Brickset ForumWhy is there so much censorship here?
PerryMakes
Member Posts: 73
Did I say censorship? I mean "moderation" ... maybe you'd rather we all sit back and be content with the environment that's been created here, but I personally find so much else here VERY welcoming and helpful that I felt compelled to voice my concern ... which may very well be quelled before others are given the opportunity to either agree or disagree ... because that's what happens here.
But I'm hoping that the opposite happens and this conversation is at least allowed to ring out and others given the opportunity to respond. Maybe there's something that I'm missing or simply misunderstand. Maybe it's a cultural thing - there is a little history between the US and the UK ... it sort of centers on this very topic. And although this is essentially an international community, I see regular signs of this site being born and bred from the UK.
One final thing - I'd like to raise one concrete example from the recent past. There was a news release that mentioned future sets that have yet to be officially announced. LEGO requested that the site remove the material posted, which Brickset respectfully complied with. Then in a move I've NEVER seen in the 19 years I've been on the internet (yes, kids... we had things like usenet and irc back in the day) EVERY SINGLE MENTION of not only the proper set names, but any word that comprised the set was stricken from existence. Most of the time without any other indication that the post was modified!!! Words cannot even begin to express how bewildered I am that Huw let's that go on. Absolutely, 100% bewildered. But it does - and perhaps that's the culture that is desired here - but for a forum comprised mostly of AFOL's (I'm pretty sure ADULT is in there somewhere) I see A LOT of censorship going on. I mean "moderation."
Sincerely,
Jason Perry
But I'm hoping that the opposite happens and this conversation is at least allowed to ring out and others given the opportunity to respond. Maybe there's something that I'm missing or simply misunderstand. Maybe it's a cultural thing - there is a little history between the US and the UK ... it sort of centers on this very topic. And although this is essentially an international community, I see regular signs of this site being born and bred from the UK.
One final thing - I'd like to raise one concrete example from the recent past. There was a news release that mentioned future sets that have yet to be officially announced. LEGO requested that the site remove the material posted, which Brickset respectfully complied with. Then in a move I've NEVER seen in the 19 years I've been on the internet (yes, kids... we had things like usenet and irc back in the day) EVERY SINGLE MENTION of not only the proper set names, but any word that comprised the set was stricken from existence. Most of the time without any other indication that the post was modified!!! Words cannot even begin to express how bewildered I am that Huw let's that go on. Absolutely, 100% bewildered. But it does - and perhaps that's the culture that is desired here - but for a forum comprised mostly of AFOL's (I'm pretty sure ADULT is in there somewhere) I see A LOT of censorship going on. I mean "moderation."
Sincerely,
Jason Perry
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Comments
I personally find this site (both forums and News articles) to be moderated like that of a childrens' website. This does not bother me one bit because I know first hand how out of control things can get. Well either way when Lego (and their lawyers) ask something it's not about respectfully obeying but rather "you'd better bloody listen!".
I'm sure some Americans are scared of censorship but it's not Communism!
I read your post above several times but am having a hard time gleaning much of value to which I can respond. All of the moderators outside of Rocao and myself are indeed from the UK. And despite your concern, I don't believe the Revolutionary War still weighs on them.
As to your concern that we censor discussions on forthcoming sets, I would direct you to several current active threads referencing Series 6 CMF, 2012 City sets, and the Black Pearl (for example).
I agree that the two recent "Redacted" topics (one on Brickset and one in the forum) got out of hand, but they were certainly amusing for a bit. :o)
And regarding the US/UK thing - I'm not saying they have anything against the ex-patriots :) I'm saying that this type of moderation of more commonplace than it is in the internet culture I'm used to. And maybe that's why I have this opinion - discussions over usenet and chat over irc simply wasn't moderated (or couldn't be is more like it). Moderation for me meant America Online - and that wasn't the real internet ;)
and
ex-patriot = expatriate...
who knew?
However, that is not to say that we kowtow to TLGs demands against our better judgement. Recently we held firm to our stance that the Brandenburg Gate set was legitimately released and consequently our coverage of it should be allowed. We have been very vocal in questioning TLGs actions during that incident and their general policies and have been in direct contact with the LEGO CEC team.
We take every moderation action seriously and nearly all of them are discussed as a committee prior to action and subsequently reviewed postmortem. I defy you to provide one example where the moderation staff censored a discussion simply because "that's what happens here" and not because it was in violation of the established code of conduct or otherwise explained.
In spite of this, you may still feel that our moderation is heavy-handed, and that's certainly your right, but your expectation that this site is governed by a bill of rights granting freedom of speech is wrong and reacting with bewilderment that it's not the case is misguided. This site is privately owned and the content is displayed at the discretion of the owner.
On the subject of modertation, in most cases it's spot on, in particular closing threads with silly questions etc - it sends a very clear message that people care about this forum and want it to be a place for useful discussion, not pointless kiddy babble.
Occasionally things can be badly handled, for example:
http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/20047#Comment_20047
I dont disagree with the closing of the thread, but if so then it should have been done much earlier, and the comment it was closed with seems unnecessarily unpleasant and misdirected.
I am happy for photos etc of unreleased sets to be removed; we are supposed to all be adults here so should be either ok to wait it out or find other methods to see them if required.
I also am happy for discussions that have no real relevance to LEGO to be removed/closed, I come on here to discuss LEGO not to discuss whether the world is fair to all race/religions/political views/etc/etc...
I understand others will have different views from mine, and that is fine, but I want to state that I really appreciate what the creators of this site have done and are doing.
There are a lot of other websites out there, there is nothing stopping people using other sites for their requirements as well as frequenting Brickset.
The impact of TLG and attempting to stay on their good side, whilst also providing a fair service to the visitors can make for a headache for moderators. You may have thought the removal of references was over the top, but to me, I take that as Brickset demonstrating that they were fully compliant with something that was a fair request. As has already been noted, they fought their battle with the early purchase of the Gate set when they thought that TLG were being unreasonable.
As this is a new community, it takes a while for everyone to find their feet. Any new community has (what seems to some people) strong moderation because people don't know where the boundaries are and what the forum owner expects when you post. Once a site has been established, the regulars know where the lines are drawn and they rarely make 'mistakes' which require moderation. So, once the forums have become established, the moderation will settle down as well. :)
All in good fun.
The first obvious comment:
Brickset.com is a private site and benefits from a positive relationship with TLG.
Whilst many people would love to know whats coming, Huw and crew are doing the right thing by respecting someone else's copyright and their requests.
Second comment: I find this to be a very friendly site. Questions are answered quickly, accurately, respectfully. I've been on a number of forums where "anything goes" and they end up ending badly.
The [redacted] was a pretty funny joke.
^^ I would have found that amusing :) (assuming that the original text was eventually returned!)
And let me just reiterate something that I may have not been clear enough about in the original post and I'm taking a beating on (perhaps unfairly):
- I think that the compliance with TLG's request to remove some material WAS appropriate.
- I think that people puting [redacted] in their own posts WAS funny.
What I'm calling to attention here is:
- the tendency for mods to replace posts with 'REMOVED' more often than I feel is necessary.
- the closing of threads more often than I feel is necessary
- and the granddaddy of them all: mods are going into other people's posts and changing specific words that they feel may refer to the content that was contained in the news release LEGO asked them to remove. But what do I know ... perhaps TLG not only asked them to not only remove the speculative news release, but also requested than any and all references to "R2-D2" be removed from all future user posts. Seems silly, but it's a silly world :)
Brickset's policy of respecting TLG's direct requests and copyright is not going to change any time soon. What Huw and others do is respectfully challenge TLG's seemingly more unreasonable requests and try to work with them to improve the flow of communication in the future between TLG and sites like Brickset.
And I'm NOT refering to any set when I state the name of a Star Wars character. That's the point. I've NEVER refered to any of those sets. I simply stated the name.
I am going to back out of this thread for now, because I don't want it going in the wrong direction and I really think there is some value in hearing other people's feedback on your original points.
@Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK - I agree the (Calendar) thread was closed abruptly and brusquely but it was done so intentionally. You are absolutely correct in that the thread should have been cut off sooner and that is indeed my misstep, one which I readily owned earlier in that same thread.
Re: PerryMakes said, " I hope that those who have yet to respond are continued to be given the opportunity."
This thread is now closed. J/K :o)
^^ That made me laugh 8D
^ Perhaps - I didn't really know to post it, with there being a lack of "Crap that noone really want to read" forum.
You stated: and then: I'm just wondering how you feel the mod's should have complied with the request without moifying peoples posts?
When this type of thing happens there is always going to be some 'grey' area, there will be people who just blatently state the set, people who hint at the set, people who try to state the set without actually saying the exact words, etc... It has to be a bit of a nightmare for the mods to try to clean up peoples posts. For example as Atkinsar has stated above you only mentioned "R2-D2" for one reason, you didnt just pick a random droid from Star Wars, should it stay? should it go? I for one am glad I dont have to moderate this forum, but am appreciative of the efforts of the people who do.
Bottom line it is a balancing act I would say, but I suppose you will never please all the people all the time, there will ALWAYS be someone who is not happy.
I will however move it as suggested.
I do, however, think your UK/America reference to culture is a bit of a stretch and only serves to cause division or provoke unnecessary tension. That said, I DO think you are correct in identifying that this forum does have it's own unique culture.
So going along those lines, I am personally very happy with the current culture of moderation, because in my opinion it supports the over-arching vision/mission/purpose of this website: to build a healthy and vibrant community of AFOL. As long as the moderation continues to foster this culture of focused conversations and relevant discussion, I don't really feel the need to complain.
I'm also a believer that when one decides to commit to a community (in this case this forum), one should be prepared to adopt the culture of the community, if one expects to be adopted BY the community too - it's a fair exchange and one that should be pretty harmonious if done right.
Finally, I noticed your opening post contains quite a number of assumptions, which seem to almost punctuate and/or clarify your questions. As I said at the beginning, I really appreciate you broaching this whole subject, but I found your assumptions confused things for me a little. I heard a saying once that when people "assume" too much it makes an "ASS out of "U" and ME".
The REDACTED stuff - I assumed a lot of that was people actually writing redacted into their posts, just for the laugh of it. It was funny. OR posting things they knew would be removed just to watch it happen. Protecting the LEGO group's rules is imperative to the site, and i think everyone knows that. Brickset is excellent for the fact that it ONLY posts official info.
UK vs US thing - Seriously??? :o/
There's nothing in it. What happens to posts, happens to posts regardless of where the poster came from and who did the modding.
Brickset maintaining positive relations with LEGO group by only posting official news - for me, this is priority number 1. Without doubt, even if it means some discussions get closed early.
Posts being REMOVED from threads with no reason given - I'd prefer to see a reason given (in the place of the post) when this happens (if it must), and a private message from the mods explaining their actions.
I recently had a completely reasonable post removed (except perhaps for a bit of sarcasm, but that's not against the rules), I hadn't broken any rules, but the swiftness of it made me feel like quitting the site, as I had been responding to an offensive series of posts from someone who had been allowed to spread vitriol across several threads.
His posts had been left to stand, while my one and only response got removed. It gave me the impression that the mods had taken sides by censoring opposing views, and gave others the impression that my post had been offensive, when in fact I had merely exercised my right to respond, which appeared to be an implicit expectation given the fact the vitriolic offender's posts had been left to stand, therefore inviting comment.
I would also suggest that it's probably a part of this discussion that's not going to end up in a very useful direction, as the implications of what you're saying are slightly inflammatory.
In other words...this thread is bringin' me down man! lol
(sorry weak attempt at humor)
The fact remains that your comment, though very well written, was a response to a sidebar conversation that had already been moved to another thread. I would have simply moved your comment over to that thread, but that thread had already gone way way off track and was thus closed by Huw. Much like Tom Hanks in The Terminal, your comment had no home. :o)
But don't fret, it didn't disappear into the ether. I pasted into a offline thread where it will live on forever.
There are two main reasons why the moderators may step in and remove/edit posts:
- To keep this a fun place to be, on topic, free of flaming, trolling, spam, childishness and so on.
- When information that we've expressly been asked not to publish by LEGO is posted. This will usually be links to confidential images but also exceptionally when LEGO has contacted me directly with a 'take down notice'. This was the case recently with the 2012 exclusives set list, which as you can imagine is particluarly sensitive information because of the fanfare they usually like to have surrounding their release.
However, I agree we could probably lighten up on that particular information given it's still at fbtb and LEGO has made no attempt to remove it from there.
Everyone's welcome to mention and discuss other 2012 releases and until I'm asked by LEGO otherwise, such posts won't be redacted. However, links to confidential images will be removed.
As has been mentioned above I am actively working with several people in LEGO to try and improve the flow of information and clarify the rules about what to and not to publish.
The only common denominator (is that the right word?) is that the staff usually don't get much credit for their time and effort. And believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
I really enjoy this site, even though I usually read more than I post. But I think that this is the right place for me to thank Huw and the rest of the staff for everything they do to make this place what it is: a friendly and very vibrant Lego community.
As for moderating the forum... perhaps there is more "control" than many of us are used to... but I look at what happened on LUGNET many years ago (the "Bley Wars") and the banning on Bricklink that has chased people away from both forums. This forum is a nice "oasis of LEGO solitude" where the discussion remains friendly and always about LEGO....
I find the posts and topics here are on point, relevant, and easily accessible/filterable. On many forums with loose to no moderation, it's an all day job to find the 1% of posts/comments that actually contain helpful and/or interesting information.
Note to admins: Another insulting personal message sent to me from @Perrymakes.
This forum and database is free to use and extremely useful, if you feel over moderated post elswhere. If you don't like the fact certain information is removed a quick browser search will surely yield and genuine threads that are useful will continue.
I too am having trouble biting my tongue. It's pathetic. I'm not one to shy away from confrontation, but to continue such a petty argument in front of the entire Brickset community.....I'd feel embarassed. Please stop and continue elsewhere if you must.