Why is there so much censorship here?

PerryMakes

Did I say censorship? I mean "moderation" ... maybe you'd rather we all sit back and be content with the environment that's been created here, but I personally find so much else here VERY welcoming and helpful that I felt compelled to voice my concern ... which may very well be quelled before others are given the opportunity to either agree or disagree ... because that's what happens here.

But I'm hoping that the opposite happens and this conversation is at least allowed to ring out and others given the opportunity to respond. Maybe there's something that I'm missing or simply misunderstand. Maybe it's a cultural thing - there is a little history between the US and the UK ... it sort of centers on this very topic. And although this is essentially an international community, I see regular signs of this site being born and bred from the UK.

One final thing - I'd like to raise one concrete example from the recent past. There was a news release that mentioned future sets that have yet to be officially announced. LEGO requested that the site remove the material posted, which Brickset respectfully complied with. Then in a move I've NEVER seen in the 19 years I've been on the internet (yes, kids... we had things like usenet and irc back in the day) EVERY SINGLE MENTION of not only the proper set names, but any word that comprised the set was stricken from existence. Most of the time without any other indication that the post was modified!!! Words cannot even begin to express how bewildered I am that Huw let's that go on. Absolutely, 100% bewildered. But it does - and perhaps that's the culture that is desired here - but for a forum comprised mostly of AFOL's (I'm pretty sure ADULT is in there somewhere) I see A LOT of censorship going on. I mean "moderation."

Sincerely,
Jason Perry

Ypres

Well there are other forums....

I personally find this site (both forums and News articles) to be moderated like that of a childrens' website. This does not bother me one bit because I know first hand how out of control things can get. Well either way when Lego (and their lawyers) ask something it's not about respectfully obeying but rather "you'd better bloody listen!".

I'm sure some Americans are scared of censorship but it's not Communism!

NicksBricks

When you start a thread like this with the following

Did I say censorship? I mean "moderation" ... maybe you'd rather we all sit back and be content with the environment that's been created here, but I personally find so much else here VERY welcoming and helpful that I felt compelled to voice my concern ... which may very well be quelled before others are given the opportunity to either agree or disagree ... because that's what happens here.

you kind of lose any credibility you might have had when arguing a point. Anyways, I feel the moderation here is great. It keeps the kids out and people on the topic of LEGO. That's why you are on this site right? We don't pay for this site, and if the moderators feel like mentioning a set that LEGO themselves said was confidential will jeopardize their site, then they have every right to moderate it.

PerryMakes

One thing I've noticed - I can lose a bit of rationality through the fog of emotion. As the emotions start to clear, the one thing I regret is my sarcasm. But I'm not really looking for credibility here, I'm more concerned with learning how others feel about my observation - and I thank both of you for yours. It's already helped me to see things that the emotions where hiding. I hope that others will offer their take as well - and I hope that Huw and the mods aren't offended. That certainly wasn't one of the intentions.

mackrel

The one thing that I am not understanding is the US / UK analogy?

Yellowcastle

Jason - Please note that even though this is an AFOL site, some "moderation" will always be required. That being said, this community mostly governs itself.

I read your post above several times but am having a hard time gleaning much of value to which I can respond. All of the moderators outside of Rocao and myself are indeed from the UK. And despite your concern, I don't believe the Revolutionary War still weighs on them.

As to your concern that we censor discussions on forthcoming sets, I would direct you to several current active threads referencing Series 6 CMF, 2012 City sets, and the Black Pearl (for example).

I agree that the two recent "Redacted" topics (one on Brickset and one in the forum) got out of hand, but they were certainly amusing for a bit. :o)

coolpix

I have no problem with the moderation on this website. I am a web developer myself, running quite a few websites, and I know how things can get out of hand, plus the only times I noticed any "censorship" was related to unreleased sets that TLG wants to keep under wraps until the right time, and it's their right, and Huw does a great job respecting their right, after all, TLG deserves it. They bring us an outstanding product, and, unlike many companies, is one that learned how to listen to their fans, so they deserve the respect paid by Huw and the other moderators.

coolpix

@Yellowcastle I was going to say the same thing: that thread about 2012 City sets that got so many "Redacted" words, was more of a joke than pure censorship, at least that's what I got from it. I bet a lot of people was posting putting [redacted] on their own posts, just to be funny. If anyone saw that as pure censorship from Huw, I feel sad for them, because they did not got the Joke.

PerryMakes

I was mostly speaking of ANY reference to "R2-D2" being changed to "xxxx" without any acknowledgement of the change being made. I've seen it on many posts. (and I'll add that I too am a web developer ;) although I much prefer work on smart clients at the moment).

And regarding the US/UK thing - I'm not saying they have anything against the ex-patriots :) I'm saying that this type of moderation of more commonplace than it is in the internet culture I'm used to. And maybe that's why I have this opinion - discussions over usenet and chat over irc simply wasn't moderated (or couldn't be is more like it). Moderation for me meant America Online - and that wasn't the real internet ;)

PerryMakes

discussions over usenet and chat over irc simply wasn't = simply weren't
and
ex-patriot = expatriate...

who knew?

rocao

Brickset maintains a policy of not posting LEGO images or information that is known to be confidential. Because TLG does not consistently deliver product information, confidentiality can not always be ascertained by us and thus becomes a judgement call. But if TLG contacts us directly to inform us of a leak and asks for removal, we generally abide. Such was the case in the example you cite of the Brickset news article. The comments took on a life of their own, but I dare say you missed the tone as many posters were playfully inserting references fully expecting their comments to be edited since Matthew announced his intention to do precisely that at the outset.

However, that is not to say that we kowtow to TLGs demands against our better judgement. Recently we held firm to our stance that the Brandenburg Gate set was legitimately released and consequently our coverage of it should be allowed. We have been very vocal in questioning TLGs actions during that incident and their general policies and have been in direct contact with the LEGO CEC team.

We take every moderation action seriously and nearly all of them are discussed as a committee prior to action and subsequently reviewed postmortem. I defy you to provide one example where the moderation staff censored a discussion simply because "that's what happens here" and not because it was in violation of the established code of conduct or otherwise explained.

In spite of this, you may still feel that our moderation is heavy-handed, and that's certainly your right, but your expectation that this site is governed by a bill of rights granting freedom of speech is wrong and reacting with bewilderment that it's not the case is misguided. This site is privately owned and the content is displayed at the discretion of the owner.

Si_UKNZ

I suspect if there's any culture of heavy-handed censorship, then it's Lego who've created, it, and yes, I agree that it's ridiculous. Good for Brickset for standing up to it because TLG are exceptionally harsh, and create an unpleasant feel around releases, rather than the excitement they should be generating. Half the time it's due to one of their balls-ups anyway.

On the subject of modertation, in most cases it's spot on, in particular closing threads with silly questions etc - it sends a very clear message that people care about this forum and want it to be a place for useful discussion, not pointless kiddy babble.

Occasionally things can be badly handled, for example:
http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/20047#Comment_20047
I dont disagree with the closing of the thread, but if so then it should have been done much earlier, and the comment it was closed with seems unnecessarily unpleasant and misdirected.

princedraven

I just want to say that from my point of view I believe this site is by far the best site for AFOL's and I believe that a level of moderation is required to A) keep a level of respect between TLG and Brickset and B) keep discussions relevant.
I am happy for photos etc of unreleased sets to be removed; we are supposed to all be adults here so should be either ok to wait it out or find other methods to see them if required.
I also am happy for discussions that have no real relevance to LEGO to be removed/closed, I come on here to discuss LEGO not to discuss whether the world is fair to all race/religions/political views/etc/etc...

I understand others will have different views from mine, and that is fine, but I want to state that I really appreciate what the creators of this site have done and are doing.

There are a lot of other websites out there, there is nothing stopping people using other sites for their requirements as well as frequenting Brickset.

StuBoy

What intrigues me are the 'REMOVED' comments. Are they removed because of coarse language? Abusive comments? Straying off-topic? All of the above?

mnbvc

I think there are two major things that are relevant here - firstly, that TLG has a presence, monitors the site and requests that certain information is removed and secondly, it's a new community.

The impact of TLG and attempting to stay on their good side, whilst also providing a fair service to the visitors can make for a headache for moderators. You may have thought the removal of references was over the top, but to me, I take that as Brickset demonstrating that they were fully compliant with something that was a fair request. As has already been noted, they fought their battle with the early purchase of the Gate set when they thought that TLG were being unreasonable.

As this is a new community, it takes a while for everyone to find their feet. Any new community has (what seems to some people) strong moderation because people don't know where the boundaries are and what the forum owner expects when you post. Once a site has been established, the regulars know where the lines are drawn and they rarely make 'mistakes' which require moderation. So, once the forums have become established, the moderation will settle down as well. :)

Robb

@Yellowcastle I was going to say the same thing: that thread about 2012 City sets that got so many "Redacted" words, was more of a joke than pure censorship, at least that's what I got from it. I bet a lot of people was posting putting [redacted] on their own posts, just to be funny. If anyone saw that as pure censorship from Huw, I feel sad for them, because they did not got the Joke.

I admit that a little part of me was hoping that a Mod in a silly mood was going to insert random [REMOVED] tags into Jason's first post.

All in good fun.

DunedinNZ

My first email address was in 1993.

The first obvious comment:
Brickset.com is a private site and benefits from a positive relationship with TLG.
Whilst many people would love to know whats coming, Huw and crew are doing the right thing by respecting someone else's copyright and their requests.

Second comment: I find this to be a very friendly site. Questions are answered quickly, accurately, respectfully. I've been on a number of forums where "anything goes" and they end up ending badly.

The [redacted] was a pretty funny joke.

PerryMakes

Some really good responses so far - I hope that those who have yet to respond are continued to be given the opportunity. It seems like most people are in favor of the heavy-handed moderation and feel it's providing a better environment than a free-for-all would.

^^ I would have found that amusing :) (assuming that the original text was eventually returned!)

And let me just reiterate something that I may have not been clear enough about in the original post and I'm taking a beating on (perhaps unfairly):

- I think that the compliance with TLG's request to remove some material WAS appropriate.

- I think that people puting [redacted] in their own posts WAS funny.

What I'm calling to attention here is:

- the tendency for mods to replace posts with 'REMOVED' more often than I feel is necessary.

- the closing of threads more often than I feel is necessary

- and the granddaddy of them all: mods are going into other people's posts and changing specific words that they feel may refer to the content that was contained in the news release LEGO asked them to remove. But what do I know ... perhaps TLG not only asked them to not only remove the speculative news release, but also requested than any and all references to "R2-D2" be removed from all future user posts. Seems silly, but it's a silly world :)

atkinsar

Some really good responses so far - I hope that those who have yet to respond are continued to be given the opportunity. It seems like most people are in favor of the heavy-handed moderation and feel it's providing a better environment than a free-for-all would.

Agreed, there's been some good responses. By suggesting that you hope those that haven't responded yet are given an opportunity to do so, it feels like you are trying to provoke the mods into taking some sort of action on this thread to try and prove your point. For the record, we are more than happy to let this kind of discussion take place, it will provide valuable feedback on how people feel the forum is being run, and there's nothing wrong with a bit of constructive feedback.

... perhaps TLG not only asked them to not only remove the speculative news release, but also requested than any and all references to "R2-D2" be removed from all future user posts. Seems silly, but it's a silly world :)

In this instance, TLG did request that the information was removed. With reference to my earlier point, by mentioning one of the sets that was being removed in previous posts, it feels like a contrived way of provoking moderator action. There really are better ways to support your argument.

Brickset's policy of respecting TLG's direct requests and copyright is not going to change any time soon. What Huw and others do is respectfully challenge TLG's seemingly more unreasonable requests and try to work with them to improve the flow of communication in the future between TLG and sites like Brickset.

PerryMakes

By suggesting that you hope those that haven't responded yet are given an opportunity to do so, it feels like you are trying to provoke the mods into taking some sort of action on this thread to try and prove your point

No - I'm trying to "provoke" the mods into allowing this thread to continue without being closed. Exactly what I'm saying. Please don't try and read into this. I say what I mean, unless I'm being sarcastic, which in this case I'm not. Or am I?

And I'm NOT refering to any set when I state the name of a Star Wars character. That's the point. I've NEVER refered to any of those sets. I simply stated the name.

atkinsar

At least now I know which mod is removing the text.

No, you don't, we have all acted to remove text in posts where we feel it is appropriate to do so during the moderation of this forum.

I am going to back out of this thread for now, because I don't want it going in the wrong direction and I really think there is some value in hearing other people's feedback on your original points.

Yellowcastle

@stuboy - please note that the REMOVED comments were mainly from just one thread (City Advent Calendar...) and that they were removed as they were off-topic and exacerbating an ongoing and off-topic argument that we had already nixed. Additionally, I was in the process of closing the thread and felt it unfair to the parties involved to leave the posts with no opportunity to address. The decision to do so was not taken lightly and was indeed discussed at length after the fact amongst the moderators.

@Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK - I agree the (Calendar) thread was closed abruptly and brusquely but it was done so intentionally. You are absolutely correct in that the thread should have been cut off sooner and that is indeed my misstep, one which I readily owned earlier in that same thread.

Re: PerryMakes said, " I hope that those who have yet to respond are continued to be given the opportunity."

This thread is now closed. J/K :o)

sidersdd

Shouldn't this thread be in 'The Forum' and not 'Everything else LEGO'?

PerryMakes

^^^ I'll follow atkinsar's lead and back away, but I just wanted to say that the text you're quoting here was removed before I saw you quote it. After posting the comment and reading it back I felt that it added nothing to the thread and could only further damage my already minuscule credability ;) Either that, or one of the mods removed it without my knowledge!

^^ That made me laugh 8D

^ Perhaps - I didn't really know to post it, with there being a lack of "Crap that noone really want to read" forum.

princedraven

Perry,
You stated:

- I think that the compliance with TLG's request to remove some material WAS appropriate.

and then:

- and the granddaddy of them all: mods are going into other people's posts and changing specific words that they feel may refer to the content that was contained in the news release LEGO asked them to remove.

I'm just wondering how you feel the mod's should have complied with the request without moifying peoples posts?

When this type of thing happens there is always going to be some 'grey' area, there will be people who just blatently state the set, people who hint at the set, people who try to state the set without actually saying the exact words, etc... It has to be a bit of a nightmare for the mods to try to clean up peoples posts. For example as Atkinsar has stated above you only mentioned "R2-D2" for one reason, you didnt just pick a random droid from Star Wars, should it stay? should it go? I for one am glad I dont have to moderate this forum, but am appreciative of the efforts of the people who do.

Bottom line it is a balancing act I would say, but I suppose you will never please all the people all the time, there will ALWAYS be someone who is not happy.

drdavewatford

^^ On the contrary - this thread is generating some useful feedback and discussion!

I will however move it as suggested.

SparkyHam

Hi Perry, thanks for initiating a thread that gives others (like myself) an opportunity to post our thoughts and feelings on such a sensitive & important issue.

I do, however, think your UK/America reference to culture is a bit of a stretch and only serves to cause division or provoke unnecessary tension. That said, I DO think you are correct in identifying that this forum does have it's own unique culture.

So going along those lines, I am personally very happy with the current culture of moderation, because in my opinion it supports the over-arching vision/mission/purpose of this website: to build a healthy and vibrant community of AFOL. As long as the moderation continues to foster this culture of focused conversations and relevant discussion, I don't really feel the need to complain.

I'm also a believer that when one decides to commit to a community (in this case this forum), one should be prepared to adopt the culture of the community, if one expects to be adopted BY the community too - it's a fair exchange and one that should be pretty harmonious if done right.

Finally, I noticed your opening post contains quite a number of assumptions, which seem to almost punctuate and/or clarify your questions. As I said at the beginning, I really appreciate you broaching this whole subject, but I found your assumptions confused things for me a little. I heard a saying once that when people "assume" too much it makes an "ASS out of "U" and ME".

richo

I am a member of this forum, and another major Lego site that is built around a forum, and for me, the reason I post quite a bit here, but very rarely on the other site, is that this site feels more of a community. Therefore something must be right! Hope this helps.

Jabba_the_Taff

I remember reading Huw's piece about how he was hoping things would go in this forum and signed up in part because I felt there would be a high level of moderation. I felt that this meant there wasn't going to be the reams of "Wow, what a set. Definitely got to get this!" posts that can occur on the news articles on the brickset frontpage. (My normal response: 'Oh, is that so? Well, thanks for that. Really useful information, it's really added to the sum total of my understanding of the set. Thanks for wasting my time.') And that has come to pass. In fact it's even better than I expected. There appears to be a high level of considered opinion on news/new sets threads in the forum (admittedly I don't read all threads.) The moderation has always appeared to be due to one of two things, responding to a request from TLC or topics digressing too far from Lego. This really doesn't seem like a freedom of speech issue (bearing in mind the intentions of the forum.) One question: Is the annoyance at the redaction of new sets information partly anger at TLC policy?

legomatt

Ok here's my twopence worth:

The REDACTED stuff - I assumed a lot of that was people actually writing redacted into their posts, just for the laugh of it. It was funny. OR posting things they knew would be removed just to watch it happen. Protecting the LEGO group's rules is imperative to the site, and i think everyone knows that. Brickset is excellent for the fact that it ONLY posts official info.

UK vs US thing - Seriously??? :o/
There's nothing in it. What happens to posts, happens to posts regardless of where the poster came from and who did the modding.

Brickset maintaining positive relations with LEGO group by only posting official news - for me, this is priority number 1. Without doubt, even if it means some discussions get closed early.

Posts being REMOVED from threads with no reason given - I'd prefer to see a reason given (in the place of the post) when this happens (if it must), and a private message from the mods explaining their actions.

I recently had a completely reasonable post removed (except perhaps for a bit of sarcasm, but that's not against the rules), I hadn't broken any rules, but the swiftness of it made me feel like quitting the site, as I had been responding to an offensive series of posts from someone who had been allowed to spread vitriol across several threads.

His posts had been left to stand, while my one and only response got removed. It gave me the impression that the mods had taken sides by censoring opposing views, and gave others the impression that my post had been offensive, when in fact I had merely exercised my right to respond, which appeared to be an implicit expectation given the fact the vitriolic offender's posts had been left to stand, therefore inviting comment.

PerryMakes

Seriously is right. I'll say it a third time... there is no UK vs US thing. I asked if my belief that there is excessive moderation may be a cultural thing. Get it? I'm asking if the freedom to expressive yourself - and belief that it's an unalienable right in this country (the US) - is getting in the way of my views of the moderation here. And to say that the culture that one comes from has no effect on the way one writes or manages things is simply short-sighted.

Si_UKNZ

I'm asking if the freedom to expressive yourself - and belief that it's an unalienable right in this country (the US)

You think free speech isn't part of UK culture, seriously? Freedom of speech is just as strong in the UK (some would say stronger). I think that might be why you have a lot of people confused on your 'culture' point.

I would also suggest that it's probably a part of this discussion that's not going to end up in a very useful direction, as the implications of what you're saying are slightly inflammatory.

TalasAntares

Not to step on anyone's toes here, but this thread is rapidly becoming a seething mass of negativity. I don't know about anyone else, but I collect Lego and have fun doing so as a means of escape from all the negativity in this world...
In other words...this thread is bringin' me down man! lol
(sorry weak attempt at humor)

Yellowcastle

@legomatt - I agree that, at the very least, a PM from me would probably have been beneficial so I do apologize for dropping the ball there.

The fact remains that your comment, though very well written, was a response to a sidebar conversation that had already been moved to another thread. I would have simply moved your comment over to that thread, but that thread had already gone way way off track and was thus closed by Huw. Much like Tom Hanks in The Terminal, your comment had no home. :o)

But don't fret, it didn't disappear into the ether. I pasted into a offline thread where it will live on forever.

Huw

Thank you for bringing up this subject @PerryMakes.

There are two main reasons why the moderators may step in and remove/edit posts:

- To keep this a fun place to be, on topic, free of flaming, trolling, spam, childishness and so on.

- When information that we've expressly been asked not to publish by LEGO is posted. This will usually be links to confidential images but also exceptionally when LEGO has contacted me directly with a 'take down notice'. This was the case recently with the 2012 exclusives set list, which as you can imagine is particluarly sensitive information because of the fanfare they usually like to have surrounding their release.

However, I agree we could probably lighten up on that particular information given it's still at fbtb and LEGO has made no attempt to remove it from there.

Everyone's welcome to mention and discuss other 2012 releases and until I'm asked by LEGO otherwise, such posts won't be redacted. However, links to confidential images will be removed.

As has been mentioned above I am actively working with several people in LEGO to try and improve the flow of information and clarify the rules about what to and not to publish.

LukeSkywalker

I made a semi-cryptic comment in the 2012 thread alluding to the info being available on fbtb (with no link and no direct mention of fbtb), and the whole comment was removed without explanation. :(

Matthew

^ That was me, and as with Yellowcastle above, maybe some more explanation would have been warranted. I can't remember the post now, but at the time I viewed it inappropriate for public view after LEGO had asked us not to publicise the list. Quite possibly I was wrong, as the information still hasn't been removed. My apologies.

Duchessa

Being a site admin/moderator isn't easy. There will always be opinions about how the site is run. Some might think it's too much moderation, others too little. Some want stricter rules, others no rules at all. And both sides express their opinion, which is a good thing.

The only common denominator (is that the right word?) is that the staff usually don't get much credit for their time and effort. And believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

I really enjoy this site, even though I usually read more than I post. But I think that this is the right place for me to thank Huw and the rest of the staff for everything they do to make this place what it is: a friendly and very vibrant Lego community.

Istokg

One thing that Huw and the others have to address is the "balancing act" of keeping TLG "relatively" happy. Huw and Ian were allowed into the Billund Vault to photograph many of the images used in the Brickset database. And they are also allowed to add to that list by keeping the Brickset database relatively current. So they want to be careful not to bite the hand that proverbially feeds them.

As for moderating the forum... perhaps there is more "control" than many of us are used to... but I look at what happened on LUGNET many years ago (the "Bley Wars") and the banning on Bricklink that has chased people away from both forums. This forum is a nice "oasis of LEGO solitude" where the discussion remains friendly and always about LEGO....

dougts

^ that, and you don't have to wade through endless streams of "hey, this is really cool man" posts to find the 10% (or less) of useful information.

I find the posts and topics here are on point, relevant, and easily accessible/filterable. On many forums with loose to no moderation, it's an all day job to find the 1% of posts/comments that actually contain helpful and/or interesting information.

LukeSkywalker

@Matthew That's okay, all is forgiven and it's in the past. :) I was just taken aback at the time because I regarded the comment as fairly innocent and harmless (where I gave a coded clue to the whereabouts of the 2012 sets info). But I do understand that it was sensitive information yet to be officially unveiled, and since LEGO had communicated that the information be removed from brickset, abiding by TLG's direct requests is in everyone's best interest.

bmwlego

Interesting topic to say the least. After reading the thread I've noticed 2 mods state that in retrospect they could have explained to a poster of a redacted comment why the comment was removed. That could be a great way to ensure that users don't take things personally and want to quit the site.

PerryMakes

Now that we've all had our laugh regarding the title being changed, I'd respectfully ask that the person who modified it please return the original title. It was funny though.

Si_UKNZ

@PerryMakes - Please don't send me personal flames through the message system.

PerryMakes

@Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK if you're going to make accusations, I have every right to respond - and it's common courtesy when it doesn't involve the entire group to do so offline. If you don't want the response, please don't make the accusations.

PerryMakes

@Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK - one last thing before I leave you to your peace - you're private message to me requesting that we not have a private conversation has a timestamp of 2:43am. Your message here to the group has a timestamp of 2:48 ... 5 minutes later. So I have to wonder ... is this message truly meant for asking me to not send what you call "personal flames" through the messaging system? Or an opportunity for you to convince others that I've got some nefarious agenda... I'm pretty sure the private message sent first was enough to convey your point.

Si_UKNZ

Im not interested in a random argument with a flamer, I'm not getting involved.

Note to admins: Another insulting personal message sent to me from @Perrymakes.

PerryMakes

My apologies. I didn't realize she was so sensitive. Back on topic now please.

collect_that

Having been tempted to post earlier, then deciding against it. I can't help it now! This thread is bringing nothing to the community after initially perhaps being a interesting topic. But my suspicions were right, just an excuse to provoke people.

This forum and database is free to use and extremely useful, if you feel over moderated post elswhere. If you don't like the fact certain information is removed a quick browser search will surely yield and genuine threads that are useful will continue.

Legoboy

^ Agreed, although I have a feeling this spat has nothing to do with LEGO or moderation anymore.

I too am having trouble biting my tongue. It's pathetic. I'm not one to shy away from confrontation, but to continue such a petty argument in front of the entire Brickset community.....I'd feel embarassed. Please stop and continue elsewhere if you must.

dimefield

It was interesting to read about some of the reasons "redacting" (had to look it up!) was taking place but now this thread is just getting silly!