Explanation on the inventories of 1972 era Samsonite sets

LusiferSam

This is a post that has been several days in the making. It's a bit of an obscure topic, so hope you guys find it interesting. This is an extra long post, so I'm going to have to do it in three or four segments.  I've done a lot of proof reading, but there still maybe some typos, sorry about that.

I finally been able to crack the code on what has been a bit of a standing mystery for me, that is the inventories on the 1972 era Samsonite sets. The so-called Imagination Sets, 101, 102, 103, 104, and 105, along with Sears, JCPenney's and some promotional sets were made with a very different philosophy in mind then earlier sets. They were basically dumping grounds for Samsonite to clear out their inventory of Lego elements. I've long felt there was a pattern to these, but have been unable to figure it out. Until now.

For some background, Samsonite was putting very little effort into these sets. The licensing agreement with Lego was coming to an end and they were looking to liquidate their remaining inventory. Minimal effort was being put into these sets as is evidenced by their lackluster nature. A way to put further minimal effort into them would be to make them highly formulaic. It is this formula that I have been working on cracking.

A couple of years ago I bought a 103 set that was partially sealed. The box was open but there were four bags of basic bricks, two were sealed and two were open. There were also three other bags.  One was taped closed and the other two had the same type of tape stuck to the side, but were otherwise open.  The two sealed bags of basic bricks looked to have a very similar inventory of bricks and were very close to having the same inventory as the open bags. This got me thinking; what if they were identical? Or more importantly what if the bags had the exact same number of pieces in them?  

The bottom of the box for each of the Imagination Sets lists a rough inventory for each set. The inventories list the number of basic assorted bricks, base plates, roof pieces, windows and doors, wheels and their accessories, and gears. Looking at a couple of these sets there seem to be a bit of a pattern. At the time I couldn't make the numbers work as I had too little information to work with. With limited information I put these away and left the problem for another day.

I was recently spurred to revisit this issue by a recent eBay listing. There's a 101 set that had an open box but sealed bags, similar to my 103 sets. This eBay listing shows two bags of slope, window and door elements in bags that are taped closed rather than heat sealed. Interestingly this is the same type of tape that is on some of my open bags in the 103 set. This is a strong indicator that these bags and the tape is original. Using the sealed bags as a rough guide and looking at the basic inventories of all 5 Imagination Sets I was able to devise a workable system.

LusiferSam

The system I'm proposing as each set being made up of four types of bags. I call these bags A, B, C, and D. This is my own terminology and was not used by Samsonite to the best of my knowledge. But they are useful in showing how the sets were made and how they should be inventoried.

Bag A would have 124 basic bricks. 2x4s, 2x2s, 1x2s, and 1x8s  bricks in red, white, blue, and clear with white 2x8 plates. White is the most common color followed by red. A limited number of elements are in blue and clear is the least common only a couple of parts and that color. The number of bag A's in each set is the same as the number of base plates. 101 has two base plates and two A bags. Whereas 105 has six base plates and six A bags. Bag A likely has a large degree of variation due to Samsonite's low quality control and the fact that they were liquidating their remaining inventory.

Bag B are where the slope, window and door elements were packaged. It would have 14 2x4 and 2x2 single slopes, two 2x4 double slopes, one 2x2 double slope, two windows and one door. The eBay photos of the sealed 101 set show two bags with a mix of slopes, windows and doors tape closed. The slope bricks were all in red. While the windows and doors were all in white with no glass.

Bag C has the wheels, tires and some of the axle bricks. It would have 12 wheels and 12 tires in a mix of large and small sizes, six axle bricks and one white turntable. My 103 set has a bag that is taped closed of wheels, tires, axle bricks and two turntables. I don't believe this bag is original to the set. There are two turntables rather than the single and there are a lot more wheels than 103 should have. Even if you assume that somebody miscounted, it's a stretch to have somebody miscount every single piece by more than 50%. On the other hand these bags could have been made in single, double or even triple varieties. It is possible that a double was used rather than a single.

Bag D holds the gears and miscellaneous other parts. The bag has 10 Samsonite gears: four white, four yellow and two blue. There are two additional axle bricks and 13 basic bricks. These are white 2x4 plates and white 1x1 round bricks. This is the key to making this all work. Sets 103, 104 and 105 all have extra basic bricks that aren't factors of 124. The difference between the inventory number and the multiples of 124 are in factors of 13. The difference in the axle bricks follows a similar pattern. Once these are accounted for all of the numbers work. My 103 set as an open bag with tape on it that has ten gears, two axle bricks, ten 2x4 plates and four 1x1 round bricks. The fact that there are 14 basic bricks is either accounting error or somebody added a brick after the fact.

The only parts that don't fit into a bag in the system are the blue base plates. But as stated earlier the base plates always have the same number as the A bags. The numbers all work with this assumption the base plates appear to be loose and not in any type of bag. My 103 and the eBay 101 both have loose base plates as does a late Kraft promotional set.  Below is a table that summarizes each bag.

And a table that summarizes each of the Imagination Sets in terms of the bags.

LusiferSam

I've been successful in using the system on nearly all of the catalog and promotional sets of this era. The four Sears sets and the late Kraft promotional sets fit into the system. The Sears catalog and Kraft flyer have some descriptive guidelines to work with. JCPenney's catalog is much more vague. The I’ve made up the table of these to show that they work and that the piece counts is correct. I am assuming the 426 piece JCPenney's set and 426 Kraft set are the same as 102.  And that the 576 piece JCPenney's set and 917 piece Kraft set are the same as 103 and 105. The description of the Kraft 426 piece set says it includes gears, but 102 does not have gears. I found a solution that works adding gears, but needs six B bags. This is too many slopes, windows and doors in my opinion and the accompanying photo does not show any gears.  Below is a table that summarizes each of the Sears, JCPenney's and Kraft set in terms of the bags.

And a table that shows a rough inventory of each similar to that of the Imagination Sets.

The only sets I've not been able to truly work into the system are the 920 piece and 1252 piece motorized JCPenney sets. They are lacking enough information from me to confirm much about them. The addition of a power pack or bag E is needed for these sets. If I assume the power pack is the same in both sets, I found solutions that require the power pack to have either 3 or 14 pieces in order to meet the required piece count. 3 is a good answer but the motor needs special cam wheels in order to function, so this seems unlikely. 14 is a far more reasonable answer. However every time I count parts in this possible power pack I get an odd number, either 11 or 15. So either Samsonite is counting oddly, they have additional pieces I don't know about or I'm lacking other critical information about these sets. In any case this is a mystery for another time.

So there is a fairly important caveat here. This should not be taken as an absolute guide to an exact inventory for these sets the way that a modern set would be inventoried. What I've done here is explain the inventories of these sets at a high level. Samsonite's quality control was mediocre at best. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that there were counting errors in each of these bags, as well as substitutions. Bag A with the most parts is the most likely to have errors and substitutions. Remember Samsonite was liquidating the remaining inventory of product, not making a modern set with exacting details. Samsonite was known to have made substitutions or have different versions of the same set early in their history with Lego. The sealed bag A's that I have been able to do a visual inventory of show differences in key bricks. Such as different numbers of various blue bricks, different numbers of 2x8 white plates and different numbers of 1x8 bricks. I'm working with a small sample size, I own three sealed bags, someone had previously inventoried such a bag, and I have images of three others. The important thing is that bag A has 124 bricks, give or take a few (hopefully give rather than take).

I think bag A can have some general guidelines to its inventory. Such as there should be no black, yellow or gray bricks. Clear elements seem to be limited to only 1x2 bricks and the only plates seem to be white to be 2x8s. Blue bricks show up only as 1x2, 2x2 and 2x4 bricks.  I’ve made up some tables of the inventories of each of the bags.  There is a pieces count as well as a +/- variations that I’ve been able to document.  Absolutes are difficult to come by and may not exist for these sets.

madforLEGO

Thinking that @Istokg would also find this a bit interesting as well

Istokg

I have to review what @LusiferSam wrote when I have time.

But in the mean time... here is some additional information from an AFOL with a former Samsonite set model builder.  This is 4 years old, and explains why except for yellow Samsonite gears... the 1971-72 USA Samsonite LEGO was just 3 colors... red, white, and blue....

Istokg

The previous anecdotes from a former Samsonite LEGO set designer explains why these early 1970s LEGO sets were only 3 colors (red, white, blue), with some yellow gears (likely still in inventory).  The TLG folks were furious when they discovered this reduction to 3 LEGO colors, and 1973 was the year TLG took over USA LEGO sales, cancelling their license with Samsonite...

Sears...



J.C. Penney...

LusiferSam

@Istokg I thought I had given you a better scan of the '73 Sears catalog page.  One that was both readable and not watermarked.  Just let me know if you want a higher resolution one.

I think what I've described fits well with the costing angle.  It's very simple and easy to formulate a price point.  I thought about trying to work up a price formulation on these sets.  But I'm not sure the Kraft promo sets would work and I'm not sure on the source of prices on the Imagination Sets (they may be inaccurate).

My impression of the split between Samsonite and Lego was that it started before 1972.  These "cheap" sets for 1972 may have been the straw that broken the camel's back, but it wasn't the first break.  Samsonite's sales and market share were consisted to be lagging behind the European ones.  Lego also didn't like some of Samsonite's marketing tactics like large catalog sets.  I also thought it took a lawsuit to separate them. The two companies signed a 100 year agreement for Samsonite to manufacture, market and sell Lego bricks in North America.  There were also some odd lingering effects of the settlement that lasted into the 80s.

While I won't say the models are great, there are some really interesting ones from this era.  Forced to use a limited palette, there are some really creative models for the time.  Personally I really like the grandfather clock and have thought about building it.  Or my own version of it, I'd like it to have some depth rather than be flat.

Istokg

@LusiferSam thanks for the better image!

I agree that the timeline of that meeting with TLG and Samsonite employees was "after the fact" when it comes to TLG getting the LEGO license back from Samsonite.  Perhaps it was still in litigation when that meeting occurred, and the indignation of the TLG reps there didn't help the matter.

The litigation for getting the LEGO license back likely started in 1970... the last year of a regular LEGO catalog with LEGO model maker, train, and other sets common to both Samsonite and TLG.

I have never found a 1971 Samsonite LEGO catalog, showing the rainbow design found on 1971 101-105 large cube basic sets.

The 1972 Samsonite LEGO catalog however contains that rainbow of the 1971 sets on one side....



The other side shows the 101-105 sets in the 1972 box design... with Samsonite in larger letters than "LEGO", a serious faux pas.  Also, there were only 5 sets and 3 accessory packs in that 1972 catalog. 



The 110 (Vehicle Accessory Pack) and 111 (Building Accessory Pack) are unknown in any collection.  It appears that the Sears exclusive versions of these 2 packs (166 and 167) were put into general production, so the 1972 catalog and the actual accessory packs don't match up number wise.

Istokg

In the Brickset database 5 people "claim" to own the 110 Vehicle Accessory Pack and the 111 Building Accessory Pack.  I would wager they do not have them.  In 20 years of searching (since the Lugnet early days), I have never seen one of either set.  No box images or sales on Bricklink, Brickset, Peeron or Lugnet.

catwrangler

Istokg said:

In the Brickset database 5 people "claim" to own the 110 Vehicle Accessory Pack and the 111 Building Accessory Pack.  I would wager they do not have them.  In 20 years of searching (since the Lugnet early days), I have never seen one of either set.  No box images or sales on Bricklink, Brickset, Peeron or Lugnet.

I wonder if those are misfires where people meant to hit "want"...

Really enjoying all these scans, thanks for sharing them!

wjoeyjones

LusiferSam nice job, as a collector of Samsonite sets I appreciate the work you have done here.  You mentioned the tape on the bags, I remember that type of tape as a child.  Again thanks for your efforts.

LusiferSam

Thanks everyone for the positive feedback and the likes.  This has been a fun little mystery for me to unravel.

Istokg said:

The 110 (Vehicle Accessory Pack) and 111 (Building Accessory Pack) are unknown in any collection.  It appears that the Sears exclusive versions of these 2 packs (166 and 167) were put into general production, so the 1972 catalog and the actual accessory packs don't match up number wise.

In the Brickset database 5 people "claim" to own the 110 Vehicle Accessory Pack and the 111 Building Accessory Pack.  I would wager they do not have them.  In 20 years of searching (since the Lugnet early days), I have never seen one of either set.  No box images or sales on Bricklink, Brickset, Peeron or Lugnet.

I didn't address 110/166 or 111/167 because these are yet a different type of pack.  The parts count on 166 is odd.  The only I can get 61 pieces is if the axles on the 2x2 are separate pieces.  I'm not sure the trust the inventories for 167 on either Bricklink or Peeron.  It could be a high level of variation existed as these were part of the liquidation, but I don't know.  I would agree on the claims to ownership. 

Which catalog would these have come from?  They aren't in the 70, 71, 72 or 73 Sears catalog.  From what I can make out it doesn't appear to be in the 71 or 72 JCPenney's catalog.  I've not seen a 71 FAO Schwarz, but they're not in the 70 or 72 catalogs.  FAO Schwarz seems to me to be the most likely given that these are full color packaging rather than brown cardboard boxes.

catwrangler said:

I wonder if those are misfires where people meant to hit "want"...

I highly doubt it.  There are a number of very rare or obscure sets that have a high level of claimed ownership.  A lot of times people will assemble loose pieces and say they own the set.  Whether they do or not is a debate for a different thread.  Others will click own in order to boost their ranking. 

Istokg

Here's another USA Mail-Order series of sets from Alden's Mail-Order Catalog, once America's 4th largest mail-order catalog company... they went out of business in the mid 1980s.

This is a Christmas 1972 Alden's catalog image showing 3 LEGO sets... the square boxed Samsonite 101, 103 and 105 sets...

LusiferSam

What I find interesting about the Alden's catalog is the plastic tray in the back ground.  I would have assumed that these boxes would be the same square boxes as the other sets of this period.  The tray should be from the early flat, rectangular boxes.

I was also trying to figure out what was up with the wheels on the car.  They are white gears with large tires over them.  Not sure I would want to try that today, as it likely break the tires.

espear

I have a cardboard Samsonite set No 536 with its outer cardboard box and insert box tray.  I have found an inventory list for this set but not for the other set No 835.  Any info will help.  This is my first post.  Here are the boxes.

LusiferSam

I would take the Peeron inventory for #536 with a grain of salt.  It's based on an open set, which is massively problematic.  Think of it as a guide rather than the absolute truth.

In terms of #835, you're out of luck in term of an inventory.  835 is a much rarer set than 536.  A proper inventory is going to come from a sealed set.  Given that nobody has inventoried a sealed version of 536, it is less likely that a sealed version of 835 is going to be inventoried. 

espear

Thanks for the heads up.  I will start with 536 list to see what I have to match it and then do a count to the 835 total block count of 335.   There are a few "unique" blocks like the Towing Link and one railway window so cannot say a mix from other sets.   Every block I have look at says Pat Pend.  Should I expect "all" of them to say this? 

LusiferSam

In general the bricks are going to be Pat Pend.  It's possible some might be pre-Pat Pend, but there should be any obscured or void era bricks as those came much later.  You might have Samsonite logo, modern logo or mixed logo bricks.  While most will be ABS, there might be CA bricks.   The plates could be waffle bottom or circle bottom.  I also might have pearl plates.  Samsonite used a non-standard plastic mix on some of there plates.  The effect to give the pieces a pearl like sheen.

Istokg

There are 2 versions of the 536 Designer Set.  The earlier 1968 version has a small 1:87 car LEGO garage...



The later 1970 version of 536 has a different garage, and house model...

Astrobricks

And according to the BS database, there was also a #536-1 Duplo set from 1977. Unfortunately, the 1970 version isn’t in the database (and the 1968 version above ( #536-2 ) is listed as 1967).

LusiferSam

Astrobricks said:

And according to the BS database, there was also a #536-1 Duplo set from 1977. Unfortunately, the 1970 version isn’t in the database (and the 1968 version above ( #536-2 ) is listed as 1967).

There are basically the same set, nothing more than a variation.  If you want to create real chaos in any Lego database try to account for every variation of every set with a separate entry.  Sorting the 700 series alone would take a lifetime.

Astrobricks

LusiferSam said:

Astrobricks said:

And according to the BS database, there was also a #536-1 Duplo set from 1977. Unfortunately, the 1970 version isn’t in the database (and the 1968 version above ( #536-2 ) is listed as 1967).

There are basically the same set, nothing more than a variation.  If you want to create real chaos in any Lego database try to account for every variation of every set with a separate entry.  Sorting the 700 series alone would take a lifetime.

When did Lego stop doing variations on sets? After the Samsonite deal ended?

LusiferSam

Astrobricks said:

When did Lego stop doing variations on sets? After the Samsonite deal ended?

Depends on how you define what a variation is. There are variations in box art, regional differences, renamed sets, changes in building instruction, and changes in set inventories just to name the most obvious (to me at least).  There's a whole thread on more modern variations.

espear

I finished the count of the 2 sets.  My hope that matching the Peeron 536 set inventory I would be left with a reasonable example of 835 set.  That did not work out.  I am 105 bricks short of the 536 inventory.  Most in 2 type of bricks the White Brick 2x4 (47) and the red Slope Bricks (54). What was left was 430 Bricks.  So I now have 861 vintage LEGO bricks from the 1960's.
Here is a picture of the 430 remainder:
 

LusiferSam

espear said:

I finished the count of the 2 sets.  My hope that matching the Peeron 536 set inventory I would be left with a reasonable example of 835 set.  That did not work out.  I am 105 bricks short of the 536 inventory.  Most in 2 type of bricks the White Brick 2x4 (47) and the red Slope Bricks (54). What was left was 430 Bricks.  So I now have 861 vintage LEGO bricks from the 1960's.
Here is a picture of the 430 remainder:
 

The yellow plates with the holes and blue doors likely go #333.  There are still too many yellow elements left over, so #335 could also be a possibility.

Istokg

LusiferSam said:

Astrobricks said:

And according to the BS database, there was also a #536-1 Duplo set from 1977. Unfortunately, the 1970 version isn’t in the database (and the 1968 version above ( #536-2 ) is listed as 1967).

There are basically the same set, nothing more than a variation.  If you want to create real chaos in any Lego database try to account for every variation of every set with a separate entry.  Sorting the 700 series alone would take a lifetime.

@LusiferSam Amen... so far I have found 78 different variations on the 700/x sets of 1949-65...

When I bought a 536 Designer Set (in the colorful box) many years ago, it came with the later Minix car and 5 piece garage set (235), so it was a circa 1970 later version.  But what really floored me was that there were 3 trans-clear 2x10 bricks in the set.  At first I thought that someone added an extra 045 Samsonite Clear Bricks pack to the 536 set... but since there is only one 2x10 clear bricks in each packs (and one 2x8 brick), it didn't add up to 3 clear bricks parts packs being added.  So I think that there were "extra parts" added to some of the Samsonite sets at the factory.

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