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Is this baseplate damaged? And what the rapture??

135

Comments

  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    Pitfall69 said:
    It is the job of a Christian to spread the word of God; they aren't maliciously trying to piss people off.
    Does it matter if they do it maliciously? Their relationship formed with the customer is as a seller, not as a missionary. Their job is to provide what the customer bought. If they want to provide extra services that might not be welcome, then they risk their future business. If their religion is more important to them than their business, it is fine to do it but they cannot complain if people stop using them because of what they are doing. Maybe they should state upfront that they are a Christian business and will provide religious literature to a buyer before they buy. That might make them more popular, that might make them less popular. But at least it is being upfront about what they will provide.


    PaperballparkPeteMkiki180703RirinetteTheBigLegoskijadeireneSumoLego
  • MrShinyAndNewMrShinyAndNew Member Posts: 240
    TigerMoth said:
    The thing is that, for people who really don't believe in some sort of supreme being, it is just a piece of card with no meaning;
    The problem with your argument is that words have a meaning even if they're wrong. Words can have consequences even if they're wrong. Religion has been responsible for many offensive things in the world, so some people take offense when religion intrudes into their secular activities.
    TheBigLegoskiBOBJACK_JACKBOB
  • pharmjodpharmjod 1,170 miles to Wall Drug, USAMember Posts: 2,871
    I've always thought atheism amusing. I get agnostics as they admit they don't know with perhaps a leaning towards doubt. "Hard core atheist" practice their own form of religion. Just as other faiths can't physically prove the existence of God, atheists can only "believe" there is no god. You assume eternal damnation (or salvation) isn't real, but it is un provable as well. Saying you know it is as arrogant and naive as you assume Christians or other faiths to be. 
    SprinkleOtter
  • FauchFauch FranceMember Posts: 2,255
    well, you prove that something exists, not that it doesn't exist.
    PaperballparkMrShinyAndNewmonkeyhangerPeteMTheBigLegoskiBOBJACK_JACKBOB
  • MattsWhatMattsWhat Studley, UKMember Posts: 1,643
    CCC said:
    MattsWhat said:
    As a life long and fairly hard core atheist
    How can believe in something less than someone that doesn't believe in it?
    Quite easily. Compare a hard core atheist with a wishy-washy atheist. Just like comparing a Christian that is devout with one that attends church at Christmas only.

    A wishy-washy atheist is an agnostic. An atheist doesn't believe and that is absolute. Attending church more often makes you a hard core Christian but atheists don't have anywhere to attend. Or attend more. Everything about being an atheist (at all) is absolute except for going out and trying to convince people you are right. Which I don't think is very friendly given lots of people enjoy being religious. (it would be like someone trying to convince you to give up collecting lego). 
    SprinkleOtter
  • monkeyhangermonkeyhanger Member Posts: 2,782
    I'm an Atheist but still enjoy Christmas presents, especially if they have that characteristic plastic piece rattle when shaken.

    I have an uncle who is a Vicar and he is wholly sneaky and untrustworthy - a man of the cloth who tried to do up my Grandad's house to sell on the assumption he only had a week to live while he was moved to a Hospice with Pancreatic cancer, but came out and lasted another 18 months with a late flourish only to find his house in a state of remodeling when he did.
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie West Haven , CTMember Posts: 1,437
    Fauch said:
    well, you prove that something exists, not that it doesn't exist.

    The Final Proof of the non-Existence of God was proved by a Babel Fish.

    Now, it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some have chosen to see it as the final proof of the NON-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

    "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

    "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED"

    "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

    "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

    PeteMAanchirTheOriginalSimonBLyichirBOBJACK_JACKBOBgmonkey76
  • PeteMPeteM Gallifrey (near Bristol)Member Posts: 397
    edited June 2016
    MattsWhat said:

    Everything about being an atheist (at all) is absolute except for going out and trying to convince people you are right. Which I don't think is very friendly given lots of people enjoy being religious. (it would be like someone trying to convince you to give up collecting lego). 
    Trying to convince people you're right by, I don't know, sending them a random flyer telling them as much as part of an unrelated business transaction? That would be annoying... ;)

    Atheism is a lack of faith rather than a hard belief - show me that heaven exists and I'll believe it. I don't believe there is enough proof for me to accept the premise at the moment and I'm not going to waste any effort or others time trying to actually prove a negative to those that do believe....
    catwranglerLusiferSamTheBigLegoskiBOBJACK_JACKBOB
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    MattsWhat said:
    CCC said:
    MattsWhat said:
    As a life long and fairly hard core atheist
    How can believe in something less than someone that doesn't believe in it?
    Quite easily. Compare a hard core atheist with a wishy-washy atheist. Just like comparing a Christian that is devout with one that attends church at Christmas only.

    A wishy-washy atheist is an agnostic. An atheist doesn't believe and that is absolute. Attending church more often makes you a hard core Christian but atheists don't have anywhere to attend. Or attend more. Everything about being an atheist (at all) is absolute except for going out and trying to convince people you are right. Which I don't think is very friendly given lots of people enjoy being religious. (it would be like someone trying to convince you to give up collecting lego). 
    Wishy-washy atheists are not agnostic. They are atheists. Some atheists attend Sunday Assemblies, and similar events. But even if they don't have anywhere to attend or feel the need to attend such a service, they can still be hard core (writing books etc) or wishy-washy (such as believing there is no God, but never discussing it or occasionally attending religious services). Why would it be not very friendly to try to convince people that there is no God, if it is acceptable for religious people to convince others that there is?
    cheshirecatTheBigLegoski
  • SprinkleOtterSprinkleOtter Member Posts: 2,731
    Wishy-washy atheists are not agnostic. They are atheists. Some atheists attend Sunday Assemblies, and similar events. But even if they don't have anywhere to attend or feel the need to attend such a service, they can still be hard core (writing books etc) or wishy-washy (such as believing there is no God, but never discussing it or occasionally attending religious services). Why would it be not very friendly to try to convince people that there is no God, if it is acceptable for religious people to convince others that there is?
    In response to your last point- would it not be nice to tell a child that there is a Santa Clause, and not nice to tell a child that believes in Santa Clause that there is no Santa?

    Not a perfect analogy, but still.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    edited June 2016
    ^ Would it be nice to tell that child that Easter is nothing about bunnies and chocolate eggs but about the killing and later coming back to life of someone a couple of thousand years ago?

    Or that the tooth fairy is their mum or dad?

    Or that Tinky-Winky, Dipsy, Laa Laa and Po are people dressed up in costumes?

    It depends on age. Part of the backlash against religion in the UK (probably elsewhere too) is the way we are force fed it through school and often through other organisations (Scouts, etc). Then when kids are old enough to make up their own minds, they remember the continual brain washing at school.
  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie West Haven , CTMember Posts: 1,437
    ^Santa checks his list to see who is naughty vs who is nice and delivers presents accordingly. If someone is not visited, it either means Santa does not exist OR it means they were on the naughty list.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    I quite like the analogy of equating santa with God. Interestingly my ten year old realised for himself God didn't exist, jesus is made up and the Bible is a story book before he realised santa wasn't real. Go figure.
    BOBJACK_JACKBOB
  • bandit778bandit778 Docking Bay 94. Member Posts: 1,904
    Still going on i see, now I know why certain places it is common practice to ban discussions on politics and religion. 
    I say each to their own and all that. 
    But I think I will take the Sir Terry Pratchett approach that it doesn't hurt to believe in all gods, you know, just incase, because even though they may not exist, somebody may have forgotten to tell them that.
    catwrangler
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    Sigh! I thought we'd have moved on by now to bashing those religious groups who come and knock on your door on your day off, and when you think you're entitled to a lie-in, and then insist on trying to convert you.
  • MattsWhatMattsWhat Studley, UKMember Posts: 1,643
    In my head it works like this:
    Religious people have a belief, a hobby as it were,  and a group of friends who they share this with (a lug if you like). They are trying to convince you to join and share their enjoyment or hobby - I share my hobby with people, put lego on my desk and talk to people about it (why not, I think it's fun after all) 
    As an atheist I don't believe or partake of the hobby, which is fine, but I don't judge people for believing it. When they ask me if I want in I just politely say no - they are just trying to share something they enjoy. If I went in and told them there was no God and here's why then what good is that? Why would I bother provided they are not hurting anyone, I'll just leave them to their stuff like I want people to leave me to get on collecting Lego.
    It's a dog in the manger situation.
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    MrShinyAndNew said:

    Religion has been responsible for many offensive things in the world, so some people take offense when religion intrudes into their secular activities.
    Without religion it's unlikely any of us would exist.

    A Religion has a very important component - its rules. You can believe that those rules came from a supreme being, or that they're just the collective wisdom of centuries. Either way, most (not all) of those rules have tended to work to hold a particular society together. The tend to work better than normal laws because people are a bit more wary when there's somebody who knows what you did, without needing to investigate and find proof, and who can toss lightning bolts, or eternal damnation, around on a whim. Without that, it comes down to whether somebody thinks they can get away with anti-social behaviour. Religion also gives a justification for mortals to punish their peers.

    It seems to have worked quite well - because we're here.

    The rules for religions tend to have a lot in common, which comes back to them being defined by a deity that knows better, or elders who seen it all before and therefore know what's good for their citizens. The snag is that the rules for different religions have developed slightly differently and also have discrepancies which might be diametrically opposed - and yet both are supposed to be infallibly correct. Furthermore, not all the rules retain their usefulness. As we progress, some things that were once banned because they were dangerous are now safe and the ban is no longer necessary or appreciated.

    Having said that, those rules are a lot more in credit than debit. Religions may have caused problems, but they've also alleviated them on a much larger scale.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,356
    So, the real question really is: Should the Bricklink Seller have included the card? You did not ask for it and therefore they shouldn't have included it in the order. What if, instead of including a card, they inserted a polybag? What if they inserted a card AND a polybag. You did not ask for either, so technically you should complain about both. What if the card had a website that if you clicked on it, you were asked to answer a few questions and then receive a free Lego set; would the card now me less offensive? The whole thing is ridiculous because the "real" problem here is that the buyer received a sub par baseplate that was the wrong color. 
    bendybadgerbandit778SprinkleOtterkiki180703RirinetteTheBigLegoskiSumoLegolegomentalFurrysaurus
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,356
    If a Jehovah's Witness came to your door and offered you a free Lego set and all you had to do is listen to their spiel; would you do it? I know what you are thinking "It all depends on what Lego set it is" It could be a Galidor or maybe a UCS MF? 
    TheBigLegoski
  • MattsWhatMattsWhat Studley, UKMember Posts: 1,643
    edited June 2016
    ^or was the baseplate fine on dispatch and then struck down by a deity in transit as it was avoiding eye contact with the slightly pushy card?
    Pitfall69catwranglerTheBigLegoskiFurrysaurus
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,356
    edited June 2016
    Hahaha. That could be. Who knows what goes on in a package. Seriously, I have asked that question many times after receiving a parcel. "What the.....happened here?" :)
    SprinkleOtterTheBigLegoskiRainstorm26
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,356
    You know what would really be offensive?  If I included a PitfallCon 2016 flyer with every one of my orders. 
    plasmodiumcatwranglerTheBigLegoskiJenniBumblepantsgmonkey76Rainstorm26Furrysaurus
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,356
    ^Don't give me any ideas :)
    SumoLegogmonkey76Rainstorm26
  • SprinkleOtterSprinkleOtter Member Posts: 2,731
    If I may derail things further- what exactly is a PitfallCon?
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    Pitfall69 said:
    So, the real question really is: Should the Bricklink Seller have included the card? You did not ask for it and therefore they shouldn't have included it in the order. What if, instead of including a card, they inserted a polybag? What if they inserted a card AND a polybag. You did not ask for either, so technically you should complain about both. What if the card had a website that if you clicked on it, you were asked to answer a few questions and then receive a free Lego set; would the card now me less offensive? The whole thing is ridiculous because the "real" problem here is that the buyer received a sub par baseplate that was the wrong color. 
    Including a free LEGO poly with a lego order is somewhat relevant to what was bought, so less likely to cause offence.


  • datsunrobbiedatsunrobbie West Haven , CTMember Posts: 1,437
    edited June 2016
    ^Yep, because even getting a free poly will offend somebody, perhaps thinking they should have gotten a lower price on the item they ordered rather than a free poly they did not ask for. I've actually seen people get offended at buy-one get-one deals, arguing that they should just get a discount off the item they want rather than a second one for free.
  • tfranklin84tfranklin84 Member Posts: 103
    Good grief. This card represents everything that gets under my skin most in this whole world. If you're going to use these kinds of scare methods to get people thinking about eternal things (which I do not believe is a Biblical or a wise method to begin with), then for heaven's sake at least do your homework and try not to be the butt end of a joke. The whole idea of the rapture isn't even remotely Christian or Biblical (I won't go into details here for the sake of not being an annoying human being). And to go to the trouble to print cards based on that mumbo jumbo and send them with LEGO? Sorry, I need to cool off and go watch Left Behind with Nic Cage. Dem special effects!
    RirinetteTheBigLegoskiBOBJACK_JACKBOB
  • MrShinyAndNewMrShinyAndNew Member Posts: 240
    TigerMoth said:
    MrShinyAndNew said:

    Religion has been responsible for many offensive things in the world, so some people take offense when religion intrudes into their secular activities.
    Without religion it's unlikely any of us would exist.

    A Religion has a very important component - its rules. You can believe that those rules came from a supreme being, or that they're just the collective wisdom of centuries. Either way, most (not all) of those rules have tended to work to hold a particular society together. The tend to work better than normal laws because people are a bit more wary when there's somebody who knows what you did, without needing to investigate and find proof, and who can toss lightning bolts, or eternal damnation, around on a whim. Without that, it comes down to whether somebody thinks they can get away with anti-social behaviour. Religion also gives a justification for mortals to punish their peers.

    It seems to have worked quite well - because we're here.


    I'm going to have to partially agree and partially disagree with you. Yes, rules are important to keep the tribe from disintegrating. But that doesn't mean that religion is the source of those rules, or the best source of those rules, or the reason "we're all here". You can't just claim "We're here, what got us here must be optimal or necessary". Neither of those things is logically sound.

    Religious rules are designed to be adhered to no matter what: despite evidence that the rules are bad, despite objections to the rules, despite their unfairness. A few religious rules arguably stem from a desire to protect the tribe: an example is the prohibition of eating pork in Judaism, which is likely due to the inherent difficulty of keeping pork safe to eat in a desert. Some religious rules are designed to enforce an arbitrary power structure, such as the rules for buying and selling and keeping slaves (found all throughout the Old Testament).

    Was slavery a required feature of civilization in order to get us from then to here? Could a different set of rules have gotten us here better? I don't want to derail this thread further, or I could list dozens of examples of religion being destructive or harmful to society, and I could argue about which rules are truly needed for a society to advance. But I'll just point out that most of the advances I've seen in society over the last 300 years or so seem to happen in spite or religion, rather than because of it. YMMV.
    BOBJACK_JACKBOB
  • binaryeyebinaryeye USMember Posts: 1,734
    pharmjod said:
    "Hard core atheist" practice their own form of religion. Just as other faiths can't physically prove the existence of God, atheists can only "believe" there is no god. 
    A belief is not a religion. While I strongly believe there is not a dinosaur standing in my backyard at the moment, I'm not at home and can't confirm my belief. However, I don't practice my faith in this nor do I worship any deities associated with it.

    Also, you misunderstand atheism. It is not a belief in the absence of a god or gods, it is an absence of belief in a god or gods. The difference is critical.
    TigerMoth said:
    Without religion it's unlikely any of us would exist.
    Perhaps not in our current state. But humans are one of the most well-equipped species on the planet for adaptation and survival. While it's certainly possible we would have gone extinct, I think it would be difficult to argue it's probable.
    Pitfall69 said:
    So, the real question really is: Should the Bricklink Seller have included the card?
    It can be argued both ways, I think, which is why this thread is as long as it is.
    TheBigLegoskicatwrangler
  • AyliffeAyliffe the UK innit?Member Posts: 306
    *clicks on topic*

    *sees argument about religion*

    *closes tab*
    bandit778samiam391Furrysaurus
  • legobodlegobod CA USAMember Posts: 213
    If we only survived because of religion then why haven't all the nonreligious people died out in a blaze of violence instead of increasing in numbers which is definitely happening where I grew up in the UK. Hearing someone say they were religious in my area was weird and I really do mean weird. I only knew of one person in my year in school being religious, maybe there were more but I had no interest in finding out.

  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,356
    If I may derail things further- what exactly is a PitfallCon?
    To be honest; I don't exactly know either.
    TheBigLegoskiSprinkleOtterpharmjodBumblepantsdatsunrobbiegmonkey76Rainstorm26Furrysaurus
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343

    But that doesn't mean that religion is the source of those rules
    Religion was the power behind those rules, in a similar way to what penal systems are today - but far wider in extent.

    I'm not suggesting there has to any sort of divine participation* in the creation of those rules, just that by stating it, it becomes very persuasive.

    [* - people can make their own minds up on that one]
  • TheBigLegoskiTheBigLegoski Amsterdam, NederlandMember Posts: 1,288
    This thread is so amusing!
    Pitfall69
  • RirinetteRirinette CanadaMember Posts: 84
    Not in my wildest dreams I thought this thread would evolve into such a discussion/debate. Do I get a badge or something? Otherwise, I too, find it interesting/amusing and I am glad that after 135 comments nobody got insulted or yelled at. Keep debating... I am just making some popcorn. And thanks to @tfranklin84 for reminding me what a great movie Left Behind was. Hahaha.
  • TheBigLegoskiTheBigLegoski Amsterdam, NederlandMember Posts: 1,288
    I could not help it, but this thread just cracks me up, and then I had to think of the hilarious absurdity of 'Hannah and her Sisters'

    Now I am really ROTFLMAO though not PMS! (we are not there yet)
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,730
    In response to your last point- would it not be nice to tell a child that there is a Santa Clause, and not nice to tell a child that believes in Santa Clause that there is no Santa?
    What are you saying about Santa?  He eats the cookies and drinks the milk we leave out.
    SprinkleOtter
  • legobodlegobod CA USAMember Posts: 213
    I'd say everyone has been pretty nice and civil about this, an internet first?
    Ririnette
  • SprinkleOtterSprinkleOtter Member Posts: 2,731
    SumoLego said:
    In response to your last point- would it not be nice to tell a child that there is a Santa Clause, and not nice to tell a child that believes in Santa Clause that there is no Santa?
    What are you saying about Santa?  He eats the cookies and drinks the milk we leave out.
    He's a regular burglar!

    Then there's Sanda Clause, who tracks sand around your house.

    And Santa Claws, who scratches your floor when he breaks in.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    TigerMoth said:

    But that doesn't mean that religion is the source of those rules
    Religion was the power behind those rules, in a similar way to what penal systems are today - but far wider in extent.

    I'm not suggesting there has to any sort of divine participation* in the creation of those rules, just that by stating it, it becomes very persuasive.

    [* - people can make their own minds up on that one]
    Would the UK be better off or worse long term if it leaves the EU? Nobody knows and nobody ever will know. If we stay in, we will never know what would have happened if we left. If we left, we will never know what would have happened if we stayed in.

    It's the same with rules/laws and religion. We cannot test what would have happened if there was no religion, whether society would be similar or different. No doubt there would have been no wars based on religion. But they would have been based on something else that was different between societies. Would science have progressed faster or slower without religion. In some cases yes, in others no.

    Even if we get rid of religion now we still have some rules that came from religion. Of course many people can live good lives without religion. Is that inherent to people, or to people that have grown up in a society based on traditional religion. 

    None of these things can be tested.
    catwranglerkiki180703
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,730
    edited June 2016
    ^ Um, hello - alternate dimensions?

    Duh.

    (Haven't you seen X-Men: Days of Future Past?  It's movie - so I know it's true.  If we just think hard enough, we can see into alternative dimensions and figure out if we are better off not making a decision.  And then Cyclops isn't dead, and Colossus doesn't get ripped in half.

    It also helps if we screw-up a cinematic universe's continuity, and we can't come up with a coherent way to fix it.  But still fail at fixing it anyway.  How did I get adamantium claws if none of what happened happened?  It must have happened differently.  Right?)
    SprinkleOtter
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    CCC said:

    It's the same with rules/laws and religion. We cannot test what would have happened if there was no religion, whether society would be similar or different.
    Without rules there is no society. I doubt that anybody would argue for there being no rules.

    As Kant said, rules and laws are just empty suggestions unless backed by force. What religion provided was the force. It doesn't matter whether that force was real or not, just that people thought it might be.

    You can argue (with someone else) about the existence of one or more supreme beings, but religion itself was essential. One of the problems with modern society is that many people feel that they are not bound by any religion, aren't constantly being watched, and can do what they like. It's a bit like CCTV. CCTV cuts crime; more people believe that the universal CCTV system is a con.
    Of course many people can live good lives without religion.
    What is this "good" thing? It has no point of reference without religion, something that is demonstrated when two societies, with different definitions of "good" coming from different religions, get too close to each other.
    SprinkleOtteroldtodd33
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    Many Christians, Muslims and followers of other faiths also believe they can do what they like. You don't have to have a lack of belief in a god to be a bad person.
    datsunrobbie
  • FauchFauch FranceMember Posts: 2,255
    TigerMoth said:

    One of the problems with modern society is that many people feel that they are not bound by any religion, aren't constantly being watched, and can do what they like. It's a bit like CCTV. CCTV cuts crime; more people believe that the universal CCTV system is a con.
    not exactly, CCTV means that someone may be watching you. in religion case you only believe god may be watching you. CCTV brings the danger that someone actually has the power to spy on you and may use it maliciously. though religion presents a similar danger when someone is supposed to have been given special powers by god
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    CCC said:
    Many Christians, Muslims and followers of other faiths also believe they can do what they like.
    Not really - they're not actually followers of those faiths.

    In fact, from the point of view of that faith, they ought to be considered as lower than straight non-believers. A non-believer doesn't believe - end of. However, somebody who claims or pretends to be a believer but then chooses to do their own thing, is not only deliberately flaunting the rules but would also seem to be trying to pull the wool over the eyes of their chosen supreme being. It is fairly obvious that trying to con an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful entity is something that just is not going to happen. Somebody who pretends to be faithful is going to be seen through in double-quick time.
    oldtodd33
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 17,515
    So you think you can decide who is a follower of a particular faith based on their actions, and that it is not the decision of the individual? Some people believe that if they repent, then their god will forgive them. That it is not their fault that their body does immoral things but that their spirit is forgiven if they repent.

    Also religions evolve with society. When they start losing power (like Christianity is in the UK), then previous rules or traditions start to be less important if that means that they can retain power.
  • RedbullgivesuwindRedbullgivesuwind Brickset's Secret HeadquatersMember Posts: 1,731
    Personally, you are all going to look really silly when I become a force ghost and you lot don't. 
    PeteMcatwranglerFurrysaurus
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 11,730
    edited June 2016
    ^ We'll all be dead, so it won't matter.  And Force ghosts can't use Force Lightning, so what fun would that be?
    CCC said:
    Also religions evolve with society. When they start losing power (like Christianity is in the UK), then previous rules or traditions start to be less important if that means that they can retain power.
    Churches here just add laser shows, loud music and pastors wearing headsets so they can jestuculate wildly on a Broadway-like set.
    Redbullgivesuwind
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