PPP and PPW

Vindic8ed

While reading the comments in the Land Rover announcement, alternative measurements for value was talked about (as it has been in the past).  I didn't look to see if anyone has done calculations for PPW and posted them here, but I decided to do some quick ones.  I liked the idea of using the average weight/price per piece as the value of the set.  I grabbed the entire modular range and came up with this:

Name	Released	Price	Weight (grams)	Pieces	PPW	PPP	PPW-PPP Average
Green Grocer	2008	149.99	3180	2335	0.047	0.064	0.056
Police Station	2021	199.99	4155	2903	0.048	0.069	0.059
Grand Emporium	2010	149.99	2903	2154	0.052	0.070	0.061
Fire Brigade	2009	149.99	2761	2215	0.054	0.068	0.061
Cafe Corner	2007	139.99	2591	2044	0.054	0.068	0.061
Pet Shop	2011	149.99	2820	2154	0.053	0.070	0.061
Palace Cinema	2013	149.99	2770	2170	0.054	0.069	0.062
Market Street	2007	89.99	1780	1236	0.051	0.073	0.062
Town Hall	2012	199.99	3825	2733	0.052	0.073	0.063
Parisan Restaurant	2014	159.99	2610	2449	0.061	0.065	0.063
Downtown Diner	2018	169.99	2800	2454	0.061	0.069	0.065
Detectives Office	2015	159.99	2624	2238	0.061	0.071	0.066
Brick Bank	2016	169.99	2745	2360	0.062	0.072	0.067
Jazz Club	2023	229.99	3870	2866	0.059	0.080	0.070
Assembly Square	2017	299.99	4666	3966	0.064	0.076	0.070
Botique Hotel	2022	229.99	3473	3037	0.066	0.076	0.071
Corner Garage	2019	199.99	3035	2545	0.066	0.079	0.072
Book Shop	2020	199.99	2932	2483	0.068	0.081	0.074
Modular Lego Store	2022	179.99	2440	2149	0.074	0.084	0.079
Modular Construction Site	2023	319.99	?	3371	?	0.095	?

Note 1: the weights are from Bricklink; I'm not sure if the weights are the plastic themselves or if they include the box/instructions/packaging material

Note 2: The table is sorted by the last column (PPW-PPP Average)

Vindic8ed

I know there are a lot of ways people have come up with to value a set.  PPP/PPW may still not be the best measurement of value, but I liked the suggestion of combining several metrics together.  By doing that we could come up with a universal way of comparing sets' values.

Huw

BrickLink weights are of the sealed box, used for shipping purposes. 25% of it is usually accounted for by the manual.

Brainslugged

Are those weights from Bricklink? I'd always wondered if the weights given are weight of the entire package (inc box, manual etc) or the weight of just the bricks.

Vindic8ed

Thanks Huw, that's good to know.  I have all the modulars; I'm thinking of weighing just the builds, but none of them are built atm...so it will take some time to do.  I'd also like to compare similarly priced sets to other themes to get a better dataset.

Would it be safe to assume that 30-35% of the sealed box weight does not contribute to the set?

560Heliport

@Vindic8ed I believe Bricklink's weights are for the boxed set: packaging, instructions, and parts, because the item's dimensions are listed below the weight, and they're clearly the box dimensions.
FWIW, PPP and PPW are meaningless for me. I assess the value of a set by how much I like the model, including minifigs, new/rare parts or colors, play features. This is entirely subjective, of course! 

iwybs

Bricklink has separate weights for the box and for the instructions. Subtract those and you'll be left with the weight of the parts and the plastic bags.

560Heliport

@iwybs Thank you, I didn't know that! I mostly use Bricklink just for the part inventories.

Vindic8ed

560Heliport said:

I assess the value of a set by how much I like the model.

As subjective as that is, that's honestly the best way to look at any set. However, I feel like it's a good idea to have a solid baseline of how far your money is going.

Vindic8ed

iwybs said:

Bricklink has separate weights for the box and for the instructions. Subtract those and you'll be left with the weight of the parts and the plastic bags.

That's cool, thank you!

Using the Jazz Club as an example, ~27% of the weight is the box/instructions. 

After thinking about it a little more, I'm hesitant to take those out of the calculation though as they contribute to the cost of the set.  It could be argued one way that they don't add value to the actual playability of the set; it could be argued the other way, that it helps a set retainis value.  Maybe include both, "Overall PPW" and "Brick PPW".

vizzitor

To compare each properly, you'd also have to account for inflation. Especially as somehow it's 16 years (sixteen!) since 2007, the earliest on the list.

ickis

vizzitor said:

To compare each properly, you'd also have to account for inflation. Especially as somehow it's 16 years (sixteen!) since 2007, the earliest on the list.

I forgot all about inflation.  That's a good point.  I still think both these metrics don't do much to account for premiums on complex parts and printed parts.

oldtodd33

vizzitor said:

To compare each properly, you'd also have to account for inflation. Especially as somehow it's 16 years (sixteen!) since 2007, the earliest on the list.

   No, the whole reason for the list is so you can see the inflation. For example, Green Grocer PPP is .064 and the latest Jazz Club is .080. If you adjust for inflation you would never see this. PPW is useless/pointless knowledge since it includes the weight of the box, manual and empty plastic bags which don't add anything of visual value to the actual set. 

560Heliport

oldtodd33 said:

vizzitor said:

To compare each properly, you'd also have to account for inflation. Especially as somehow it's 16 years (sixteen!) since 2007, the earliest on the list.

   No, the whole reason for the list is so you can see the inflation. For example, Green Grocer PPP is .064 and the latest Jazz Club is .080. If you adjust for inflation you would never see this. PPW is useless/pointless knowledge since it includes the weight of the box, manual and empty plastic bags which don't add anything of visual value to the actual set. 

No, if you don't adjust for inflation, then Green Grocer has the better PPP. But you can't buy Green Grocer new today for $149.99!

oldtodd33

560Heliport said:

oldtodd33 said:

vizzitor said:

To compare each properly, you'd also have to account for inflation. Especially as somehow it's 16 years (sixteen!) since 2007, the earliest on the list.

   No, the whole reason for the list is so you can see the inflation. For example, Green Grocer PPP is .064 and the latest Jazz Club is .080. If you adjust for inflation you would never see this. PPW is useless/pointless knowledge since it includes the weight of the box, manual and empty plastic bags which don't add anything of visual value to the actual set. 

No, if you don't adjust for inflation, then Green Grocer has the better PPP. But you can't buy Green Grocer new today for $149.99!

   Doesn't matter that I can't buy a new GG, I'm not looking to. The point is to see inflation and adjusting for it wipes that out, some call it disinformation. This isn't the US government.

Vindic8ed

ickis said:

I forgot all about inflation.  That's a good point.  I still think both these metrics don't do much to account for premiums on complex parts and printed parts.

I don't feel like the Modulars have very many complex and/or printed parts.  Most of the ones that have printed parts can be found in other sets.  One that immediately comes to mind is the sailboat tile.

Vindic8ed

oldtodd33 said:

PPW is useless/pointless knowledge since it includes the weight of the box, manual and empty plastic bags which don't add anything of visual value to the actual set. 

Calculating it out doesn't seem to be a huge issue though, since we have the weights of the box and manuals.  One example already mentioned is the Jazz Club.  Those two items account for ~27% of the weight; take out another 3-5% for the plastic bags and it should be relatively close to the actual weight of the pieces themselves.  I haven't had a chance to look at all the numbers but I should have some time to do it tomorrow.

Vindic8ed

560Heliport said:

No, if you don't adjust for inflation, then Green Grocer has the better PPP. But you can't buy Green Grocer new today for $149.99!

I will add inflation to the chart as an additional category so people can see the differences.  However, in the case of the Green Grocer, the PPP would be worse, since it's adjusted price today is $217.49 (not taking into account that it's not available): .094 PPP.

oldtodd33

Vindic8ed said:

560Heliport said:

No, if you don't adjust for inflation, then Green Grocer has the better PPP. But you can't buy Green Grocer new today for $149.99!

I will add inflation to the chart as an additional category so people can see the differences.  However, in the case of the Green Grocer, the PPP would be worse, since it's adjusted price today is $217.49 (not taking into account that it's not available): .094 PPP.

   That was my whole point. Adjusting for inflation lies about the price. If left alone it shows GG was cheaper which of course it was. Inflation has caused the price of each brick to increase by 1.6 cents not drop down 1.4 cents. That's the lie. Lies, damned lies and statistics. 

Brickchap

Thank you for posting this! I like this idea and agree combining measurements is a good way of getting an idea of price value. (as long as people don't treat it as the Word of God it's fine).

Personally I like Jangbricks 'Amount of Stuff That You Get', especially when judging play sets and sets aimed at kids. For example the 2015 Deep Sea Research Vessel I think it was called was excellent value. You got a floating ship with a crane, multiple submarines, a bunch of sea creatures, and a whole ship wreck (also with a gold story that could easily tie in to other themes like Police or Cargo). Compare that to other sets around $100 where you'd get a big police station for example but kids can't actually do all that much with it. (I would also mention if you have multiple children then play sets with lots of stuff are also often better value).

Another example would be the 2017 Airshow (2 jets plus a biplane plus a hangar and tug) for I believe it was around $70 compared to $150 for one giant plane that only fits 6 passengers (and doesnt even come with that many minifigs), too large to store easily or fit in an airport layout, large and bulky for a kid to fly around lots of prefabricated pieces so difficult to rebuild into something else.

Or that new backhoe set for $30 compared to the new Indiana Jones fighter plane chase. Naturally a child's interests will determine buying decisions, but a cool car and fighter plane that shoots stuff with 3 minifigs is much better value than just one backhoe with 1 minifig with various issues regarding how the bucket and rear drill work.

Vindic8ed

oldtodd33 said:

Vindic8ed said:

560Heliport said:

No, if you don't adjust for inflation, then Green Grocer has the better PPP. But you can't buy Green Grocer new today for $149.99!

I will add inflation to the chart as an additional category so people can see the differences.  However, in the case of the Green Grocer, the PPP would be worse, since it's adjusted price today is $217.49 (not taking into account that it's not available): .094 PPP.

   That was my whole point. Adjusting for inflation lies about the price. If left alone it shows GG was cheaper which of course it was. Inflation has caused the price of each brick to increase by 1.6 cents not drop down 1.4 cents. That's the lie. Lies, damned lies and statistics. 

Not adjusting for inflation also shows the outliers, and how arbitrary pricing can be.  One of the newer sets, the police station, appears to be one of the best deals.

oldtodd33

^ Why is Police station an outlier? At .069 each and the average price of a modular being .067 each over the years it's just above average. I did not include the last two modulars as they are not official Lego sets and the last set isn't finalized for pieces or price.

560Heliport

@Brickchap If you're going to compare sets, please get your facts straight. 
2016's #60103 Airport Air Show was $119.99 AU$, #60104 Airport Passenger Terminal was $149.99 and did include six minifigures. So $120 vs. $150, not $70 vs. $150.
This year's #60385 Construction Digger is $32.99 AU$ and includes two figures. #77012 Fighter Plane Chase is $49.99 nd includes three figures.

Brickchap

@560Heliport Okay so I confused the Yank price for the Aussie one. Airport Air Show is still much better value. Also, while yes Passenger Terminal does have 6 minifigs, that's all airport staff, the pilot, ground crew and passengers. You should get at least 5 regular civilian passengers. And the problems with the plane remain.

Okay and for 60385 and 77012 well how do the Yank prices compare?

Brickchap

@Vindic8ed Yeah Police Station is great value. Sadly Boutique Hotel, but particularly Jazz Club are terrible value. I mean, just look at Police Station ($300 AU) compared to Jazz Club ($350 AU). Police Station is one of the taller, more imposing modulars, while JC is one of the shortest. To my knowledge people were pretty happy with Police Station (aside from the absence of any form of police vehicle was is rather silly) whereas Jazz Club from what I've read and seen 99% of people find it to be very 'meh'/underwhelming/disappointing etc. It's interesting too that even more controversial modulars like Downtown Diner had lots of people who really liked it, or at least certain parts of it, whereas Jazz Club it's not that anyone is saying it's terrible but there doesn't seem to be much anyone really likes about it. Police Station had lots of fun details and wasn't really lacking anything, whereas Jazz Club the pizzeria is barely as detailed as a City or Friends set (some Friends sets actually outdo it) while the rest of the building is pretty lacking or underwhelming with detail.

560Heliport

@Brickchap #60385 is $19.99 and #77012 is $34.99. So #60385 is a slightly better value, relative to #77012, in the U.S. compared to Australia.
I dislike "price points"- it means compromises must be made to hit e.g. $19.99. The designers either have to add some little side build or omit something else to make the perceived value come in at $19.99. I'd much prefer it if all the $19.99 sets actually got priced at their "true" price: one might be $18.63, another $21.84. 

Vindic8ed

oldtodd33 said:

^ Why is Police station an outlier? At .069 each and the average price of a modular being .067 each over the years it's just above average. I did not include the last two modulars as they are not official Lego sets and the last set isn't finalized for pieces or price.

I was using the PPW/PPP calculation, not just the PPP.  I'll be posting the updated chart below, which deducts the weight of the box/instructions.

Vindic8ed

New chart:

Name	Price	PPP	PPW	TPPW	TPPW/PPP	PPW/PPP
Green Grocer	149.99	0.064	0.069	0.047	0.056	0.067
Police Station	199.99	0.069	0.066	0.048	0.059	0.068
Cafe Corner	139.99	0.068	0.067	0.054	0.061	0.068
Market Street	89.99	0.073	0.065	0.051	0.062	0.069
Grand Emporium	149.99	0.070	0.070	0.052	0.061	0.070
Town Hall	199.99	0.073	0.068	0.052	0.063	0.071
Fire Brigade	149.99	0.068	0.074	0.054	0.061	0.071
Pet Shop	149.99	0.070	0.072	0.053	0.062	0.071
Palace Cinema	149.99	0.069	0.073	0.054	0.062	0.071
Parisan Restaurant	159.99	0.065	0.083	0.061	0.063	0.074
Downtown Diner	169.99	0.069	0.085	0.061	0.065	0.077
Detectives Office	159.99	0.071	0.084	0.061	0.066	0.078
Brick Bank	169.99	0.072	0.083	0.062	0.067	0.078
Jazz Club	229.99	0.080	0.082	0.059	0.070	0.081
Assembly Square	299.99	0.076	0.087	0.064	0.070	0.082
Modular Lego Store	179.99	0.084	?	0.074	0.079	0.084
Botique Hotel	229.99	0.076	0.094	0.066	0.071	0.085
Corner Garage	199.99	0.079	0.092	0.066	0.073	0.086
Book Shop	199.99	0.081	0.092	0.068	0.075	0.087
Modular Construction Site	319.99	0.095	?	?	0.095	0.095
Average	184.99	0.074	0.070	0.055	0.067	0.076

Note1: Chart is sorted by PPW/PPP (last column)
Note2: TPPW = Total Price Per Weight (set, box, instructions) vs. PPW (just the set)

Notice that--for the most part--PPW and PPP are relatively close.  There are a few outliers, like Detective's Office and Brick Bank.

Vindic8ed

You're not able to sort the data from the chart here on the forums, but if you put it into Excel and sort by the different categories there are some interesting trends (again, with some outliers).

For example, taking the TPPW, the cheapest set has the lowest weight and the most expensive set has the highest weight:

Market Street

2007

89.99

1780

Assembly Square

2017

299.99

4666

Two of the outliers are:

Downtown Diner

2018

169.99

2800

Green Grocer

2008

149.99

3180

There are a couple changes when sorting by PPW but it's place in the chart is relatively consistent to TPPW (IE, Assembly Square is still the most and Market Street still the least).  I believe weight has a significant role to play in price point (at least in this data I've gathered for the modulars).

This does not take into account inflation, but I think that makes this even more interesting, because the prices have remained relatively the same (if not arguably low) if you are looking at the weight alone.  Sets that have more material cost more and sets that have less cost less).