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Resale Value

I have a UCS batmobile which I got a while ago for £100 - is complete but the box was opened and one of the bag was opened too. My question is -

is there any difference in the resale value of an open box but with majority of parts still sealed compared to one where it is fully build and then disassembled?


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Comments

  • xwingpilotxwingpilot UKMember Posts: 797
    edited October 2015
    Go on. Build it and display it ;-)
    AceCobra1
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,111
    Not really, unless you are thinking of selling it by parting it out (as individual parts.)
    AceCobra1
  • AceCobra1AceCobra1 UKMember Posts: 565
    Got bit too much in my hands at the moment to build this - just bought a job lot of lego which included the harry potter dragon's alley! Need to remove the megabloks first! Thanks guys :)
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    The fact that one of the internal bags is opened will probably put the value only slightly better than a used set.

    I would not expect to get the value than an NISB would command.

    However, I would expect it would be the first one to sell as compared to a fully assembled and dis-assembled set.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,111
    edited October 2015
    Remember the problem when one or more bags are open is checking for completeness. Without opening the other bags it is difficult to check for completeness - you need to go through the manual checking you have the part for each step. At which point the manual is used, not new, unless you did it from a PDF.
  • ryjayryjay Member Posts: 1,001
    it is a bargaining chip against new in box.  But if it is 100% complete and unused, it has a higher value then a used set that is complete.  If I was selling it, I'd go after the NISB market and see where it falls.  How you do this is up to you.  But I wouldn't be so quick to discount it, and as others said, you have to establish it is 100% complete and unused.
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    edited December 2015
    Hi Everyone,

    I didn't want to start a whole new thread for this, and it kind of fits in here.  I recently purchased a MISB 1st edition 10179 on Ebay and payed quite a bit for it, of course.  The set was advertised as being pristine, and for the most part it was.  What I received was pretty much what was pictured except for one detail.  The letter that comes with the first edition set had a pretty large stain on the back.

    My question:  How important is the condition of the letter in terms of resale?  The stain was not pictured, and the condition of the letter was not disclosed in the auction.

    Should I not be worried about this in terms of resale value?  I purchased this as a long term investment or maybe I'll build it with my son when he's older.  I mentioned it to the seller and he hasn't responded yet.  Should I drop it?  Or could this have a big enough impact on resale that I should mention it again?  It wouldn't bother me so much if it was disclosed and I hadn't paid significantly more for this set than other options with the idea that I'd get a mint set.  It's kinda bugging me and not sure if it should be. 

    Thanks in advance!  


  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited December 2015
    The 10179 is at a Holy Grail level of Lego.  That stain is value lost, depending on the severity.  The fact that he didn't disclose it is very bad form, terrible in fact.  Figure out what it's worth to you, and request that as a refund.
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    If it was advertised as a 1st edition, that letter better be in excellent condition.
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    Thanks guys.  This confirms my fears.  I'll see if I can get some communication going with the seller.  I haven't left feedback yet, so I at least have that going for me. 
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited December 2015
    Thanks guys.  This confirms my fears.  I'll see if I can get some communication going with the seller.  I haven't left feedback yet, so I at least have that going for me. 
    Be careful to never imply you will leverage feedback for him to act, because that would not look good to anyone that may arbitrate the situation.  You want to hold him accountable for his non-disclosure.  Ebay is insanely buyer-centric when it comes to buyers not receiving what was advertised (this includes non-disclosure).  Stay objective, stay factual, follow every directive and most importantly, define what you're looking to accomplish to make this right.  At the end of the day, if you paid with your credit card (and you should always pay with your credit card - i.e. keep a zero paypal balance), you always have that protection to fall back on as well.
    SumoLego
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    Thanks guys.  This confirms my fears.  I'll see if I can get some communication going with the seller.  I haven't left feedback yet, so I at least have that going for me. 
    Be careful to never imply you will leverage feedback for him to act, because that would not look good to anyone that may arbitrate the situation.  You want to hold him accountable for his non-disclosure.  Ebay is insanely buyer-centric when it comes to buyers not receiving what was advertised (this includes non-disclosure).  Stay objective, stay factual, follow every directive and most importantly, define what you're looking to accomplish to make this right.  At the end of the day, if you paid with your credit card (and you should always pay with your credit card - i.e. keep a zero paypal balance), you always have that protection to fall back on as well.
    Didn't mean to imply I'm going to threaten seller with bad feedback.  Only that I will leave the appropriate feedback for the non-disclosure if I don't hear from him.  He has kind of gone off the grid since the item was delivered but we had good communication during and after my offer was accepted. If I had already left positive feedack (I almost did, as I wasn't sure if letter was a big deal or not), I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on. 

    This is good advice.  I guess the problem is I'm not sure what would make this right.  Kind of hard to put a price on something like this.  That's why I'm hoping to start a fruitful dialogue with the seller.  Seems like a good guy, but the non-disclosure is bugging me. 

    What would Ebay do in this situation?  I'm not looking to return the item.  I'm just thinking a small adjustment to the price is in order to account for the state of the letter.  Worst case scenario (I don't hear from him at all) I will keep it and, as I mentioned, leave appropriate feedback.  

  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 19,111
    Have you also checked box seals are genuine?

    If you are selling it on, you are responsible for the contents when it comes to the next buyer.
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    CCC said:
    Have you also checked box seals are genuine?

    If you are selling it on, you are responsible for the contents when it comes to the next buyer.
    The box and the seals look fine.  There is nothing there to make me suspect it's not genuine or been tampered with in any way.  They have the numbers on them. 
  • ecmo47ecmo47 North CarolinaMember Posts: 2,101
    Figure out what the price difference is between NIB 1st edition and just a regular NIB set. That will give you an approximate number for a reasonable refund. A quick look at Bricklink gives me a rough figure of $200-$300.
    kiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    edited December 2015
    Update:  Had some communication with seller last night.  Claims he was unaware of the stain.  I mentioned the idea of a partial refund.  Today I see a $50 refund to my PayPal.

    Honestly, less than I was hoping for, but I'm guessing I should probably be happy I got anything.  Live and learn.  If and when I ever do resell - I will disclose the stain and my conscience will be clean! 

    All in all, happy to finally have my hands on this set, and other than the stain on the letter, it's a beauty!  Looked at it for about 10 minutes and then back in the shipping box, and 2 other boxes on top of that.  As I fight every urge in my body to crack it open and build it.  Someday I'll have to buy another (less expensive) one to build. 
    kiki180703
  • msandersmsanders Member Posts: 982
    ^Build it! I would be worried that something is wrong with it so I'd be curious to know that all the contents are there. Look at it this way - if you don't open it and down the line something is wrong, you'll have no rights. If you open it and its fine then you get the joy of building it. Open it now and something is wrong, then at least you can challenge the seller. 
    kiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    ^I'll have to live with the risk and uncertainty.  Like I said there is no evidence whatsoever that the seals aren't genuine or that anything is wrong with the set.  If anything, the fact that the letter isn't in perfect tells me more that the set is genuine than it does to discredit it.  Someone trying to sell me a box of garbage would have forged the easiest thing to forge.  Probably worth mentioning the seller has 100% feedback not that it completely eliminates risk. 
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,790
    Personally I think you've let him get away with murder if you accept.  For the level of money you are talking about for the complete Limited set, £50 would not touch the sides for me.  The premium you will have paid was for a Ltd issue which included a letter, certificate and tweaked box.  Any of those three are missing or defective, a huge chunk of that premium is eaten into.  He has a lot more than £50 to lose should you decide to return it.  IMHO.
    kiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    Legoboy said:
    Personally I think you've let him get away with murder if you accept.  For the level of money you are talking about for the complete Limited set, £50 would not touch the sides for me.  The premium you will have paid was for a Ltd issue which included a letter, certificate and tweaked box.  Any of those three are missing or defective, a huge chunk of that premium is eaten into.  He has a lot more than £50 to lose should you decide to return it.  IMHO.

    Let me ask you this - What do you think the value is for a the MISB set + letter (with stain on back) + original shipping container?  Or if you don't have an answer to that, what is the value if everything is mint?  If you have an estimate for that, then I can determine if what I've paid is too much and if maybe I should reject the $50 and seek a larger refund or even return the set.
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited December 2015
    Wait, he sent you $50 without even discussing with you the amount that would make you happy first?  That's presumptuous and a bit insulting.

    Ask him for $200 more, and cite Bricklink as your source.  You could threaten return.  If it was free shipping, you'll have to pay return shipping.  If it wasn't, he'll have to pay for it.  If it's the latter, you could use this fact to influence him to just send you the $200 and be done with it, cause it'll suck (for him) if he has to deal with a return.  Also, you're being nice here too by not opening a not-as-described case, which dings sellers (another thing for you to bring up on the "influence" front).

    Frankly, he's being an ignorant asshat here, and playing with fire on a multi-thousand dollar set.
    kiki180703SumoLego
  • samiam391samiam391 A log cabin in PA, United StatesMember Posts: 4,348
    I agree with both comments asking for more.

    Sending a partial refund of only $50 on a set you bought for several thousand dollars, without even discussing an amount you think is fair, is downright insulting and no way to do business.   
    kiki180703
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,790
    Legoboy said:
    Personally I think you've let him get away with murder if you accept.  For the level of money you are talking about for the complete Limited set, £50 would not touch the sides for me.  The premium you will have paid was for a Ltd issue which included a letter, certificate and tweaked box.  Any of those three are missing or defective, a huge chunk of that premium is eaten into.  He has a lot more than £50 to lose should you decide to return it.  IMHO.

    Let me ask you this - What do you think the value is for a the MISB set + letter (with stain on back) + original shipping container?  Or if you don't have an answer to that, what is the value if everything is mint?  If you have an estimate for that, then I can determine if what I've paid is too much and if maybe I should reject the $50 and seek a larger refund or even return the set.
    I'm not familiar with the US market, but I'd probably be asking for say 10% of the market rate.  The slightest mark on a sealed box like that can see the value plummet so a stained letter for me is considerably worse.  Without knowing what you paid makes it difficult to determine whether you got a good deal or not, but if the seller is happy to return $50 without you even asking, it is still a good deal for him and he'd be willing to return more.  Like I said, it will cost hi far more than $50 in fees and postage just to return it.
    kiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    Oh man.  You guys are good at getting me riled up.  Lol.  You're right though, I should be upset that he refunded $50 without a discussion or agreement. 
    Legoboykiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    The more I talk to you guys about this, the more I'm starting to wonder if I should bring the set to a professional and have it looked over.  Is that typically done with Legos of this value?  Any advice? 
    kiki180703
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    I'm curious as to what professional you would possibly bring this to?
    kiki180703SumoLego
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    I'm curious as to what professional you would possibly bring this to?
    Does AFA do Lego sets?  I guess that was the only thing I had in mind. 
    kiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    I've requested an additional $200 based on the advice here. 
    kiki180703
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    A different sort of professional might be somebody that restores documents.

    If the stain wasn't there, you would presumably have been happy to pay whatever you did. So can it be removed?
    kiki180703SumoLego
  • samiam391samiam391 A log cabin in PA, United StatesMember Posts: 4,348
    You could post a picture of the stain here? 
    kiki180703SumoLego
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    samiam391 said:
    You could post a picture of the stain here? 
    I love this query.  In no way could it be taken out of context...

    Although I am interested to see the extent of the damage.
    kiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    Hi Everyone, requested pics -

    On closer look, it almost looks more like a dirt smudge than a stain.  The seller mentioned I could try "erasing" it.  After refusing to refund me the extra $200 of course...  But if that doesn't work, maybe this is something that could be removed by a professional. 
    kiki180703
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    edited December 2015
    I would definitely see how much a document restoration professional would cost - and that may be my counter-offer for reimbursement.

    (I really want to know how that stain got there!)
    kiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    SumoLego said:
    I would definitely see how much a document restoration professional would cost - and that may be my counter-offer for reimbursement.

    (I really want to know how that stain got there!)
    You and me both!  It's almost like it's tape residue or something.  It's entirely possible it happened during the original shipment.  Seller is claiming he has no idea how it got there and wasn't aware of it.  I'm not sure if I buy that because when I look closer at original photos from his add, you can make out the darker area with the smudge through the paper. 
    kiki180703
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    (I'm currently digging out my UCS MF to see what the letter looks like!)
    monstblitzkiki180703
  • TheLoneTensorTheLoneTensor MericaMember Posts: 3,950
    edited December 2015
    At the end of the day, this is an SP (seller problem), not a BP (buyer problem).  I would suggest you open a not-as-described case and take it formally through the process. Having you deal with the hassle of engaging some kind of document professional is crazy talk.  Assuming that smudge/stain/smear was not disclosed, he's got nowhere to go.  From what you've told us, he has given no indication that he's willing to be fair about this.

    Again, if you end up asking for a refund, and this was free shipping, you'll have to eat the shipping/insurance/signature cost to get it back to him.  If it wasn't free shipping, then you're in a good spot.  Was it?
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    Looks like the letter is in the actual box, and not the shipping box.  (As I've only taken the set out of the original shipping box, I'm not about to do that now.)

    Sorry!
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    I think it depends on whether our friend can be made 'whole'.  

    I'm sure he doesn't want to go through the hassle of sending it back and having to risk a future transaction that could be worse.

    If there is a reasonable cost to restore the document, that ought to be explored.  Or if there is a reasonable credit that makes everyone happy.
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    SumoLego said:
    Looks like the letter is in the actual box, and not the shipping box.  (As I've only taken the set out of the original shipping box, I'm not about to do that now.)

    Sorry!
    Wait, you mean in the sealed box?  Or the shipping box that the sealed box was in?  Most sets advertised as sealed include pics of the letter which would be impossible if it was in the actual Lego box, right?  I'm probably just confused.

    Anyway, unfortunately (in this case) shipping was free. 

    And Sumo is right, I'd like to avoid sending it back if something else can be worked out.  I don't think I will find too many sets out there in as good as shape as this so I just need to figure out if I can be comfortable with this letter the way it is.
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    BTW, I do appreciate all the great advice.  I've only been posting on this forum for 3 days, and already you guys have helped me out so much with this and others have helped with other Lego questions.  This is a great forum of collectors.
    kiki180703
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    SumoLego said:

    I'm sure he doesn't want to go through the hassle of sending it back and having to risk a future transaction that could be worse.
    And more expensive.

    It doesn't matter whose problem it is. That is crazy talk. You've got something rare, in your hands, and currently you've got it a price that's less than you would have paid. The question is whether it can be rectified.

    A stain is a problem because it has to be removed within the paper. This appears to be on the surface and as such is quite likely to be easily removable - possibly, even with something as simple as a pencil eraser.  (No, I'm not advocating that you try that.)
    kiki180703
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    Now I'm not sure.  Maybe I don't have a 1st edition?

    I presume it was in the actual box and not the shipping container.

    Oh well.  I suppose I learned something new today.
    kiki180703
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 13,252
    Definitive proof!  Apparently, I have a comparatively valueless non-1st edition.


    kiki180703Pitfall69
  • Rainstorm26Rainstorm26 Chicago Burbs USA (and sometimes Ireland)Member Posts: 1,004
    Why don't you build it?
    TheLoneTensorkiki180703SumoLegoPitfall69
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    I don't know Sumo, from what I see on Ebay definitely still plenty of value for the non-first edition, especially if they are in good shape.
    SumoLego
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    The cost differential between a NISB is huge, ~$2,000. It actually makes more sense for him to keep it sealed and buy a used one to build, then sell on after. 
    TheLoneTensorkiki180703
  • monstblitzmonstblitz Alexandria, VAMember Posts: 622
    Sell agreed to give me an extra $100 for a total of $150.  I think it's a fair compromise.  I feel whole.  Thanks again for the advice everyone! 
    kiki180703LegoboySumoLegoraygunnPitfall69TheLoneTensorsamiam391ricecake
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,790
    Where do we send the bill?  ;)

    Good news.  With regards to the 'erasing' method, that is exactly what I would try.  I think most of it will come out, or at least 90% fade.
    kiki180703monstblitzPitfall69
  • arathemisarathemis sometimes here, sometimes thereMember Posts: 368
    edited December 2015
    Even though I did not give any input in this thread, I was watching it closely.

    From my point of view this seems like a fair compromise, the sum of 150$. And if you look into it, you might even be able to remove that stain cheaply.
    I was thinking at a pencil eraser too as TigerMoth mentioned. I would try it on a small corner first and see if there are any results.
    Disclaimer: It is only an advice. You will have to live with the consequences though if anything worse happens to that paper, not me. So use it at your own risk :D.
    kiki180703monstblitz
  • pharmjodpharmjod 1,170 miles to Wall Drug, USAMember Posts: 2,912
    edited December 2015
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