LEGO fight Against Chinese counterfeit LEGO

Recce

nhyone said:

Did Lepin just came out with these recently? (Recently as in the past few months.)

Because I just recalled what my local ezbuy deliveryman told me two months ago: that he had been delivering "nothing but" these large "Lego" sets recently.

At that time I thought it was bonafide Lego sets, but now I think not.

I think Lepin Cafe Corner was only released early this month, and now (as in this week) their latest is the Town Hall.

CCC

TigerMoth said:

Everybody seems to have their own idea of what fits into each category and there's a lot of crossover anyway. There are be companies that only reproduce TLG's products, those that only produce their own, and those that produce both. Some produce pieces of their own design; others do not. Furthermore every part of the world has different brands stretching the definitions in a variety of different directions. Some companies also emulate the packaging to some degree or another and then things start getting subjective.

And when is a product a copy and when is it just another manufacturer's version of the original. They're obviously likely to be close, but how close?

And of course, in some cases, LEGO has produced parts that are very similar to ones first produced by other companies.

SprinkleOtter

^ Namely...?

CCC

Many of the historical helmets and shields in the CMF range were done by other companies before LEGO did their own versions.

For example:

SprinkleOtter

Now, that's a bit different, isn't it? Spartan helmets looked like that (or people perceive that they look like that), so there is little one can do to change it.

Now, LEGO makes a special winged piece, and someone else copies it, is completely different. The second company could have chosen to make the part completely differently, with no change in their model. But they didn't.

datsunrobbie

Are you saying that if a competitor was to make a really useful new part, perhaps a 2x2 plate with studs on both sides, that LEGO should not produce that part?

SprinkleOtter

datsunrobbie said:

Are you saying that if a competitor was to make a really useful new part, perhaps a 2x2 plate with studs on both sides, that LEGO should not produce that part?

No, as you can clearly see in my comment, I said nothing about that. What I actually said was that LEGO has yet to do something like that, AFAIK.

CCC

SprinkleOtter said:

Now, that's a bit different, isn't it? Spartan helmets looked like that (or people perceive that they look like that), so there is little one can do to change it.

Now, LEGO makes a special winged piece, and someone else copies it, is completely different. The second company could have chosen to make the part completely differently, with no change in their model. But they didn't.

LEGO could see that they were popular, so they chose to make their own Spartan. Maybe completely independently without seeing the parts, maybe after seeing their popularity. We don't know.

If megabloks decide that they need a 1x1 brick with a stud on the side does that mean that they have copied lego?

And should lego be banned from making parts like these as then they would be copying, even though they may decide such a part is useful?

CCC

SprinkleOtter said:

datsunrobbie said:

Are you saying that if a competitor was to make a really useful new part, perhaps a 2x2 plate with studs on both sides, that LEGO should not produce that part?

No, as you can clearly see in my comment, I said nothing about that. What I actually said was that LEGO has yet to do something like that, AFAIK.

Apart from the original copying of Kiddikraft bricks?

datsunrobbie

OK, and as far as I know that is true.

A competitor does make a 2x2 plate with studs on both sides currently. As a functional part, there is little that could be changed. Should that prevent LEGO from making the same piece?

SprinkleOtter

CCC said:

LEGO could see that they were popular, so they chose to make their own Spartan. Maybe completely independently without seeing the parts, maybe after seeing their popularity. We don't know.

If megabloks decide that they need a 1x1 brick with a stud on the side does that mean that they have copied lego?

And should lego be banned from making parts like these as then they would be copying, even though they may decide such a part is useful?

Again, you ignored my point- the spartan is based off of something. If you draw a self-portrait, and someone draws a picture of you, how different will they look?

Again, not my point. As I said, LEGO has not copied anyone in recent history, and nobody has been able to prove me wrong, instead going on the offensive to make it look like they are correct. Heck, say they copied someone to begin with- as courts have ruled, functional elements like the 2x4 are open game.

samiam391

On another note, here's something I found while browsing eBay last night:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/142035461908?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

77 Super Hero figures for $59, with lots of big name characters. That's essentially a choice between paying $30 for an original deadpool or $59 to get deadpool and 76 other characters. Even if the quality is lower, that's a tough sale for minifigure re-sellers. 

Bosstone100

^ Some of them are "original". I like the Wasp figure and is that a different Hawkman?

SumoLego

^^  Why does Shazam have a gun?  That's just weird.

Jern92

Recce said:

Bobflip said:

I wonder who's going to bite first and let us know how the brick quality and clutch power of the deleted modulars is...

Just finished building the one and only copycat set I have, the Lepin Cafe Corner. I don't have the Lego original so can't do a direct compare but overall experience is surprisingly positive for me, though I'm sure a diehard AFOL will still have lots to nitpick on.

Took some pictures as below, you can see that the bricks are pretty well clutched together, finishing is about as good as Lego, but the trans parts and panels are kinda dull and not as clear as they should be. There are around 3 of the 2x1x3 dark red slope bricks which look to be fractions of an mm shorter than the rest (guess their QC isn't as strict), other than that no major problems for me.

Almost all the bricks are used up with 2 leftover parts, unlike Lego sets which usually have extra 1x1 studs, plates, tiles etc. In my set, there is a missing 1x2 plate and one 1x4 plate which is of the wrong colour. The 2 large plates which were used as the base kinda flexed up around the edges, a problem which can be solved by replacing them with a Lego baseplate. 

Thanks for the review. It actually looks pretty decent from the pictures you shared. I've been considering it and I think I'm going to bite the bullet and see what happens. 

brumey

ok...
beware of that ali-thingy . i already paid and now he writes to me in broken english basically telling me that he doesnt have them modulars. goin for refund now...

ordered 15 guns (uzi, minigun, pumpgun ....) for 1,39 with free shipping tough.

SprinkleOtter

@brumey Surprise! An illegal enterprise doesn't live up to its word.

xwingpilot

I'm can't believe that any Brickset members would even consider buying knock-off brands for their collection.

SumoLego

^ Agreed.  I have problem enough seeing MB on end caps near Lego product, let alone obvious fakes from the internet.

(Aside from the brand loyalty thing and my general distain for trading on other people's intellectual property, and the likely horrible production conditions for those making the product...)

brumey

only wanted to order town hall, green grocer and cafe corner for around 55,- each.
demand seems to be very high!

SumoLego

(Full disclosure, I do own a set of Beatles K'Nex Yellow Submarine figures.  Which I am eagerly waiting to jettison once the Ideas set is released.)

And I don't want to besmirch legitimate Lego competitors by lumping them in with counterfeit producers.

xwingpilot

Inferior competitors are one thing (each to their own I guess), but I can't understand how any satisfaction can be derived from having rip-off copies (Lepin, LEBQ etc.) in a LEGO collection.

bandit778

@xwingpilot
Unfortunately, while I agree with your sentiment and do not own any other branded blocks or  any clones  myself, as most would agree on here, Lego is an expensive toy.
And while most of us on here have the ability to be able to buy our collections of Lego and keep them as we see fit, others may not be quite so fortunate.
For some, what you get value wise for your money , outweighs brand loyalty so the  cheaper option will win. 
On a side note, I do wonder how many of these copies of expensive, retired sets will be unboxed and sold on eBay as used originals by unscrupulous sellers.

nhyone

I don't see why TLG can't issue a cease-and-desist letter. I mean, even in China, there are Copyright laws, right? :-)

The copycats copy TLG's current products, so they are a direct threat to TLG's sales right now. But they also copy high-valued discontinued products. I think that has huge ramifications for both TLG and the secondary market.

It's simple why someone may choose a copycat product: they are cheap and good-enough. The Lepin Brick Bank is 1/5 the price of the real Lego set locally (in Singapore), if I didn't calculate wrongly.

Aanchir

nhyone said:

I don't see why TLG can't issue a cease-and-desist letter. I mean, even in China, there are Copyright laws, right? :-)

As I understand it, there are copyright laws, but weak enforcement of those laws. And in the instances where a knock-off manufacturer DOES get shut down, there's very little to keep them from closing up shop and reopening somewhere else under a new brand name. Coupled with the relative simplicity of copying injection-molded plastic pieces compared to, say, electronics or designer clothes, the LEGO Group has basically had to get used to knock-offs as an inevitable reality even as they fight to keep the problem from expanding.

josekalel

This is an issue that's always gonna polarize people. On one side, we have the expiration of a patent, and on the other, we have true counterfeit products. In a capitalist and demand and supply economy, I cannot understand why people get offended when companies like Mega Blocks, Kre-O, or the Dollar General One sell building blocks sets, regardless of quality. 

Like someone mentioned, LEGO IS an expensive product, and as such, is not within everybody's reach, or better said, not all sets are within everybody's reach. Have I been tempted by those counterfeit big sets that sell for a fraction of the LEGO version? No. Is it a tempting option? Of course it is.

Knock-offs and counterfeits should be avoided at all costs, but it wouldn't hurt LEGO to lower their prices for a bit. 

Recce

My 2 cents worth.

TLG should definitely take action asap on those direct copycats, else it will go out of control, especially with the upcoming sets like Green Grocer, UCS MF and even the (rumoured) Grand Carousel. And those are just the EOL sets, we have not touch on the copycat of current sets like the Brick Bank, Tumbler, Batpod, Ninjago Temple etc.

Given the low cost of copycat sets like Town Hall, Cafe Corner compared to MISB Lego originals which cost like over US$1000 each, I wouldn't blame the consumers from choosing based on their wallet.

Do a scan on aliexpress seller histories and you will see lots of buyers (transactions) from all over the world, including Europe and US which supposedly had higher average disposable incomes compared to many Asian countries. In other words, even if you're rich, you can/may still buy the copycat sets purely because of cost.

Someone may brag about having a MISB Lego UCS MF with an AFA graded certificate that he had kept for many years, but many others (kids and adults alike) would likely just get the knock-off version to build and play. And isn't that the ultimate goal, i.e. to buy a toy to enjoy and play regardless of brand? Of course if you're a investor or a diehard AFOL then it's a different story.

Brickset shows I've spent US$75K on my Lego sets to date, though I'm pretty sure it costs me US$10K to $20K more given a lot of the sets I bought are of higher pricing than the stated US RRP. Will the outpour of copycats affect me? Maybe. Do I care? Not really, since I'm willing to pay what I've paid for the Lego toys, that is already my satisfaction, future rise or fall in price of the sets I own will not affect my enjoyment.

Aanchir

josekalel said:

This is an issue that's always gonna polarize people. On one side, we have the expiration of a patent, and on the other, we have true counterfeit products. In a capitalist and demand and supply economy, I cannot understand why people get offended when companies like Mega Blocks, Kre-O, or the Dollar General One sell building blocks sets, regardless of quality. 

Like someone mentioned, LEGO IS an expensive product, and as such, is not within everybody's reach, or better said, not all sets are within everybody's reach. Have I been tempted by those counterfeit big sets that sell for a fraction of the LEGO version? No. Is it a tempting option? Of course it is.

Knock-offs and counterfeits should be avoided at all costs, but it wouldn't hurt LEGO to lower their prices for a bit. 

Well, it's already a lot less expensive than when I was a kid. For other countries it might be a different story, but for the United States (where the more legitimate clone brands like Mega Bloks and Kre-O do a lot of their business), the claim that "LEGO is getting too expensive" tends to fall apart under scrutiny, with the exception of a few specific themes.

Like, one of my favorite childhood Castle sets was #6048, which was 185 pieces/459 grams/2 minifigures for $26. Even if it were $26 in today's money that'd seem like a poor price per piece, but that was 1993 dollars — adjusted for inflation, that's $44.28.

By comparison, $40 today will get you sets like:
#21126 (318 pieces/550 grams/3 minifigures)
#31050 (467 pieces/755 grams/2 minifigures)
#41119 (439 pieces/738 grams/2 minifigures)
#41175 (441 pieces/592 grams/2 minifigures)
#60111 (368 pieces/636 grams/3 minifigures)
#70315 (367 pieces/638 grams/5 minifigures)
#75824 (386 pieces/700 grams/4 minifigures)
#76056 (257 pieces/478 grams/4 minifigures)
#76059 (446 pieces/623 grams/5 minifigures)

Naturally, some of these sets offer a better value than others, but they ALL appear to offer a better value than #6048 did. So, would it be better for buyers if LEGO started offering the same content at the same quality for a lower price? Definitely! But I don't know if it's realistic for those of us in the US to be calling for that, when we generally get a pretty swell deal these days, all things considered.

Now, for markets like China and Central America, which tend to have a lot of low-income residents and also generally high LEGO prices, cutting down on the local prices could indeed help cut down on knock-offs, and I think that's something LEGO is presently trying to grapple with (it's part of why the new factory in China was proposed — in order to more efficiently supply authentic LEGO products to the Asian market).

Recce

Looks like another new release is imminent.

pharmjod

And the hits keep rolling! Can't wait to see the carousel.

thehornedrat

I am torn. The price of Lego has been escalating drastically. These large sets are getting more impressive by the day. I myself also have spent a tens of thousands of my savings into LEGO, sacrificing countless hours off sweat, tears and overtime in order to fund my hobby.

And these sets, despite the quality are actually quite impressive.

I have recently acquired other (competingly expensive) hobbies recently and requiring to budget more strictly now into buying LEGO (ie spending less money). I am wondering whether I should make the jump and cross over and start to buy these instead.

It appears thousands of people had already the switch with no such compunctions. Ultimately my lack of funds will decide my next course of action. (clicks buy). And I'm not sorry :)

I think you simply cant just make blatant ripoffs of these LEGO sets. Its waaaay to obvious, and its all suspiciously done by LEPIN. Makes me suspect if LEGO actually owns this company.

And I also can't wait for the Carousel to be released :)

thehornedrat

Oh, and

http://mybrickstore.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/lepin-05003-lego-star-wars-first-order.html

Reading the comments, people (sounds like westerners too, are vouching for Lepin's plastic/build quality. I'm feeling less guilty now! ^^

brumey

there seems to be something going on:

i ordered townhall from another seller again. 1 day later he tells me that they arent allowed to ship to europe!

Jern92

xwingpilot said:

I'm can't believe that any Brickset members would even consider buying knock-off brands for their collection.

The only reason I'm considering it is because I know I will never be able to afford a Cafe Corner at the current price it's going at, and even if I could I wouldn't, because it's a ridiculous sum of money that can be put towards savings, investment, paying for my part-time classes, travelling etc. 

However, I would not buy fakes if the original LEGO product is available, like the Brick Bank which I just picked up a week ago after saving for a few months, and the GBHQ when I can next afford it. No way am I going near the Lepin versions of those. 

eggshen

<sarcasm>
Well shoot. I think we should all switch over to buying this stuff instead of the overpriced sets from TLG.

Why should we pay extra, it's not like TLG has to pay their employees for designing these sets, testing new parts, advertising, licensing fees, etc. I mean, how hard is it to design a huge set like this? It's not at all hard. Any one of us have tons of equally good if not better MOC's that we design weekly.

I think TLG needs to start adopting LEPIN's business model so their prices drop. Additionally they need to stop being greedy and just hand all their business information including all future set designs over to these companies. It's not really fair that TLG beats other companies like LEPIN to market.
</sarcasm>

I used to design products for a company here in the states that decided to start manufacturing in Shenzhen. We had all of our boards built there and would put the outer housings on here in the states. We started seeing copies of our products in stores in Asia, so we moved our manufacturing to a different company, same thing happened. We changed a number of times, every company we worked with would sell our designs to other companies or just manufacture the copies themselves (so not really copies, the legit product with a different housing). One of them even beat us to market with one of our new products, they didn't realize that I had an acquaintance in Taiwan that helped me design one of the components for it, he saw the product in a store there and let me know. The owner refused to pull board manufacturing back to the states, he eventually sold the company and we all got the boot.

So needless to say, I do not have very many positive things to say about copycat companies.

BrickDancer

^So often you hear grumbling and complaints about poor wages, lost jobs, increasing living costs due to greedy corporations outsourcing production of US or EU made goods. Yet when faced with a decision of saving a few bucks and buying counterfeit goods from China, we see people leaping at the opportunity. And you wonder how we got to this point.

Don't deceive yourselves into thinking you're not part of the problem and actually fueling it to be worse. Either that or you simply don't care/value these types of matters. In which case, do as you may and don't bother feeling sorry about your actions. While you're at it go out and by some Folex watches & Gocci handbags while listening to stolen music off BitTorrent.

AllBrick

Not a chance in Hades I'll let any of these lepers through my front door, buying one would be insanity.

I would rather bricklink every set made past and present than substitute one for an inferior product despite what any review says.

Every time one of these sets is purchased, a minifigure dies.

Aanchir

thehornedrat said:

I think you simply cant just make blatant ripoffs of these LEGO sets. Its waaaay to obvious, and its all suspiciously done by LEPIN. Makes me suspect if LEGO actually owns this company.

That's got to be the kookiest conspiracy theory in this topic to date! News flash: making fake LEGO products is way easier than you think it is. Companies have been doing it for over half a century. I mean, the original LEGO "automatic binding brick" itself was one of many copies of the British "Kiddicraft" bricks, and that was before the days of Photoshop or digital CAD software. And as soon as LEGO entered the building toy market in the 50s, they became a target for knock-offs themselves. Some of those early knock-offs even copied the art of the children of the founding family that appeared on some of the boxes! Just because it's "obvious" doesn't mean it's easy to prevent.

legobod

I wouldn't be able to afford the fake GBHQ at $190 nevermind the real thing at $350+tax

eggshen

@Aanchir I hadn't really thought of that. The internet is really just exposing more of us to something that has always existed. Maybe it isn't increasing just getting more exposure to the rest of the world outside of those markets.

The owner of the company I mentioned before always used to tell me about the markets he would go to in various countries and all the bootleg stuff there. I always assumed it was just a bunch of watches/bags/etc there, that's the kind of stuff he would bring home. I guess when he said you could get anything there he really meant it.

josekalel

I mean, why buy generic when you can spend more buying the name-brand drug...Yes, we are the problem, but in the economic situation where most of us are, buying a set from China that is 50% less than the 'brand-name' is very enticing. Why go to Walmart or the Dollar store when you can spend more in an expensive store? We can get very specific and deep into the issue, but it all comes to money.

In a time when manufacturing products is cheaper overseas, charging customers the same amount for a set when they had a monopoly to when they don't anymore, is a bit unfair (not illegal or unethical). LEGO might be a 'premium' product and cheapening it might make it a commodity, which is why they might not wanna drop prices.

For the past seven years, LEGO has made record profits and each years its NET profit increases substantially, so saying that 'poor LEGO company might lose money' is BS. I am no apologist (lately, people become fanatics and apologists for everything they like), and I understand how supply/demand works (like I mentioned before), but it's dumb for people to get mad at other people because they prefer to buy something that's cheaper, although maybe illegal.

For example, I just bought #76013 Batman Joker Steamroller on 'clearance' at Walmart for $50, and if we look online, we can find it for less than $30, which is a 40% difference (from the clearance price). If the quality is inferior but not by much, if the people are getting paid low wages for manufacturing it regardless of which company I buy it from, besides an ethical dilemma over copyright, what entices me to buy it cheaper? It's a tough decision and issue than we think. Just like we have an ethical dilemma, so do other companies that overcharge for their products, and I do not see anyone complaining. Companies know all the risk involved in manufacturing, again, I can't be an apologist. 

BrickDancer

josekalel said:

... but it's dumb for people to get mad at other people because they prefer to buy something that's cheaper, although maybe illegal.

Call me simple, but the 'illegal' part of it should be enough reason as to why not.

Plus we need to draw a line of difference between illegal counterfeits (Lepin, etc) and legitimate clones (Megablocks, Kreo, etc.). There's a huge difference between the 2 types. Mainly legal versus illegal.

TigerMoth

BrickDancer said:

Plus we need to draw a line of difference between illegal counterfeits (Lepin, etc) and legitimate clones (Megablocks, Kreo, etc.).

If you want to draw lines, do not use the word "counterfeit". I suspect we've got that to come and is likely to affect all of us, regardless of our moral stance.

A counterfeit says "LEGO" on the box, but has nothing to do with TLG.

datsunrobbie

Last night I built a simple display for minifigures that uses the holes in the back of the legs to hold them in place. I started with genuine LEGO bricks, but they were mostly Samsonite-era bricks and would not hold the minifigs, so I ended up using a bunch of off-brand bricks from my scrap bin, because they fit together better than the genuine LEGO parts.

Does anyone know if LEGO or Disney have filed suit against LEPIN over their recent releases? I'm not one to encourage buying illegally made bricks, but I would think that if these were illegal that Mickey's lawyers would have taken action to stop them. 

At the 2016 CES show Future Motion got an injunction against a Chinese company showing off a "hoverboard" that closed the competitor's booth at the show. Future Motion filed for a temporary restraining order on January 6, 2016, and it was granted the next day. I would expect that Disney has a much larger legal team than Future Motion, but I'm not seeing any lawsuits filed by Disney against LEPIN. Maybe there are licensing deals in place that we know nothing about, or maybe there is just enough variance in the products that even Disney lawyers have not found a legal basis to stop them. Maybe these clones represent such a small amount of sales that Disney cannot be bothered to go after them, but that seems unlikely given their litigation history.

brumey

also...

awaiting 4 orders with 20 fake-lego-baseplates each (80x). its been 5 weeks now!

but 1,36€ for a 32x16 baseplate is a really good price! and justifies the waiting time!

BrickDancer

@TigerMoth then what would you term a company like Lepin? And what would you term a true competitor like Megablocks?

TigerMoth

BrickDancer said:

@TigerMoth then what would you term a company like Lepin? And what would you term a true competitor like Megablocks?

As I said, I don't try to distinguish between them with names because everybody has their own idea of where the boundaries lie.

But a counterfeit is something else, something that is a lot more insidious.

SumoLego

AllBrick said:

Every time one of these sets is purchased, a minifigure dies.

Worse yet, a Lego Unicorn looses a piece of rainbow hair!

eggshen

Does anyone else feel that LEPIN is trying to trick consumers that are not familiar with Latin characters into thinking they are actually buying real LEGO products? I could get tricked pretty easily into buying counterfeit Glico Pocky sticks if the box had everything the same except the Glico logo in Japanese. I couldn't tell you what the real characters should be but I recognize the box. I think they are trying to do the same thing with consumers in Asian markets. I wonder how many people buy these sets thinking they have legit LEGO products. 

Anyway, I found these images on another site that was reviewing the LEPIN copy of the #75105 Millenium Falcon: 

real figure: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uYDsVl3NsZY/Vr3wBOmcpHI/AAAAAAAABlY/xPMbV3KVTuQ/s1600-h/IMG_20160211_223033%255B5%255D.jpg

fake figure: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fncoHCF5LSs/Vr3wCvMAtkI/AAAAAAAABlg/aW30rtLU0w8/s1600-h/IMG_20160211_222959%255B4%255D.jpg

The figures are pretty laughable:

All fake figures: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fcU-9SuQLy8/Vr3wIlHI93I/AAAAAAAABmA/ga-uhdmQw4I/s1600-h/IMG_20160211_222941%255B4%255D.jpg

Seems like the pieces are pretty good, but the real problem here isn't the bricks, it's the IP that belongs to TLG and Disney.

prevere

Don't forget "My World".

pharmjod said:

And the hits keep rolling! Can't wait to see the carousel.

Let's see if they can successfully include the sound brick. Otherwise, it's not the Grand Carousel.