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[Petition] Save LEGO the Lord of the Rings

SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,705
SIGN THE PETITION HERE : http://www.change.org/p/save-lego-the-lord-of-the-rings

This was posted on eurobricks by Trunkbass and I said I would post it here too for all of you to have a look

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Dear Brickset members and LEGO the Lord of the Rings enthousiasts,

as we know, the future for LEGO LotR looks very dim with currently no advertisement for a next wave in the instructions of the last Hobbit wave, and no mention of LotR sets in the retailer catalog. It is almost sure that LEGO The Lord of the Rings is over.

To most of us the line feels incomplete with the lack of several important characters (like the Witch-King, Eowyn, Sauron and Faramir), factions (especially Gondor), buildings (mainly Minas Tirith) and creatures (like the Balrog, Treebeard and mountain trolls).

Many of us feel that this theme needs just one wave to 'complete' the LEGO Lord of the Rings. Even only one set, which is preferably set in Gondor, could solve most of our problems. For example, you can make a Battle of the Pelennor Fields as big as you want (depicting several stages of the battle and the preceding events) with the Witch-King on fell beast, Éowyn, wounded Faramir, Gondor soldiers, a mountain troll, a piece of Minas Tirith, etc.

To raise awareness I would like to start a petition to let LEGO know that we care. I know some of you think this will not matter, but maybe it will. If we get enough support maybe we can at least get an official statement from TLG that LEGO LotR is over and why.

I am working on the format right now, but to make this a strong statement I could use your help.


Quote

LEGO the Lord of the Rings is a licensed theme of the popular toy company. It appealed to both LEGO and the Lord of the Rings fans over the past two years. Unfortunately it looks like there will be no more LEGO LotR construction sets, while there is still so much left to explore. Please help us raise awareness to save LEGO LotR.

The golden deal
Back in 2011 the LEGO Group (TLG) announced the multi-year agreement with Warner Bros. Consumer Products to turn the characters and locations of the Lord of the Rings into the plastic toy we all know and love. Finally this popular franchise would be made into LEGO construction sets. This was, according to LEGO.com:


“not only because we know they will foster collectability and creative play, but also because these are two properties that our fans have been asking us to create for years"
These fans have been getting fantastic LEGO LotR sets from the summer of 2012 until June 2013, depicting scenes from all three movies: The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King. Aside from being popular among children, the introduction of this theme has also drawn many AFOL’s (Adult Fan Of LEGO) back to their favorite childhood toy, commonly referred to as: ‘returning from their Dark Ages".

An incomplete theme…
But now the future of LEGO LotR looks rather dark itself. With no new sets for over a year and the LEGO Hobbit theme ending in October 2014, closely followed by the last Hobbit movie (The Battle of the Five Armies) this December, chances for LEGO LotR sets are close to non-existent.
To many of us the LEGO LotR theme feels incomplete. This is due to the lack of several major characters, creatures, buildings and locations. Some of the most striking oversights are LEGO versions of the complete Gondor faction, the city of Minas Tirith, the Balrog of Moria, the Witch-King with his iconic helmet and several important characters like Éowyn and Faramir. Even Sauron, the main villain of the story, doesn’t have his own depiction in LEGO form.

One last wave?
Many fans would love this theme to continue forever, but a lot of us feel that most of the gaps could be filled with just one last wave. Only one last batch of sets could deal with the most important characters, settings and stories that are now left out.

In this manner TLG could complete this theme in a proper way to honour the Lord of the Rings franchise and satisfy fans of both LEGO and the Lord of the Rings.
If you love LEGO and if you like the Lord of the Rings, please take your time to sign this petition. It only takes a minute. Let the world now what LEGO LotR meant for you and why you want it to continue. Which crucial sets are still missing? Let your voices be heard!


Thank you very much for your help.
legomattNellyklatu003TrunkbassrwsalesDiggydoesJonn420AdzbadboyweevindannyrwwrancorbaitInfinitymanmdellemanBluefox1966MasterBeefysnowhitie
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Comments

  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    have fun, this kind of thing is a complete waste of time however.
    madforLEGOPaperballpark
  • DiggydoesDiggydoes Cologne/GermanyMember Posts: 1,076
    dougts said:

    have fun, this kind of thing is a complete waste of time however.

    Maybe true, but why not even try? Maybe TLG will consider a "Ideas"style one-off set with Faramir;Eowyn…?!
  • mr_bennmr_benn United KingdomMember Posts: 834
    LOTR and Hobbit sets... great if you like grey and brown bricks!

    Yes there are some great sets in there (Unexpected Gathering, delicious!), but to be honest though I've never seen a line so heavily discounted by multiple retailers as LOTR, I'd love to see the shelf space make room for another, better, line.
    Pitfall69madforLEGO
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,374
    Diggydoes said:

    dougts said:

    have fun, this kind of thing is a complete waste of time however.

    Maybe true, but why not even try? Maybe TLG will consider a "Ideas"style one-off set with Faramir;Eowyn…?!
    Yes, I think an "Ideas" type set would be more likely.

    bgl_84
  • ThegoThego UKMember Posts: 259
    The problem I have with this is, as a non-collector of LOTR, discontinuing that line will mean TLG will probably produce a line from a different franchise instead.

    So whilst I understand that you are upset, there are probably as many of us who would be upset if TLG continued it at the expense of something else.
  • AdzbadboyAdzbadboy London, UKMember Posts: 2,624
    Maybe Lego stopped production because they wasn't received well with the young children; I saw many adults will the whole line but it wasn't near as close as Star Wars were every age group was purchasing sets.
  • GIR3691GIR3691 Member Posts: 658
    It had a pretty great run. Is there really anything left to do that you can't live without? Most of the sets were criticized for not living up to the massive scale of the films. We got all the core characters and and then some. Would have been nice to get Sauron minifig or a Minas Tirith set, but overall I'm not losing sleep over anything they didn't do.
  • DiggydoesDiggydoes Cologne/GermanyMember Posts: 1,076
    GIR3691 said:

    It had a pretty great run. Is there really anything left to do that you can't live without? Most of the sets were criticized for not living up to the massive scale of the films. We got all the core characters and and then some. Would have been nice to get Sauron minifig or a Minas Tirith set, but overall I'm not losing sleep over anything they didn't do.

    Well this has been discussed very often i think,but the lack of Gondor soldiers/Faramir,Eowyn and the Witch King is something that could've been solved. Maybe it would be possible to create these with a one-off set?!
  • CHERUBboyCHERUBboy Member Posts: 98
    The sets are ugly, the minifigs uglier and we'll never get proper Classic Castle sets again until this and the Hobbit nonsense is out of the way!
    T_LarsTechnicNick
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,374
    ^Tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back ;)
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    Given the level of discount we saw with LotR and the Hobbit, it seems to me the people have already spoken and presumably LEGO have listened. I too would happily lose this line, even though i enjoyed helms deep just for the castle parts.
    Pitfall69Thego
  • adventure_aladventure_al Scotland Member Posts: 243
    It just makes sense for it to go once the films fade out of the limelight

    They aren't going to pay money to extend a license to keep a few fan boys happy

    Its time for it to go so we can hopefully get some decent castle lines coming back in again
    Pitfall69dougtsT_Lars
  • oldtodd33oldtodd33 Denver 4800 miles to BillundMember Posts: 2,416
    ^ Even though I do like the line I would like to see a new Castle line done well. The only set I feel they had a chance of doing close to scale is Minus Morgul, Minus Tirith is just too big for them to try even in UCS scale.
  • bobabricksbobabricks Vancouver, BC, CanadaMember Posts: 1,839
    3 years is actually quite a long lasting theme, if I had my way there would still be Indiana Jones sets coming out.
    GothamConstructionCo
  • ACWWGal2011ACWWGal2011 Member Posts: 534
    I hate to break it to you but lego themes don't last long anymore. Except for SW's, most themes are lucky to last more then a couple years tops. TLM is already on it's second wave with one more coming and that theme is probably reaching the end soon.

    Yes, I am aware that TLM isn't usually called a licensed set, but it is in my book. To me, a licensed theme is a theme based off movies, books, tv shows, etc.
    madforLEGObobabricksThirdBuckEye
  • juggles7juggles7 United StatesMember Posts: 452
    mr_benn said:

    LOTR and Hobbit sets... great if you like grey and brown bricks!

    Yes there are some great sets in there (Unexpected Gathering, delicious!), but to be honest though I've never seen a line so heavily discounted by multiple retailers as LOTR, I'd love to see the shelf space make room for another, better, line.

    Are you kidding? Chima is much more heavily discounted than LOTR. Likewise for Galaxy Squad.
  • goshe7goshe7 Columbus, Ohio, USAMember Posts: 515

    3 years is actually quite a long lasting theme, if I had my way there would still be Indiana Jones sets coming out.

    Yes! Change.org this one too. You have my signature!
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,217
    The argument of 'they were heavily discounted to sell them' really annoys me. It was more the Hobbit sets that needed the discount to move them than the LOTR line, and frankly the Hobbit sets were for the most part terrible - the second wave at least. I think this was the result of TLGs initial offerings being based on the idea of two films and not three. With the disaster of the second wave TLG seems to have given up on trying to save the theme and instead seem to have done the minimum to meet the licence requirements. I love the first wave of LOTR sets, and even the second wave of LOTR wasn't that bad, yes the black gate was smaller then the films, but Christ they couldn't exactly bring out two Orthanc sized sets in the theme simultaneously!
    bobabricksBumblepantsdougtsrichardh4388dannyrww
  • brickedinbrickedin London, UKMember Posts: 449
    It strikes me that it is a huge missed opportunity, as already mentioned the scope for sets is absolutely huge and the obvious omissions just leave the theme lacking. the simple fact is that TLG will do what will make money. For the most part the latter sets were pretty poor and i think this contributed to poor sales. I just feel that the theme was not given the attention it deserves and ultimately this has contributed to its downfall. There is definitely demand for the army builder type element, just look at the aftermarket price for Rohan soldiers. I hate to think how many battle pack type sets i would buy if they were made available.
    juggles7
  • ShibShib UKMember Posts: 5,217
    I think if TLG had been really smart with LOTR they would held Black Gate for third wave and in it's place put in Osgilliath Escape - with Faramir, Prisoner Frodo, a Gondor soldier an orc and a Nazgul on a Fell Beast (looking at images they probably only needed new moulds for head and wings so could use the generic dragon body mould and generic tail pieces) to set up for a third wave featuring a Pelanor Field set with Eowen vs Witch King, giving them chance to reuse the fell beast and meaning only a new head piece for the witch king.

    That and battle pack sets and I think people would have been a lot happier in general. I'm willing to accept the failings of the Hobbit theme as a reflection of the weakness of the films.
  • BELTRADBELTRAD Scotland, United KingdomMember Posts: 89
    I think this theme suffers from lack of imagination, way to many sets that are just a wall and some figs, or a few random small builds joined together like goblin king or upcoming lonely mountain.

    Looking at all the sets I do believe that the Lord of the Rings sets are better than the hobbit sets overall (Even though I do think the best set was An Unexpected Gathering from hobbit)

    So I maybe they should take a bit of time, skip this round give the sets more though and come back in 2015 with a final line up and go out with a bang and give fans the sets and figs they deserve. I don't think they could do it through Ideas as I think that Ideas has to use existing parts and some of the missing chars and sets deserve a full consideration and that might need new parts.
  • T_LarsT_Lars USAMember Posts: 104
    Aside from Star Wars, most themes only last a year or two. Thats just how it is. Enjoy it for what it is/was. Since its LEGO, you could even make some MOCs to fill in any gaps you think are missing from the theme if you are so inclined.
    ...
    ...That being said, someone ought to get a petition going to bring back Western. It only lasted two waves!

    ...Oh, and another one for Forestmen.



    ...and a new monorail.
  • icey117icey117 DenmarkMember Posts: 506
    edited August 2014
    PLEASE! Oh com'on guys...

    The only "vote" LEGO is paying attention to is the wallet-votes. If "we" had purchased the LOTR sets like mad, I'm pretty sure they'd continue the line until the last oil reservoir was drained.
  • TrunkbassTrunkbass Member Posts: 1
    edited August 2014
    dougts said:

    have fun, this kind of thing is a complete waste of time however.

    Luckily this only takes 30 seconds

    MasterBeefy
  • SimesHimselfSimesHimself Member Posts: 27
    As many have said, I don't believe there's anything next year except the scaling-down of what is currently on sale now until only the October 2014 sets are left. Once TLG make up their mind to retire something, there's little hope in fighting it. It would be good if they revisited it in the future though, as they did when Batman finished and now we have Super Heroes.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,096
    I think you guys just like to complain. The LotR theme introduced AFOL building techniques to the Castle theme. LotR was probably never a very good fit for Lego due to cost constraints. Orthanc is almost universally praised because Lego was able to do it right. But not every set can cost $200 or more. Also there are very few vehicles in LotR so you can't really compare it to Star Wars. Overall there were some lackluster sets that could have been better. Mines of Moria comes to mind. That set could have really benefited with a raised baseplate. Of course then that would have raised the price to $100 and people would still complain. But overall I think they did fine within the limitations set forth by Lego's own price structure.
    DiggydoesmadforLEGOroxioRenny
  • DiggydoesDiggydoes Cologne/GermanyMember Posts: 1,076
    I´ve had absolutely no idea that there is so much hate from the AFOL-world towards the (Lego) middle earth theme?! Sad to see..i grew up with the books and when i´ve heard back in ´11 that TLG´s obtained the license it was pretty clear i´ve had to collect everything and so i did! Well the Pirate Ship was pretty lame, but the rest of the Lotr line was awesome (to me) besides some strange Minifigure choices! Of course we all knew that there are certain things which couldn´t be realized in Lego form, and that most buildings/battles had to get scaled down but i think especially for us AFOL´s the line delivered great stuff! No BURPS or other kidified pieces, but a lot of Bricks and even some awesome new pieces like the new arches and the olive green leaves (from Elrond´s council) and lot´s of different Elves! I´m not sure if this kind of stuff would have been delivered within a "Castle" range (which are mostly targeted at Kids, besides Sets like MMV or Kingdoms Joust)!
    I understand that for AFOL´s who are not really into Tolkien(or the Lego incarnation) the petition is like beating a dead horse (and maybe it truly is) but for Tolkien/Lego fans like me this is the last straw to maybe get the minimum chance that TLG will consider producing one last set (i guess a whole wave is a little bit too much to ask for) which could give us the highly desired character/figures most fans are looking for!
    BumblepantsTheBigLegoski
  • BuzzsawBuzzsaw UKMember Posts: 79
    Yet if you look at Chima, ALL of the 'vehicles' are monsters...
    So it is not as if Lego do not have the ability to create such sets. They even have a mamoth!
  • B_HollsB_Holls Member Posts: 41
    I heard on the FBTB forum that there is a supposed next wave of LOTR this might be just a rumor but I could hope for the best
  • davee123davee123 USAMember Posts: 809
    legomatt said:

    I am glad for what little we got, but it is definitely a beautiful theme utterly wasted and misused thanks to a basic lack of ambition, and slavish lazy thinking.

    I doubt that's really true-- you're exaggerating.

    They budgeted 12 sets (not including the 3 very small exclusives). 7 in 2012 and 5 in 2013. They had to make a lot of choices regarding what molds they could make, what would appeal to kids and adults (not just LOTR fans), and provide a lot of different price points.

    So... let's try an experiment. You have 12 LOTR sets in which to convey the entirety of the films. You're limited to similar constraints in terms of the number of new molds you can create, and number of minifigs and other expensive elements used in sets. What lineup would you make?

    DaveE
    madforLEGO
  • sonsofscevasonsofsceva 1904 World's FairMember Posts: 539
    davee123 said:

    legomatt said:



    So... let's try an experiment. You have 12 LOTR sets in which to convey the entirety of the films. You're limited to similar constraints in terms of the number of new molds you can create, and number of minifigs and other expensive elements used in sets. What lineup would you make?

    DaveE

    I accept that challenge:
    1. Bilbo's Birthday
    2. Weathertop
    3. Rivendell Council
    4. Moria Tomb
    5. Bridge of Khazadum
    6. Lothlorien - Mirror of Galadriel and parting gifts
    7. Tower of Orthanc & Ents
    8. Rohan - Main hall
    9. Helm's Deep
    10. Outside Minas Tirth - Witchking, Eowyn, Theodred, Merry
    11. Shelob
    12. Black Gate

    I would say that Weathertop, Moria Tomb, Tower of Orthanc, Shelob, and Helm's Deep were done just about right in the actual series. My list does not lend well to small priced sets, other than Shelob, but a few more sets that are feeders to the big sets, like they did with Helm's Deep, would have been fine.
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,129
    I'll bite:

    FotR:
    Weathertop
    Council of Elrond
    Moria/Balrog
    Boromir/Lurtz/End of the Fellowship
    TT:
    Helm's Deep
    Frodo/Gollum/Faramir
    Orthanc/Treebeard
    RotK
    Black Gate
    Shelob
    Mt. Doom Scene
    Minas Tirith
    Eowyn/Witch King
  • davee123davee123 USAMember Posts: 809
    edited August 2014

    My list does not lend well to small priced sets, other than Shelob

    I think that's part of the problem. Once you realize the constraints, it gets REALLY difficult.

    Assuming that the 7 sets you list that match LEGO's are kept intact, let's see what you changed:

    Removed:
    Wizard's Duel
    Gandalf Arrives
    Uruk-Hai Army
    Orc Forge
    Pirate Ship Ambush

    So... if you notice, by removing Wizard's Duel, Gandalf Arrives, and the Orc Forge, you haven't done too much. I believe most of the elements and minifigs of those sets are still used in other sets. Uruk-Hai Army gives you 2 unique minifigs to replace (Eomer and Rohan Soldier). The Pirate Ship Ambush, luckily, gives you a little more, with 3 unique minifigs (King of the Dead, Soldier of the Dead, and the Pirate of Umbar).

    Notice also that you've only cut 1 mold (unless I missed some)-- the helmet for Eomer/Rohan soldier. So the new stuff you add can really only have 1 new mold.

    Added:
    Bilbo's Birthday (could this be a small set?)
    Bridge of Khazadum
    Lothlorien (is this a small set with 2 figures?)
    Rohan Hall
    Minas Tirith Field

    It seems like you'll be adding in:
    - Bilbo (old)
    - Balrog (one or many new molds!)
    - Galadriel
    - Rohan soldier or Eomer (at least one new mold)
    - Fell Beast (one or many new molds!)
    - Witch King (probably needs a new helmet mold)
    - Eowyn

    Assuming you're not adding in other things, you've done a good job on the minifig diversity, but added several new molds, which are usually the most expensive things to add.

    Also recall that one of the sets (The Orc Forge) was a Target exclusive, which means it definitely shouldn't get any new molds, and maybe not even any unique minifig elements.

    So, I think you've probably blown the budget on new molds. You might also not have hit all the right price points, hard to say.

    DaveE
  • davee123davee123 USAMember Posts: 809
    dougts said:

    I'll bite:

    Ok. You've removed:
    Wizard's Duel
    Gandalf Arrives
    Uruk-Hai Army
    Orc Forge
    Mines of Moria
    Pirate Ship Ambush

    Again, Wizard's Duel, Gandalf Arrives, and the Orc Forge, you haven't given you much. Uruk-Hai Army gives you 2 unique minifigs and 1 mold. The Pirate Ship Ambush gives you a 3 unique minifigs. And Mines of Moria gives you a small chunk of molds with the removal of the Cave Troll, and 3 minifigs (Boromir, Legolas, and Pippin).

    So, you've got 8 minifigs, 1 minifig mold, and roughly a creature mold.

    You've added:
    Boromir/Lurtz/End of the Fellowship (assuming small set)
    Mt. Doom Scene (assuming small 2-fig set)
    Frodo/Gollum/Faramir
    Moria/Balrog
    Minas Tirith
    Eowyn/Witch King

    That's adding:
    - Balrog (there's your creature mold)
    - Boromir
    - Pippin (assuming he's included with Boromir/Lurtz)
    - Faramir
    - Eowyn
    - Witch King (new head mold needed)
    - Gondor soldier from Minas Tirith? (if so, new molds, if not, what's in it?)
    - Fell Beast (adding another creature mold)
    - Legolas (you've gotta have him somewhere!)

    So, pretty good on minifigs (7 figs), but over budget with molds (one creature mold, and likely an extra new mold for a Gondor soldier). Also, you've lost any Rohan soldiers, unless you add them into the Helm's Deep, which will take you further over budget mold-wise.

    DaveE
  • binaryeyebinaryeye USMember Posts: 1,734
    Here's my attempt.

    Wave 1
    $12.99: Mirror of Galadriel (Frodo, Galadriel)
    $19.99: Treebeard Encounter (Treebeard, Merry, Orc, Pippin)
    $29.99: Attack at Weathertop (Aragorn, Frodo, Ringwraith x3)
    $39.99: Cirith Ungol (Frodo, Orc x2, Sam, Shelob)
    $59.99: The Golden Hall (Aragorn, Eowyn, Gandalf the White, Grima, Rohirrim, Theoden)
    $79.99: The Council of Elrond (Aragorn, Arwen, Bilbo, Boromir, Elrond, Frodo, Gimli)
    $129.99: Escape from Moria (Balrog, Gandalf the Gray, Frodo, Gimli, Legolas, Orc x3)

    Exclusive
    $199.99: Helm's Deep (Aragorn, Elf, Gimli, Haldir, Legolas, Rohirrim, Theoden, Uruk-Hai x5)

    Wave 2
    $12.99: The Wizards' Duel (Gandalf the Gray, Saruman)
    $29.99: The Forbidden Pool (Faramir, Frodo, Gollum, Ranger)
    $59.99: Battle of the Pelennor Fields (Eowyn, Fell Beast, Gondorian, Merry as Rohirrim, Orc, Witch-King)
    $99.99: The Gates of Minas Tirith (Denethor, Gondorian x2, Gandalf the White, Orc x2, Pippin as Gondorian, Troll)
  • davee123davee123 USAMember Posts: 809
    binaryeye said:

    Here's my attempt.

    Oh, much more detail!

    Ok, so price points: great match! Cirith Ungol becomes the Target Exclusive, which is a bit odd, since it's the only set with Sam in it (which will probably get argued, especially as he's a new unique printed head, and possibly torso). But that's a good match.

    As for minifigs, you've gone a bit over in terms of variety. By rough count, about 3 more than allowed, although that's tricky (depends on how many distinct prints you'd include with various elves, orcs, Gondorians, etc). You've got about 10 more minifigs than are included in the actual lineup (17.5% more), which you'll need to trim.

    For molds, you've traded the Cave Troll for a regular Troll, but you've added in a Fell Beast and a Balrog (over budget). You could argue that you've left out the Eagle, but since that mold's getting used for the Hobbit sets, it's not quite an even trade. You've saved one mold from the Mouth of Sauron, but you'll probably need new molds for the Gondorian soldiers, the Witch King, and maybe Galadriel. So, at least one mold, possibly 2 that you need to cut (along with at least one of the creatures, if not both).

    Also, I can imagine a few other critiques:
    - No Gollum in the initial release
    - Not enough conflict for kids' play value in the Golden Hall
    - Not sure what's going to show up construction-wise in the battle of the Pelennor Fields set to justify the cost to buyers

    DaveE
  • BillybrownBillybrown UKMember Posts: 748
    I don't particularly want Lord of the Rings back, but purely from a selfish point of view. I have a tonne of Attack on Weathertop and the aftersales market is terrible for them!
  • DiggydoesDiggydoes Cologne/GermanyMember Posts: 1,076
    davee123 said:

    My list does not lend well to small priced sets, other than Shelob



    Also recall that one of the sets (The Orc Forge) was a Target exclusive, which means it definitely shouldn't get any new molds, and maybe not even any unique minifig elements.

    So, I think you've probably blown the budget on new molds. You might also not have hit all the right price points, hard to say.

    DaveE
    Don´t know if this is true, the Barrel Escape set was also a certain store exclusive and it did contained new molds!
    Even though i don´t get what you try to prove here? TLG made some mistakes regarding the LOTR line period!
  • davee123davee123 USAMember Posts: 809
    Diggydoes said:

    Don´t know if this is true, the Barrel Escape set was also a certain store exclusive and it did contained new molds!

    Actually, in checking again, I have to take that whole point back, because even though the Orc Forge was exclusive in the USA, it apparently wasn't elsewhere! And that may be true of Barrel Escape too, although I don't see any notes about exclusivity in the database.
    Diggydoes said:

    Even though i don´t get what you try to prove here? TLG made some mistakes regarding the LOTR line period!

    I'm not saying what TLG did was perfect by any means-- quite the opposite in fact! The point I'm making is that with such a limited scope, it's really difficult or impossible to come up with something that everyone is going to be happy with. I expect that no matter what was done (within LEGO's constraints), people like @legomatt wouldn't be satisfied with the results. I think he's being too hard on LEGO.

    Hence, my wager is that if you can come up with a lineup of 12 sets, we can find fault with it. It will probably either go out of LEGO's budget, not sufficiently cover the full lineup, or have problems with appealing to LEGO's customer base.

    DaveE
  • binaryeyebinaryeye USMember Posts: 1,734
    davee123 said:

    Ok, so price points: great match! Cirith Ungol becomes the Target Exclusive, which is a bit odd, since it's the only set with Sam in it (which will probably get argued, especially as he's a new unique printed head, and possibly torso). But that's a good match.

    Cirith Ungol and Weathertop could switch price points by dropping one Ringwraith from Weathertop. I realize this would make the build relatively small, but in my opinion it really only needs to be the top, where the action happens. The lower half of the actual set is largely superfluous as far as I'm concerned.
    davee123 said:

    As for minifigs, you've gone a bit over in terms of variety. By rough count, about 3 more than allowed, although that's tricky (depends on how many distinct prints you'd include with various elves, orcs, Gondorians, etc).

    I didn't even consider this, but it definitely would add cost. At the least, Denethor could be dropped from Minas Tirith and replaced with another orc.
    davee123 said:

    You've got about 10 more minifigs than are included in the actual lineup (17.5% more), which you'll need to trim.

    The majority of these are in Helm's Deep. The actual set in this slot (Orthanc) has only five minifigures. I increased that to twelve with the idea that the set would not be as build-oriented as Orthanc. Twelve minifigures at $199.99 is roughly the same ratio as eight minifigures at $129.99 (the actual Helm's Deep).
    davee123 said:

    For molds, you've traded the Cave Troll for a regular Troll, but you've added in a Fell Beast and a Balrog (over budget).

    These would be brick-built.
    davee123 said:

    You could argue that you've left out the Eagle, but since that mold's getting used for the Hobbit sets, it's not quite an even trade. You've saved one mold from the Mouth of Sauron, but you'll probably need new molds for the Gondorian soldiers, the Witch King, and maybe Galadriel. So, at least one mold, possibly 2 that you need to cut (along with at least one of the creatures, if not both).

    Galadriel is in The Hobbit, so that has to help. The Witch-King would definitely need a new mold. The Gondorians may have to use something relatively generic.
    davee123 said:

    Also, I can imagine a few other critiques:
    - No Gollum in the initial release
    - Not enough conflict for kids' play value in the Golden Hall
    - Not sure what's going to show up construction-wise in the battle of the Pelennor Fields set to justify the cost to buyers

    Gollum could replace an orc in the Cirith Ungol set, and he should probably be there anyway.

    I agree about the conflict. I was imagining the Golden Hall set to have conflict between Eowyn and Grima and between Aragorn/Gandalf and Grima/Rohirrim, with Theoden having a two-sided face (possessed and normal). I see greater lack of conflict in the Galadriel set and Rivendell. I don't consider the former a problem because Gandalf Arrives has at least as little conflict. For Rivendell, I imagined a larger build with an alcove for the Shards of Narsil, to stage the scene between Aragorn and Boromir. But I agree there probably isn't enough conflict in a set at that price point.

    As for the Pelennor Fields, much of the build would be the Fell Beast. Otherwise, I admit there wouldn't be much to it. Probably some of those ever-present rocky outcroppings, etc., and maybe something that supports an action feature.
  • legomattlegomatt Member Posts: 2,548
    edited August 2014
    davee123 said:

    legomatt said:

    I am glad for what little we got, but it is definitely a beautiful theme utterly wasted and misused thanks to a basic lack of ambition, and slavish lazy thinking.

    I doubt that's really true-- you're exaggerating.
    They budgeted 12 sets. They had to make a lot of choices regarding what molds they could make, what would appeal to kids and adults, and provide a lot of different price points. So let's try an experiment. You have 12 LOTR sets in which to convey the entirety of the films. What lineup would you make?
    What is there to doubt? I am glad for what we got. LotR is a beautiful theme (just watch the film, plenty of architectural eye-candy to fill the senses) - which the lego designers have completely ignored in their quest for grey walls instead of elven halls - and lastly, they stuck to the pre-determined formula/price-point/set arrangement you describe, instead of evaluating the unique appeal of the theme on its own merits. Therefore, slavish thinking (sticking to existing sales structures instead of experimenting with something new and perhaps much better fitting to maximise potential).

    Lego makes lots of ranges, in lots of different formats. I'm simply saying they got this wrong. Lego are in the business to make money. If I had been on their team of strategists, I would have recommended an entirely different approach, and been willing to be sacked over it, because i believed this format was doomed from the outset... but we'll never know if my approach would've been a success or not.

    I am not merely criticizing for the sake of being negative ('people like me', indeed! how insulting.) Quite the opposite. I am of the attitude that voices expressing misgivings are the ones that drive businesses forward. Not just resting on laurels and assuming all is well, then blaming the product when it fails. Occasionally you want, need in fact, someone in the office to stand up and say 'this is not going to work, we need to reassess and develop a better fit'. Those people, more often than not, become the leaders of tomorrow, as they're the visionaries willing to take a risk and do something new, forcing innovations that take a business forward.

    So I'm not going to waste time playing the silly game of coming up with a list of 12 sets sticking rigidly to what we got just so you can poke and be negative for the sake of it. And not because i can't, either - hey, if i get a chance maybe i will post one - but because that IS exactly the lazy thinking I'm annoyed by. Sticking to a formula which doesn't fit.

    I'm not being harsh, I just see a potential much greater than they gave. The Figs have been great - but so are all lego figs these days. A couple of sets are great (Bag End is the stand out). Lego have set the bar high for many other themes, but largely given LotR a brush off.
    If they had invested a little time (when negotiating for the license) to appreciate the films and what they offered by way of new, untried, markets and structures, instead of behaving like ugly sisters forcing slippers, they might have had a substantially better product, vastly improved sales, opened new markets, and not only that, might even have stumbled upon or unlocked an improved business model for the future.

    TLG is only under the limits they set for themselves, if they want to release a new product (Power functions, friends, mixels, Apps, MMO worlds), they can do it. IF they had put a little more thought into this license, beyond just ticking existing 'A.N.Other License' boxes, we might not be having this conversation, but instead be reveling in a whole series of amazing landscape sets, or strange architectures, or whatever else you can imagine beyond lotr, perhaps beyond anything we see today.
    dougtsmdellemanbrickedinsnowhitie
  • davee123davee123 USAMember Posts: 809
    legomatt said:

    they stuck to the pre-determined formula/price-point/set arrangement you describe, instead of evaluating the unique appeal of the theme on its own merits.

    ... Really? Do you have any evidence for this? I don't honestly know what specific research they did and what groups they worked with for LOTR sets, but I know they do quite a lot with other lineups, evaluating them very thoroughly.

    Given the vast exploration and experimentation that LEGO's been through in the last nearly 20 years, I think it's pretty presumptuous to believe that LEGO wouldn't have considered other selling formats for the license.

    DaveE
  • OdinduskOdindusk Member Posts: 763
    edited August 2014
    Keep things in perspective. We (fans of LotR) were insanely lucky to ever even land these sets. I would have been thrilled with one wave and they gave us more than that. I knew going in that they would not be able to do justice to most of the cities/structures of LotR, but I think they did fairly well, given the pricepoints that they had to meet. They cannot please everyone. There are people out there that deem the line a "failure" because LEGO did not release a UCS Minas Tirith set that has 50,000 pieces and priced at $5,000.
  • emilewskiemilewski CT, USAMember Posts: 475
    I am very thankful we got what we did. I just wish we had gotten some Gondor soldiers and Faramir and Arwen. We could then MOC the rest.
    legomatt
  • legomattlegomatt Member Posts: 2,548
    edited August 2014
    @davee123 I fail to see what you're trying to prove by singling out and questioning one personal opinion, which was pretty plain to understand in the first place. But to repeat (to prevent words being put in my mouth): I think lotr could have been much better, and i put the failings down to a somewhat 'uninspired' plan (or pick any word you prefer that's less offensive to you, i'm neither psychic nor a lexicon of literary perfection).

    *he says, polishing his nails* ;oP

    ...The figs we got have been largely great, but I have not been overly impressed by many of the builds. That's it. Opinion.

    If you disagree, if you think lotr was everything you expected and wished it to be, then that's fine. Good for you. I'm overjoyed for everyone who gets what they want from any theme. I simply felt Lotr offered much more than it/TLG delivered. That's my personal opinion, and i have never said it was anything else but that. State yours and move on... who even cares?

    The difference is, I'm perfectly happy for you (and others) to hold your opinions (whatever they are) without making sideways personal remarks about your character, nor do I attempt to drag you or others into a futile, apparently personal, argument over them.
    I'd ask you to show me that same courtesy. I don't know why you are so determined not to. My opinion is not even important. It won't change anything.
    Lastly, I have not offended you, and if i had, it would be unintended and i would've apologised for doing so. But I will not appreciate my (informal and haphazardly written) posts being dissected and scrutinized any further like they're some legal document forming a case for prosecution. They are not.

    So we disagree, who bl**dy cares? Now let me buy you a drink, or i'll cut your arm off. Your choice. ;o)

    And so, to lighten the mood. You wanted some sets: Here is Part 1:

    FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

    Kicking the Hobbit: Sauron's Ring is hot property and everyone wants to put their finger in, except Gandalf who won't touch it - though he's partial to 'Tea at Bag End'.
    Contains: Bigfig Gandalf & microfig Frodo, for an awesome spectacle of size difference that will Amaze Your Friends!!!

    Council Of Elrond: It should contain some forum members discussing the fate of middle earth, but instead some self-appointed-(eared) master of everyone, with no warg in the fight, starts telling everyone where to get off. Why they listen, god knows, he doesn't even give a sh*t what happens, as he's off to build on other shores. Contains: Elrond with suitcase.

    Pass of Caradhras: The snow-capped mountain pass. Hard to Find because Greenpeace mistake it for an Arctic set, and buy up all copies to p*ss everyone off. Their ransoming of the figs on ebay, causes untold levels of turmoil for the politically inclined completionist. This is the only set with Boromir. Typical. Also contains Gimli.

    Mines of Moria: This is a big bucket of grey bricks. If your collection is short of grey bricks, there's plenty 'more-ere'. See what i did there? ;o)
    and ...Gandalf lives! So nobody quite understands what he was getting so worked up about. Contains: Gandalf (alternate confused face) and Gimli.

    LotR Batman
    : This is regular Batman in a lotr box (TLG believe it will have cross-theme appeal to batman fans)... because Batman.

    Set 6: Set 6, Always a weak point as ideas become stretched, and nobody thinks to watch the film. The designers take the chance to just plug some figure gaps, feeling uncertain about the choice and spread of characters so far. Therefore contains: Gimli.

    Next time: The Two Towels...
    mdellemanRomanticWarriordougtsBumblepantsLegoKipPitfall69EKSam
  • DeathleechDeathleech Member Posts: 8
    edited August 2014
    CHERUBboy said:

    The sets are ugly, the minifigs uglier and we'll never get proper Classic Castle sets again until this and the Hobbit nonsense is out of the way!

    What are you talking about? Lego gave us a Castle theme in 2013 while LotR was still on store shelves?
    davee123 said:

    So... let's try an experiment. You have 12 LOTR sets in which to convey the entirety of the films. You're limited to similar constraints in terms of the number of new molds you can create, and number of minifigs and other expensive elements used in sets. What lineup would you make?

    Easy. The original 7 sets we got can stay. Orthanc can also stay. Wave 2 should have been completely revamped. No Pirate Ship Ambush, make a $100 piece of Minas Tirith (the gates?) set instead. Include the two Undead Soldiers in it, the Undead King, Eowyn, the Witch King, Gothmog, Rohan Merry, Gondor Pippin, and a molded Fel Beast. Throw in Aragorn if need be. Make a $30 add on army builder set with it that includes Faramir who can double as a basic soldier, a Gondor soldier or two, and then 3-4 Mordor Orcs in armor and with the hair/ears. The molded creature could be a Mountain Troll, or if budget doesn't permit a horse or light tan warg. Make it $40 if $30 is not enough.

    That leaves two spots left. Wizard Duel can stay since people need a cheap way to get Saruman. Ditch Council of Elrond. We already are getting Elrond in an upcoming Hobbit set and got him as a promotion. Two Elrond's is plenty. We don't need Frodo or Gimli from that set either. Arwen would be missed, but she really isn't that important to the story and I would easily take Eowyn over Arwen. Leave the Black Gates set, but include an armored Mordor Orc from the army builder set and remove one orc and replace him with a Gondor Soldier. Alternately they could include Sauron instead, even though he isn't technically there in physical form. Ta-da! Wave 2 just went from sub par to friggen amazing.

    As a bonus Lego could have skipped doing the Orc Forge. Include Lurtz in Orthanc since Orthanc was already sparse on minifigures. Include one set of White Hand armor in the Uruk-hai Army set. This would make Orc Forge obsolete. In it's place Lego could have given us a Balrog or Mumakil set for $40. Balrog could have a brick built Balrog, Gandalf, and a few Moria Orcs with their cool helms and a collapsible bridge. If a Mumakil set was made instead have it include two Haradrim (one being the Chieftain), an Easterling, and a Rohan Soldier on horseback. Throw in Legolas if it needs a named character. The build could be the platform on the Mumakil's back, or the Mumakil itself if it wasn't molded (similar, but half the size of the Chima one).

    BAM! I just made Lego's LotR 10x better than what they gave us and covered 90% of the important scenes and characters fans want. Instead Lego only covered maybe 70%.

  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,096
    I agree that there should have been a Balrog set. It could have been done with 500 pcs. and have been one of the $60 sets. The Pirate Ship I think makes sense from a business stand point.
  • mathewmathew Member Posts: 2,096
    legomatt said:

    What is there to doubt? I am glad for what we got. LotR is a beautiful theme (just watch the film, plenty of architectural eye-candy to fill the senses) - which the lego designers have completely ignored in their quest for grey walls instead of elven halls - and lastly, they stuck to the pre-determined formula/price-point/set arrangement you describe, instead of evaluating the unique appeal of the theme on its own merits. Therefore, slavish thinking (sticking to existing sales structures instead of experimenting with something new and perhaps much better fitting to maximise potential).

    You had lofty expectations. Regarding, the "eye candy" that you speak of: Peter Jackson's films look kind of drab to me. They have the same flat, blown out, washed out, over CGI'd look that so many movies today suffer from.
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