Shopping at LEGO or Amazon?
Please use our links: LEGO.comAmazon
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.

Women of NASA - Can of Worms

1246710

Comments

  • RecceRecce Member Posts: 923
    Ghostbusters reboot all over again!

    The new Ghostbusters movie was specifically made to have all female ghostbusters just because the original, for whatever reason, had all male casts.

    So tit for tat, if there's a future Ghostbusters movie should they change back to all male since the last was all female? There will be no end to this. Just because something started out in same way (good or bad) that now we had to come out with a new one in a direct opposite extreme? How's that for progress to equality.

    Example, if there are 100 astronauts, 90 are male with 10 females, we complaint there are too much exposure given to the male astronauts which I believe is probably only a few selected males out of the 90, and now you want to highlight the 10 females, then what about the 80+ of the rest of the male astronauts? Shouldn't they be included as well? For every single male astronaut that is well known, I'm sure there are many other males (and maybe a few females) that are not mentioned. How are you going to be fair to ALL the astronauts, regardless of gender? It never ends well when we go to the extremes.

    The only reasonable action that TLG can take, as some had mentioned, is a "Heroes of NASA" whereby there'd be a mix of gender in minifigures. 

    Gender issue aside, I see no attraction to this model other than being a glorified minifigures pack with some minimal builds, much like a City Starter Pack.

    To those that complaint about this taking up the "spot" resulting in other models not getting through, you're wrong. TLG reviews the models individually so one model being approved will not cause another model to be rejected. They all get approved/rejected based on their own individual merits. For this around the other models are likely too big, too similar to currently available sets, or difficult to get license etc hence all got rejected.

    Though I really hope they can get the Voltron license in the coming months.
    SprinkleOtterPumpkin_3CK5Omastar
  • SumoLegoSumoLego Member Posts: 15,241
    Pitfall69 said:
    Lawyers make the world a better place? Shouldn't this post be in the "Ridiculous" thread ;) I am being funny...Hold the pitchfocks :)
    Yeah, it's insurance companies that make the world a better place.  Lawyers and Governments just suck the life out of society.

    Permit me to quote my wise father (an insurance adjuster) when I declared my intention to study the law:  "You know, doctors save people's lives."
    Pitfall69stluxcatwranglerSprinkleOtterOmastar
  • SumoLegoSumoLego Member Posts: 15,241
    Pitfall69 said:
    Hold the pitchfocks :)

    Pitfall69AllBrickTyresOFlahertypharmjodOmastar
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    Recce said:
    Ghostbusters reboot all over again!

    The new Ghostbusters movie was specifically made to have all female ghostbusters just because the original, for whatever reason, had all male casts.

    So tit for tat, if there's a future Ghostbusters movie should they change back to all male since the last was all female? There will be no end to this. Just because something started out in same way (good or bad) that now we had to come out with a new one in a direct opposite extreme? How's that for progress to equality.

    Example, if there are 100 astronauts, 90 are male with 10 females, we complaint there are too much exposure given to the male astronauts which I believe is probably only a few selected males out of the 90, and now you want to highlight the 10 females, then what about the 80+ of the rest of the male astronauts? Shouldn't they be included as well? For every single male astronaut that is well known, I'm sure there are many other males (and maybe a few females) that are not mentioned. How are you going to be fair to ALL the astronauts, regardless of gender? It never ends well when we go to the extremes.

    The only reasonable action that TLG can take, as some had mentioned, is a "Heroes of NASA" whereby there'd be a mix of gender in minifigures. 

    Gender issue aside, I see no attraction to this model other than being a glorified minifigures pack with some minimal builds, much like a City Starter Pack.

    To those that complaint about this taking up the "spot" resulting in other models not getting through, you're wrong. TLG reviews the models individually so one model being approved will not cause another model to be rejected. They all get approved/rejected based on their own individual merits. For this around the other models are likely too big, too similar to currently available sets, or difficult to get license etc hence all got rejected.

    Though I really hope they can get the Voltron license in the coming months.
    Except Ghostbusters was a movie that took four very funny men and was a movie about them. And so the Reboot was a movie about four very funny women? Oh my. The outrage! And again, it's easy to make up statistics like 90/100, is it true? Maybe. Is it not? Maybe.

    I think to say the 'only reasonable' thing to do is a bit extreme. Perhaps to you its the only reasonable thing, but certainly not everyone would agree.
    catwranglerAanchir
  • 77ncaachamps77ncaachamps Member Posts: 2,442
    I say, "Why not?"

    I may not buy one but it's better to offer something that brings positive attention to Lego and toys targeting young girls (other than Friends figures).

    Heck, Lego made sets I never liked like Angry Birds and...Gallidor.
    SumoLegotmgm528stluxAyliffecatwranglerOmastarvizzitor
  • SumoLegoSumoLego Member Posts: 15,241
    What's a Galidor?
  • Glacierfalls265Glacierfalls265 Member Posts: 273
    LEGO Ideas is a weird fish. On one hand it seems to be half a popularity contest with only a little thought given to creativity and more on which IP people choose (or how big their twitter following is). On the other hand it seems to be like a talent pool that LEGO can cherry pick the best techniques from to incorporate into their future sets. But having projects on the site right now I'm not one to judge.  But on the topic at hand, I'm not sure how I feel about this set. Is there a no comment option? ;) 
    catwrangler
  • KingAlanIKingAlanI Member Posts: 2,354
    I can sympathize with the politically correct motives, but it's also a good idea practically, especially with Hidden Figures buzz. A non-generic Research Institute is an intriguing concept. Tereshkova was first, but the Soviet space program with a few exceptions* has a name recognition problem that is recognized as a problem with other Ideas proposals. * Sputnik, Yuri Gargarin, Laika and the Luna probes were the only others I thought of off the top of my head, and that's probably more than most people.
    NASA might be the North American Space Agency
    NASA actually stands for National Aeronautics and Space Administration

    When I was a KFOL most of the LEGO I had was from the classic space theme. Every minifigure had the same yellow face, and the only way to tell the gender of a minifigure was to ask the kid playing with it. 

    SMC said:
    #6456

    (the fact we only know she is a women because she is going into outer space with lipstick on is another matter)



    Female minifigures have to be distinguished as such somehow - hairpieces (out of the question with headgear like space helmets), face markings or costumes (those being less likely with simpler Classic designs)

    -

    I didn't see this project, but I have voted for some I wouldn't personally buy, as I do see a market for it. like one time I signed a petition for a politician I wouldn't vote for because I thought he should still have ballot access.

    Maybe minidoll style would catch crap for stereotyping the subject matter, but maybe it would improve the subject matter of the girly-aesthetic sets. Olivia is the STEM girl of the Friends main five, see Creative Lab this year and Exploration Car last year. That's the current example.

    Shib said:
    The NBA sets featured exclusively male minifigs based on real people, same goes for the German football CMFs - you can argue that that's the result of the source material but the fact that we don't have (popular) mixed sporting leagues is still down to a casual level of sexism that most people don't realise they carry around with them.

    I don't particularly like that this Idea passed review but it's nothing to do with the politics, it's just the poor design. Had there been decent builds with it I'd have no problem with it - after all it highlights people who haven't had the level of recognition in the past that they deserved.
    The guy in #21101 Hayabusa and the Beatles figures in #21306 are the only other examples I can think of.

    Gendered sports leagues make sense for physical differences. (so mixed leagues make sense for pre-pubescent youth) Why the female version is less popular is the question. Maybe if the game depends on raw strength - males with such ability are rare enough.

    In general, I use 'sports' to refer only to physical competition. Co-ed is fine for non-physical competition like chess. Why are women less common in that? Maybe it's macho competitiveness for men mentally but not physically skilled. Explaining that raises a nature/nurture question, common with gender roles issues in general.

    stlux said:
    Too bad Grace Hopper only indirectly contributed to NASA's success and hence is not part of this set. I would kill for an official minifig of her in Rear Admiral uniform.
    Maybe it would fall under LEGO's prohibition on modern military stuff. I know of her as a pioneer in computing. I did know that she was a USN flag officer; navies were major early adopters of computers for gun targeting calculations (the range of sea battles plus the motion of the ocean).

    catwrangler
  • SeijiAmasawaSeijiAmasawa Member Posts: 266
    This was briefly mentioned on PBS Newshour last night. (US public television)
    Omastar
  • ecmo47ecmo47 Member Posts: 2,101
    My problem with this selection is that it does not showcase any skill and very little imagination of the submitter. It's just simply a current "hot button" theme. While I do have some issue with "Women of..." aspect of the model, the criticism would be far less if these were creative brick-built figurines likes many of Vitroelum's wonderful creations or Miro78's Princess Leia.   

    Addition point: I would think that such a selection would encourage behavior that Lego is trying to avoid - that of people submitting "ideas" that are simply not creative and hoping to strike it rich on current head-line theme.  Yes, I realize that an idea has to get 10K votes but I could submit a bunch of  idea's today that would get that garner the votes due to the polarization of today's (USA) society. Here's a start of that list:

    -Black lives matter activist
    -Pro-life activist
    -Women's rights activist
    - Illegal immigrants

    These submission would probably get tossed by Lego rules (which I haven't read) but the point is that they all have a built-in base that would rocket the submission is 10K in a heart-beat but do don't display any talent or creativity.

    To me, it's just plain lazy regardless of the subject matter.
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556

    SMC said:
    #6456

    (the fact we only know she is a women because she is going into outer space with lipstick on is another matter)



    Female minifigures have to be distinguished as such somehow - hairpieces (out of the question with headgear like space helmets), face markings or costumes (those being less likely with simpler Classic designs)

    Why do they have to be distinguished as female? If a woman is wearing a spacesuit and a helmet with visor, they look pretty much the same as a man wearing a spacesuit and a visor. Why should there be the need to put curves on a spacesuit torso to distinguish the minifigure as female? You wouldn't be able to tell the astronaut was female until she showed her face. The costume part need not have curves on to do this. The way curves are often put onto such torsos reflects an in built bias in the viewer / designer, in that the perception is that it must be a male if it is an astronaut unless shown otherwise.
    datsunrobbieOmastar
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
    edited March 2017
    SumoLego said:

    Minidolls, Friends, Disney Princess, Research Institute, SuperHero Girls, Women of NASA...

    Newsflash - the diversity of Lego sets makes the overall selection of products better.


    I think there is a difference here in that Minidolls, Friends, Disney Princess, SuperHero Girls are made to appeal to girls. Whereas Women of NASA is meant to appeal to girls to show they can be (NASA) scientists but also to boys to show that women can also be (NASA) scientists.  As I have said earlier, I think it fails in the second of these. If the set is not appealing to boys now, there is still a problem later. Obviously one lego set is not a major factor, but if the consistent message is that girls (and later women) can do everything without men, then it really doesn't help that much. The message is ignored. Far better to show a more gender balance workplace than a purely female one (or a purely male one).
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    CCC said:
    SumoLego said:

    Minidolls, Friends, Disney Princess, Research Institute, SuperHero Girls, Women of NASA...

    Newsflash - the diversity of Lego sets makes the overall selection of products better.


    I think there is a difference here in that Minidolls, Friends, Disney Princess, SuperHero Girls are made to appeal to girls. Whereas Women of NASA is meant to appeal to girls to show they can be (NASA) scientists but also to boys to show that women can also be (NASA) scientists.  As I have said earlier, I think it fails in the second of these. If the set is not appealing to boys now, there is still a problem later. Obviously one lego set is not a major factor, but if the consistent message is that girls (and later women) can do everything without men, then it really doesn't help that much. The message is ignored. Far better to show a more gender balance workplace than a purely female one (or a purely male one).
    What do you mean 'if the set is not appealing to boys now'? Where is this info coming from? 

    Again, it isn't like this is some new theme or will be an easy thing to pick up at Walmart. It's Ideas and specialized, it has a specific audience. Though I dare say a cool educational set after the popularity of Hidden Figures has limited boy and girl appeal.
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
    tmgm528 said:
    What do you mean 'if the set is not appealing to boys now'? Where is this info coming from? 

    If you remove all males from the history of NASA and celebrate only women's achievements, does it interest boys? And if not, how do boys get taught that NASA (or science more generally) is for both males and females. I'd say it loses more widespread appeal when you focus only on promoting one gender.

    tmgm528 said:
    It's Ideas and specialized, it has a specific audience.

    Sure, it may be inspirational to girls, but that is only part of the problem of getting more women into science. I agree it has a specific audience, people that are interested in women in NASA/science. It doesn't talk to people interested more generally in NASA/science.

  • SithLord196SithLord196 Member Posts: 1,161
    Would a "Men of NASA" submission have been approved?

    Should a "Men of NASA" submission be approved?

    Those are two questions that I keep pondering.

    My personal opinion is that it would not have been approved in an effort to avoid the fire and brimstone that would have rained down upon Lego for it (personally, because of this, I'm not even sure it would even pass the initial submission), but that if you're going to approve a "Women of NASA" submission then it is only fair and equal to approve a "Men of NASA" submission (should it reach the required 10k votes).

    In an effort to be open minded, I would like to hear other's answers to those two questions.
  • catwranglercatwrangler Member Posts: 1,895
    edited March 2017
    Should it be approved? On ideological grounds (or whether there should even be ideological grounds) we'll all have different thoughts, but to focus on things we can all agree on and which I assume are questions TLG would ask:

    - Would it be the direct equivalent of this submission in terms how fully explored (or not) the ideas are as vignettes? If so, that's not necessarily a strike against it: as people have pointed out, research institute previously consisted of a set of figures with individual vignettes - albeit more fully-realised. 

    - What context are we imagining? That it gets submitted in the future and would therefore potentially be chosen as a complementary set to Women of NASA, and exists in relation to it? And that it perhaps comes after another couple of large sets? (In this case, Women of NASA preceded by Fisherman's Hut and Apollo 11 Saturn V.) Because a set of this scale being approved seems to have a lot to do with what's come before most recently. 

    - A lot has been said about the media response and the extent to which Ideas functions as a PR engine for Lego beyond its usual consumer base. If it generated bad PR, would it meanwhile generate enough sales to make the PR something TLG could happily weather? 

    Personally I've got no animus against them releasing an equivalent collection of male figures; god knows, there's stories to tell, and I can believe that not every male astronaut, astrophysicist and engineer that's worked for NASA has been as widely highlighted as their contributions deserve. For white men, at least, it's not a systemic absence comparable to what women have experienced, but that doesn't mean I think they should be barred from the accolade of becoming Lego minifigs. I'd buy them. 

    But would I roll my eyes if a set was presented as "Men of NASA" rather than "Unsung NASA heroes", or the like? Sure. Because that framing would seem to be addressing a systemic cultural absence which isn't equivalent to that regarding women. 
  • tmgm528tmgm528 Member Posts: 457
    Would a "Men of NASA" submission have been approved?

    Should a "Men of NASA" submission be approved?

    Those are two questions that I keep pondering.

    My personal opinion is that it would not have been approved in an effort to avoid the fire and brimstone that would have rained down upon Lego for it (personally, because of this, I'm not even sure it would even pass the initial submission), but that if you're going to approve a "Women of NASA" submission then it is only fair and equal to approve a "Men of NASA" submission (should it reach the required 10k votes).

    In an effort to be open minded, I would like to hear other's answers to those two questions.
    Bear with me. The whole point is that all of human history has been a 'men of Nasa set' so to speak. In this case the most famous scientists/astronauts etc. are arguably men because for a very long time there simply wasn't the quantity/recognition of women in these fields. 

    Lego has kinda suffered with this problem for a long time (they're getting better) of arguably marketing and making a majority of their products for a male consumerbase. The perfect future is one in which representation in the workplace/world/toys/lego aisle is a 50/50 split of male and females within most anything. Should city/ninjago/nexo knights have a fair mix of both girls and boys? Totally! (Just throwing into the mix I think friends isn't the best way to go. These are the 'girl' lego is a negative to me).

    In the meantime though something like this is pretty perfect. Underappreciated scientists? Check. Educational Value? Check. A renewed interest in Nasa and Women/Minorities within that (Hidden Figures)? Check. 

    Is this as appealing to young boys as much as other stuff? Probably not. Is it trying to be? No. 

    More representation can only be a good thing. And hearing 'political correctness' thrown around like a weird insult, can only be a bad one. 

    My two cents.
    catwranglerLegogramtamamahmMattPetersensklambRogerKirkOmastarvizzitor
  • bandit778bandit778 Member Posts: 2,398
    Personally, it isn't the subject matter that has made me not like this proposed set.

    It's was sort of like the UCS label being put on Assault on Hoth, it (IMO) didn't fit with the sort of set that many have come to expect from the UCS label and that is essentially what I think of this.
    As an idea for a theme it's actually quite a good one and if it had been a series of CMF's covering a broader scope of personnel within the field, I would probably have brought a bunch like I do with all the others but as an Ideas set, I think it falls short, as the innovative builds or designs that have come to be expected from these sets just isn't there.
    oldtodd33mustang69Omastar
  • FauchFauch Member Posts: 2,711
    Would a "Men of NASA" submission have been approved?

    Should a "Men of NASA" submission be approved?

    Those are two questions that I keep pondering.
    now it makes me wonder, with all the bashing russia suffers from, and if it was a "heroes of the soviet space program" set?
    sklamb77ncaachamps
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
    ^^^^ if you read the statement by the designer, yes it IS meant to be marketed to boys. There are two main problems with women in science. (1) that girls don't get the encouragement to go into sciences or feel they can go into sciences and (2) that current scientists tend to employ people in their own image. If this doesn't appeal to boys now, it fails later on if science is still male dominated in a generations time.

    Whereas lego has a different motive to the designer. I don't think Lego cares about promoting women in STEM  (or other careers), men in STEM, or science in general. They care about selling a product. Jumping on a band wagon works. They will sell lots of this set. But will they actually change significantly, will they do 50:50 population in City sets, will they promote sciences more generally? I doubt it, not unless there is money in it for them. 
    goshe7
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO Member Posts: 10,836
    Oh boy, why is this even a thread when all it is going to do is get people called 'PC Police' or 'Misogynists'?
    MattPetersenKingAlanIOmastar
  • sklambsklamb Member Posts: 516

    I have to admit, why NASA women only? Right now, if there hadn't been an USSR space program, there would be no way to ferry astronauts to the ISS. If celebrating the USA's National Parks system appeals to an overly restrictive audience (although people from all over the world visit those parks, mind you) then why should Lego only celebrate the American space program--especially given that the Soviets had a female astronaut twenty years before NASA did? Fair's fair.

    Of course, there is one possible explanation for limiting the set to Americans--TLG presumably would have to negotiate a licencing agreement to include Soviet/Russian images/people, while they already have one with NASA. But that shouldn't be impossible to correct, surely.

    catwrangler
  • Legopassion8Legopassion8 Member Posts: 1,181
    Jeebus. I'm starting to think Lego chose this set to kick up a storm. Hate sells and people love complaining. I bet SDCC is a fun time to be around the Lego office. Watch. They'll pick Spider Gwen for the exclusive and giggle as people act silly over their toys. Meowth. That's right...
    MattPetersenmampepinOmastar
  • MrShinyAndNewMrShinyAndNew Member Posts: 285
    CCC said:
    ^^^^ if you read the statement by the designer, yes it IS meant to be marketed to boys. There are two main problems with women in science. ... (2) that current scientists tend to employ people in their own image. If this doesn't appeal to boys now, it fails later on if science is still male dominated in a generations time.
    I think it's fair to point out that your problem 2 is actually quite an understatement. Not only is hiring in science fields male-dominated, but many fields lately have been found to have fairly toxic levels of harassment at high levels. Top scientist men who are really awful to their female colleagues and students. There's a pervasive sexism problem that goes beyond hiring. To ignore the sexism in the scientific community and in society at large when considering the context of this Lego set misses the entire point. The designer of this set is surely aware of the history and the current reality, and I think Lego themselves are aware of it as well. 
    MattPetersenSumoLegotamamahmcatwranglertmgm528Omastarvizzitor
  • DrmnezDrmnez Member Posts: 855
    madforLEGO said:
    Oh boy, why is this even a thread when all it is going to do is get people called 'PC Police' or 'Misogynists'?
    im gonna go ahead and call out misandry, too. Usually to combat one, ppl tend to go the opposite direction and lead to the other ;)
  • SithLord196SithLord196 Member Posts: 1,161
    My question was referring to an entry about the lesser known men of NASA, as I'm sure most of the population are aware of the astronauts and their names. For the record, I actually have no idea whom any of the male supporting cast are outside of the astronauts. 

    They deserve recognition as well, but it feels like they shouldn't receive any in order to right the wrongs of the past. I don't really see how positive/reverse/whatever you want to call it segragation/discrimination/-ism really helps make society better as a whole (or rights the wrongs of the past), but from my point of view that seems to be the preferred methodology to use nowadays.

    As the last few people have pointed out though, I'm not sure there's much more reason to continue debating this. We all clearly have strong opinions on this submission, and Internet arguments rarely succeed in changing anyone's mind. My one hope is that should an "Unsung Men of NASA" set come along and reach 10,000 votes that it would also get approved, as things should be equal and fair. 
  • mustang69mustang69 Member Posts: 544
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
  • TikiLukiTikiLuki Member Posts: 64
    edited March 2017
    CCC said:
    ^^^^ if you read the statement by the designer, yes it IS meant to be marketed to boys. There are two main problems with women in science. (1) that girls don't get the encouragement to go into sciences or feel they can go into sciences and (2) that current scientists tend to employ people in their own image. If this doesn't appeal to boys now, it fails later on if science is still male dominated in a generations time.

    You're missing a biggie here IMO, which is that our society in general does not foster an attitude that science is important among any demographic.

    Most women I know (who are typically between 30 - 75 years old) couldn't give a rat's ass about science on just about any level.

    There are of course exceptions...my step mother in law and a few friends...that's out of hundreds of women.

    Conversely, I'd say somewhere between 30% - 60% of the men I know have at least enough of an interest in science to read about it, talk about it with some level of interest.

    Keep in mind that "science" covers a pretty broad spectrum here, not just rocket science, but chemistry, energy-related sciences, building-related sciences, automotive, computer / video game tech, etc.

    But there definitely seems to be a gender-based pre-disposition for a "general interest in science" and I think it's a big negative mark on U.S. culture that there isn't really that same focus on the importance and wonders of science that we saw in the '50s and '60s in particular.

    Part of the issue - I think - is that we've become a much more negative, cynical and borderline nihilistic society. Science as an important factor of every day life seems to fare much better when society is optimistic and forward-thinking (i.e. post-war optimism and the space race). 

    Such things are often derided these days and looked down upon because our culture of Political Correctness almost demands that topics such as space travel be looked at as folly: "Why would we waste money on space travel when there are so many people without food and access to healthcare?"

    So many people have an "all or nothing" attitude. We can improve life for more people and still work on space travel and exploration, but we have become a society that caters to the lowest common denominator first and foremost, and the LCD crowd typically thinks in overly simplistic, sort of 3rd grade terms. "Oh, you want to do X? Then you must hate Y and want those people to suffer!" It's nonsense.

    And none of it encourages an interest in the sciences because, again, "research" (with the exception of medical research, which has its own stigmas and real-world issues) is often thought of as an expendable effort.
    SumoLegoBillyBricks84Omastar
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie Member Posts: 1,831
    I've only checked a couple of the prior ideas winners, and they took several months to reach 10,000 votes. The NASA set did it in two weeks, indicating a great marketing campaign, but it also makes me suspect that a large percentage of those votes were cast more to support the creator than the creation. It will be interesting to see what happens when those 10,000 voters are asked "Would you pay $30/$40/$50 for this set?".

    I'd love to see LEGO issue a coupon for each vote cast that could later be used to get a discount when purchasing an approved set, just to try to get an idea about how many ideas sets get sold to people who vote for them. Maybe LEGO could email a receipt with a confirmation number for each vote, and have a numbered brick in the set. Send in the code number from the brick with your voting receipt and receive an exclusive bonus figure as a thank you for participating in the Ideas program.
    ricecake
  • SumoLegoSumoLego Member Posts: 15,241
    TikiLuki said:
    "Why would we waste money on space travel when there are so many people without food and access to healthcare?"
    To quote Sam Kinison - space travel can help me 'move to where the foooood is!'.  

    Or moreso, get me off this planet so humanity can start frigging up other planets.  As I said before, sign me up for the Axiom.
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,987
    mustang69 said:
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
     While I agree with being disappointed that the other sets are being made, I think we also need to be careful not to connect Women of NASA being chosen as the reason that the other sets are not being made. (Not saying that you have said that, but there is some implication. Of that throughout this thread) 

    The two items are simply not connected. 
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,987
    You're missing a biggie here IMO, which is that our society in general does not foster an attitude that science is important among any demographic.

    Most women I know (who are typically between 30 - 75 years old) couldn't give a rat's ass about science on just about any level.

    There are of course exceptions...my step mother in law and a few friends...that's out of hundreds of women.

    Conversely, I'd say somewhere between 30% - 60% of the men I know have at least enough of an interest in science to read about it, talk about it with some level of interest.

    Keep in mind that "science" covers a pretty broad spectrum here, not just rocket science, but chemistry, energy-related sciences, building-related sciences, automotive, computer / video game tech, etc.

    But there definitely seems to be a gender-based pre-disposition for

    Maybe hang out around other women??

     I do not find this true in my day to day conversations with women.

    Climate change, environmental sciences, behavioral science, medical science and advances... these are just a few of the science area that are often discussed in conversations I have with other women.

    It is true, I do not generally find many women talking about the latest scientific break through in  car engines, but I have had plenty of conversations on the latest medical advances or theories in regards to ASD or sensory, current science news or policy changes related to environmental science, etc.

    The ideas that women can't give a rat's ass about science or that there is a gender-based pre-disposition related to sciences are  sweeping generalizations.

    I do strongly agree, though, that society as a whole fails to foster science. Just watching tv shows and movies... how many times is the scientist a 'nerd'.... How many plots are based around the general concept of an evil scientist or the scientist has let science get out of control and now something is in danger.... If not that extreme, then we see the other end where the scientist is the savior that magically touches a keyboard or runs a test  and solves everything. The overall concept of someone in the sciences or tech is often portrayed very inaccurately from reality. (Not always and not all sciences, but I do think it creates a general false perception out there on science)
    catwranglerstluxTikiLukiCathyVTOmastar
  • AanchirAanchir Member Posts: 3,044
    I've only checked a couple of the prior ideas winners, and they took several months to reach 10,000 votes. The NASA set did it in two weeks, indicating a great marketing campaign, but it also makes me suspect that a large percentage of those votes were cast more to support the creator than the creation. It will be interesting to see what happens when those 10,000 voters are asked "Would you pay $30/$40/$50 for this set?".

    I'd love to see LEGO issue a coupon for each vote cast that could later be used to get a discount when purchasing an approved set, just to try to get an idea about how many ideas sets get sold to people who vote for them. Maybe LEGO could email a receipt with a confirmation number for each vote, and have a numbered brick in the set. Send in the code number from the brick with your voting receipt and receive an exclusive bonus figure as a thank you for participating in the Ideas program.
    I'm not convinced the skepticism here is warranted. I remember a lot of people raised a similar concern about the Minecraft project… that its support was not accurate/representative since it came from outside the organized LEGO community, that the people supporting it were just showing their support for Mojang/Minecraft than any actual intention of buying the set, that there needed to be some sort of system to make sure people couldn't vote who wouldn't buy, etc. People insisted nobody would buy it, that LEGO would lose money, that it was effortless garbage that anybody could build themselves, that it getting fully supported in 48 hours exposed a fundamental flaw in LEGO Cuusoo, even that it'd be the doom of the platform. And that was just when it hit 10,000 supporters, not even when it passed review. When it was actually released, it turned out to be a huge success, to the extent that it was "sold out" from the US LEGO Shop website in less than a week from release. Demand for it during the holiday season was substantial, it got several more production runs as well as a few follow-up sets and eventually a full theme.

    The Research Institute (based on the "Female Minifigures Set" project) also reached its 10,000 supporters VERY rapidly, especially compared to the AFOL-beloved Exo-Suit. They were eventually released pretty much simultaneously, and the Exo-Suit got a lot more fanfare, with many Bricksetters staying up late to buy it as soon as it came out. But in the long run, the Research Institute generated much more reliable demand, selling out rapidly each time a new production run became available, whereas I believe the Exo-Suit only sold out for good after being substantially discounted.

    We as a community don't seem to be all that prescient when it comes to which Ideas sets are going to have the most robust demand. But the rate at which a project gains support does seem to be a pretty reliable indicator of a set that will sell like hotcakes. Since this set is in very much the same spirit as the Research Institute, I see no reason to doubt that it will be quite popular.
    Lyichircatwranglerstluxtmgm528SumoLegoOmastar
  • BillyBricks84BillyBricks84 Member Posts: 355
    TikiLuki said:

    And none of it encourages an interest in the sciences because, again, "research" (with the exception of medical research, which has its own stigmas and real-world issues) is often thought of as an expendable effort.
    And research tends to be seen as something of which other people are in charge. Think about how many people get drawn in by "news" stories that are false but don't look into something beyond the text on that page, let alone sometimes just the title. 
    TikiLuki
  • MattPetersenMattPetersen Member Posts: 282
    TikiLuki said:
    CCC said:
    ^^^^ if you read the statement by the designer, yes it IS meant to be marketed to boys. There are two main problems with women in science. (1) that girls don't get the encouragement to go into sciences or feel they can go into sciences and (2) that current scientists tend to employ people in their own image. If this doesn't appeal to boys now, it fails later on if science is still male dominated in a generations time.

    You're missing a biggie here IMO, which is that our society in general does not foster an attitude that science is important among any demographic.

    Most women I know (who are typically between 30 - 75 years old) couldn't give a rat's ass about science on just about any level.

    There are of course exceptions...my step mother in law and a few friends...that's out of hundreds of women.

    Conversely, I'd say somewhere between 30% - 60% of the men I know have at least enough of an interest in science to read about it, talk about it with some level of interest.


    This is a byproduct of another era.
    Many, many women were never encouraged to go into any job or even degree involving science because for the longest time (and even persists today in some form) science was a man's job as werecmany other jobs. 
    Women couldn't and shouldn't be scientists because they should be the home maker. 
    So it's not surprising to see that age bracket (35+) having zero interest for the most part.

    That's part of the reason why SECME, STEM Club, and other organizations have appeared in schools and colleges in recent years. 
  • catwranglercatwrangler Member Posts: 1,895
    I'd like to see some actual evidence (scientific, non-anecdotal evidence) that 35+ women like myself have "zero interest for the most part"...
    SumoLegoCathyVTOmastar
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Member Posts: 2,728
    tamamahm said:
    mustang69 said:
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
     While I agree with being disappointed that the other sets are being made, I think we also need to be careful not to connect Women of NASA being chosen as the reason that the other sets are not being made. (Not saying that you have said that, but there is some implication. Of that throughout this thread) 

    The two items are simply not connected. 

       So you're saying that if the Women of NASA set wasn't in the Ideas line-up that none of the other sets would be made either? Of course they would have chosen one of the other sets. The two are completely connected.
  • devilheaddevilhead Member Posts: 286
    oldtodd33 said:
    tamamahm said:
    mustang69 said:
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
     While I agree with being disappointed that the other sets are being made, I think we also need to be careful not to connect Women of NASA being chosen as the reason that the other sets are not being made. (Not saying that you have said that, but there is some implication. Of that throughout this thread) 

    The two items are simply not connected. 

       So you're saying that if the Women of NASA set wasn't in the Ideas line-up that none of the other sets would be made either? Of course they would have chosen one of the other sets. The two are completely connected.


    If I remember correctly, there has been at least one review period that did not have any submissions selected to be put into production as a set.

    stluxShib
  • TyresOFlahertyTyresOFlaherty Member Posts: 345
    edited March 2017

  • mustang69mustang69 Member Posts: 544
    I don't think they necessarily picked Women of NASA over any of the other projects but I do think they selected it because none of the other ones, in their opinion, were feasible (still hoping voltron makes it).
    tamamahm
  • LyichirLyichir Member Posts: 1,026
    oldtodd33 said:
    tamamahm said:
    mustang69 said:
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
     While I agree with being disappointed that the other sets are being made, I think we also need to be careful not to connect Women of NASA being chosen as the reason that the other sets are not being made. (Not saying that you have said that, but there is some implication. Of that throughout this thread) 

    The two items are simply not connected. 

       So you're saying that if the Women of NASA set wasn't in the Ideas line-up that none of the other sets would be made either? Of course they would have chosen one of the other sets. The two are completely connected.
    Not really. There's no requirement that they must choose one project in each review period. As stated in the guidelines for Lego Ideas:

    "We evaluate all projects that qualify for one of the three annual LEGO Reviews in a batch. Each project is evaluated on its own merits independently of other projects in the same review period."

    They can easily choose more than one, or conversely, go without choosing any.

    datsunrobbiestluxtmgm528Aanchirbandit778Omastar
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,987
    oldtodd33 said:
    tamamahm said:
    mustang69 said:
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
     While I agree with being disappointed that the other sets are being made, I think we also need to be careful not to connect Women of NASA being chosen as the reason that the other sets are not being made. (Not saying that you have said that, but there is some implication. Of that throughout this thread) 

    The two items are simply not connected. 

       So you're saying that if the Women of NASA set wasn't in the Ideas line-up that none of the other sets would be made either? Of course they would have chosen one of the other sets. The two are completely connected.

    oldtodd33 said:
    tamamahm said:
    mustang69 said:
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
     While I agree with being disappointed that the other sets are being made, I think we also need to be careful not to connect Women of NASA being chosen as the reason that the other sets are not being made. (Not saying that you have said that, but there is some implication. Of that throughout this thread) 

    The two items are simply not connected. 

       So you're saying that if the Women of NASA set wasn't in the Ideas line-up that none of the other sets would be made either? Of course they would have chosen one of the other sets. The two are completely connected.


    Uh, no. They are not completely connected. I am saying it is erroneous to conflate the two. This is not a matter that because Lego picked one, they did not pick the other awesome sets.

    You do recall, that Lego has already had a period where they decided NOT to chose any, so yes, it is erroneous to state that of course they would have chosen another.

    http://brickset.com/article/17406/lego-ideas-no-sets-selected-in-most-recent-review


    As someone else already has said, Lego looks at sets based on their own merit. This is why Voltron is still in the running. Lego could have just as easily not picked Woman of NASA.and had Voltron still in the running. They could have also as easily put another set in the running..l mountain observatory? Little House? 


    There are many reasons listed in this thread as to why the other sets may have not been chosen. As has already been stated by myself and others, the large sets were simply not going to be picked. They just picked a large set for the first time ever, they are not going to follow up with another large set.
    The Ideas team only is going to have so much manufacturing bandwidth and funding. I believe they have strongly alluded to that in the past especially when they first mentioned size limitations. What comes before and after a set may impact a current set.  At least 1/2 the entries were large scale models, that simply were not going to be chosen. 
    There are license limitations. (space balls?)
    There are going to be marketing and sales. (Hadron collider? Seriously, as much as particle physics interests me (not joking), I would not have bought this set, because it simply is not a solid display model, nor does it have playability for a kid)

    It becomes very easy to blame this set as the reason for the other sets not being chosen, but that is far too simplistic of a model for how they evaluate and analyze which set to pick, and misses some of the actual flaws with the other sets.

    stluxAanchir
  • catwranglercatwrangler Member Posts: 1,895
    That also suggests that they feel this set will sell - it's not as if the rules bind them to choosing something, anything, every round...
    tmgm528
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,987
    mustang69 said:
    I don't think they necessarily picked Women of NASA over any of the other projects but I do think they selected it because none of the other ones, in their opinion, were feasible (still hoping voltron makes it).
    Exactly. 
    I would have seriously loved the Little House/Banks of Plum Creek model. 

    First, there is licensing. 
    Second Lego just experienced how well a western theme sold. This set would have been a marketing/sales mess. 
    Third, it was a large set.

    This set was simply not going to happen, and it has nothing to do with what set was chosen.
    mustang69
  • TyresOFlahertyTyresOFlaherty Member Posts: 345
    I find it harder and harder to vote for sets on Lego Ideas with the track record of sets that get chosen. Not that I necessarily blame TLG or anything (with licensing issues, history, etc) it's just that with each wave, it's getting easier and easier to see which sets are going to make it through the gauntlet.
  • SithLord196SithLord196 Member Posts: 1,161
    I highly doubt this took the place of one of the other submissions.

    Nor do I think that the fishing store being released had anything to do with the other larger scale submissions being denied. I would consider Voltron a large scale model, and they are still reviewing (or perhaps negotiating license terms) for that one.
  • CCCCCC Member Posts: 20,556
     
    CCC said:
    ^^^^ if you read the statement by the designer, yes it IS meant to be marketed to boys. There are two main problems with women in science. ... (2) that current scientists tend to employ people in their own image. If this doesn't appeal to boys now, it fails later on if science is still male dominated in a generations time.
    I think it's fair to point out that your problem 2 is actually quite an understatement. Not only is hiring in science fields male-dominated, but many fields lately have been found to have fairly toxic levels of harassment at high levels. Top scientist men who are really awful to their female colleagues and students. There's a pervasive sexism problem that goes beyond hiring. To ignore the sexism in the scientific community and in society at large when considering the context of this Lego set misses the entire point.
    In reality, there is also quite a bit of hostility and harassment (but not necessarily sexual) towards men too, if they are the "wrong" men. Be that based on anything from sexuality, through to more mundane things such as just the "wrong" college / university background. 
    MattPetersen
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie Member Posts: 1,831
    Lyichir said:
    oldtodd33 said:
    tamamahm said:
    mustang69 said:
    My disappointment doesnt lie in the fact that Women of NASA is going to be a set but rather that so many other great ideas are not going to be made into sets. For those that are looking forward to getting Women of NASA, I'm happy for you.
     While I agree with being disappointed that the other sets are being made, I think we also need to be careful not to connect Women of NASA being chosen as the reason that the other sets are not being made. (Not saying that you have said that, but there is some implication. Of that throughout this thread) 

    The two items are simply not connected. 

       So you're saying that if the Women of NASA set wasn't in the Ideas line-up that none of the other sets would be made either? Of course they would have chosen one of the other sets. The two are completely connected.
    Not really. There's no requirement that they must choose one project in each review period. As stated in the guidelines for Lego Ideas:

    "We evaluate all projects that qualify for one of the three annual LEGO Reviews in a batch. Each project is evaluated on its own merits independently of other projects in the same review period."

    They can easily choose more than one, or conversely, go without choosing any.

    Exactly! LEGO ideas is not like US presidential elections, where a candidate has to be selected even when they all are bad choices.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Shopping at LEGO.com or Amazon?

Please use our links: LEGO.com Amazon

Recent discussions Categories Privacy Policy Brickset.com

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Brickset.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, the Amazon.com.ca, Inc. Associates Program and the Amazon EU Associates Programme, which are affiliate advertising programs designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.

As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.