Speculation: New Castle factions?

FireFox31

Why did Lego create new Castle faction shields in their recent homages to the classic theme?  Could they be planning a new wave of sets to feature these factions?

We see the "white falcons" at the in-store Build A Mini Bar, the "pink crown" in the Series 23 CMF, and "pink crown" along with "green chevron" and "yellow clover" in #10305 Lion Knight's Castle dining room.

Or are these existing factions which I missed over the years?

jason1976

The 3 shields in the dining room and the pink crown in series 23 CMS are from the yellow castle #375-2 / #6075-2 - have a look at https://images.brickset.com/sets/large/375-2.jpg?201011130243

madforLEGO

YEah, really hoping some of these other shields make an appearance in the BaM bars...

FireFox31

Oh wow, what a fantastic reference.  I can see why some of them were lost to time.  "The yellow clovers" sounds quite like something to be stepped on.

CCC

I also wouldn't read anything into the appearance of any new symbol or colours. Think about what the CMF have shown us before. Things like elves with a stag head shield, forest maiden with the tree, heroic knight with the grey crown, evil knight with the boar, ... Sometimes they like to design new insignia, sometimes they reuse old ones but change the colour schemes.

jason1976

CCC said:

I also wouldn't read anything into the appearance of any new symbol or colours. Think about what the CMF have shown us before. Things like elves with a stag head shield, forest maiden with the tree, heroic knight with the grey crown, evil knight with the boar, ... Sometimes they like to design new insignia, sometimes they reuse old ones but change the colour schemes.

Yeah I was thinking the "white falcons" are more than likely just updated versions of the black falcons insignia.

Back in the day, both the Black Falcons and the Lion Knights had inconsistent dress codes and different coloured shields (looks like this carries on to this day with the queen's shield in #10305 too)! 

andhe

FireFox31 said:

Why did Lego create new Castle faction shields in their recent homages to the classic theme?  Could they be planning a new wave of sets to feature these factions?

We see the "white falcons" at the in-store Build A Mini Bar, the "pink crown" in the Series 23 CMF, and "pink crown" along with "green chevron" and "yellow clover" in #10305 Lion Knight's Castle dining room.

Or are these existing factions which I missed over the years?

The pink crown, green chevron and yellow clover are all from the original #375 yellow castle.

They seem to have left out the maltese cross.

NM10

jason1976 said:

The 3 shields in the dining room and the pink crown in series 23 CMS are from the yellow castle #375-2 / #6075-2 - have a look at https://images.brickset.com/sets/large/375-2.jpg?201011130243

There's also a mini version of the yellow castle in one of the rooms of the new castle. 

MaffyD

andhe said:

They seem to have left out the maltese cross.

That's potentially too religious-looking, I imagine.

Brickchap

Does the inclusion of updated prints for Castle shields in the 90th anniversary set mean we will get more Castle sets? On it's own, not necessarily.

However, depending on how well the Blacksmith, 3 in 1 Castle, and the new 90th anniversary castle sell, maybe we will get more sets for different factions in the future.

Interestingly Lego officially included Nexo Knights as apart of it's history of the castle theme. Now Nexo Knights did pretty well from my understanding, it was only expected to last 3 years (similar to Chima and others), which it did. The first wave in particular seemed reasonably popular and the sets did sell (compared to say Vidiyo or Hidden Side where the sets lay unwanted on shelves for months even at a discount).

My point in mentioning this is that I would like to call BS on those haters who say there's no market for a Castle/Medieval theme anymore.

Would it become an evergreen theme? Probably not. But I see no reason as to why Lego couldn't give us another castle theme, most likely as another one of these 'short' themes that aren't trying to overtake Ninjago or Star Wars for example.

I personally would love a more realistic theme like Kingdoms, although I understand that may not sell as well. There is however definitely a big market for fantasy castle stuff. Consider all the films and games for various age groups that have become immensely popular such as LoTR, Hobbit, Legend of Zelda, GoT, Vikings (the TV show, as well as learning about viking history in general), Northmen seemed to do pretty good in cinemas, Netflix has also done at least a couple of 'realistic' (sort of) films about English kings. There are heaps of games based around medieval fantasy, and interestingly these are particularly popular in the Asian market (which Lego is desperately trying to access). These games use European Medieval history as a starting point, and then add various fantastical elements to them.

That's for a fully fledged castle theme. One thing I do really think Lego could do is an 18+ 'Castle' theme. (and maybe something similar for Pirates). We already have the Modular Collection, Fairground Collection and Winter Village collection. These are all themes that have a much larger AFOL base then they do kids or non-FOL adults, but Lego still makes them and they are very popular.

Maybe kids aren't as interested in a castle theme. Fine, make an AFOL targeted one then. I doubt many kids out there are desperate for a life size Lego plant, or a massive model of the Titanic, or a huge world map that doesn't even show countries. Yet Lego still made those sets and they still sold because there is a market for them. There is definitely a market for castle, Lego just needs to appreciate that.

For an 18+ theme, each year we could get maybe a big set (similar to the modulars) and/or maybe a couple of smaller ones as well. Each year will be a certain faction, and their 'big set' could be their main base. But rather than just give us a '90th anniversary castle' type set every year (big square grey castle), give us different architectural and cultural styles for each faction.

Forestmen could have a very organic hideout/base set, with lots of plant elements and interesting techniques for creating trees and so forth.

The next year could be Wolfpack for example, which I would envisage as a German or Hungarian style castle, maybe on an island in a lake.

Fright Knights could have a Transylvanian castle ('vampire castle/spooky castle whatever you want to call it), a tall dark tower on a mountain (or representation of one), maybe even with a brick built lightning bolt striking it or the Witch is summoning magic etc. etc.

The yellow clover faction could have a French chateau type castle, white with round turrets, maybe blue conical roofs (think Disney movies), maybe with an emphasis more on life and culture rather than a defensive military installation.

Then we could have smaller sets maybe focusing on peasants with sets like Medieval Market Village or a medieval farm (sort of like Mill Village raid but more farm based). And most importantly, keep things interesting with unique ideas like a jousting tournament, or a medieval ship or a mine for example. Battle packs with each faction could be a really cool GWP for each big set, or as a separate set, sort of like how we had City People Packs each year (for a while anyway). It would also be cool (and help a Lego castle theme) if we got more siege engines, either as apart of big sets or sold more individually maybe as apart of said battle packs.

FollowsClosely

^ Your optimism is setting you up for disappointment. ^

FollowsClosely

I actually think that us castle fans are a smaller segment that we think. The longevity of the Blacksmith shop will be a good indicator, like Pirates of Barracuda Bay.

Also it appears that LEGO focuses its energy and production on bringing in new customers and new revenue more so that keeping existing customers. I use to spend $1,000 a year on LEGO, but now just $100 a year. I think LEGO Groups strategy is a good one, as it is hard to keep customers who have hundreds of thousands of pieces engaged, excited and eager to buy more.  

But I will be buying 10305.

Speedman29

FollowsClosely said: The longevity of the Blacksmith shop will be a good indicator,

Not necessarily. Blacksmith Shop was a rare day one purchase for me, but I have zero interest in the Castle theme, I just liked the look and design of the building.

There may be crossovers in kids of the 70s/80s but I was 100% Space fan back then, never owned a Castle set and never wanted to tbh.

Brickchap

@FollowsClosely You're making the same wrong assumption Lego does. Namely that only nostalgic AFOLs who grew up in the 70s and 80s like castle or pirates. That's nonsense, as I thought I made rather clear in my original comment.

'Lego Castle' or 'Lego Pirates' themselves may not be as huge as they once were, but their subject matter still is. Kids still love pirates and fantasy medieval stuff. So do heaps of adults, especially the latter. As I've said, these markets may not be as huge as Star Wars, but they are there and they are still big.

Like I already said, how many people (either existing Lego fans or people not currently interested) have been sitting around longing for Lego to make a giant world map out of 1x1 tiles that's a pain to build and doesn't show proper countries? Not many. BUT LEGO STILL MADE THE SET.

Why can't they make at least some castle/pirates sets then?

Indeed, if they do that they may attract more non-Lego fans who either remember those themes as a kid (but may not have become an AFOL), or people who are just interested in the subject matter. @Speedman29 is not a die hard castle fan. He doesn't even like castle. But he still thought the Blacksmith was a cool set and bought it. Lego's LoTR and Hobbit sets undoubtedly attracted lots of previously non-Lego fans who are LoTR and Hobbit fans. The list goes on.

The problem has never been the subject matter. It's Lego's marketing strategy. Take Ford cars. The Model T Ford was one of the most popular and owned cars in the world at one time. Then sales started falling. Now did Ford just sit around and say "Well there's no market for cars anymore I'm going to build toilets". No! His son came up with the Ford Model A and Ford's sales went up again.

The problem with Lego's castle and pirate themes was that like the Model T Ford they 'only came in black' and all looked the same. Even in my lifetime (which is still quite young), the Castle themes were exactly the same. They just changed the Lion Knights from red to blue and released the same prison carriage, the same outpost tower, the same 'big' King's Castle (couldn't even come up with a new name). No wonder kids lost interest. Pirates as I always say suffered because despite the theme being based on sailing ships, you could only ever buy one pirate ship. Then you were left to having battles with a rowboat and muskets or maybe some miserable couple of walls Lego called a fort.

Nexo Knights was a good and fresh attempt at a new medieval theme, and it was pretty popular. I think a more realistic (though still fantasy) theme would still work, if not for kids then certainly for adults. As I said before, I doubt in the grand scheme of things the modular buildings are Lego's most popular theme, but Lego still makes them.

560Heliport

#6274
#6271
#6280
These are not rowboats...
#6276
#6277
Rather more than just a couple of miserable walls...

Brickchap

@560Heliport True, I was referring to Pirates in the 21st century, like 2009 I think it was and 2015.

560Heliport

@Brickchap Yeah, I will agree that they were somewhat disappointing. There really should have been either a more substantial fort like #6276 or a proper ship for the soldiers.

Brickchap

@560Heliport Absolutely. I guess my overall argument could be summarised as "Lego got lazy" or "they rested on their laurels" basically just assuming that because it was Pirates, or Castle, people would buy it. I think one of the reasons Ninjago does so well is because each year Lego comes up with something different. It's still Ninjago, and they do often return to 'original' Ninjago, but it's not like Castle/Pirates where they are just releasing a Kai speeder and Destiny's Bounty every year (with a very similar design).

It's a bit of shame actually that almost any new idea (whether that could be applied to Pirates, Castle, or a whole new theme) goes into Ninjago, whether that's underwater, sky pirates, islanders etc.

Just back on pirates, I bought every set in the 2015 wave (apart from Brick Bounty) and despite that only ended up with about 5 Imperial soldiers (there was also an officer and the Governor). That's barely enough to man the original Eldorado Fortress (one set), which I think had about 4 or 5 soldiers anyway.

Another example (probably preaching to the converted here but you get the point). So I had most of the Kingdoms sets; I had the big King's Castle and then a small set I forget the name of. It was a gate and two mini towers (Dragon Castle) and it came with a Lion Knights ballista. That was all I had for the Dragon knights. They did come out with a Dragon Knights base I think the year after but it was more of a gatehouse on it's own rather than a castle per say.

In short, same problem as Pirates. One side has a big base and transport/weaponry, while the other side is very much less represented (both for available soldiers/knights/pirates etc.) and weaponry/transport/base) and it is therefore difficult to have battles.

MaffyD

Speedman29 said:

FollowsClosely said: The longevity of the Blacksmith shop will be a good indicator,

Not necessarily. Blacksmith Shop was a rare day one purchase for me, but I have zero interest in the Castle theme, I just liked the look and design of the building.

There may be crossovers in kids of the 70s/80s but I was 100% Space fan back then, never owned a Castle set and never wanted to tbh.

I was the same, only it was 3x medieval castles. I never wanted any castles growing up, only space (I got mainly Town sets for years and years, but that's another story). But the look of that creator set, and how it could be rebuilt into 3 very different castle-y buildings that could attach together, and the sheer number of amazing MOCs for 1x 2x & 3x the set made it very appealing. I won't buy another castle set now except for #10305 'Take My Money' (I see what you did there @FollowsClosely :-) and hopefully get the Forest GWP at the same time. I'll be content then.

Besides, I've already got Helm's Deep...