What makes it MISB?

piratemania7

And apologies ahead of time if this has been discussed elsewhere I did a quick search and didn't find anything but what exactly is the criteria on this and let's say I order something now and get the free Xmas set am I allowed to take that and the receipt out of the box and it's still MISB or not? Any clarification is very much appreciated.

Bandit

Most of us here keep all our sets sealed and never opened in the shipping boxes they come in, never to see the light of day. They don't call it Mint In Shipping Box for nothing...

CCC

There isn't an exact definition of MISB.

GIR3691

I thought it meant "Mint In Sealed Box."

CCC

But what does that mean?

Specifically, what does it mean about the condition of the box?

leego76

To me the box is mint (no dings, no scratches, no stickers, etc) and still factory sealed. Nothing to do with shipping boxes as to me you can still pick up a MISB set off the shelf from the shop. Though chances vary significantly from shop to shop (argos, you've got no chance!).

If I'm selling though I would rather use BNISB as people clearly have different MINT definitions as alluded to previously.

CCC

That is the problem. You can have a heavily dented but sealed box and technically the set is still mint in sealed box.

jdylak

Bandit said:

Most of us here keep all our sets sealed and never opened in the shipping boxes they come in, never to see the light of day. They don't call it Mint In Shipping Box for nothing...

But are you not afraid that box might get damaged? You have to put THAT box into another box, and so on. A set like the Cavalry builder set should end up packed in a refrigerator box.

jdylak

Wouldn't, by the wording, mean that the contents are mint and in a sealed box? If the box has a sticker on it or what not it is still a MISB. It is still sealed and the contents are mint.

Then again, how do you know the contents are mint unless you open the box? The it will not be MISB.

Serenity now...

dougts

oh man I do not want to get into this debate again...

Open the shipping box, you'll be fine. you can always immediately reseal it if you are going for double protection. That isn't going to affect your value really at all

monkey_roo

In my experience MISB simply refers to the fact that the box the item is in remains factory sealed. Within that definition there are then quality grades that deal with the condition of the box separately. So you can get a C10 MISB, which would be perfect, down to C1, which means the box is all but a right off. The C grading scale is widely used in other collecting areas for boxed and carded items such as action figures etc. I have seen a few people try applying it to lego boxes but not very often.

vitreolum

CCC said:

That is the problem. You can have a heavily dented but sealed box and technically the set is still mint in sealed box.

That is usually referred to as NIB (new in box). In case of MISB, it's obvious the contents are new, the mint part refers to the condition of the box.

Keeping it in the shipping box as well seems too much already.

monkey_roo

^ it really isn't that obvious. MISB means Mint in Sealed Box, the expression phrasing referring to the item inside, I.e. the item is mint in a sealed box. If it refered to the box it would be SIMB, Sealed in a Mint Box, therefore referencing the state of the box not the item inside. But yes once the box seals have been broken you get NIB or simply MIB and anything Inbetween. I spent years getting my head around it all when I started out collection action figures, it is a mine field and I still get tripped up after almost a decade of collecting and I don't think there will ever be a single consensus on what it really means and certainly there won't be a standard grading system, there are far to many and all are subjective.
Shipping boxes are a whole new level, I have seen people pay very silly money for toys still in factory shipping boxes.

vitreolum

monkey_roo said:

^ it really isn't that obvious.

By obvious I meant that it's obvious the contents are new/should be mint since we are talking about a sealed box, not what MISB meant. That's why I find it somewhat inappropriate to refer to the product in the box, you can't check whether that's mint or not since the box is sealed, especially in case of lego sets.

monkey_roo

schrodinger's Toy really :)

CCC

vitreolum said:

CCC said:

That is the problem. You can have a heavily dented but sealed box and technically the set is still mint in sealed box.

That is usually referred to as NIB (new in box). In case of MISB, it's obvious the contents are new, the mint part refers to the condition of the box.

Keeping it in the shipping box as well seems too much already.

It is not obvious at all that mint refers to the box. That would be NIMSB - new in mint sealed box or MIMSB - mint in mint sealed box.

NIB to me (in lego terms) means the box has been opened, but the contents not used. It doesn't imply the box is sealed, as otherwise it would be described MISB.

Which is why way up there I said there is no exact definition. There are many different definitions of the same thing in use.

khmellymel

I always viewed the box as part of the contents, therefore, MISB would include the box being mint.

Eep, will really have to watch those eBay listings now!

vitreolum

CCC said:

MIMSB - mint in mint sealed box.

But this is just my point, it's pretty redundant (and it sounds quite silly really) to refer to the contents as mint in case of a sealed box. Not only is it made obvious by the fact that it's sealed, but you can't even guarantee it (in case of lego parts can be missing, damaged, dented, scratched, wrong mold, etc. Not to mention instructions and sticker sheets that are usually folded badly). Everyone knows what to expect to find inside a sealed lego box, it's the box condition that's the uknown, so to speak.

CCC

vitreolum said:

CCC said:

MIMSB - mint in mint sealed box.

Everyone knows what to expect to find inside a sealed lego box, it's the box condition that's the uknown, so to speak.

Many people are not buying for the box though, they are buying for the set. Granted, many here will be buying for the box, but look at the language used here. Many people actually describe the box condition and any faults no matter how minor, rather than just saying mint box. There is a big gulf between New in Box and Sealed Mint Box. I somehow doubt most boxes are mint, even if described as such.

And also remember - there have been cases of people opening sets, putting parts into a resealable bag and describing it as MISB , meaning mint in sealed bag. Which is a correct description of what they are selling. Now it is not manufacturer sealed, but it is a sealed bag so they are not necessarily wrong. Which is why it is always down to the buyer to determine what a seller means by any acronym they use, and preferable ask for photos if none are shown. I have purchased CMF on BL listed as "new,complete" and also "MISB" in the description, and they have come in a resealable plastic bag. It doesn't bother me, as I am a set opener and the seller is technically correct, as they have not used the "new, sealed" option when listing.

legofanfromleeds

GIR3691 said:

I thought it meant "Mint In Sealed Box."

Thats my thought too...if its still in its shipping box then shouldn't that be misbisb lol

weaselking

Not to add another acronym, but a pristine sealed box is also covered by MIMB. It means 'mint in mint box'. That implies it is still factory sealed.

I used to collect toys, and there are a few other variations. MINMB (near mint box) being one of the more common ones. Of course, near mint has it's own ranges of acceptability in the different areas of collecting.

But to go back to the above, MISB merely means the box is sealed and contents factory original. It contains no description of the box itself.

vitreolum

^^^ People that are not buying for the box needn't bother with acronyms since the mention of sealed is all they need.

Concerning what you're saying about minifigs, it all depends on what is stated in condition. On BL for example if it's stated as new/complete and described as misb it needn't be in factory sealed bag, but if it's stated as new/sealed then it's not ok for it to be resealed.

^ MIMB does not really suggest it's sealed. Mint means it's in pristine condition, doesn't have anything to do with it being sealed. An opened set can be mint as can be an empty box.

CCC

vitreolum said:

^ MIMB does not really suggest it's sealed. Mint means it's in pristine condition, doesn't have anything to do with it being sealed. An opened set can be mint as can be an empty box.

I disagree with that. A mint box usually has glued / taped seals. If they have been undone, no matter how carefully, it is not mint as it is not in its correct state. Even if you open a box carefully and reglue it, it is not mint.

Again, different interpretations of what things mean.

CCC

vitreolum said:

^^^ People that are not buying for the box needn't bother with acronyms since the mention of sealed is all they need.

Concerning what you're saying about minifigs, it all depends on what is stated in condition. On BL for example if it's stated as new/complete and described as misb it needn't be in factory sealed bag, but if it's stated as new/sealed then it's not ok for it to be resealed.

Factory sealed. Sealed to some people means opened then resealed.

As indicated in the bold.

vitreolum

^^ If someone is selling an empty open box, that can't be left to interpretation. It's obvious the box had to be open to get the contents out, so being factory glued is out of the question unless you have some ghost lego inside. The box condition from there on can be described as mint.

Same goes for a built set, it can be described as mint, but it's clearly not sealed.

^

Yes, but if it's marked as new/sealed, it's clearly stated by bl it's meant for factory sealed sets. That's why resealed must be marked as new/complete. So this is not left open to interpretation.

Same goes for ebay which specifies it needs to be unopened, something a resealed item cannot be.

monkey_roo

I would say Lego is relatively new to this sort of thing. I only got back into Lego around 2007 and even back then I don't recall too much talk of mint this or sealed that, even on Evilbay Lego was mostly just sold as Lego. However in the action figure world, which is where this mainly comes from there are years of history behind this stuff. Different groups tend to use different interpretations but all I can say as a Star Wars figure collector for longer than i care to admit the standards tend to be:

MISB - Mint in sealed box = meaning the item is presumed in perfect factory new condition inside a sealed box (Of course as so correctly pointed out that is a paradox as it can neither be proved or disproved without opening the box and therefore no longer being MISB)

MIB - Mint in box = as above but the box has been opened and the quality of the toy can be verified. This also means no stickers applied and all documents present and correct

Boxed (sometimes New in Box) = this is normally a toy in any sort of condition with its box, a full description of the quality of the toy would usually come with this.

MOC - Mint on Card = this covers a factory sealed bubble on a card with a perfect action figure inside

None of these refer to the visible quality of the packaging, that is covered by the C rating (Condition), the recognised standard is C1 - C10, with one being rubbish and 10 being perfect.

So you could get a MISB C4 toy, which is to say the item is still factory sealed and presumed perfect but the box has taken a beating or MISB C10, perfect.

In the world of SW collecting both together give you the assessment of quality.

And that is before you open the AFA, UKG or Ugrade can of worms.

But this is only one possible definition used; I have seen other collecting groups use others

CCC

vitreolum said:

Yes, but if it's marked as new/sealed, it's clearly stated by bl it's meant for factory sealed sets. That's why resealed must be marked as new/complete. So this is not left open to interpretation.

If a seller lists a set as new/complete and also then says MISB in the description then it is open to interpretation.

- It could arrive in a factory sealed box, and they have wrongly used new/complete instead of new/sealed
- It could arrive in a resealed box, and they have used MISB to mean mint in sealed box, but have resealed the box themselves

vitreolum

In case of new/complete I always assume it's not factory sealed. It can also be guessed if it's a mistake based on the seller's experience and his inventory.

Still, there's an easy solution for all this: just ask the seller. :))

CCC

Yes, which is exactly the problem. MISB is open to interpretation, and its meaning varies from person to person, eventually rendering it meaningless. It could be anything from mint set in mint box that has never been opened, through to new and unopened bags inside an opened but resealed box. Possibly even wider still.

piratemania7

ummm, good morning to all here in the U.S. and I guess...thanks for the feedback above? Haha, just kidding. Great to know so many knowledgable people are willing to post good info, this is yet again, what makes these forums so valuable @huw

chromedigi

This whole discussion very much reminds me of record collecting, where a standard eventually evolved of independently grading the sleeves and the discs. In that world, SS, meaning "still sealed," though theoretically desirable, is also suspect, due to the relative ease of slimy operators simply re-shrink-wrapping bad product, not unlike the dog food fiasco. Collectors of all sorts face the same problems over and over again: for book collectors, for example, it's grading the dust jacket and the book itself. A newer hobby, such as LEGO, could do well to learn from the older, more established ones. I would heartily recommend looking to the record collecting model as a solution, as record collectors are every bit as obsessive and geeky as any AFOL, and have therefore evolved a detailed and easily-imitated solution to this age-old problem.

As a postscript, the shipping box solution is laughable. This is also as easily imitated and therefore defeated by a huckster as box tape, or shrink wrap on a record. Maybe it just hasn't happened yet.

CCC

The problem is that lego is different to records, or stamps, or baseball cards, or beanie babies, etc.

I don't collect records, so I don't know how many people buy them as investment pieces never to be played, just stored and later sold or as collectables only for the outer sleeve to be looked at and never opened.

From the grading guide you linked to, it seems not that frequent.

chromedigi

Actually, those people exist, too. More than you might realize. Also, the habit of buying multiples.

But to break it down, I have two main points:
1. Independently grade the packaging and the contents.
2. Have a useful grading scale for each.

And one ancillary: Beware "sealed" product, as scammers can defeat that protection.

chromedigi

.

chromedigi said:

Actually, those people exist, too. More than you might realize. Also, the habit of buying multiples.

And there are people who buy records (and books as well) for the cover art alone.

As a person who has some experience with a number of collections, I see the same patterns and problems over and over again. Never believe that your hobby is somehow different. It isn't, despite its idiosyncrasies.

CCC

^ The last point devalues lego sets significantly though, as opened new sets are not as sought after as sealed new sets.

For used parts in a set, a grading scale is useful but very difficult to implement unless you examine each part and grade each part separately. I'd want to know what the condition of the expensive parts is, not what an average condition is.

vitreolum

Actually in this respect lego is not really different than any other collectable. Grading the quality is done the same way, no matter how the hobby is approached.

chromedigi

The proliferation of parts makes LEGO collecting resemble collecting board games. Inventory methods must be added to the mix, when dealing with opened product. In that world, the high goal is "unpunched," as many parts come on sprues, or perfed cardboard sheets. And sealed boxes may or may not exist, as a standard (some companies just don't seal their boxes). For us, the logical equivalent would be that the polybags inside the box are all present, and haven't been opened.

CCC

vitreolum said:

Actually in this respect lego is not really different than any other collectable. Grading the quality is done the same way, no matter how the hobby is approached.

A record with one 1cm scratch is very different to a lego set that is in excellent condition except for one part with a 1cm scratch.

Grading of those has to be approached in a different way.

vitreolum

Not really diffrent, in both cases you're basically looking for flaws.

The only complex part is grading an used set as a whole, how can you describe a set that has half the parts mint and half bitten and yellowed? You can't really make a standard here.

chromedigi

The solution is that you grade to the lower level. In other hobbies, people work to assemble higher-quality sets by sorting out parts such as these from several copies of the same set, acquiring mint boxes, and then producing a result that qualifies as saleable at the higher level, and selling the dross, if possible, at the lower level, or through non-collector channels, or as individual parts. Board game collectors often do one another the favor of swapping needed parts resulting from this process.

chromedigi

In the world of toy collecting, you find this process repeated with other collectible construction lines, such as the Kenner Girder & Panel sets from the 1960s, or old Gilbert Erector sets.

Crowkillers

MIMSB (Mint In Mint Sealed Box) is also a term used for toys to describe the box condition... MISB basically means that the product inside of the sealed box is mint...

CCC

chromedigi said:

The solution is that you grade to the lower level. In other hobbies, people work to assemble higher-quality sets by sorting out parts such as these from several copies of the same set, acquiring mint boxes, and then producing a result that qualifies as saleable at the higher level, and selling the dross, if possible, at the lower level, or through non-collector channels, or as individual parts. Board game collectors often do one another the favor of swapping needed parts resulting from this process.

Or, you go off the grading scale, and actually describe the set accurately stating all parts are in perfect condition except for 1 part that is scratched (or whatever the proportions are).

vitreolum

CCC said:

Or, you go off the grading scale, and actually describe the set accurately stating all parts are in perfect condition except for 1 part that is scratched (or whatever the proportions are).

I don't see many sellers willing to do that, especially in case of a set with 1000+ parts. Nor do I see many of them grading to the lower level for that matter...

chromedigi

Yes, a detailed description always beats only using a scale. Someone doing what you just described would of course say which part, and also describe the dent to the upper left rear corner of the box, possibly provide .jpgs of these things, and would get excellent marks in whatever reseller channel they were using.

Paperballpark

For what it's worth, I always took it to mean a mint, sealed box. If I were to buy a set advertised as MISB I'd expect the box to be pretty much perfect.

Fortunately I'm not really that bothered about the box condition, so long as it's still intact...

madforLEGO

I believe there was another thread that pretty much had this debate but it was some time ago, maybe since the birth of the forum.

sidersdd

Why hasn't the prof come out of hiding for one of his favorite topics here?

piratemania7

See for the longest time I thought it meant shipping box as well. Until someone in here righteously stated the truth that a great con artist could duplicate that and just put a perfect condition box inside another shipping box and VOILA. I guess ultimately thats what this gets at - its all based off of interpretation with an overall same end result. "a nearly perfect box sealed and intact".

legomatt

sidersdd said:

Why hasn't the prof come out of hiding for one of his favorite topics here?

Here you go.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc

Legoboy

Lol.

You only did that knowing he couldn't 'abuse' you anymore. ;-)