General Marvel Discussion

dmcc0

^^ and Disney, people love to hate Disney apparently.  Add a little (perceived or otherwise) political correctness and a beloved franchise and the internet loses it's shit.  Marvel seem to have been immune to most of the Disney bashing that gets mentioned when talking about Star Wars, although probably due to nostalgia more than anything.  

Having looked back at Larsons comments I don't really see what the fuss is about. Certainly nothing there IMHO that should make people boycott films or organise campaigns to review bomb them etc.  I think some folk are just looking for stuff to take offence at or be offended on someone else's behalf sometimes.

BOBJACK_JACKBOB

On Captain Marvel -

Baby_Yoda said:

"much of the audience was preparing to be lectured, regardless of whether that's a fair assumption. "

I was one of those people. I was aware of two points Brie Larson made before the film -

1 - The thing about more representation in people interviewing her - this didn't bother me in the slightest. I am not a movie interveiwer, it has no bearing on me and perhaps I would actually benefit from questions from a more diverse group of people. I doubt it, but who knows? I didn't take this thing to be about her not wanting a certain group of people seeing the film.

2 - "A Wrinkle in Time wasn't made for 40 year old white guys". This I had an issue with. The main reason why was that she had nothing to do with making the film (as far as I'm aware) so on what authority was she speaking? Also, if her statement is true, why wasn't it made for 40YOWM? Also, was it specifically made not for 40YOWM? What about 41YOWM? 39YOWM? 40YOblackM? 40YOWwomen? WM in general? Men in general? White people in general? People in general? LOL

It was a ludicrous, idiotic statement that doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny. It was a disservice to everyone who worked on that film, everyone who was a fan of the film and everyone who was a fan of the source material, and in all three groups there would have been 40YOWM.

For the first time I went into an MCU movie with aprehensions. I was, as Baby_Yoda said, prepared, even expecting, to be lectured. I was pleasently surprised to find that I wasn't. Captain Marvel wasn't a great movie by any means. I would rate it 7/10 (while admitting that as a fan of the MCU and generally veiwing all their films as part of a greater whole and not so much individually I probably added a point or two on because it is an MCU film). But I didn't feel lectured. I didn't feel that this was a "girl power" film.

I felt that, as a very close to 40 year old white man, this film WAS made for me. And for everyone else in the theatre. The same thing I felt about A Wrinkle in Time.

Captain Marvel is a hero. Brie Larson is not. I would hope that anyone who found her comments troubling would be capable of seperating the two.

BOBJACK_JACKBOB

J0rgen said:

Spider-man: Far From Home images have leaked

Thanks for that. Mysterio looks great. As does the Black Spider-man and Peter Parker. The venice set is good, not sure about Hydro-Man - he looks a bit blocky, not very liquidy (I know, it's LEGO!). Molton-Man on the otherhand looks great.

Bosstone100

It's funny how Brie Larson can say that CM isn't made for white men when white men are the ones who kept comic books relevant in the first place buying them all this time. Comic books used to only be for dorks and whatnot. Now it's mainstream. Know your audience. Now it's time to kill off Carol Danvers and give Monica Rambeau the job. After all, she was the second Captain Marvel. There's a strong black female lead for ya. 

FowlerBricks

I actually really enjoyed Captain Marvel. It wasn't a super standout film, but it was a good movie. Goose was great.

dmcc0

@BOBJACK_JACKBOB As another nearly 40YO white male I had zero issue with that statement and actually agree with it, although I do think it was rather clumsily worded.  If she had simply said that the negative reviews were from folks outside the target audience and should be taken with a pinch of salt, then maybe people would have reacted differently; maybe even agreed with her.  Would people have had the same reaction if the demographics had been different?  Say a young male actor commenting that a certain movie wasn't made for 40YO women?

I'm not sure I understand your point about her comment being a disservice to everyone involved with the film though. She didn't say 40YO males weren't allowed to like it, or work on it, or like the source material; just that they weren't really the target demographic for the movie.  

As for Wrinkle in Time, I'm not familiar with the source material and I haven't seen the movie so can comment on whether I'm the target demographic or not, but given that I've no real desire to watch it and the books are listed on Amazon as children's fiction/fantasy then guessing I'm probably not, but who knows; you've said you did feel it was made for you so maybe it was?

BOBJACK_JACKBOB

dmcc0 said:

As another nearly 40YO white male I had zero issue with that statement and actually agree with it, although I do think it was rather clumsily worded.  If she had simply said that the negative reviews were from folks outside the target audience and should be taken with a pinch of salt, then maybe people would have reacted differently; maybe even agreed with her.

I didn't have an issue because I am a 40 year old white male. I had an issue with the fact that she used age, gender and race as a basis to dismiss someone's opinion when that person's profession (film reviewer) exactly qualifies them to have and give their opinion. 

Would people have had the same reaction if the demographics had been different?  Say a young male actor commenting that a certain movie wasn't made for 40YO women?

I think I would have. I can't envisage a scenario where it is OK to dismiss someone's opinion on an 'all ages' film based on their age, gender and/or colour of their skin.

I'm not sure I understand your point about her comment being a disservice to everyone involved with the film though. She didn't say 40YO males weren't allowed to like it, or work on it, or like the source material; just that they weren't really the target demographic for the movie. 

I would like to think that the people involved with such a diverse and inclusive film, may not appreciate someone speaking on their behalf in a divisive and dismissive way.

As for Wrinkle in Time, I'm not familiar with the source material and I haven't seen the movie so can comment on whether I'm the target demographic or not, but given that I've no real desire to watch it and the books are listed on Amazon as children's fiction/fantasy then guessing I'm probably not, but who knows; you've said you did feel it was made for you so maybe it was?

It's not so much about whether someone is the target demographic or not. It's about allowing people the freedom to enjoy something on their own terms without their opinion being belittled or dismissed. Very few people here are the target demographic for LEGO, yet we all enjoy it and have opinions on it. Those opinions are, IMO, as valid as the next persons. If someone on here said that they didn't value an opinion on LEGO because that opinion came from a 27 year old asian woman, and LEGO isn't made for her, I would think that person is probably a bit of a dick.

Having said all that and having seen Captain Marvel, I agree that her comments were mostly harmless, clumsy and should be taken with a pinch of salt. I was concerned going in but as I said I enjoyed the film.

BOBJACK_JACKBOB

Bosstone100 said:

It's funny how Brie Larson can say that CM isn't made for white men when white men are the ones who kept comic books relevant in the first place buying them all this time.

I don't believe that she said any such thing.

SumoLego

I find it strange that anyone would be offended by someone offering their thoughts on the 'target' audience of a movie.  

This is why we have a ratings system for movies, television, and music.  This is why Marvel movies have one cuss word, scant nudity (besides a Hulk butt) and cater to the PG-13 rating.

There is clearly a market for Captain Marvel.  Thus the movie.  If this movie gives my daughter the impression that superheroes are more than just hulky males, then great.  If she wants to beat up everyone in the neighborhood and school... then not so great.

Besides, does anyone care that 'A Wrinkle in Time' is a kids' movie?  If that movie spoke to me in some profound way, then great.  It didn't - but if I got sucked into some time/space jail, I would hope Oprah, Reese Witherspoon, my daughter, MJ, Spock, Spock Prime or Wonder Woman would come save me.  

I was certainly not the intended audience for Elmo in Grouchland.  But I learned it is not nice to take things that do not belong to you.  It spoke to me.

jnscoelho

Film age rating is like LEGO age rating - nobody gives a damn, but they have to do it anyway. And it is used as an argument when it's convenient. ;)

dmcc0

@BOBJACK_JACKBOB Surely if a studio is making a film for a certain demographic then they are more interested in what that demographic thinks of it?  Making a film to appeal to male black teens? While they'll want as many people as possible to see it, do they really care what a 70 year old elderly white woman thinks of it? Of course they don't.  Is that an acceptable dismissal of someone's opinion based on gender/race etc?

Larson was merely pointing out that the vast majority of reviewers/film critics were middle aged white men and she would like to see more diversity and see reviews from more people in the target demographic, but as middle aged white men are apparently the vast majority of film critics, her comments are taken out of context and seen as an attack on their gender/race/age and she's branded a man-hating racist feminist or whatever.

It's not about belittling or dismissing someone's opinion either. It's about wanting opinions from a wide range of people to give a more rounded picture.
If the reviews on shop.lego for example were all from AFOLs then I'm sure a lot of people would dismiss them based on age, in the same way that AFOLs would probably dismiss reviews if they were all by kids/teens. 

The LEGO comparison here is not really relevant anyway.  LEGO is gender/race neutral so no real comparisons there and this site is a rather niche subsection of LEGO users so not really indicative of the LEGO community as a whole. Having said that, I have seen it a few times on here where someone has a negative comment about a set or theme and others have commented that they're not the target audience so it does happen here too.

SumoLego

dmcc0 said:

...niche...

Who you callin' niche?  We're just a small subsection of the LEGO-buying public!

BOBJACK_JACKBOB

@dmcc0 thanks for your replies, I appreciate them. I enjoy a debate and am always hoping to understand and learn from differing opinions. I will try to keep this short as I feel it is in danger of dominating the thread. However, you have asked questions of me and I will try to address them.

dmcc0 said:

Surely if a studio is making a film for a certain demographic then they are more interested in what that demographic thinks of it?  Making a film to appeal to male black teens? While they'll want as many people as possible to see it, do they really care what a 70 year old elderly white woman thinks of it? Of course they don't.

Is that an acceptable dismissal of someone's opinion based on gender/race etc?

No.

Larson was merely pointing out that the vast majority of reviewers/film critics were middle aged white men and she would like to see more diversity and see reviews from more people in the target demographic, but as middle aged white men are apparently the vast majority of film critics, her comments are taken out of context and seen as an attack on their gender/race/age and she's branded a man-hating racist feminist or whatever.

I understand that now. What I was admitting to was that I was one of those people who heard a small soundbite, one sentence, that seemed to be unreasonably targetting a very specific group of people.

It's not about belittling or dismissing someone's opinion either. It's about wanting opinions from a wide range of people to give a more rounded picture.

Which she expressed a lot more clearly and eloquently in a later interview. The one about not taking chairs from the table but adding more chairs.

The LEGO comparison here is not really relevant anyway.

I think it is very relevant, we are a group of people, outwith the target demographic.

LEGO is gender/race neutral so no real comparisons there

I would consider both LEGO and the film A Wrinkle in Time to also be gender/race neutral, and so a fair comparison.

this site is a rather niche subsection of LEGO users so not really indicative of the LEGO community as a whole.

Exactly why I think it is a relevant comparison.

Having said that, I have seen it a few times on here where someone has a negative comment about a set or theme and others have commented that they're not the target audience so it does happen here too.

There's a big difference when talking about an individual as opposed to a sweeping statement about a group of people.

I suspect there could be one or two people on this forum enjoying this back and forth in some way but a lot more that are not. Might I suggest taking this to PM if you wish to continue? Again, thank you for your response.

dmcc0

@BOBJACK_JACKBOB no need to take to PM, I don't think there much more to add here.
I appreciate the debate as well, always interesting to hear others point of view. We've both got opinions and, although we clearly disagree on some of the points, I don't think we're actually disagreeing about the sentiment of what she said and that she didn't express that very well initially.

BOBJACK_JACKBOB

dmcc0 said:

I don't think we're actually disagreeing about the sentiment of what she said and that she didn't express that very well initially.

This ^. Totally agree. I think our opinions are aligned more than opposed.Thank you.

Brainslugged

BOBJACK_JACKBOB said:

Might I suggest taking this to PM if you wish to continue? Again, thank you for your response.

Screw the PM. Let's settle this behind the bike sheds after class.

I think a bit of sensible debate is a good thing. Especially in the age we're living in of people being polarised by Brexit and Trump and how words like racist and sexist get thrown around so readily. 

Baby_Yoda

I guess you can't really express your entire argument in a single, tiny tweet. What she said was vague enough to almost have a double meaning: you can either see "she wants more diversity" or "she wants less diversity" in her statement, even though the former turned out to be her intention. Kind of like that picture of the dress, or that yanny/laurel sound file, you might initially see something completely different to someone else, even though you're looking at exactly the same thing.

CaptainRogers

I just appreciate that people have clearly spelled out their own opinions and listened to others without resorting to name-calling. Gives me a little hope for humanity (probably because I don't have a Twitter account).

guachi

Larson's comments about Wrinkle in Time were stupid.

First, it was clear she hadn't actually looked at the reviews. I did. The result? White men liked the movie more than the combined ratings of everyone else.

Second, A Wrinkle in Time was written in 1962. There are a lot of people of many ages who read and loved the book. I did in about 1984. I'm a white guy and I was 43 when the movie came out. I was really excited for it. The audience for a movie based on a book are... wait for it... fans of the book. Built in audience! And many of the fans of this book are white men of various ages.

A Wrinkle in Time bombed because it wasn't very good. Reviewers gave it tepid reviews because it wasn't very good.

Baby_Yoda

CaptainRogers said:

I just appreciate that people have clearly spelled out their own opinions and listened to others without resorting to name-calling.

guachi said:

Larson's comments about Wrinkle in Time were stupid.

No comment.

FowlerBricks

A Wrinkle in time bombed because Mrs Which turned into a giant flying lettuce leaf

SumoLego

And, arguably, the budget and scope of the movie didn't quite fit the targeted demographic.  It was also released in late Winter/early Spring, which can be tough for a kids' film based on a book.

Although, Disney foisted the Nutcracker on us in the holdiay season and that was a tremendous miscalculation.

VorpalRyu

Has anyone come across info on when & how the #40334 Avengers Tower will be available? Holding off purchases of Marvel after the fiasco that was the #30460 Rex's Plantimal Ambush GWP.

The_Rancor

VorpalRyu said:

Has anyone come across info on when & how the #40334 Avengers Tower will be available? Holding off purchases of Marvel after the fiasco that was the #30460 Rex's Plantimal Ambush GWP.

Someone shared a Store Calendar online that suggested it would be available in April some time, if not yet maybe later in the month. The resolution wasn't great when i was looking at it

LuLego

^^ I came on to ask the exact same question! 

Bumblepants

VorpalRyu said:

Has anyone come across info on when & how the #40334 Avengers Tower will be available? Holding off purchases of Marvel after the fiasco that was the #30460 Rex's Plantimal Ambush GWP.

Order enough to meet the $99 threshold, live in Not Australia, make sure to stay up late to order at midnight and have the item not add to cart and hope the warehouse guys put it in anyway or wait until the next day and hope it isn't sold out already. Invoke black magic to prevent your GWP from getting crushed in shipping. 

VorpalRyu

Bumblepants said:

VorpalRyu said:

Has anyone come across info on when & how the #40334 Avengers Tower will be available? Holding off purchases of Marvel after the fiasco that was the #30460 Rex's Plantimal Ambush GWP.

Order enough to meet the $99 threshold, live in Not Australia, make sure to stay up late to order at midnight and have the item not add to cart and hope the warehouse guys put it in anyway or wait until the next day and hope it isn't sold out already. Invoke black magic to prevent your GWP from getting crushed in shipping. 

Only $99? That would still be better than the deal they had with #30460, for us it was $200 of TLM2 stuff to get the GWP, but it only triggered if one of items was worth $90. Had to order $100 of stuff to get the Easter Chick Pod, even though the promos on the site say it only has to be $60 worth of purchases. Most of my GWP items have arrived in good condition, generally the box condition isn't an issue, as I usually build them.

Baby_Yoda

My 60 years of the brick gwp was crushed in postage. To be fair, it was a pretty flimsy box, and this was last year so it would have travelled halfway across the world. I got it at midnight and I sacrificed a lamb to Cthulhu, plus everyone forgets Tasmania is in Australia, so I think I did everything right, though I guess I could have lit some Galidor on fire for them too. 

SumoLego

Bumblepants said:
Invoke black magic to prevent your GWP from getting crushed in shipping. 

Don't forget the sacrifice of MegaConstrux to your Berard Bobblehead.

kbw

Random thought: I’ve always silently wondered why Lego always painted Cap’s helmet on the minfig head rather than giving him a helmet to put over his head like the Flash. Interesting to me that they changed that up on these new sets. #ThingsThatMayOnlyInterestMe

CaptainRogers

^I'm sure many of us have wanted a Cap with an actual helmet. And now we finally get one! 

BOBJACK_JACKBOB

^Unfortunately the face print really lets this figure down. Kinda looks like he has on Kabuki make-up!

SumoLego

The helmet piece is quite bulbous.

Drmnez

Anyone see/have build instructions/partlist for the event at Disneyland on 05apr? Looks like a mini build of the captain marvel quinjet

SumoLego

SumoLego said:

And so they will languish a bit longer... for the movies.  Unless based on cartoon or some other property, I wouldn't expect any new LEGO sets.  (Plus, it's 18-24 months for a set to get produced, anyway.)

Lookie-lookie!  Some occassional informed speculation has paid off.  I knew it!  I am the smartest... person... ever!

https://theplaylist.net/kevin-feige-x-men-marvel-five-years-20190408/

I'm desparately trying to avoid baselessly predicting that a Mutant or two will appear in advance of this five-year window.

(And I'm sure some smart folks at Disney/Marvel/LucasFilm will smartly keep the properties separate.  There is a reason we don't have SW/Marvel crossovers and Disney Princesses appearing in Pirates of the Caribbean.)

I do fear audiences will be less interested in the second wave of MCU films.  Absent the original Avengers.  Although, the movies with the newest characters did the best.  (BP, CM. Spider-Man, GotG.)

Baby_Yoda

The MCU has created a huge mainstream attraction to Marvel. Certainly, a lot of fans are going to see everything they like about the films die, leaving them little motivation to continue following them. However, I'm sure the focus on less-traditional characters in the future will successfully maintain enough interest, especially among younger fans. I know plenty of people, especially women, who would never have cared about Black Panther or Dr Strange before, but are now dedicated to seeing every new release at the cinema as soon as they can. The franchise has done a really good job of not butchering the stories that comic fans love while adding enough spice to attract a whole new audience. They just need to continue that level of quality, which is honestly my major concern.

J0rgen

They need to shake up the formula if they want to keep going, because Ant-Man and the Wasp and Captain Marvel were stale AF. I think a lot of people, myself included, would have shied away from Captain Marvel if they didn't feel they needed to see it before Endgame, and with that urgency gone, I think the box office will be significantly lower from this point on.

VorpalRyu

After reading up on the plot for CM, didn't see it as vital to see before Endgame, so still have not seen CM, will be seeing Endgame this week soon after it comes out (due for release Wednesday).

SumoLego

J0rgen said:

...I think the box office will be significantly lower from this point on.

This is my impression as well - but the two biggest non-Avengers team-up movies are Black Panther and Captain Marvel.  And both were very, very successful.

J0rgen

SumoLego said:

J0rgen said:

...I think the box office will be significantly lower from this point on.

This is my impression as well - but the two biggest non-Avengers team-up movies are Black Panther and Captain Marvel.  And both were very, very successful.

Both BP and CM were leading up to one of the conclusive Avengers movies, so I don't think they're quite indicative of what's to come. Of course the Avengers pull wasn't all of it, but it certainly helped.

Bumblepants

Spiderman FFH seems like it is coming too quickly after Endgame. I want to see it but I will probably skip it theatrically and catch it on video in the Fall. I've enjoyed the Marvel series a lot but I am getting fatigue for sure.

SumoLego

I posit that Ant-Man & the Wasp should have had a similar bump, but didn't make anywhere near the $450M and $700M North American box office.  And it was in the middle of the summer, whereas CM and BP were 'dead time' releases.

(And that's not to say A/W wasn't a big success as well, but not on the same scale as CM and BP.)

All of that said, I am skeptical that Marvel can sustain the same level of success with non-original Avengers.  And much of 'success' is how these movies are perceived.  It doesn't make for good clickbait to report that Solo was a slightly profitable.  It's flashy to report that it 'didn't meet expectations' and thus was the biggest disappointment of 2018.

Either way, I'm buying my tickets to GotG 3, BP 2, Spider-Man: Far From Home, CM 2, and I'll probably try out the Eternals.  So, I'm a complete mark.

I didn't see Aquaman in theatres, so that was really my first instance of not supporting a mainstream comic book movie.  It was terrible and I'm sure we'll get another installment.  (I also refused to see the Justice League, and perhaps we'll be spared another one of those trainwrecks.)

jnscoelho

^ Black Panther, Aquaman and Captain Marvel have similar IMDB ratings (but the first has around double the voters than each of the other two), so the overall perception seems to be similar. I haven't seen CM, but I'd say that BP and Aquaman were equally not-so-good.

After JL, I kind of refused to go see Aquaman in the cinema... While for Marvel, Infinity War aside, it's been a long time since I've watched an MCU movie in the cinema... If any, in fact. Not that I'm fatigued, and I read a lot of Marvel titles when I was a kid/teenager, even more than DC, but nowadays Marvel characters just don't interest me that much.

Fatigue exists only for the X-Men, The Last Stand almost ruined X-Men for me and Days of Future Past finished the job. Maybe that's why Feige is in no rush to get the mutants up and running, many people are probably tired of the X-Men and their crappy stories.

Umandraug

jnscoelho said:

Fatigue exists only for the X-Men, The Last Stand almost ruined X-Men for me and Days of Future Past finished the job. Maybe that's why Feige is in no rush to get the mutants up and running, many people are probably tired of the X-Men and their crappy stories.

But aren’t SOOO excited for their second attempt at the Dark Phoenix saga? Won’t that be SOOO good, and not the last dying gasp of bloated franchise?

I mean, I stopped after DotFP too. Apocalypse didn’t really appeal to me. From what I’ve heard it’s not anything remarkable. Dark Phoenix doesn’t look like anything special. My guess is it’ll be pretty much Last Stand but with better special effects, and the whole “evil entity possesses someone and it manifests as schizophrenia with superpowers” trope.

The_Rancor

^ Legion (ahem)

SumoLego

Bumblepants said:

I've enjoyed the Marvel series a lot but I am getting fatigue for sure.

I definitely agree - you'd think they would want to space these releases out.  But - I'm sure some smart person over at Sony wants to take advantage of the summer movie season.  

I'm sure Disney wants to avoid bumping up against Frozen and Star Wars.  You don't really want to go head-to-head with yourself.

SumoLego

jnscoelho said:

Fatigue exists only for the X-Men...

I think there is a difference between pure sequel after sequel than the team-up structure of Avengers movies.  It's not really a balanced comparison.  I think we'd all like to see some separate X-Men stories that could end up tied together in a team-up movie.

Logan and Deadpool are good examples.

Some franchises produce diminished returns (Transformers, X-Men, etc.) and some continue to do better (Fast and the Furious).

jnscoelho

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was only talking about myself and my X-Men fatigue. 

While Logan was pretty good, imo, I didn't like its ending (but not because he died, just the context and way in which he did) and I don't really like Deadpool that much, for me it's ridiculously overrated. I try to like it, because I really like Ryan Reynolds, but it's just... meh.
But these are far better than anything after X2, for sure. 

klinton

Baby_Yoda said:

 The franchise has done a really good job of not butchering the stories that comic fans love 

I'm sorry, but....what? Are we watching the same films? Like, at all? 

SumoLego

I thought someone was atleast trying with Logan, but the whole 'clone of the main character' bad-guy was an uninspired story.

I agree with your observation with respect to franchise fatigue.  I like First Class and Days of Future's Past, but Apocalypse was a boring monster-movie and Dark Phoenix doesn't look much better.  (And there's no Wolverine.)

Any movie that can suck every bit of charisma and energy out of Oscar Issacs should probably not command a sequel.