LEGO fight Against Chinese counterfeit LEGO

stlux

@andhe It's very real and can be found on AliExpress and other distributors of fake goods. Aimed at those who somehow think EUR/USD150 for 2000+pieces is too expensive, but still think it's their god-given right to own the set.

Well, when I say real, I mean "they already advertise it now, and will post it to you as soon as they have figured out how to actually produce it". That's usually a couple of weeks after the release of the actual Lego set.

Recce

From a legit company standpoint, regardless of how your product is being copied or reproduced you must at least have your own legal ground to start a court battle, in this case having patented part designs is just a small part of it. Of course whether they will win the battle is a whole different matter, especially in China where copyright laws are different than US or EU.

Other less clear areas like Star Wars, Marvel, as mentioned here will have to depend on Disney and Marvel to do the suing, if there is intention to do so.

Recce

CCC said:

Recce said:

Sets build with legal bricks (i.e. expired patents) are technically legal to manufacture by any company. 

Isn't that what the case is likely to be about - copying specific sets rather than parts.

Recce said:

What TLG CAN do is to be more competitive in  terms of price

So you are suggesting that they drop prices to combat the fakes? What about the costs of product design, advertising, national and international regulations and so on?

Sets are build from individual bricks, if someone sells a combination of non-Lego bricks that allow you to build certain model, is that illegal? This has been debated many times over in countless previous posts.

Being competitive is not just about dropping prices per se. Samsung is being competitive when they go against Apple, Microsoft is being competitive when they go against Sony in the video game business. These companies can set their products at certain pricing and at the same time be competitive and still make a profit.

Of course in a monopoly industry with no real threat to your product line, you can price it as high as you want. 

Recce

andhe said:

I'm confused. Is that Lepin Fishing store for 'real'. I assumed it was iso playing a photoshop joke...

Lepin don't have the Fishing store set, at least for now. The image is likely some quick photoshop job.

Though once the product is released, I won't be surprised the Lepin version will be out almost just as quickly, like a few weeks after.

Recce

stlux said:

@andhe It's very real and can be found on AliExpress and other distributors of fake goods. Aimed at those who somehow think EUR/USD150 for 2000+pieces is too expensive, but still think it's their god-given right to own the set.

I do have to say it is also their god-given right to buy whatever they want, with whatever money they have and they don't need to answer to some self-rightous individuals that are standing so high and mightly on the moral grandstand.

See how it goes?

You can defend a toy company till kingdom come and nothing will change, people will just go on living their life, and spending their hard-earned money however they want.

Peace out bro.

iso3200

Recce said:

andhe said:

I'm confused. Is that Lepin Fishing store for 'real'. I assumed it was iso playing a photoshop joke...

Lepin don't have the Fishing store set, at least for now. The image is likely some quick photoshop job.

Though once the product is released, I won't be surprised the Lepin version will be out almost just as quickly, like a few weeks after.

No - not me messing in photoshop. The image is real - taken from Aliexpress (as confirmed by @CCC )

It is a presell item at the moment, but will turn into an "Actuals" once they have the instructions and knowledge of all the parts.

CCC

Recce said:

CCC said:

Recce said:

Sets build with legal bricks (i.e. expired patents) are technically legal to manufacture by any company. 

Isn't that what the case is likely to be about - copying specific sets rather than parts.

Recce said:

What TLG CAN do is to be more competitive in  terms of price

So you are suggesting that they drop prices to combat the fakes? What about the costs of product design, advertising, national and international regulations and so on?

Sets are build from individual bricks, if someone sells a combination of non-Lego bricks that allow you to build certain model, is that illegal? This has been debated many times over in countless previous posts.

And the answer is we don't know. Of course, as well as the parts they also need to provide the instructions so someone can build what is intended, which are often copyrighted. I've never bought a Lepin set to check (my fakes are all minifigures) but is the order of the steps the same?

CCC

iso3200 said:

Recce said:

andhe said:

I'm confused. Is that Lepin Fishing store for 'real'. I assumed it was iso playing a photoshop joke...

Lepin don't have the Fishing store set, at least for now. The image is likely some quick photoshop job.

Though once the product is released, I won't be surprised the Lepin version will be out almost just as quickly, like a few weeks after.

No - not me messing in photoshop. The image is real - taken from Aliexpress (as confirmed by @CCC )

It is a presell item at the moment, but will turn into an "Actuals" once they have the instructions and knowledge of all the parts.

The one I linked to no longer has that image, just the images stolen from lego's website.

CCC

stlux said:

@andhe It's very real and can be found on AliExpress and other distributors of fake goods. Aimed at those who somehow think EUR/USD150 for 2000+pieces is too expensive, but still think it's their god-given right to own the set.

Of course, they don't own "the set". They own a fake of the set. Although for many that is enough, like those that wear fake sunglasses and shoes and carry fake handbags.

nhyone

iso3200 said:

No - not me messing in photoshop. The image is real - taken from Aliexpress (as confirmed by @CCC )

Sure, but it is probably done by the seller, not Lepin. AFAIK, Lepin only uses offical Lego pictures. :-D

AustinPowers

Interesting tidbit perhaps: Lepin has now also got a version of Anio's great MOC of the Venator Class Star Destroyer, set number 05077.

The funny part is, I bought the instructions from Anio a while ago and started sourcing the missing parts (which were more than I first thought, it has a total of about 5500 after all, and I "only" had about 75 percent of those) via BL and Lego B&P.
By now I have most of them, except for some of the most expensive ones. At that point I thought how great it would be if there had been a Lepin version of that MOC from the start. And boom, now there is.

But the interesting thing is, Lepin seems to have changed Anio's design quite a bit. Their version has almost 1000 more parts, and several areas of the ship are in fact very different from Anio's version. One change they seem to have made, judging by the pictures, is that the exchanged the very rare completely light bluish grey small antennas with base for the standard light bluish grey base with black antennas. When sourcing the parts for my project, I bought the standard antennas as well, but painted the black bits in light bluish grey with acrylic paint. The now look like the real thing. Thank god for that, as these are so hard to come by and expensive, and you need several dozens of them too. So even buying the Lepin version wouldn't have helped ;-)

bandit778

AustinPowers said:

When sourcing the parts for my project, I bought the standard antennas as well, but painted the black bits in light bluish grey with acrylic paint. The now look like the real thing. Thank god for that, as these are so hard to come by and expensive, and you need several dozens of them too. 

You could have gone for the Light Grey lever to go in the LBG base, they are quite cheap to source and on the builds do not look out of place at all. 

AustinPowers

I know, but the problem is that I need more than 80 of them, and even the light grey ones are only cheap when you need less than 10. Painting black ones was the far cheaper option. I know, purists might flinch, but I don't care, as long as it's Lego and the overall look is the same...

I also plan to modify Anio's instructions where he used the 4188676 tan plate for magnets, which only appeared in 10030 ISD and which cost more than 5 Euro apiece on BL currently, even in different colours. I'm sure I'm going to find a solution though. It's Lego after all ;-)

datsunrobbie

@AustinPowers, your description of the Lepin Venator makes it sound like they are doing some design work, not just stealing other people's designs. Lepin is making the parts, so changes in parts only make sense if they are trying to avoid patent problems. 

If an AFOL had posted the Lepin version as a MOC on Ideas, would you call it a rip-off of Anio's Venator? Or maybe it's a ripoff of one of the other MOCs of that ship, since there are many of them posted online. Building the different versions side-by-side would be interesting, to see how similar (and how different) the actual build process is. The end result is obviously similar, as they both depict the same ship.

CCC

I wouldn't surprise me if someone else had added to the original MOC and published it online, and Lepin have copied that.

monkeyhanger

^^ Are they not just changing parts when they don't have the tooling to make the parts they're changing from? I doubt Lepin gives a damn about avoiding copyright issues with substituting patent protected parts.

CCC

Pogo are copying Atlantis now too, and this one is interesting ... the Atlantis Temple Statue. Note the helmet he is wearing, it is a Rohan helmet in gold.





They are also doing what quite a few people have wanted LEGO to do ... fleshie historic characters and parts.

The first head is a bit goofy, and they've ripped off brickwarriors spear, helmet, cloak and shield but these will probably sell quite well. If only lego could catch up.


They've got a nice roman 'skirt' with fleshie legs too.

And a different era, but ... LEGO why can't you do prints like this?

iso3200

I'm Spartacus.

datsunrobbie

monkeyhanger said:

^^ Are they not just changing parts when they don't have the tooling to make the parts they're changing from? I doubt Lepin gives a damn about avoiding copyright issues with substituting patent protected parts.

That's certainly another possibility. The Lepin Venator has roughly 20% more pieces than Anio's Venator. I don't have parts lists or instructions for either set, so I cannot tell what the differences are. 

masterX244

AustinPowers said:

Interesting tidbit perhaps: Lepin has now also got a version of Anio's great MOC of the Venator Class Star Destroyer, set number 05077.

The funny part is, I bought the instructions from Anio a while ago and started sourcing the missing parts (which were more than I first thought, it has a total of about 5500 after all, and I "only" had about 75 percent of those) via BL and Lego B&P.
By now I have most of them, except for some of the most expensive ones. At that point I thought how great it would be if there had been a Lepin version of that MOC from the start. And boom, now there is.

But the interesting thing is, Lepin seems to have changed Anio's design quite a bit. Their version has almost 1000 more parts, and several areas of the ship are in fact very different from Anio's version. One change they seem to have made, judging by the pictures, is that the exchanged the very rare completely light bluish grey small antennas with base for the standard light bluish grey base with black antennas. When sourcing the parts for my project, I bought the standard antennas as well, but painted the black bits in light bluish grey with acrylic paint. The now look like the real thing. Thank god for that, as these are so hard to come by and expensive, and you need several dozens of them too. So even buying the Lepin version wouldn't have helped ;-)

I went the light gray route, too but bought them as light gray (skills on painting), wish Anio would have marked invisible parts by a special color so you knew that in advance (some other instruction maker does that, using a color not appearing in build as a "any" color). second "workaround" i did was replacing magnets with a technic-pieces based replacement since that shaved off a few hundred euros.

datsunrobbie

CCC said:

I wouldn't surprise me if someone else had added to the original MOC and published it online, and Lepin have copied that.

Isn't it equally likely that there is a group of folks that work for LEPIN that saw a dozen MOCs of the Venator posted on the net and made their own version by taking ideas from all of them? There are already AFOLs selling the rights to their MOCs to Chinese manufacturers, so it is not really a stretch to think that Lepin could have a few designers on the payroll, even if those designers would rather be working for Lego. Not everybody gets to work in there dream job, and designing sets for Lepin may be as close to being a Lego designer as some people will ever get. Sort of like a vegan working in a steakhouse - not the gig they wanted, but it beats being hungry.

CCC

I don't know. It seems their business model with afols is to take what they want and offer some compensation, rather than getting the afol to commission build something for them. But I guess they could be paying people to redesign other people's mocs.

bandit778

I seem to remember Anio getting extremely angry (IMO rightfully so because of the time and effort that went into producing the instructions for his builds) and getting fellow EB members to complain to ebay everytime the instructions for his MOC's appeared on the site so it's not much of a stretch to think that they were quite easily obtained.
The varying alternative parts needed to replace the magnets would also explain away some of the extra parts are required on the copy. It would be interesting just from a nosey point of view to see the two parts lists and the differences between the two.

ACWWGal2011

Looks like Lepin is starting to copy other sets just based off an image. I hopped on AliExpress to check a couple things and i found something interesting. Lepin Set # 18030. "Minecraft Peak Cave Farm" for 41, available now. The set looks an awful lot like one of the builds for  The Minecraft Lego Crafting box 2.0 set that's not supposed to be out until August.

masterX244

bandit778 said:

I seem to remember Anio getting extremely angry (IMO rightfully so because of the time and effort that went into producing the instructions for his builds) and getting fellow EB members to complain to ebay everytime the instructions for his MOC's appeared on the site so it's not much of a stretch to think that they were quite easily obtained.
The varying alternative parts needed to replace the magnets would also explain away some of the extra parts are required on the copy. It would be interesting just from a nosey point of view to see the two parts lists and the differences between the two.

That doesnt sum up to the big part count difference though since it was only a few axles, adapters and turntables each aka 10 or so parts per holder, there were 2 types and total was 8 to 10 holders.

datsunrobbie

ACWWGal2011 said:

Looks like Lepin is starting to copy other sets just based off an image. I hopped on AliExpress to check a couple things and i found something interesting. Lepin Set # 18030. "Minecraft Peak Cave Farm" for 41, available now. The set looks an awful lot like one of the builds for  The Minecraft Lego Crafting box 2.0 set that's not supposed to be out until August.

I'm not even sure LEPIN is supplying the images on AliExpress. The LEPIN 16050 ads have a variety of images, including one stolen from the brickfanatics website. Most of the ads note that there is no box, so maybe the sellers are just stealing whatever pictures are handy on the internet. If the image came from Lepin I'd expect them all to use the same images.

SumoLego

iso3200 said:

I'm Spartacus.

Spartacus was from Thrace.  Thus, he would not have a Spartan Shield.  And everyone wore body armor - nothing like the bare-chested ridiculousness in 300.  

I think they meant Leonidas, which should be inaccurately translated to 'Lemonade'.

And since I have a degree in Classical Civilization, I am offended by the wanton historical inaccuracy.

I'm Batman.

MAGNINOMINISUMBRA

^ I don't have a degree in Classical Civilization, but it's study has been a hobby for over 25 years so I feel your pain.
  The inability to watch any Roman/ Gladiatorial/ Middle Ages based media without wincing at the wild innaccuracies always grinds my gears (and even more so the other poor bastards around me who have to listen to it)!  It seems even when they go close to getting it right eg - correct armouring and military structure - they then go and get the socio-political stuff all wrong or vice versa.
  My two REAL personal bugbears are represented right here.  Firstly, the assumption that Spartacus was a Spartan from Sparta (Gotta be bro - THE PLACE IS EVEN IN HIS NAME) and secondly,  the depiction of Gladiators as lithe, stacked and toned cross fit instructors (instead of goddam tanks)!
  
To drag the post back on topic -  I'm constantly surprised the cloners haven't released large Star Wars, LOTR (or real life for that matter) battle packs - I think they're genuinely missing a trick. They could sell a veritable SHIPLOAD to those that don't care and quite probably tempt a few purists in the process.

I'm Brian...and so's my wife!

VorpalRyu

Truth is....I am Iron Man...

Ever since I can remember, I've always had a love of history, a part from sci-fi & non-fiction science books, our bookshelves have a somewhat eclectic selection of books on various elements of history. While I may not have a degree, I have many times over the years found myself curious about things that come up in conversations, this usually ends up with me spending weeks, even months researching, amongst other things, various time periods & cultures from previous historic eras (it's a good thing I can function on about four hours sleep a night). There are times that the historical inaccuracies that are perpetrated in books, tv shows & films drive me crazy, as does peoples' lack of knowledge at times about history, especially when they claim to love that historical culture/era.

Totally get where you're coming from @MAGNINOMINISUMBRA on the whole Spartacus/Sparta thing, what part of Spartacus was a Thracian, not a Spartan don't these people get. Another one that does my head in at times is the whole Herakles/Hercules thing, one of the kids in my high school used go on about how one of his ancestors was purportedly one of the Argonauts (apparently it was a family legend), yet he'd say Hercules, not Herakles. People with attitudes like "I'm blah & it's part of blah culture/history, so I think if anyone would know, it's me," can be seriously painful when dealing with lack of historical knowledge.

MAGNINOMINISUMBRA

^ I'm descended from a group of 3000+ year old mythological figures.  It has to be true - Mum said so!

i do kind of feel sorry for people who have stories like this due to 'family legends'.  For most People it's natural to believe the things their family and  forebears before them tell them, and it's a base human desire to want to feel like part of the bigger picture. 
  Not so different to the fact that every second persons Grandad was a Commando during the War.  A quick internet search later - Sorry mate, your Pop was a cook on Troop ship.

SumoLego

MAGNINOMINISUMBRA said:

^ ...A quick internet search later - Sorry mate, your Pop was a cook on Troop ship.

Or maybe... he was Casey Ryback.  That's some dark territory, potentially under siege.

SprinkleOtter

VorpalRyu said:

Totally get where you're coming from @MAGNINOMINISUMBRA on the whole Spartacus/Sparta thing, what part of Spartacus was a Thracian, not a Spartan don't these people get. Another one that does my head in at times is the whole Herakles/Hercules thing, one of the kids in my high school used go on about how one of his ancestors was purportedly one of the Argonauts (apparently it was a family legend), yet he'd say Hercules, not Herakles. People with attitudes like "I'm blah & it's part of blah culture/history, so I think if anyone would know, it's me," can be seriously painful when dealing with lack of historical knowledge.

I'll do him one better- I can trace my ancestry way back to some dude named Adam.

Oh, wait...

SumoLego

Did you come from a cocoon?

(Are we talking different Adams?)

MAGNINOMINISUMBRA

I genuinely lolled. But seriously, talk about picking the low hanging fruit.  I thought about a similarly punny response about there was no true justice and that actors career was so hard to kill he must be above the law - a quick IMDB search indicates it would be possible to include at LEAST 25 to 30 titles. Which in itself is pretty damn weird!  Despite the Cock Puncher being a total dud, all is forgiven for his work in The Onion Movie.

VorpalRyu

The whole one of "my ancestors was one of the crew members of the Argos," was a pretty meh point, I don't think, at least I hope they didn't actually believe that to be true. My bigger issue was that with his Greek ancestry, you'd think that you'd know your own mythology, but even his mother would refer to a certain Grecian Demi-God as Hercules, not Herakles (for those not versed in Greek/Roman mythology, Hercules was the Roman name).

I have a pretty mixed ancestry, but I wouldn't claim expert knowledge of any of my ancestral roots. For example, just a few years ago, I learnt that my dad's mother was actually Jewish & that her parents lived somewhere in Russia, before the rise of Communism & that like a number of other Russian Jews, her parents fled to England from Russia, for fear of persecution from the Communists. During the all lessons in year ten history about Communist Russia, we never touched on the fact that there was a Jewish exodus from Russia during the revolution...

CCC

SumoLego said:

iso3200 said:

I'm Spartacus.

Spartacus was from Thrace.  Thus, he would not have a Spartan Shield.  And everyone wore body armor - nothing like the bare-chested ridiculousness in 300.  

I think they meant Leonidas, which should be inaccurately translated to 'Lemonade'.

And since I have a degree in Classical Civilization, I am offended by the wanton historical inaccuracy.

I don't care too much about the accuracy of the names, minifigure and set names are all a bit dodgy when it comes to cloners. These fill a gap that lego appears unlikely to ever fill. Even with yellow skin minifigures, let alone fleshie.

SprinkleOtter

VorpalRyu said:

I have a pretty mixed ancestry, but I wouldn't claim expert knowledge of any of my ancestral roots. For example, just a few years ago, I learnt that my dad's mother was actually Jewish & that her parents lived somewhere in Russia, before the rise of Communism & that like a number of other Russian Jews, her parents fled to England from Russia, for fear of persecution from the Communists. During the all lessons in year ten history about Communist Russia, we never touched on the fact that there was a Jewish exodus from Russia during the revolution...

I've given up on taking anything I learned in school too seriously. Too much stuff omitted or misinterpreted.

SumoLego

^^ Although I agree, I'd still never buy anything resembling genuine Lego product that is not Lego product.  I can't bring myself to buy a custom Mr. Gold for display purposes.

MAGNINOMINISUMBRA said:

I thought about a similarly punny response about there was no true justice and that actors career was so hard to kill he must be above the law - a quick IMDB search indicates it would be possible to include at LEAST 25 to 30 titles.

(And I was only making Casey Ryback references, not Seagal references.  That was my giant executive decision made on deadly ground, with fire down below. Direct-to-Video 'films' don't count - you can't give those machete hack-job movies hope, not even a glimmer, man.)

datsunrobbie

^So was the cocoon  an Adam Warlock reference?

SumoLego

datsunrobbie said:

^So was the cocoon  an Adam Warlock reference?

But, of course.  We have to stay on topic... er... reference.

(And I doubt anyone is going to appreciate a Don Ameche/Steve Guttenberg reference.)

Jackad7

I'll never knowingly. buy a knock-off that is a copy of any thing lego has made. That being said I stumbled across some knock-offs that are supposed to be Lord of the rings figures (??) that can be bought for just under a dollar a figure. Using parts from two of figures variations and some lego parts I could make some great unsullied figures.

CCC

Most of those parts look like rip-offs of brickwarriors items.

Jackad7

CCC said:

Most of those parts look like rip-offs of brickwarriors items.

Nice save, wasn't aware of their site. Thank!

AustinPowers

masterX244 said:

bandit778 said:

I seem to remember Anio getting extremely angry (IMO rightfully so because of the time and effort that went into producing the instructions for his builds) and getting fellow EB members to complain to ebay everytime the instructions for his MOC's appeared on the site so it's not much of a stretch to think that they were quite easily obtained.
The varying alternative parts needed to replace the magnets would also explain away some of the extra parts are required on the copy. It would be interesting just from a nosey point of view to see the two parts lists and the differences between the two.

That doesnt sum up to the big part count difference though since it was only a few axles, adapters and turntables each aka 10 or so parts per holder, there were 2 types and total was 8 to 10 holders.

Lepin has changed quite a lot more than just those holders, judging by the pictures of the actual set on AliExpress, for example here:

 https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Lepin-05077-Genuine-Star-War-Series-The-UCS-Rupblic-Star-Destroyer-Cruiser-ST04-Set-Building-Blocks/2658171_32798480412.html

Some interesting details even like opening cargo bay doors, and some quite different detailing around the rear end and the engines. I still much prefer the original though.

Otoh they also simplified certain things, like only using 4x4 trans-light-blue discs for the engines, instead if 4x4s AND 3x3s.

CMI

A tour of Sheng Yuan's factory at Chenghai, Guangzhou.This is the birthplace of Pogo minifigures, less than 300km away from Lego factory in China. In fact both of them located at same province.

CCC

^ Your bear is a POGO figure, isn't he?

CMI

CCC said:

^ Your bear is a POGO figure, isn't he?

It's the bear suit man from Enlighten. 

CMI

Pogo factory tour here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1674932916147843.1073741831.1673084802999321&type=1&l=9817a81b80

CCC

63p each (delivered) on ali ...

It is amazing how quick they get the knock-offs out these days. And more variants than lego would ever do.

SumoLego

I like that they're appropriating the graphics from the comic.  Someone is being sufficiently thorough!