LEGO fight Against Chinese counterfeit LEGO

roxio

^^Eh?

CCC

jack_bricks said:

A lot of AFOL are like (or become sort of) Apple-Fans, just woreshiping a company no matter what they do and the product is the holy grale.

I don't mind clones at all.

I don't really even mind fakes, although I know they are wrong. So long as they are described appropriately (and not called lego), they are fine with me. Especially if lego do not care enough to do anything about fakes of their products, then I'm not going to do anything about them either.

I do mind fakes that are sold as lego though. That is telling the customer they are getting lego, when in fact they are getting an often inferior product.

andhe

^There's a seller I often see at a local market selling framed 'lego' figures. I was suspicious when they had rarer Marvel/DC figs, but even more suspicions when I saw a Christo custom fig in a frame, sold for less than the price of the original fig.

Greendude

prevere said:

Blatantly illegal is like saying something is completely destroyed. Just a bit redundant. Sorry, this is the newspaper copy editor coming out in me.

Did you get fired from that job? They're not at all the same. Some things in law are obscure, not blatant.

Greendude

perhaps some people collect the fakes because their children want them and don't care whether they have a $1 phoenix or a $300 phoenix because they can't tell the difference? Children I hear you say? Lego is for children?

Lego could stop the fakes by making products cheaper, or atleast on parity with cheaper markets, by re-releasing old sets or even on-demand for a small extra fee and by stop all limited editions, time-limited is fine I guess.

Kevin_Hyatt

andhe said:

^There's a seller I often see at a local market selling framed 'lego' figures. I was suspicious when they had rarer Marvel/DC figs, but even more suspicions when I saw a Christo custom fig in a frame, sold for less than the price of the original fig.

I've seen that same person selling on the show circuit.

augen

I also don't mind clones, although I wouldn't buy them. I don't like fakes, but I also agree with @CCC that it's TLG's responsibility to stop them. There are two main problems for me associated with the fakes being sold on eBay. The sellers are either directly or indirectly passing off their products as Lego by association, using theme names and advertising their products in the Lego category. The other problem for me is more of an annoyance and that's how the sellers are manipulating search results, so I see their products when I don't want to. I accidentally did buy one despite being aware of the increase in fakes around and being cautious, so it just shows how easy it is to mistakenly buy what you believe is genuine Lego.

CCC

Greendude said:

Lego could stop the fakes by making products cheaper, or atleast on parity with cheaper markets, by re-releasing old sets or even on-demand for a small extra fee and by stop all limited editions, time-limited is fine I guess.

Who should pay for all the design and development costs? If Lego had to make things cheaper, to be on par with the fakers, then quality would take a big hit. As for stopping all limited editions, would you really want them to not exist at all? An extension of that is to just stop releasing anything new and licensed. Maybe just have bucket sets. That'll stop the fakers copying licensed items.

Even if every Lego minifig was $2, there would still be fakes.

andhe

Greendude said:

perhaps some people collect the fakes because their children want them and don't care whether they have a $1 phoenix or a $300 phoenix because they can't tell the difference? Children I hear you say? Lego is for children?

My main concern would be protecting the children. Official Lego goes through stringent safety checks regarding plastics used and construction of figs etc. I doubt the fakes follow the same health and safety checks, exposing children to potentially dangerous plastics (I don't know this for a fact).

Greendude

CCC said:

Greendude said:

Lego could stop the fakes by making products cheaper, or atleast on parity with cheaper markets, by re-releasing old sets or even on-demand for a small extra fee and by stop all limited editions, time-limited is fine I guess.

Who should pay for all the design and development costs? If Lego had to make things cheaper, to be on par with the fakers, then quality would take a big hit. As for stopping all limited editions, would you really want them to not exist at all? An extension of that is to just stop releasing anything new and licensed. Maybe just have bucket sets. That'll stop the fakers copying licensed items.

Even if every Lego minifig was $2, there would still be fakes.

What design and development costs? For a start, the R&D department needs cutting. I watched one of those 'How is it made' things about Lego and they had a tour of a police station and weapons and equipment etc, then produced a set pretty much the same as they have been producing for years. They had a modeller make an oversized model of a police dog which went through extensive research to end up with a bit of plastic with very little detail and essentially the same as other dogs they'd produced. The obvious waste at TLG is being passed on to consumers. The Ideas project shows how little resources you need to design Lego. The meat and potatoes of Lego sets are just slightly updated versions of older sets. There's a million ways to cut the price of Lego without effecting the quality of the product and R&D is just one of them.

As for limited editions, what difference does it make if they don't exist if 99.9% of people can't afford them or even get hold of one. I'm not saying don't make Phoenix at all, I'm saying make them available to everyone that wants one. Limited editions practically force people to find alternatives.

$2 minifigs would certainly stop the fakes btw. Why buy a fake if the original is the same price? Why buy off ebay, where fakes live, if the genuine lego is readily available and affordable at high street shops and online sites such as Amazon? Counterfeit lego would probably still exist but they'd have vastly reduced customers because people wouldn't be forced to take risks on eBay.

Greendude

andhe said:

Greendude said:

perhaps some people collect the fakes because their children want them and don't care whether they have a $1 phoenix or a $300 phoenix because they can't tell the difference? Children I hear you say? Lego is for children?

My main concern would be protecting the children. Official Lego goes through stringent safety checks regarding plastics used and construction of figs etc. I doubt the fakes follow the same health and safety checks, exposing children to potentially dangerous plastics (I don't know this for a fact).

I agree that could be a concern but perhaps the children that had lego in their mouths shouldn't have lego at all. Children should have outgrown that habit, or taught not to, by the time they are old enough to play with lego. I would be worried more about choking than the materials used, after all generations of children had all manner of toxic playthings in years gone by before such things became topical. Either way I do accept your point.

Personally I have my child's real lego and fake lego separated. Not for safety reasons but simply because they aren't the same product and I don't want anything getting mixed up.

CCC

Greendude said:

What design and development costs? For a start, the R&D department needs cutting. I watched one of those 'How is it made' things about Lego and they had a tour of a police station and weapons and equipment etc, then produced a set pretty much the same as they have been producing for years. They had a modeller make an oversized model of a police dog which went through extensive research to end up with a bit of plastic with very little detail and essentially the same as other dogs they'd produced. The obvious waste at TLG is being passed on to consumers. The Ideas project shows how little resources you need to design Lego. The meat and potatoes of Lego sets are just slightly updated versions of older sets. There's a million ways to cut the price of Lego without effecting the quality of the product and R&D is just one of them.

So you're saying you don't want any new parts at all? There have been many new parts in last the ten years, would you have preferred it if lego just stopped doing any design work ten years ago, and continually recycled the previous sets?

There are also many new set designs out. Sure the staple of city may be fire and police stations, but even they change.

Minifig prints also need designing, as do new parts (mainly headgear) for them. The graphic design, although apparently simple, is not free. If you want to see some bad design, there are loads of crap customs on flickr. Occasionally some good ones but a whole load of crap hurriedly drawn with a sharpie, even more so when it comes to sculpted parts.

Greendude said:

As for limited editions, what difference does it make if they don't exist if 99.9% of people can't afford them or even get hold of one. I'm not saying don't make Phoenix at all, I'm saying make them available to everyone that wants one. Limited editions practically force people to find alternatives.

Limited editions get people to attend events. Who knows, lego may release a Phoenix at some stage in a regular set. They are doing it with Green Lantern. They did it with Superman, most SW exclusives, Azog, Bilbo, Bard, ...

The idea that 99.9% of people cannot afford a particular item as a reason for not making it is an interesting one. How many people worldwide can afford, for example, the new Sand Crawler set? I reckon more than 99.9% of the population would say that they could not afford it. Is the fact that most of the population says they cannot afford something a reason not to produce a luxury high priced item? Should the half a million people (or whatever the number is) not be allowed the set, because 999 out of every 1000 people say that it is too expensive?

I also reckon many lego collectors can afford $500 for a minifig. They just choose to spend that $500 on something else, probably more lego.

Greendude said:

$2 minifigs would certainly stop the fakes btw. Why buy a fake if the original is the same price? Why buy off ebay, where fakes live, if the genuine lego is readily available and affordable at high street shops and online sites such as Amazon? Counterfeit lego would probably still exist but they'd have vastly reduced customers because people wouldn't be forced to take risks on eBay.

Because the fakes will always be cheaper, as there are little to no development costs, no safety test costs, no licensing costs, little rental costs compared to high street, little staff costs, no advertising costs. If a lego minifig was $2, then some people would still prefer to buy two fakes at $2 and have twice as many (or pay half as much).

Bosstone100

You can absorb chemicals through your skin. It's not just about young children putting bricks in their mouths.

Greendude

CCC said:

Greendude said:

What design and development costs? For a start, the R&D department needs cutting. I watched one of those 'How is it made' things about Lego and they had a tour of a police station and weapons and equipment etc, then produced a set pretty much the same as they have been producing for years. They had a modeller make an oversized model of a police dog which went through extensive research to end up with a bit of plastic with very little detail and essentially the same as other dogs they'd produced. The obvious waste at TLG is being passed on to consumers. The Ideas project shows how little resources you need to design Lego. The meat and potatoes of Lego sets are just slightly updated versions of older sets. There's a million ways to cut the price of Lego without effecting the quality of the product and R&D is just one of them.

So you're saying you don't want any new parts at all? There have been many new parts in last the ten years, would you have preferred it if lego just stopped doing any design work ten years ago, and continually recycled the previous sets?

There are also many new set designs out. Sure the staple of city may be fire and police stations, but even they change.

Minifig prints also need designing, as do new parts (mainly headgear) for them. The graphic design, although apparently simple, is not free. If you want to see some bad design, there are loads of crap customs on flickr. Occasionally some good ones but a whole load of crap hurriedly drawn with a sharpie, even more so when it comes to sculpted parts.

Greendude said:

As for limited editions, what difference does it make if they don't exist if 99.9% of people can't afford them or even get hold of one. I'm not saying don't make Phoenix at all, I'm saying make them available to everyone that wants one. Limited editions practically force people to find alternatives.

Limited editions get people to attend events. Who knows, lego may release a Phoenix at some stage in a regular set. They are doing it with Green Lantern. They did it with Superman, most SW exclusives, Azog, Bilbo, Bard, ...

The idea that 99.9% of people cannot afford a particular item as a reason for not making it is an interesting one. How many people worldwide can afford, for example, the new Sand Crawler set? I reckon more than 99.9% of the population would say that they could not afford it. Is the fact that most of the population says they cannot afford something a reason not to produce a luxury high priced item? Should the half a million people (or whatever the number is) not be allowed the set, because 999 out of every 1000 people say that it is too expensive?

I also reckon many lego collectors can afford $500 for a minifig. They just choose to spend that $500 on something else, probably more lego.

Greendude said:

$2 minifigs would certainly stop the fakes btw. Why buy a fake if the original is the same price? Why buy off ebay, where fakes live, if the genuine lego is readily available and affordable at high street shops and online sites such as Amazon? Counterfeit lego would probably still exist but they'd have vastly reduced customers because people wouldn't be forced to take risks on eBay.

Because the fakes will always be cheaper, as there are little to no development costs, no safety test costs, no licensing costs, little rental costs compared to high street, little staff costs, no advertising costs. If a lego minifig was $2, then some people would still prefer to buy two fakes at $2 and have twice as many (or pay half as much).

I didn't mean cut out R&D, simply that it should...never mind, cba...everything is perfect.

Bricktick

stumbled across this listing. Replica CMF series 1! Does state there custom, but still could cause disappointment watered into the market. Also have seen simpsons, lego movie and tmnt counterfeits
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201248006650?_trksid=p11002.c100206.m2375&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20140409141113&meid=3039c71cd5d74fb199af60f39ea3b7bb&pid=100206&prg=20140409141113&rk=5&rkt=12&sd=181624284878&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:GB:3160

andhe

Yes it appears 'they' (a broad term for these counterfeiters) are expanding from licensed figured (LotR, Superheroes and the like) to TLG's own lines - Chima, CMF, Castle and most recently Ultra Agents. All packed up in the same little boxes with a fig and a small stand, and often a totally unrelated accessory.

BrickDancer

^That's the weird part to me, how much money can those minor league themes really bring back in for the counterfeit figs considering the legit ones are relatively cheap to start with. Doesn't even sound profitable enough from a time/labor view, but less so when you add in packaging and shipping costs. They'll be making pennies, yet it is enough to fuel them along.

77ncaachamps

The legit ones aren't what moms and dads and kids are after when they search eBay.

They are looking for the different, the unique, the simplest figure that can only be found in an expensive set.

And if you can sell cheap knockoffs to these audiences WITHOUT them having to purchase expensive sets, they'll buy the knockoffs all...day...long.

It's a tough position for Lego to be in: China and Asia are huge markets, and manufacturing costs are still cheap in China. Yet, factories in China mean a greater chance of molds, figures, etc. finding their way to the black markets, etc.

BrickDancer

I understand that for Custom SH, SDCC figs or SW, but was rather referring to the cheap originals like CMF Lego Movie figs which are basically RRP at the moment. Chima, Agents or Ninjago, why even bother making knock offs of these when they aren't fetching much on the aftermarket to begin with?

Kevin_Hyatt

Set of eight Chima figures off aliexpress, approx £6 delivered. Split from sets by scalpers, sorry resellers, and sold individually on eBay approx £4 per figure.
Ninjago set of eight mini figures £6 delivered from China. £3/4/5 each from eBay.

I can see why parents are buying these.

Also, if these Chinese back door of the LEGO factory sellers can make profit on eight minifig delivered round the world for £6 I think it shows something of the cost of manufacture. (Yes I know r&d, packaging, marketing yadda yadda before anyone starts).

CCC

I bought a set of eight superheroes for about £8, direct from China. Ordered first week of December, they arrived about 22nd, but I have only really just got the chance to look at them.

The quality is shocking. Shockingly good that is. None of the obvious signs of fakes - no angled feet, or sharper corners at the shoulders, no dodgy printing. Putting them side by side with genuine ones, they look as good. They look different, different enough so that someone in the know can spot the genuine one. As stand alone figs, they look fine. The heads are slightly too pale.

It is also interesting that printed ones (torso and legs) come assembled but not with the arms attached. If the legs are not printed, then the torso is not attached to the legs, and the legs are not even assembled. This suggests they print the torso and legs together, also meaning the print lines up very nicely across the two parts. This is better than Lego, as I often notice the print doesn't line up perfectly.

The parts that come with the figures are also ok. The clutch is stronger than Lego, possibly too strong. They feel / look a little shinier than Lego, but that may just be the lack of a logo breaking up the flat surfaces on them.

I'm quite impressed, they are way better than a year ago. Not impressed enough to mix the parts into my collection, but the figures are definitely good enough for display and play. Especially where they might get stolen.

margot

Crazy all of these fakes.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/hip-tutu/m.html?item=141461358505&hash=item20efc107a9&pt=US_Action_Figures&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

oldtodd33

@margot Wrong link?

margot

I don't think so, did you scroll down?

oldtodd33

No, I didn't scroll down. All I was seeing were sexy girl play mats, what ever those are. Sounds like I'm in the wrong category.

margot

What? It's lots of super hero minifigs and some littlest pet shop. That is so strange.

andhe

Link worked for. The concern is, the better the fakes get, the more likely they are going to traded/sold on by unsuspecting (or dishonest) ebay sellers, or even on bricklink and other lego sites.

And the better quality they get they more likely people are going to spend their money on these than the official stuff given the option (£10 for one fig or £10 for 6... it's probably a straightforward decision for the unsuspecting parent).

I wonder if TLG are even trying to nip it in the bud?

CCC

andhe said:

Link worked for. The concern is, the better the fakes get, the more likely they are going to traded/sold on by unsuspecting (or dishonest) ebay sellers, or even on bricklink and other lego sites.

Yeah, they are likely to be sold on by "second generation" sellers (ones that thought they were buying lego) on ebay. I reckon sellers that know they are selling fakes will continue to list them in the lego category as customs, so they always have the description to fall back on if/when a buyer complains.

andhe said:

And the better quality they get they more likely people are going to spend their money on these than the official stuff given the option (£10 for one fig or £10 for 6... it's probably a straightforward decision for the unsuspecting parent).

Plus the fakes are sold individually / groups of minifigs only, whereas prices of originals are often linked to the price of the set(s) they come in.

andhe said:

I wonder if TLG are even trying to nip it in the bud?

I don't think they are. And it is probably too late now.

Bobbtom

augen said:

Looks like the Chinese counterfeiters are expanding their range, which is hardly surprising.

As someone that buys quite a bit of Lego from eBay, I am concerned by the recent increase in counterfeit Lego being offered on there, mainly as it's clogging up searches as it mentions Lego in the description.

It looks like stormtroopers are next on the counterfeiters' lists.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-X-Star-Wars-Storm-troopers-Clone-Troopers-mini-figures-like-lego-DUE-IN-JAN-/291317759566?pt=UK_Construction_Toys_Kits&hash=item43d3e43e4e

How could you tell these are fake purely by the pictures?

theLEGOman

"they are the same size/ scale as Lego"

CCC

Yes, also notice they don't use lego in the title. So if someone complains they are fake then they will say that they never sold them as lego.

andhe

The plastic is also a milky white which differentiates them from an official figure (if you know what to look for).

jasor

http://www.amazon.com/Minifigures-Guardians-Galaxy-Charles-DODOMO/dp/B00QNSSOVU/ref=pd_sim_sbs_t_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=09HXFB1M1Z9AXGFY089Q

There are tons of these that now say 'Currently Unavailable' on Amazon. TLG fighting back?

oldtodd33

I'll bet DC complained about the "by DC" description. I have also seen custom minifigures listed on Amazon described as "by Lego" when they clearly aren't.

GIR3691

Has anyone bought the transparent Stormtroopers that have been floating around eBay? Kind of neat.

CCC

Lord of the Simpsons ...


I love the idea of Marge hoovering the floors of Orthanc.

Shib

I wondered who kept orthanc so clean.

ACWWGal2011

I think i have a good response for all the bootleg haters out there:

If you want to be all purist and spend big bucks on the real deal, then knock yourself out. But some of us aren't blessed with the ability to produce hundred dollar bills out of thin air so we have to save money when we can.

Would it be nice for me to own a set of genuine lego series 1 figures? Sure! It'd be awesome to hold in my hands the most epic wave of them all but i don't have 170+ bucks for a complete set so i had to go bootleg. I just bought a set yesterday from ebay for a whopping 12 bucks and a set of 6 zombie city work custom figures for 3.25. A total that is about HALF the going price of ONE official lego zombie

ACWWGal2011

I think i have a good response for all the bootleg haters out there:

If you want to be all purist and spend big bucks on the real deal, then knock yourself out. But some of us aren't blessed with the ability to produce hundred dollar bills out of thin air so we have to save money when we can.

Would it be nice for me to own a set of genuine lego series 1 figures? Sure! It'd be awesome to hold in my hands the most epic wave of them all but i don't have 170+ bucks for a complete set so i had to go bootleg. I just bought a set yesterday from ebay for a whopping 12 bucks and a set of 6 zombie city work custom figures for 3.25. A total that is about HALF the going price of ONE official lego zombie

CCC

ACWWGal2011 said:

I think i have a good response for all the bootleg haters out there: If you want to be all purist and spend big bucks on the real deal, then knock yourself out. But some of us aren't blessed with the ability to produce hundred dollar bills out of thin air so we have to save money when we can. Would it be nice for me to own a set of genuine lego series 1 figures? Sure! It'd be awesome to hold in my hands the most epic wave of them all but i don't have 170+ bucks for a complete set so i had to go bootleg. I just bought a set yesterday from ebay for a whopping 12 bucks and a set of 6 zombie city work custom figures for 3.25. A total that is about HALF the going price of ONE official lego zombie

That's fine. If you are happy with fakes, then buy fakes. So long as you don't sell them on as part of a lego collection then no-one else will care.

I say that as someone who also owns some fakes. Well not me, but my kids. I got fed up with them losing expensive SH figures, so gave them the equivalent bootlegs. The originals are packed away and they can have them when they stop burying lego in the sand-pit.

Kevin_Hyatt

I too have bought loads of cheap non-LEGO minifigs, mainly superheroes, for the younger kids to play with. They play with them, smash them up and mix and match the parts without me worrying about having wasted hundreds of pounds.

ACWWGal2011

"That's fine. If you are happy with fakes, then buy fakes. So long as you don't sell them on as part of a lego collection then no-one else will care."

I won't. The bootleg Figures purchased would be ones I want so i'd keep them. The only outgoing parts from my collection recently were 2 clear outs of lego parts/figures/instructions I no longer needed and I have a third small clear out of stuff I missed last time lining up so I can trade for a couple vintage sets next time I catch him at the flea market. If I have outgoing clone brand stuff(very rare, usually not compatible with legos), it is put in a bag and when I get enough, I put it in the helping hands bag.

Sethro3

Main bootleg I purchased were things LEGO themselves haven't produced. If LEGO were to produce them, then I wouldn't go bootleg. I am purist, but I like having a neat collection too.

I have no interest in selling them as LEGO.

But I agree completely with the price difference. Buying 20 Iron man armors bootleg vs trying to afford all of them (IF LEGO were to produce them) would be a huge difference.

MrJ_NY

Blatant theft of the Friends line
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-12-sets-Friends-Series-building-toys-all-new-in-original-bags-no-boxes-/261942303409?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cfcfa5ab1

ZooMotorPool

Local online sellers here always refer every building brick toys as "LEGO" like "Lego Sluban" or "Lego Englighten" just like the way people refer to sunglasses as "ray bans". The brand itself become the popular term for the object. It is common in Europe and their ex-colonies to do this. It could be either simple innocent mistake or blatant attempt at fooling the customers.

As for the local sellers, I view it as common ignorance. Even big media companies here still randomly steal videos from YouTube and put it into their channel crediting YouTube by putting "Courtesy of Youtube" somewhere in the bottom corner of the video instead of the actual creator. Nobody understands intellectual property rights nor copyright laws, even major companies with a lot of cash and team of legal advisers. Even free stuffs have terms of usage, even if they are being showcased in a website. It seems that many still doesn't understand this despite their exposure to the world.

Norlego

To me this is easy, "Lego" is a brand name, while "lego" is a term used for all sorts of plastic building blocks. There seem to be many these days.

I dislike Star and other brands which use a similiar font to Lego, as it makes sorting more time consuming. But to stop people using the term "lego" for anthing that looks like "Lego" is not going to sink in with people.

For some reason, "Duplo" bricks are called Mega Bloks... So Lego have lost that battle it seems.

77ncaachamps

margot said:

Crazy all of these fakes. http://www.ebay.com/sch/hip-tutu/m.html?item=141461358505&hash=item20efc107a9&pt=US_Action_Figures&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

Clicked on some of the auction items the seller had sold.

Saw this feedback:
"Do not buy from this seller! They all have misprints on figures and are Rude!

oldtodd33

^^^  I love how the seller put a water mark on their pictures so no one could steal them.   How ironic.

CCC

^^^ LEGO is the brand name, but typing lego is often easier. Although autocorrect may change that to Lego.

CCC

andhe said:

Taking a slightly different slant... but I didn't know where else to post it without starting a new thread. How can Chinese sellers sell (fake) figs for £2 and ship to the UK for free? Surely it costs more than that to post it, so what's the catch? If it was some dodgy website I presume that they were just harvesting credit card details, but as it's on ebay is it just to boost their sellers ratings? Seems an expensive way to go about it, unless international shipping really is that cheap from China. Any suggestions??

So after a long time I can answer that.

I recently placed an order through aliexpress for a part for my SJCAM (a very fine Chinese knock off of the gopro camera) and it cost 3p including shipping. The seller contacted me and asked if I would mind adding some extra items to the order, otherwise they would lose money on it. They asked if I could make the order up to the equivalent value of 50c (USD) as that is what it costs for them to send each order. So yes, it seems they are sending orders equivalent to our large letters (74p second class within the UK) half way around the world for about 30p.