Does anyone still want Western LEGO to make a comeback?

Free_Legos_Welcome

My all time favorite series that Lego has ever created has to be western and the series has unbelievable potential set wise so why did it get such a small run? Is it because Lego fans across the ocean have no interest since it technically doesn't apply to them? Maybe the western theme is not something that Lego wants to promote (what with the drunks and guns) but it seems to me that there is a huge market at least here in the states. This is my first post so if it is in the wrong place or has any other issues let me know.

natro220

I think you answered your own question. I know I've read that Western movies usually do terrible overseas as opposed to in America, because it is uniquely part of our history and most of the rest of the planet doesn't really care. I don't think a lot of the Lone Ranger sets sold all that particularly well - partly because the movie was considered a failure. I doubt we'd see a non-licensed Western theme anytime soon...but that's my opinion.

tamamahm

I think the other thing to keep in mind is how many kids play Wild West or westerns? I can't think of a single child I know across all of my kids friends from preschool until now that have ever played any version of Wild West/western pretend play.

Having said that.... TLR Mine has been one of the best sets in terms of playability for my kiddo, and was one of his top wants last year. That had nothing to do with a Western theme, but due to the features on the mine.

Chubbles

The problem is a lack of good Western films and tv shows on modern tv. It's one of my favorite genres but there just isn't anything out there today.

cheshirecat

Do castle sets sell in america? I guess so, so I'm sure western sets would sell here just the same. The trouble is they're just not current. No good TV nor films in the last god knows how many years.

plasmodium

I'd like to see nicely done Western sets, but there are some issues. Notably:
A) Kids not interested - Lone Ranger didn't do as well as expected
B) Related - lack of good Western movies recently
C) Worries about portraying Native Americans (?)

52scoobydoo

The Wild West featured in The Lego Movie, so that could be an indicator of Lego's interest in the theme.

Kevin_Hyatt

I think it'll get a rehash in a couple of years. After the flop of Lone Ranger they'll leave it a while I reckon.
Personally I love Wild West as a theme.

Shib

plasmodium said:

C) Worries about portraying Native Americans (?)

I had a similar thought on this, but not just relating to Lego. I couldn't help but think that it might be part of the reason that aything cowboy themed seems less common than even in my childhood.

mcvitie

It's a shame the Lone Ranger theme had to be tagged to the film. I loved all of those sets especially the Stagecoach

Oldfan

Shib said:

plasmodium said:

C) Worries about portraying Native Americans (?)

I had a similar thought on this, but not just relating to Lego. I couldn't help but think that it might be part of the reason that anything cowboy themed seems less common than even in my childhood.

Notice also, that there were no sets in the old Western theme that included both Native Americans and cavalry/bandits in the same set. Any hint of the historical conflicts between the colonists and the natives would've been asking for trouble. And that was 20 years ago, we as a civilization are much more sensitive about these topics nowadays.

I'd be very surprised if there was another non-licensed Western theme (outside of Ideas-generated designs) anytime soon, if ever.

Pitfall69

cheshirecat said:

Do castle sets sell in america? I guess so, so I'm sure western sets would sell here just the same. The trouble is they're just not current. No good TV nor films in the last god knows how many years.

I get the analogy, but America is fascinated with medieval history. There are a lot of areas in the US that have Renaissance Festivals. We even have a dinner and tournament venue called Medieval Times in several places throughout the country. Medieval games sell well and it seems that any movie with swordplay and battles do very well. Not so much with westerns. Although, at one time, Westerns did very well and I was young enough to play Cowboys and Indians.

Aanchir

Oldfan said:

Shib said:

plasmodium said:

C) Worries about portraying Native Americans (?)

I had a similar thought on this, but not just relating to Lego. I couldn't help but think that it might be part of the reason that anything cowboy themed seems less common than even in my childhood.

Notice also, that there were no sets in the old Western theme that included both Native Americans and cavalry/bandits in the same set. Any hint of the historical conflicts between the colonists and the natives would've been asking for trouble. And that was 20 years ago, we as a civilization are much more sensitive about these topics nowadays.

I'd be very surprised if there was another non-licensed Western theme (outside of Ideas-generated designs) anytime soon, if ever.

Yeah, a Western theme today would have to be treated delicately on account of Westward Expansion not being the proudest part of this nation's history.

Besides that, there's also the question of how Native Americans should even be represented in sets so as not to be offensive. In the original Western sets, the Indians were a conglomerate of many completely unrelated Native American cultures. They had tepees like the Indians of the Great Plains, lived among dry cliffs and desert areas like the Puebloan peoples of the American Southwest, and had totem poles like the native people of the Pacific Northwest. Mashing together disparate cultures like this is recognized as a bit insensitive today, especially considering these are cultures that have historically dealt with more than their fair share of discrimination and misrepresentation.

Also, westerns just aren't as prominent in popular culture as they used to be, especially not popular culture aimed at an all-ages audience. Many of the westerns that ARE still produced are rather gritty and aimed at more mature audiences than, say, the old Lone Ranger radio show and TV show. Disney's movie The Lone Ranger, if it had been successful, might have stood a chance of revitalizing this genre the way the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise did to some extent for pirate movies. But it WASN'T successful, so now we might have to wait even longer before that genre becomes especially popular with kids again.

madforLEGO

Pitfall69 said:

cheshirecat said:

Do castle sets sell in america? I guess so, so I'm sure western sets would sell here just the same. The trouble is they're just not current. No good TV nor films in the last god knows how many years.

I get the analogy, but America is fascinated with medieval history. There are a lot of areas in the US that have Renaissance Festivals. We even have a dinner and tournament venue called Medieval Times in several places throughout the country. Medieval games sell well and it seems that any movie with swordplay and battles do very well. Not so much with westerns. Although, at one time, Westerns did very well and I was young enough to play Cowboys and Indians.

Much of what people know of 'Medieval times' has been romanticized heavily with fantasy movies and TV shows (well not Games of Thrones but still). I'm sure if people really know how kids and women were treated, how much squalor people lived in, Plague, What a sword and arrow wound really does to a human body, and generally what type of world it was back then overall ( a life expectancy of what, 35 years?) I doubt people would want to be glorifying that to kids.

The Wild West should probably not be glorified and romanticized either, as it was a time where we acted the worst. Prostitution, Heavy drinking, opium dens, gambling, shooting people over nothing, killing law enforcement, robbing anything and anyone you could, moving the 'savages' off 'our' land etc, etc. Sadly people love to see people being bad. Wild West, Gangsters, Mafia, Neo-Mafia (ie Sopranos) and now Breaking bad. Kind of a shame really. At least most Wild West kids shows was the good guy overcoming odds to win the day, but in this age of Grand Theft Auto, one has to wonder if you can really get kids to buy into it.

I guess if LEGO would invest in making a western serial like Lone Ranger or Cisco Kid, maybe you can develop a following, like Ninjago or Chima.

plasmodium

Just had a thought - why couldn't Lego take the opportunity to educate people, make Western sets that don't perpetuate untrue stereotypes...how hard can it be to make sets which portray Native Americans relatively accurately?

Shib

^while that's a lovely sentiment and if TLG tried it I'd buy some out of support, the problem is the masses like what they know, even if it's incorrect. That's why overcoming stereotypes generally takes generations.

VaderX

I bought most of the TLR at 30% off or more discount sets for parts. Good sets for MOCs

Pitfall69

If I remember correctly, the main antagonists in Western Theme were the Bandits. I don't think the Indians engaged the Cowboys.

Legonizer

I understand lego's incentive to not try and represent native american trides, but here's an idea: when Lego makes castle sets, it's never the Franks and the Saxons or whatnot, It's just the red guys and the blue guys. why couldn't they do something similar for a western theme? I mean, don't try to replicate a particular tribe, but a generic tribe from a particular region (for example, a set that includes teepees but no totem poles). I do undersdtand though that this plan isn't airtight: the old west is more recent history than the medieval era, and the cultures of the old west are still around, unlike medieval times.

Regardless, I think that western simply has no appeal to a modern audience. Western movies/tv shows bore me to tears (except for the comedies, like "A Million Ways to Die in the West", though admittedly that was far from a perfect movie), and I think many children (who we must keep in mind are LEGO's target audience) would agree with me. Either that or I have no artistic taste in my visual media, which admittedly is a possibility.

gmonkey76

While I love a good western movie with Clint Eastwood or John Wayne, and Hell on Wheels is a great TV show I don't see Lego doing a western theme anytime soon. Not to start a debate on good and evil but there is really not a good way for Lego to do it besides what they already did. Can't have the Civil War because of slavery. Can't do cowboy vs. anybody but bandits. Can't do Indians or Mexicans because some group will complain about how they are/were taken advantage of. While I hope I'm wrong as Western and pirate Lego are my two favorite themes I think it's done as its own theme. We might get sets like Toy Story and TLM that we can use for pieces/modify, but not on there own.

augen

This thread feels like a bad case of uber-analysis. TLG could easily create an inoffensive Wild West theme, but I suspect that they won't as they will not see it as a major seller. All of history is full of let's say less desirable aspects and we have themes for a lot of these. The only way we'll see a new WW theme is if there's a resurgence in TV-related shows that are globally popular with children. I recently realised that children are only interested in what they see on TV, so right now, it's all about Superheroes and to a lesser degree, Ninjago.

Solarious

Pitfall69 said:

If I remember correctly, the main antagonists in Western Theme were the Bandits. I don't think the Indians engaged the Cowboys.

Very very untrue when it comes to the old films and such that most people would associate with this particular genre

Still, I happen to want good Western sets so that I can do some Firefly-like western/space or maybe some American steampunk MOCs

sklamb

I would love some more Western sets, but until there's something to spark a renewed interest in the period/place I don't expect there will be any. At least I came out of my dark ages in time to pick up some of the LR sets, which certainly recycled some of the classic sets of the period. Sadly, the fact that the movie was a flop won't help us get more any time soon.

Pitfall69

Solarious said:

Pitfall69 said:

If I remember correctly, the main antagonists in Western Theme were the Bandits. I don't think the Indians engaged the Cowboys.

Very very untrue when it comes to the old films and such that most people would associate with this particular genre

Still, I happen to want good Western sets so that I can do some Firefly-like western/space or maybe some American steampunk MOCs

I wasn't talking about old films and TV shows. I was talking about the Lego Western Theme. As I mentioned a long time ago, I am part Native American and I don't feel the Lego sets were offensive at all. Lego could make great Native American sets that focus more on tribal life than conflict.

Free_Legos_Welcome

I was hoping for at least one comment on my politically charged avatar but o well, thanks for the great responses.

madforLEGO

Free_Legos_Welcome said:

I was hoping for at least one comment on my politically charged avatar but o well, thanks for the great responses.

I think many ignored it (and should). There is no need for political baiting to be in a toy forum, but that is just my opinion.

Anyway,
While the Western thread touches on political implications, @Pitfall69‌ does point out that the LEGO theme was more about bandits, which is fine. But the parents and those others may see that theme and could be thinking about the past attached to it.
I think TLR points out the demand to LEGO, which is not a lot. Now, that is biased by the movie not doing well and such, but I think the sets themselves are pretty nice (though were a bit overpriced IMO). However, I just do not see LEGO doing the theme any time soon, not with Pirates back. And Pirates may or may not do well.

Dedgecko

The fact that TLG included a western theme in TLM is testament to the strength of the theme. Perhaps they'll use the same Zone name from the movie. It would work, and be awesome.

natro220

Dedgecko said:

The fact that TLG included a western theme in TLM is testament to the strength of the theme. Perhaps they'll use the same Zone name from the movie. It would work, and be awesome.

I don't think so necessarily...they just used a theme that Lego had used once, because it was easily written into the plot. Pretty much every Western themed movie has been a failure in the past several decades (there were a few notable exceptions of course, like True Grit). As stated above, kids in general don't have much interest in the subject. I highly doubt there will be a resurgance in the theme because it appeared in the Lego Movie.

Solarious

I heard there was a Deadlands show coming for Xbox (I think). Maybe then. But I really really don't see that ever becoming an official theme.
Again, too bad.

tamamahm

Using the theme does not mean strength of the theme, but may simply be a nod to the lego history of the theme.

augen said:

I recently realised that children are only interested in what they see on TV, so right now, it's all about Superheroes and to a lesser degree, Ninjago.

That is not quite true. City is one of Lego's huge lines and that has nothing to do with TV. Friends? That became huge, and sure there were the little serials, but that is not what made it huge. Polly Pockets, Monster High.... Those all were huge toys and it was not because there was a weekly TV show on for it. That is not to say licenses are not huge, but that items still can be important without a license. I do agree, though, lack of any sort of screen exposure for Western is a big issue. At the same time it is a chicken/egg issue. If kids have no interest, then why pursue it.

We just are not in an era where Westerns or even American history is a thing for kids. I think American Girl struggles with this to a degree as well with the historical doll line. They just revamped that line in an attempt to create interest. Little House on the Prarie used to be a big deal in the 70s. Today it is not. Everyone I knew read those books as well. These days, historical items are not in trend, whether that is Western, Little House or dolls exploring American history.

Where the current interest in History is at?
Greek mythology, thanks to Percy Jackson and any number of books that explore it because of Percy Jckson.
Future history, thanks to the many dystopian books out there. (Yes, I realize there is no such thing as future history. ;-) )
Egyptian historical items still have some interest to kids.
Norse mythology I suspect will be growing in interest with the interest of Thor, and because Riordan will be making a new line of books exploring that starting next fall.

Recent American history, such as Western era.... Nada. If Lego really wanted to explore history, those are the areas that would have higher interest with today's generation of kids.

Pitfall69

I wouldn't say that all Western movies that have come out over the past several decades have been failures. Also, the have been a couple of TV shows that have been really popular. "Deadwood" and "Hell on Wheels". The video game "Red Dead Redemption" was extremely popular and even made an appearance on "The Big Bang Theory".

madforLEGO

Pitfall69 said:

I wouldn't say that all Western movies that have come out over the past several decades have been failures. Also, the have been a couple of TV shows that have been really popular. "Deadwood" and "Hell on Wheels". The video game "Red Dead Redemption" was extremely popular and even made an appearance on "The Big Bang Theory".

Yeah, but I doubt you will see them as LEGO lines, or as kid shows.

Again LEGO would need to make their own line or use something like TLR or Cisco Kid as a basis for a western line, basically build it from scratch and build a whole back story to it, then it could work I think.
Give it the Ninjago treatment and make a weekly animated show.

Pitfall69

^Ha. Again, I must not be making myself clear. I wasn't saying that Lego should make any of these shows into a theme; I was merely pointing out that Westerns and Western themed shows/video games in general are not complete failures.

TheLoneTensor

natro220 said:

Pretty much every Western themed movie has been a failure in the past several decades (there were a few notable exceptions of course, like True Grit).

Western movies are only a small portion of all movies made, I think you're being very unfair in your generalization. There are a LOT of movies made each year, only a very, very small portion of which are even remotely good. I think the ratio is probably very similar.

Pitfall69 said:

I wouldn't say that all Western movies that have come out over the past several decades have been failures. Also, the have been a couple of TV shows that have been really popular. "Deadwood" and "Hell on Wheels". The video game "Red Dead Redemption" was extremely popular and even made an appearance on "The Big Bang Theory".

Exactly, but unfortunately for future Lego sets, being a "good western" these days equates to being a real western, which reflects the rough world that a western truly is. Red Dead Redemption (easily in my top 5 games ever), is a pretty grim view of the world, one that Lego would likely not side with. Of course, I write this realizing that Lego went with a western movie that had the bad guy eating a human heart freshly cut out of the then-protagonist (and a Disney movie to boot!).

In defense of TLR, I thought it was a good movie that got way too caught up in campy goofiness. I would love to see Lego get a deal where they could showcase the original Lone Ranger. That's a pretty wholesome and entertaining property that still lives on, regardless of the bad taste left in people's mouths from the movie.

Dedgecko

Lets also not forget Woody, Bullseye, Jessie, and Stinky Pete (the Prospector), from the Toy Story tales.

If TLG put as much effort into Pirates 2015 (which honestly looks half-assed), a western theme will do just fine.

tamamahm

^ They definitely put far more effort into TLR, though, and it did not turn out fine.

I guess the question to me is do kids put so much stake into whether something is considered a flop or not that they will avoid buying sets that are good interesting sets to them? Are they even aware if a movie is a flop? We can state that because TLR was not a run away hit, that it did not create the demand for the line. I am not sure, though, that a flop causes the opposite effect where kids would stay clear of it. Over here at least, we saw that TLR just ended up acting as a non-licensed line. My son definitely had interest in one TLR set, but had no interest in the rest of the line. It had nothing to do with it being a hit or flop, but everything to do with interest in sets. ETA: Basically the western theme itself was the main flop over here, but On the flip I can say that TLR mine and later on the train caused far more interest than the unlicensed city line.

Huw

@Free_Legos_Welcome someone has complained about it and if you become more prolific in your posting we will ask you to change it.

madforLEGO

Pitfall69 said:

^Ha. Again, I must not be making myself clear. I wasn't saying that Lego should make any of these shows into a theme; I was merely pointing out that Westerns and Western themed shows/video games in general are not complete failures.

I get that, but then the presumption is there that you are making note there is a standard to reach in order for it to be 'successful', and LEGO is likely not going there.
Sorry, if I misinterpreted.

The other stigma though to overcome would be the use of guns in general in the theme. Some parents may presume that the guns are a mainstay in wild west themes and therefore will not want their kids to play with them.

Kevin_Hyatt

If TLR wasn't licensed the price would be lower and, in my opinion, it would have sold better. There were some lovely sets but at full price they just werent tempting.

I'd buy some generic Wild West theme sets at a reasonable price.

tamamahm

Keep in mind, though, these things were on sale again and again and again, so one really could find them at very reasonable and not jacked up prices. They still were not moving.

Even now, silver mine shootout, which has been retired at Lego, can still be had for under retail price. That really was an amazing set also, and yet it did not move.

sklamb

I thought the stagecoach set was a very good value, given it had two different horses (and a total of three), a good assortment of minifigures including IMO the best one from the entire line, an attractive build with both play and display potential, and a modest price. Similarly, the Constitution train set, though not equipped with PF, was competitively priced to other train sets, and had plenty to recommend it. If the movie had been successful I believe the line would have been too.

Given how poorly the movie did, however, it doesn't surprise me that very few people seriously considered buying the sets for their children. I'm sure the children had plenty of other things to be asking for....

Aanchir

Dedgecko said:

If TLG put as much effort into Pirates 2015 (which honestly looks half-assed), a western theme will do just fine.

I'm still having a hard time grasping how people think the new Pirates theme's intricate brick-built detail doesn't require effort, but I suppose this is not the topic for that.

There's no doubt that LEGO could make a better Western theme today than they did in the 90s because the 90s was a dark time for LEGO design in general, and despite its unique subject matter, Western was not immune to that design philosophy. But no matter how high-quality the designs are, I don't think Western is a particularly promising genre for kids right now.

Bear in mind that themes like Ninjago and Legends of Chima didn't break new ground or buck established trends as far as genre was concerned. Development for Ninjago started specifically because the LEGO Group noticed that ninja-related toys and media were on the rise. Likewise, Legends of Chima was probably influenced by other trendy series with anthropomorphized animal characters like Thundercats and Kung Fu Panda.

Chubbles

I picked up the TLR stuff for myself, didn't think my son would be into it much

TheLoneTensor

Btw, I forgot to answer the main question. Yes.

Peter1975

It's about time for a new line of Western sets, and let it be unlicensed so it's affordable.
There are plenty of nice idea's on the MOC pages and other website's so TLC, come on. Build us something nice!!

empire

If they design the sets well enough, I think it would be a great idea. I was never into playing cowboys and indians as a kid, but I loved the original series, wanted a Fort Legorado but never ended up getting one.

Would really need to be a reboot of the original series or unlicensed though, way too many TV/movie series already.

RevBlues

Pitfall69 said:

There are a lot of areas in the US that have Renaissance Festivals. We even have a dinner and tournament venue called Medieval Times in several places throughout the country. Medieval games sell well and it seems that any movie with swordplay and battles do very well. Not so much with westerns. Although, at one time, Westerns did very well and I was young enough to play Cowboys and Indians.

That's because while America's history is America's history, European history is the significant part of America's history too. Many in the US (I'm not saying you) forget that very simple fact. And a schooling system which teaches that the War of Independence was an anti-colonial war (rather than the first American Civil War, as it really was) doesn't help.

Paul Revere never said "the British are coming". Why would he say that when he was a British subject himself, as much as any Red Coat (whether he liked it or not)? He really said "the Regulars are out". And as a certain famous French commentator on American history, culture and politics once said, "the American is the Englishman left to himself". ;o)

/politics

1974

Aanchir said:

I'm still having a hard time grasping how people think the new Pirates theme's intricate brick-built detail doesn't require effort, but I suppose this is not the topic for that.

With so few bricks and those dumbed down instructions of today, it takes very little effort. One man's 'intricate brick-build detail' is another man's "give me those cool 4444x panels any day"

Those new sets suck so much, I feel like assembling all my classsic pirate sets, put them up next to the 2015 offerings and pick 20 random kids from the street (aged 4-16) and let them pick out what's hot and what's not :smiley:

And then send the video to TLG

No need to thank me for saving you millions on focusgroups, TLG

(Allthough a few select picks from the Vault would be apriciated)

monkyby87

1974 said:

Aanchir said:

I'm still having a hard time grasping how people think the new Pirates theme's intricate brick-built detail doesn't require effort, but I suppose this is not the topic for that.

With so few bricks and those dumbed down instructions of today, it takes very little effort. One man's 'intricate brick-build detail' is another man's "give me those cool 4444x panels any day"

Those new sets suck so much, I feel like assembling all my classsic pirate sets, put them up next to the 2015 offerings and pick 20 random kids from the street (aged 4-16) and let them pick out what's hot and what's not :smiley:

And then send the video to TLG

No need to thank me for saving you millions on focusgroups, TLG

(Allthough a few select picks from the Vault would be apriciated)

While I don't necessarily agree with you, there is a vast difference between the classic pirate sets and the new ones. It's true, they just don't make them like that used to. It was at times a challenge to figure out what pieces were added in each step. But anyways, back to the topic...

I loved the western sets, but I doubt Lego will return for a while considering TLR as their latest effort. And as another poster said, it's a shame, because the sets were actually really great. That train and mine would go fantastic in any western themed town.

monkyby87

RevBlues said:

Pitfall69 said:

There are a lot of areas in the US that have Renaissance Festivals. We even have a dinner and tournament venue called Medieval Times in several places throughout the country. Medieval games sell well and it seems that any movie with swordplay and battles do very well. Not so much with westerns. Although, at one time, Westerns did very well and I was young enough to play Cowboys and Indians.

That's because while America's history is America's history, European history is the significant part of America's history too. Many in the US (I'm not saying you) forget that very simple fact. And a schooling system which teaches that the War of Independence was an anti-colonial war (rather than the first American Civil War, as it really was) doesn't help.

Paul Revere never said "the British are coming". Why would he say that when he was a British subject himself, as much as any Red Coat (whether he liked it or not)? He really said "the Regulars are out". And as a certain famous French commentator on American history, culture and politics once said, "the American is the Englishman left to himself". ;o)

/politics

Pretty much all of this is debatable to a high degree, but this isn't the place for that.

RevBlues

monkyby87 said:

Pretty much all of this is debatable to a high degree, but this isn't the place for that.

Everything is debatable, but you can't deny that much of it is either fact or supported by evidence. It is no surprise that a country dominated by people who are descended from Europeans find that they are interested in European culture and history as well as American history, whereas American history is a little less important to non-Americans (apart from Hollywood films of course, though we're using the term "history" a little loosely in that context).

It is an incontrovertible fact that Revere was British until 1776, and no historian qualified to speak on the subject will tell you he said "the British are coming" because there isn't a shred of evidence to support claims he did say it and plenty of contemporary eyewitness accounts that state he said "the Regulars". It's pure romantic fiction.

As for the final points in each of those paragraphs, Daniel Hannan's latest book explains why it was a civil war by any sensible definition of the term (British subjects fighting the British state on British soil), and de Tocqueville was bang on the money in his observations - as he usually was. Not that Hannan is the first; many American historians and commentators have written on the same themes. Indeed, most of the Founding Fathers and authors of the important texts of the new republic were more British than King George, and the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution took almost all of their cues from Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights, English common law (as opposed to the civil law favoured in continental Europe and elsewhere) and English philosophers such as Thomas Paine.