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How do I deal with this Amazon scam buyer?

Si_UKNZSi_UKNZ NZMember Posts: 4,179
edited January 2012 in Buying & Selling Topics
I sent a sealed Emerald night to this buyer (One I'd bought directly from TLG and had no damage) and got this email back ...
==
I have just received the train set however the box has many scratches on it and the both sides of the box is taped. This does not look like a new set and i am very disappointed considering the amount of money i have spent and the retail price was £70.00.
this is a present for a collector but i cant give this as a gift as the box has scratch indented marks all over

I have purchased Lego before and it has never been taped.

Please can you let me know when and how i can return this item? or if you have any other new sets that are not damaged
==
.. any thoughts on how I should respond to this seller? They seem to be clearly trying to scam me, but not sure what I can do.
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Comments

  • collect_thatcollect_that Kidderminster, EnglandMember Posts: 1,312
    They got ya mate? I got a feeling if you were to get this back it would'nt be complete, regardless of box condition, sounds like they opened it! I don't need to ask if you sent it well protected. It will just a case of your word against his? Buyer always has more power in any transaction.

    Only fair way to respond wouldn't be legal!!


  • Si_UKNZSi_UKNZ NZMember Posts: 4,179
    could I do a small claim for fraud?
    lodge a dispute with amazon?
    take it up with the parcel company as tampered with?
    report it to the police?

    Im the kind of person who will pursue things like this on principle.
  • bor2112bor2112 Member Posts: 289
    ^I would definitely lodge a complaint with Amazon before he does.

    Stinks because you don't want it back! He will have damaged box just to prove point.

    Good luck with this. It is the few swindlers that dirty the pool for the rest of us.
  • y2joshy2josh Member Posts: 2,002
    I don't know how Amazon works, especially since buyers don't receive feedback, but on eBay, in the one instance where I had a buyer try to scam me, my feedback score went a long way in eBay dismissing the case outright. I'm not sure if Amazon has any similar function in place, though.
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Chicagoland USMember Posts: 9,349
    Kinda funny..
    'Both sides are taped' because that is how LEGO ships them..
    Tell him to take photos of the item and send them to you. If it looks like the seals were tampered with Id tell him tough luck..
  • collect_thatcollect_that Kidderminster, EnglandMember Posts: 1,312
    You need proof! But other than shipping receipts tp prove delivery and the fact he has stated receivership in his email, how would you prove you didn't send a tampered or mis-advertised set??
    You could lodge a dispute with Amazon but again, his word vs yours, they might take into consideration your selling history but they don't have much clout from past experience.

    You could claim from the shipping company, which might seem your best bet and would most likely result in a refund if pursued, but buyer gets what he wants at no consequence. Police wouldn't care I dont think, they can't even catch criminals.
  • toyz4metoyz4me Member Posts: 7
    Amazon will MORE then likely side with the buyer. And most of what everyone says above me will ring true, it would come back in maybe even worse condition then he originally claimed. (((

    Sorry I didn't have a working solution for ya.
  • collect_thatcollect_that Kidderminster, EnglandMember Posts: 1,312
    But you shouldn't back down Si, take as many steps as you can, even if fruitless, but inform buyer of actions being taken, document everything. He might be scared into backing down as most scammers I've come across do when you fight back. It's a pain but make him aware you are going the distance on this!!
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    Amazon often has higher selling prices than eBay, and this is why... The buyer is almost always right on Amazon, it is a poor venue for part time sellers because of this.

    It sounds like this is in the UK, where the laws are different, but if it were in the USA, the buyer can claim it is not as described and you have to take it back. Part of the price of selling on The River.

    In the US, if you refuse the return and the buyer files an AtoZ claim against you and the item is under $300, the buyer will get to keep the item and get his/her money back.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    Three points of wisdom for you...

    First, the customer might not always be right, but they are always the customer.

    Second, Amazon puts at the bottom of every customer service email, "Amazon.com, building Earth's most customer-centric company"

    Finally, "when did the planet where life is fair blow up and scatter its people all over the universe, and why did so many of them land here?"

    No, it isn't fair, but it happens and at the end of the day, you'll probably have to eat this one.
  • evileddie1313evileddie1313 Member Posts: 126
    ^^^^ I agree. Amazon is about the buyers, not the sellers. Unfortunately, it sounds like a smart crook. Maybe he has other complaints against other sellers that show a pattern. I know it's a pain in the @$$, but taking photos of your item before shipping it will protect you.
  • alijoezacalijoezac UK, NottinghamMember Posts: 521
    Ask buyer to e-mail photos, if they support what is stated, request it to be mailed back and make a claim on the delivery company, that's pretty much what Amazon asks you to do ...
  • starfire2starfire2 Phoenix AZMember Posts: 1,300
    I know it sounds dumb but how about in the future take a few pictures of the set before sending it, then if the buyer disputes the condition you would have proof otherwise. Kind of like when you rent an apartment. They say take pics before you move in and before you move out.
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,821
    Sorry to here this mate, hope it gets sorted. I would be concerned that any return would be missing key pieces, so might be best seeing if you can stick to your principles.

    richo
  • AlczervikAlczervik Member Posts: 93
    you might be able to use the receipt from tlg to prove the box was just bought bringing the likelyhood of damage down. I would also use your previous feedback as previous suggested, if you have other satisfied customers of the same kind of transactions, then it is logical that you are not lying. good luck hope it turns out good for you!
  • ChompersChompers Member Posts: 651
    Si, as others have said, sorry to hear this story. Its a sad fact of trading through the likes of eBay/Amazon that buyers get so much support and sellers get left to pick up the pieces.

    You must get pics emailed to you asap give the buyer a time limit to do this.

    Where did you post the EN to and which postal company did you use? fire an email to them about the damaged box.

    The sad fact will be that you will have to refund the buyer if they are not happy and can't prove the box was perfect before you sent it.

    It sometimes makes you wonder if reselling is really worth all the hassle :(
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    Taking pictures does not help you, first Amazon isn't interested... Second, how do you prove the pictures are of the set you actually shipped?

    At the end of the day, it is the buyer's word against the seller, and on Amazon, the buyer wins 99+% of the time.

    It is true that Amazon keeps track of scammer buyers and does actually kick buyers off the site (Google it, there are people who have been banned), but most often the buyer wins, and the buyer will win a lot before Amazon turns against them.

    Just the way it is, which is why I think small volume sellers should sell on eBay and Bricklink. Amazon is great for volume, but painful if you're a small seller.

    http://www.amazonsellercommunity.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=201728&tstart=15

    That thread is titled "This Ain't eBay" for good reason...

    That is a good place to start... The seller forums there are good, take a view of the first page or two of seller topics... not for the feint of heart. :)

    First bit of free advice for Americans selling there... USPS Delivery Confirmation is NOT considered proof of delivery. PayPal accepts it, Amazon does not. You need a signature for Amazon to reject a buyer claim of non-delivery.

    Again, there is a reason the selling prices are higher on Amazon, part of it is the higher fees (15%), part of it is the buyer-centric nature of the marketplace, you will end up eating some sales, no matter what you do.
  • richoricho Member Posts: 3,821
    edited January 2012
    I am not a reseller, but I have always thought that a good general tactic to avoid scam buyers is to maybe put items on ebay as buy it now or best offer (goes for anything of value). This way you can partly vet the buyer by seeing their feedback when they put an offer in. Can't think of any drawbacks of this, but maybe some experienced sellers can advise on whether this works in practice.
    Don't know much about the Amazon marketplace though.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    The problem is if someone clicks Buy It Now, you're committed to selling it.

    On Amazon, you can't pick buyers, and you can't block buyers either, you're required to sell to anyone who ponies up money.
  • johnsbricksjohnsbricks Member Posts: 210
    Unfortunately it is his word against yours and you are more likely to loose. Still report it to amazon and if you have a good rep then it may go in your favour....the other tactic is to tell the user that you are going to refer the case to the police as you have proof of contents or some other story and see if they back down.
  • atkinsaratkinsar Member Posts: 4,272
    edited January 2012
    I love this line from that amazon thread linked to by LFT...

    "An account is a privilege, not a right. If you think you are entitled to sell here, think again. In the TOS any seller can be terminated at any time for any reason."

    They really are tough on sellers sending a T-800 after them.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    Ha, I didn't think of it that way... the seller would not be saying "I'll be back" in that case! :)
  • drdavewatforddrdavewatford Hertfordshire, UKAdministrator Posts: 6,258
    Get them to ship it back to you ensuring they get proof of posting in the process, reimburse them for the item + return postage when it arrives back, and just put it down to experience I'm afraid. You have to wonder exactly what the buyer hopes to gain by all the messing around - he'll finish up with the money he started with and no Emerald Night, which is exactly how he was before he started wasting your time - but there's no understanding some people....
  • forumreaderforumreader Member Posts: 97
    I wouldn't take any premptive action, as the buyer hasn't done anything wrong, so far. If they are new to Lego (though they say they aren't) the way the company handles packaging on bigger sets (tape on the flaps, etc) might be unknown to them.

    If they are insistent on some form of a resolution, see if they will take a light refund. This might be better than having to handle relisting, shipping, etc. See how the numbers look for you.

    LFT is right, though, don't refuse the return if they ask, because an AtoZ against you lets them have their cake and eat it, at least in the U.S. If you do take a return, watch it like a hawk, though.
  • atkinsaratkinsar Member Posts: 4,272
    edited January 2012
    ^^ They may be pulling a fast one and swapping a battered box for a minty.
  • forumreaderforumreader Member Posts: 97
    edited January 2012
    Right, but if that's the case there isn't anything Amazon's going to be able to see from the transaction on their end to do anything about it. If the guy told Si in an e-mail that he was going to hot swap them, sure, he'd have something to preemptively send them, but right now all he has is a buyer inquiring about the condition of the item he received.
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,416
    ^^^ They could put [email protected]#% B*%$$# in the box and return that too!!
  • CoolsplashCoolsplash Member Posts: 935
    Well I read what everyone has added on this thread but I would like to share something on same lines which happened with me few weeks back from a customer in Russia.

    The condition in which he had received the set was that the box had scratches, both sides taped (set being Batman and Harley Quinn so its taped from both ends) and the customer wanted to sell it ahead to someone. So complain was the set wasn't MISB.

    So in the end, after photo sharing, lots of emailing, filing case with Paypal and Bricklink, I agreed to refund some shipping money to the customer.

    Point being, you been had @Si_Dorking, so try to get out of this at minimum damage to your rating, even if you have to refund some money as getting the set delivered back to you would only make things worse trust me. And sadly speaking, the Buyer is always right in online transaction.

  • Si_UKNZSi_UKNZ NZMember Posts: 4,179
    right now I couldnt care less about my amazon rating as I'll be removing my inventory based on what others have said.
  • OdinduskOdindusk Member Posts: 763
    This is a terrible reality for e-sellers everywhere. I'm sorry, mate.

  • Si_UKNZSi_UKNZ NZMember Posts: 4,179
    sorry, in a grump, need to sleep on it.
    thanks everyone for the support and info, I really appreciate it.
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    Your story is a good cautionary tale to all, thank you for sharing and I hope it gets resolved in your favor. I'll remember not to try Amazon when it comes time to re-sell, way too much risk for fraud and no advantage for the seller after 15% fees. More of a fair shake dealing through BL, with equal risk to both parties.
  • johnsbricksjohnsbricks Member Posts: 210
    @oldtodd - there would be a weight discrepancy if the fraudulent buyer exchanged the contents for [email protected]#% B*%$$# or removing parts/bags.

    @si_dorking - maybe it is worth asking the seller to return the set as packaged in its entirety including packaging materials, to weigh in with proof of postage and to send a copy of that proof of postage. A weight discrepancy i.e. several 100g lighter may be useful if arguing a case?
  • RedbullgivesuwindRedbullgivesuwind Brickset's Secret HeadquatersMember Posts: 1,767
    My advice is find him/her and then beat them with the box while screaming "do you think its damaged now?". Wont help but will make you feel better
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    @johnsbricks - all of that sounds nice, and if you were in a court of law, it would matter. Amazon doesn't care and won't listen to any of it. If the customer sends back a box of rocks with a tracking number, the seller will end up having to refund.

    Sucks, but that is how it is with Amazon.

    I've said it already, I'll say it again... Amazon is not the place for an amateur seller. Amazon views all sellers on its web site as businesses. Even if you just think you're selling a few items, you must act like a business, behave like a business, have return policies like a business, and eat a few transactions like a business.

    The reason so many small sellers get caught up is that there is an easy "sell your item" on every item page, and it takes but a few clicks to list it, so many small sellers never read all the fine print about what it really takes to do business on Amazon.

    @Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK - you might not care about your rating, and that is fine, but do consider that if you fall outside of Amazon's ODR (Order Defect Rate) limits, they can ban your account. Such an event is permanent, for the rest of your life, and they generally do not give second chances. You might not care now, but you might care 5 years from now.

    Just saying...
  • y2joshy2josh Member Posts: 2,002
    Personally, I don't see the advantage to selling on Amazon. From my own experiences shopping there, I feel like the seller on Amazon has reduced visibility versus eBay, has to pay higher fees and has no real kind of protection at all. I'm inclined to believe that Si's decision to pull his stock is the right choice to make here. Though, if someone's who has actually sold on Amazon can post their experience, I'd be interested in hearing it.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    @y2josh - the benefit to Amazon is a worldwide audience of hundreds of millions of customers. Amazon is by far the largest online marketplace, probably 2 or 3 times larger than eBay, but it is a very different place to do business on.

    The whole thing is geared towards professional sellers, from Featured Merchant status, to the FBA program, to the $40 a month fee, to SP vs. SI accounts (not even counting Platinum accounts), being large enough to have a company rep you can call (rather than generic seller support), and so on.

    Amazon expects you as a seller to take almost anything back for any reason or no reason, for at least 30 days. Baby items they want a 365 day return policy on. Amazon expects you to make the customer happy, even if you have to bend a bit to do it. This is fine for someone selling a hundred items a day, for someone selling maybe 100 items a year, it can be a rough place to do business.

    For most hobby sellers of Lego who are just funding their addiction, eBay and Bricklink are better places to sell, for the serious seller, Amazon can be a good place to do business, if you do enough to absorb the occasional loss, which you have to expect to take, you can make money there... but it is a business, has to be treated like one... or you run into headache after headache...
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,561
    @Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK Did you advertise it as "mint" or just "new"? I've received sets directly from Lego that were in mint condition and others which were not. The buyer may not be aware that sets directly from the manufacturer are not always mint and that's where it's important that the seller be careful in their language as well. Mind you, I'm not saying you intentionally or even unintentially misled the buyer but they may have had a impression of product quality that was not identical to what you sold based on either your description of the item or an assumption of "mint" condition.

    That said, this is why I avoid buying Lego off of Amazon. I have had 0% satisfaction with purchases of Lego from there, primarily due to the failure of sellers from the Lego community to understand or apply collectors' terms like "mint" or properly assess product, ie. box, condition. As I've found this problem to be almost absent in purchasing many other things off Amazon it appears to be more endemic of the Lego community than of Amazon itself. Thus, I agree completely with LegoFanTexas that hobby sellers of Lego are better using eBay and Bricklink.

    Again, not saying this was the case with Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK. Without more detail in regard to the sale listing and the mindset of the buyer it's hard to know why this sale went wrong.
  • OdinduskOdindusk Member Posts: 763
    Good summaries, LFT. Amazon offers an enormous marketplace for those that sell a heavy volume. The odds are simply in their favor that they will be fine and come out ahead in the long run, despite being virtually guaranteed to be screwed over here and there.

  • y2joshy2josh Member Posts: 2,002
    I suppose I was coming at this from a small part-time seller's perspective. I do enough business on eBay to be a "top-rated seller," but certainly not enough to offset more than a few losses like this... and even at that point that would push me way more towards "breaking even" than I'd care to be for the time invested. So in that regard, I suppose eBay is a much better fit for me, though I would hazard a guess, at least from the information provided, that the same would be true for Si.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    As I've found this problem to be almost absent in purchasing many other things off Amazon it appears to be more endemic of the Lego community than of Amazon itself
    Well to be fair, most items outside hobby/collectibles fall into the realm of no one caring much at all about the condition of the outer package, which is merely to be opened and discarded to get to the real purchase - what's on the inside. LEGO is not bought on Amazon (or anywhere) else as primarily a collectible, so MOST buyers of LEGO honestly don't care about the box condition, as they will be opening it and chucking it. Therefore, I don't think there is a problem endemic of the LEGO community, but rather one of wildly different buyer expectations that many sellers perhaps don't even consider - in their mind they are selling a toy to be played with, and as long as the outer box is sealed and in reasonable condition, they don't even consider it as an aspect of the selling process at all. they are selling the product inside, not a graded collectible.
  • OdinduskOdindusk Member Posts: 763
    ^

    All of that is very true.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    ^ which is why, as was discussed recently in another thread, if someone is buying LEGO online with the intent to receive a mint box, I believe the onus should be on the buyer to ask the appropriate questions or state their desires to the seller, rather than presuming or assuming that the seller is providing a mint box. And the term itself can vary quite widely in the interpretation. Again, I believe if you care about box condition as a buyer, the burden falls to you to state your intentions.

    Put another way - as a buyer, I assume the seller is selling a toy, not a collectible. If I buy a set listed as New or even New Mint, I expect the box to be sealed and not look like it was run over. I don't expect it to be free of minor to moderate shelf wear, scuff marks, etc, unless it is explicitly stated, or I inquire about it directly.
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,561
    Actually, package condition is VERY important to collectors of anything regardless of what is being collected. That's why abuse of terms like "mint" constitutes such a problem. This problem doesn't originate with Lego enthusiasts so much as it does with amateur sellers (and a handful of liars as well no doubt) on sites like eBay and Amazon who often use the term as a substitute for unopened.

    As I said, I haven't seen the widespread abuse of this term, at least not on Amazon, in any of the other kinds of items I have purchased there. These purchases would include books, replicas, action figures and video games. In each case, when the word "mint" was used it was done so to convey actual mint quality. In each case "mint" was used in regard to Lego it was merely a substitute for unopened and not beat to hell. Hence, from my experience at least, the problem appears endemic to the Lego community's penchant for abusing the term "mint".
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    Actually, package condition is VERY important to collectors of anything regardless of what is being collected.
    of course, but that's the point - You are purchasing an item as a collectible which is not generally being thought of by the majority of buyers and sellers as a collectible. This isn't a problem with comic books, trading cards, action figures, coins, etc, because the general assumption of everyone is that these items are being purchased as collectibles, and thus sellers describe and rate them as such. the assumption in regards to LEGO is that it is being purchased as a consumable product, in this case a toy, and that packaging is generally not important to most buyers. Amazon sellers don't generally rate the packaging conditions of video games, dolls, nerf guns either, because it isn't generally relevant to 95%+ of buyers. The same goes with LEGO.

    When I see "Mint in sealed box" on a LEGO set, I just assume that is a marketing term. Of course the LEGO is mint - it's still in the box, which may or may not be "mint" (whatever that means). I don't assume the box is mint, and if I want it to be, I ask.

    I don't think there is an endemic problem with the LEGO selling community, I think you have an specialized expectation of box quality, not expected or shared by the majority of LEGO buyers, and therefore when buying, you should be careful to convey your unique requests to the seller by way of a simple inquiry.
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,561
    Trading cards and coins, yes. Comic books and actions figures, hardly. The former are a staple of childrens' literature and the latter are a toy just like Lego. The reason they have value to collectors is when people don't read/play with them and keep them mint. This is especially true with action figures which is why some command incredible prices nowadays (just the other day I was looking at a mint $3 action figure from the 1980s selling for over $2000 while holding my old childhood one that even opened, played with and missing half of its accessories is still worth about $50). Like Lego, most people open and play with them and so the individuals who do not can command a very nice price for an unopened one and an even nicer price for one kept in mint condition.

    Actually, from personal experience I know some Amazon sellers (eBay as well) do rate the packaging condition of video games, action figures (let's face it, they're just boy dolls) and other toys. Granted most do not and it's irritating to have to wade through a sea of listings to find those that are genuine.

    The problem likely stems from eBay and Amazon as markets for amateurs collectors and dealers not to mention those ignorant of the most rudimentary aspects of collecting. I avoid purchasing off of eBay almost completely due to the sheer lack of honesty and accurate quality assessment found there though I do check the listings for the occassional good find (there are indeed some sellers who are collectors themselves or who are selling to collectors). Those sites and the lack of product listing quality control have really made it a challenge not just for Lego but for lots of things. Lego is one of the worst types of products I've found when it comes to this.

    You hear a lot of people in the Lego community specifically call themselves "collectors" when in fact they're just adults who want to play with the toys inside the box the same as any kid. Go through this forum and you'll find the term collector used a lot even though most do not in any way resemble the term collector as used with most other communities calling themselves such. While it's true that they are collectors as they do seek a collection, often times complete, the distinction in regard to quality assessment and the use of related terms does not meet the norms of many other communities of collectors. I think it's well summed up by the fact that in many circles, I would not be considered anything resembling a truly serious collector since I am unwilling to go to some of the extremes in price to attain individual items or complete collections. By contrast, some here likely consider me "elitist", "unique" (as just used above) or a variety of even less flattering terms in regard to my standards in collecting. Hence, it certainly would appear that the problems of quality assessment and really is endemic, though obviously not exclusive, to the Lego community.
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,561
    edited January 2012
    I think we may be, if we haven't already, gone too far off topic to the original discussion. If they agree, would a moderator be so kind as to split the thread? My apologies to Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK (that's a chore typing and I would just say SDSU but that's San Diego State University to my mind) for any derailment.
  • vwong19vwong19 San DiegoMember Posts: 1,174
    SDSU... was the package sent internationally? Does customs ever open Lego boxes for inspection and reseal them...? I would doubt it, but just wondering.

  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    Granted most do not and it's irritating to have to wade through a sea of listings to find those that are genuine.
    Well I would say that most do not, because most buyers simply don't care about such things. They want the product inside the packaging. And someone selling a video game on ebay isn't selling anything less "genuine" just because they don't rate/describe the case. the product is still geniune, they are selling the product. You just happen to want an additional feature that is ancillary to what is being sold.

    I certainly didn't use the term unique as a perjorative, just as an assessment of the fact that your standards are in the minority for those buying LEGO online (and many of these other products). I certainly think that you are entitled to expect your purchases to be delivered in whatever condition you are seeking, but I think it completely unrealistic, and probably even unreasonable for you to expect the masses of the LEGO buying and selling universe to adopt some strict and uniform code of package grading in the description of LEGO products (or video games, etc), when a large percentage of buyers simply don't care at all about these things - they are buying the product, not collecting. It is a far more attainable goal for you to simply change your expectations of the descriptions and inquire about specifics when you are considering a purchase.

    I also apologize for the derailment, and I think I've pretty much said all I have to say about this subject.
  • MinifigsMeMinifigsMe Member Posts: 2,844
    Sorry to hear this Si. I think taking a pic of one that you having, showing that the tape is standard would be a start. Because as much as they're trying to sound like they know what they want, they don't know lego well enough to know that's that standard. If they're worried about the tape, they might be looking for faults elsewhere (and exaggerating) to make sure they're listened to. I think pointing this out might get you somehwere towards sorting this out with your customer directly.
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