeah Semi works better.

madforLEGO

@LegoFanTexas
Yes, it is. Nothing quite comparable to it in the US. You'd go in, and write 6-digit catalogue numbers on a slip, hand them to the cashier, who'd have someone send out back for the stuff and they'd bring it out and you'd pay for it.

Kinda sounded like a bank robbery when I first read that :-)

We used to have that here. It was called Service Merchandise, but fell out of favor.. in the good old days of Toys R Us they would do that with high price items, video games and such, you would take a slip of paper on the shelf, go pay, then go to a room past the cashiers with the stamp on it and pick up your video game or whatnot... I dunno why, but I just have fond memories of that.

LegoFanTexas

^ Oh gosh, I remember Service Merchandise!!! Now I feel OLD!!! :)

We also had a store called BEST (not BestBuy, this was general goods, pre-Walmart days). Got a lot of Transformers and such as a kid in that store...

DaddyDeuce

Generally in the United States, a person may make a "citizen's arrest" if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police.

Since most shoplifting cases are misdemeanors, the average person can't do a thing.

This is another one of those "it varies by state" things. In California, for example, citizens can arrest for misdemeanors committed in their presence.

Interestingly, a California police officer cannot arrest a person for committing a misdemeanor if the officer did not witness it, but can arrest that same person "under the authority" of a citizen who did.

(Using California as an example above because it is the most populous state).

I myself have had a police officer transport me to a person who was being detained, for the purposes of me personally placing them under citizens arrest, after which the police took them into custody and booked them (this happened in Nevada).

I'm surprised that Texas doesn't allow misdemeanor citizen's arrest given what I know about that state, but I'll defer to LFT's knowledge since he lives there.

LostInTranslation

@Kevbags: I'm shocked and appalled by this revelation! You took five-finger discount on some After-Eights!

LegoFanTexas

^^ Interesting, didn't know that about California...

And of course the law in Texas, I learned on the Internet, so it could be wrong too! :)

Keep in mind that in Texas, you'd be really foolish to be in plain-clothes and trying to physically detain someone outside of a store. And that is all I'll say about that... :)

Redbullgivesuwind

^In a state with one of the highest gun ownerships id have thought you would be mad to rob some where in the first place :-D.

evantyler

@LegoFanTexas WOW, I remember BEST. I used to beg my parents to take me there and Children's Palace in Huntington, WV because they had the best selection of LEGO. I remember the Service Merchandise catalogs, too, when my sister and I would make our Xmas lists in December. Definitely feel old now...okay, back to work. :)

caperberry

@andyscouse - FYI I'd always be willing to trade Lego for peanut butter M&Ms - can't get them here even in the M&M shop in Leicester Square?!? Madness!!

Four floors of utter tat and they don't have peanut M&Ms????

Which reminds me. I walked past there one evening just in time to see a child throwing up multicoloured vomit.

legomyLEGGO

@andyscouse, I haven't seen the word associated with anything negative, but given it's definition, I can't say it couldn't be. Usually Ive seen it used with forest or furniture/decor - lush forest or lush furnishings.

Going along with the hijacking or shoplifting (lol) of the thread with the M&M's talk, I have to say that peanut butter chocolate (red bags) are my fave. I don't like mint. I've tried raspberry M&M's - I wasn't a fan.

Legoboy

The last time I was in the NY (10 years ago), they had these Starburst something or another. They were hard boiled sweets and similar to Starburst Flipsters we had briefly in the Uk except they didn't have a 'creamy' taste to one side. We bought a massive bag of them (tropical falvour I think) from a pharmacy and in fact still have the empty bag somewhere only I can't remember what they are called, ore even if they are still available.

Anyway - the best sweets/candy ever!!!

LostInTranslation

umm, guys the food stuff got culled and moved here:
http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/4523/tangents-on-food

and just for the record, I'm after peanut BUTTER m&ms. not peanut. This is a very important distinction.

Legoboy

After we started typing by the looks of things. Apologies though.

roguetrader1987

(Ha ha, I loved the candy/sweets tangent, this tickled me:
@caperberry "Which reminds me. I walked past there one evening just in time to see a child throwing up multicoloured vomit."

I'm just glad I was not alone in the CMF theft suspicion... glad I didn't ask about real theft!

brickmatic

@LegoFanTexas
Yes, it is. Nothing quite comparable to it in the US. You'd go in, and write 6-digit catalogue numbers on a slip, hand them to the cashier, who'd have someone send out back for the stuff and they'd bring it out and you'd pay for it.

Kinda sounded like a bank robbery when I first read that :-)

We used to have that here. It was called Service Merchandise, but fell out of favor.. in the good old days of Toys R Us they would do that with high price items, video games and such, you would take a slip of paper on the shelf, go pay, then go to a room past the cashiers with the stamp on it and pick up your video game or whatnot... I dunno why, but I just have fond memories of that.

Never heard of Service Merchandise before, but they use this same method at the B&H superstore in New York City. You go in and have to request anything you want to purchase from a sales rep. You pick everything up and pay for it when you're done. Since the store sells a lot of high-end merchandise and they have a high volume of customers at the store, I suspect they do this to keep theft to a minimum. In fact, if stores want to reduce stealing by buyers counter service instead of self service (i.e. when customers handle the goods themselves prior to purchase) is the way to go. Interestingly, grocery stores used to be very different from how they are today. We're used to the idea that you go in with your shopping cart and pick things out yourself, but around the early 1900s it used to be all asking for product at a counter and having the shop keeper bring it to you. From Wikipedia:

In the early days of retailing, all products generally were fetched by an assistant from shelves behind the merchant's counter while customers waited in front of the counter and indicated the items they wanted. Also, most foods and merchandise did not come in individually wrapped consumer-sized packages, so an assistant had to measure out and wrap the precise amount desired by the consumer. This also offered opportunities for social interaction: many regarded this style of shopping as "a social occasion" and would often "pause for conversations with the staff or other customers." These practices were by nature very labor-intensive and therefore also quite expensive. The shopping process was slow, as the number of customers who could be attended to at one time was limited by the number of staff employed in the store.

The concept of a self-service grocery store was developed by American entrepreneur Clarence Saunders and his Piggly Wiggly stores. His first store opened in Memphis, Tennessee, in 1916. Saunders was awarded a number of patents for the ideas he incorporated into his stores. The stores were a financial success and Saunders began to offer franchises. The Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company (A&P) was another successful early grocery store chain in Canada and the United States, and became common in North American cities in the 1920s. The general trend in retail since then has been to stock shelves at night so that customers, the following day, can obtain their own goods and bring them to the front of the store to pay for them. Although there is a higher risk of shoplifting, the costs of appropriate security measures ideally will be outweighed by reduced labor costs.

Pitfall69

I used to work at a Service Merchandise and the toy section was no different than any other retail store. I was in charge of the toy section and a cashier. The larger items and electronics would have to be grabbed from the warehouse but Legos and Action Figures you could just grab.

My brother n law is a manager of a small camera store. A person walked in and asked to see an expensive camera. The person took off with the camera and my brother n law ran after him. After several blocks the guy gave up and gave back the camera. Because he works at a small shop he said $3,100 would come out of his paycheck. He wasn't letting that happen.

My mother works at a Walmart and theft happens every day. They are instructed not to pursue the offender. A big problem is employees helping other criminals commit the crimes. When this happens, Walmart let's the activity go on for awhile until they have enough evidence to press charges.

Pitfall69

Theft contributes to price increases and WE are the ones who end up paying more than we should for products

Walmart used to have a zero tolerance shop lifting policy. Now they only prosecute over $25 of theft and they focus more on the employees because they steal alot more than the average shoplifter.

LegoFanTexas

^ Your bother-in-law is brave... and foolish... IMHO...

Regarding Walmart, it wouldn't make sense to make an issue over a $1 stolen candy bar, kids put those in their pocket all the time, cost of doing business.

It isn't "fair", but "fair" often doesn't enter into business decisions.

LegobrandonCP

^ I agree. I was taught never to chase after someone for whatever reason. Pitfall's brother could of have been seriously injured. What if the thief had a gun or knife? But the camera is $3,000 so I don't blame him for chasing after it.

nkx1

To answer the original poster's question, I was at Walmart buying some 50% off sets after x-mas. They were big and didn't fit in a bag, so I just carried them. The door lady was busy with another customer or two, and I didn't feet like waiting, so I simply went around them through another door.

Next thing I know, I was being surrounded by at least four employees who demanded to see my receipt. In CA, there is no legal obligation to show a receipt (exception being membership-based stores). So I declined to show them becuase I felt it was quite rude of them to surround me like a was a shoplifter. I proceeded to walk out, and they were about to physically grab me- they were also physically blocking me from leaving. I warned that legally it is assault if they touched me, and that I would probably press charges if they did (wife is an attorney, so it would be no problem to initiate legal action and subpoena the in-store video if I really wanted to pursue the issue).

As it was, I had to get home to work (I work from home). So I really couldn't afford to waste a lot of my time dealing with this. I caved and showed my receipt and was on my way.

I know it sort of seems like I was the jerk here, and that could be true. However, it was quite offensive to have people surrounding and imprisoning me in the store (effectively accusing me of shoplifting, which I was not doing). I was simply reacting to their inappropriate actions.

starfire2

Maybe it's just me but I always hold up my receipt as I an walking out the door. I think refusing to show your receipt, is a sign to them that you may be trying to steal. I use reusable bags when grocery shopping, so I'm used to them asking for the reciept.

nkx1

^I did have the receipt in plain view. They just wanted to see it up close.

LegoFanTexas

^ I agree. I was taught never to chase after someone for whatever reason. Pitfall's brother could of have been seriously injured. What if the thief had a gun or knife? But the camera is $3,000 so I don't blame him for chasing after it.

Is your life worth $3,000?