[email protected] Girls category

margot

Wondering why [email protected] decided to intro a Girls category? Really a poor choice on their part and wonder how this got approved. No Star Wars, no airplanes, no technic... Who exactly gets to choose what girls like anyway?

Pitfall69

I don't know, but maybe they hired "The Waitresses". They seem to know what boys and girls like ;)

margot

Oh you...

dougts

I swear this isn't new - I think I saw that girls' category on there at least a year ago. I would bet they had parents asking for this type of feature.

That said - it's not meant to be a strict one-size-fits-all guideline. In the end, people should buy their girls what they like. But looking at the list, it seems like a pretty good default - Friends, Creator, Creator Expert, some Duplo and some basic brick packs.

(and yes, I have two girls. I'm not offended by this - I think it fits the mold of what 90%+ of girls would actually like. There are always exceptions of course, but such is life.)

chromedigi

(OT) Funny thing about The Waitresses: All that stuff that Patty Donahue sung was actually written by the guys in the band. "I Know What Boys Like" was written by Chris Butler. Ironic. Of course, he did know what boys like. But it was weird to use her like a sock puppet.

Anyway, @margot - you're right. As the father of a girl, I find this sort of thing annoying. I was recently in a Target, and there was a little girl around my own daughter's age complaining to her mom that all the games were "boy games," and where was the girl stuff?

My daughter will venture outside Friends, for the Creator houses, but rejects most of the rest as being "boy" stuff. My dream is for TLG to make a Technic sports car in Friends colors, that can seat a couple of minidolls with a pet in the back seat, so that kids who have developed attitudes like this can give themselves permission to engage with engineering principles.

Pitfall69

This subject has been discussed over and over in other threads. I will have to do some searching, but I think most recently it was about Minifigures.

margot

^This isn't about Friend's sets or sets made specifically for girls but about a girl's category. Who's to tell a girl what she should or shouldn't like? I don't see a Boys category?
It's annoying. (Where's the Star Wars? Where are the planes?)

Bumblepants

Pretty sure these are just search engine tags to help parents/grandparents who have no idea what is available and are just looking to find a present. If they know their little Suzie wants Star Wars or a bulldozer or whatever else they can search for that and get those hits. If however, they are looking to get their little girl a girly present, then the 'girl' tag will help them see what they are looking for.

chromedigi

@Margot - I agree completely with you. I am frustrated by what you're talking about, as well as the way kids limit themselves based on cosmetic differences, like the colors of plastics, or the style of the little plastic people in their playsets. I didn't express myself clearly, I'm afraid.

They're (sort of) two different things. TLG is probably being pragmatic and using the latter phenomenon to inform the former policies (like having retail partners place the Friends in a different aisle from the rest of their product). And it's working for them. Finally they're selling a decent amount to girls. But that doesn't make me feel any better about it, nor do I think you should. Plus, it's a chicken-and-egg problem: this is serving to further kids' self-limitation by (as you say) telling them what is supposed to be for them.

As a dad, I really, really would like to introduce my kid to the mind-expanding qualities of Technic, but I know my kid: I know that she won't bite unless the plastics are candy-colored. Sigh.

(I also know that she's resistant to anything that's conflict-based, which has made gaming with her a tricky proposition, as well. And unfortunately, a lot of the LEGO themes get categorized by little girls - like that kid in the Target store - as being "boy" because of that very thing.)

just2good

The Girls' Category has been around since at least 2010. They used to have some Toy Story in it, too.

tamamahm

As others have said, this has been around for a LONG time. This was before Friends even.

This is not new.

This category is not about limiting.
I have always felt this was more about giving gift ideas. Someone is clueless what to buy, they look in that category.
Sure, a girl can play with technic or other areas, but at the same time I am sure Lego has seen certain sets girls tend to gravitate to more... And for the person that is clueless about the kid they are buying for, this section gives a few ideas.

This category is no different than having a Friends line. Friends does not limit girls from buying other lines.

The issue for me is that often there simply aren't many lines that feature more thsn 1-2 female minifig types.

What is more irritating to me is that with the removal of the exclusive discount, it really hits sets that had a pretty even distribution of females/males.

margot

tamamahm said:

I have always felt this was more about giving gift ideas. Someone is clueless what to buy, they look in that category.

Yet there is no Boys category. Are people only clueless about what gifts to buy for girls? It's total BS to have a girl's category, sorry but it is limiting. You can get a Sydney Opera House for a girl but not a Ewok Village? It's not that there are only friend's and Duplo sets here, there are also a lot of Architect and buildings like Fire Brigade. Why does Lego need to decide what gifts should go to girls? Girls can't inform their grandparents what they want?

tamamahm

Chromedigi, my girls are like that with conflict for conflict sake.
They are actually okay with conflict, though, but there has to be a reason that furthers the story and be a story of interest.

This is a rehash of things I have said many times, but conflict in the HP theme was fine, but there were sets that were more than conflict/fights. There were details and female minifigs.

They stay clear of themes like TLR...
Train = Hogwarts express = want
Train= Constitution = no interest

I think really for them, it isn't about boy/girls or differentiating like that, but that so many themes are zero interest themes for them, or Lego's take on a them they have no interest in.. Playmobil Egyptian = want, Lego Egyptian= no interest)

When you add in minimal females and turns them off more.

andhe

margot said:

Yet there is no Boys category. Are people only clueless about what gifts to buy for girls? It's total BS to have a girl's category, sorry but it is limiting. You can get a Sydney Opera House for a girl but not a Ewok Village? It's not that there are only friend's and Duplo sets here, there are also a lot of Architect and buildings like Fire Brigade. Why does Lego need to decide what gifts should go to girls? Girls can't inform their grandparents what they want?

I think this is because the general perception is that lego is a boys toy.

This is obviously something TLG are trying to counter by creating more 'gateway' products that seem more 'girly', but obviously no-one is forced to buy from any certain section.

dougts

Anyone who goes looking to find something to be "offended" about will usually find it - just like the whole phony outrage during the Friends launch. It's a search tool for people who might not know what to get - pretty sure LEGO will happily sell an Ewok Village to a girl, so let's not blow this out of proportion.

dougts

margot said:

Who's to tell a girl what she should or shouldn't like?

Do you think that is the intent of this? I sure don't see it that way.

margot said:

I don't see a Boys category?

LEGO, for right or wrong, has been seen as a "boys" toy for the past few decades. They are now making an effort to appeal more to girls. Part of breaking into a new market segment is making your product catalog more accessible and less daunting to an unfamiliar newcomer. This is one simple yet probably effective tool to try and reduce the noise.

chromedigi

I can't speak for anyone else. I'm not "offended," just frustrated as a dad. And I'm not in any way among the anti-Friends contingent. I think they're actually pretty good sets overall, and my daughter enjoys building them. Which means she's building. Which I count as a good thing.

The reason I consider the lack of inroads to Technic for girls a lose is because playing with that sort of construction toy (when I was a kid, the Gilbert Erector sets filled this function) helps to foster an intuitive understanding of physics and engineering principles. Plus, it, in turn is a gateway to Mindstorms, and all the enrichment that goes with that. And there's no reason on earth to give girls the message, even if only implicitly and subtly, that science and technology is "for boys."

@tamamahm - Again, I can only talk about my girl's reaction to "conflict." And I'll try to be brief, so as to not derail this thread. In terms of gaming, conflict is built in, unless you're playing a "cooperative game," in that when one player wins, the other(s) lose. That's been hard for her to deal with, though she's come around a bit with Carcassonne, which she likes. But mostly, she's gravitated more to logic puzzles a la the Thinkfun, Smart Games, and Popular Playthings lines, because we can work on them together.

She's similarly not attracted to LOTR/Hobbit or any of the other story-based themes in the LEGO line. The Creator houses work for her because, in the final analysis, they're doll houses. Also, the common aspect of both Friends and Creator (houses) is that their microworlds are completely "friendly" and lacking in conflict. Even City is (as people point out repeatedly) something of a police state. She would probably have gone for the SpongeBob line, had I picked any up for her, and maybe the Pixar stuff...

chromedigi

^ Sometimes I microbuild little mutants, cyborgs and robots and introduce them to her Friends/Creator community. They are usually quickly removed and/or eradicated. And don't even think about mutating a minidoll!

dougts

chromedigi said:

The reason I consider the lack of inroads to Technic for girls a lose is because playing with that sort of construction toy (when I was a kid, the Gilbert Erector sets filled this function) helps to foster an intuitive understanding of physics and engineering principles. Plus, it, in turn is a gateway to Mindstorms, and all the enrichment that goes with that. And there's no reason on earth to give girls the message, even if only implicitly and subtly, that science and technology is "for boys."

I don't disagree with this desire - but what should LEGO reasonably do in regards to Technic? None of the sets have conflict-based themes or boy-centered characters in them. They are basically a selection of vehicles in fairly neutral colors. Perhaps the best course of action is to gather a bunch of Technic parts - removed from the boxes, instructions - and show your daughters how they can use these parts to create some really cool engineered contraptions, perhaps for their Friends figures. Add Friends-colored greebling and tiles, etc. to spruce up the colors. Start simple and come up with more advanced techniques as time passes. Perhaps at some point point them toward a Technic set or two and see what happens.

margot

dougts said:

LEGO, for right or wrong, has been seen as a "boys" toy for the past few decades.

I had no idea Lego was a boy's toy... But then, I didn't grow up in the age where girls could only wear pink, purple and dress up like princesses. Seriously, if you can't see how we are limiting girls today then I won't be able to open your eyes. I expect more from TLG.

chromedigi

Just look at the sets: Girls just don't want to play with trucks and such. No doubt there are exceptions, but anyway, my kid doesn't react enthusiastically to them. I've thought about trying to reconstruct some of the Technic cars with the (now uncommon) pastel pieces from a decade and a half ago, but that only gets you the beams. There are no candy-colored fairings to be had. Maybe I could pull off a redesign using white. But in my mind's eye, I can imagine a Friendified Technic sportscar, complete with all those teeny accessories, forging the missing gateway.

Also, maybe girls would be engaged by building a completely different set of machines. The Technic sets are wonderful, but they are all based on the kinds of toys that preschool boys play with in their sandboxes. And that marks them as "boy" to little girls in the final analysis.

dougts

margot said:

dougts said:

LEGO, for right or wrong, has been seen as a "boys" toy for the past few decades.

I had no idea Lego was a boy's toy... But then, I didn't grow up in the age where girls could only wear pink, purple and dress up like princesses. Seriously, if you can't see how we are limiting girls today then I won't be able to open your eyes. I expect more from TLG.

Who's limiting girls? Pretty sure I reinforce to mine all the time that they can get/do whatever they set their minds to do. No one can limit them if they don't allow it to happen to themselves. I'm pretty sure that in 2013 more girls have more opportunities and less limits than ever before. It sounds like your girls have a parent who is going to ensure that they reach for the stars - no matter what others say. I think they will be fine.

LEGO isn't trying to "limit girls", they are trying to provide a tiny tool that may or may not help someone find a suitable gift. Feel free to ignore it and click on the "Star Wars" theme instead. Honestly, this isn't a vast conspiracy to hold women back.

dougts

chromedigi said:

But in my mind's eye, I can imagine a Friendified Technic sportscar, complete with all those teeny accessories, forging the missing gateway.

So make it! take the core of some technic sports car, and fix it up with Friends-colored tiles, greebles, plates, seats, and accessories.

chromedigi said:

Also, maybe girls would be engaged by building a completely different set of machines. The Technic sets are wonderful, but they are all based on the kinds of toys that preschool boys play with in their sandboxes. And that marks them as "boy" to little girls in the final analysis.

I agree, but not sure it's fair to expect a toy company to combat gender preferences that children bring to the table before they arrive on the scene. Technic is already niche. Making a niche of a niche might not make for a good business case. But here's hoping they could come up with something that at least might have crossover appeal to both boys and girls and use it as a test case - a Ferris Wheel or something maybe.

chromedigi

I like the Ferris wheel idea. But then, my childhood Erector set was one of those. Maybe a whole line of carnival rides. There is that rollercoaster stuff supposedly coming along...

You're right about crossover appeal. That's a big aspect of why the Creator houses succeed.

RomanticWarrior

Pitfall69 said:

I don't know, but maybe they hired "The Waitresses". They seem to know what boys and girls like ;)

Great. That's going to be stuck in my head now all night. :(. That was a really clickish move

margot

dougts said:

LEGO isn't trying to "limit girls", they are trying to provide a tiny tool that may or may not help someone find a suitable gift.

In your opinion... In my opinion it's harmful and completely unnecessary. You know kids pick up on everything they see. I fly airplanes for a living. Yet a few years ago my son saw a woman driving a pickup truck and said "Women aren't supposed to drive trucks!". I was floored. Gender stereotypes and sexism are rampant in our culture, we don't need to reinforce it by having a Lego category just for girls...

Pitfall69

Oh man!! That will NEVER die ;) I grew up as an 80's child and I hated 80's pop and new wave music. The horror, but I had to throw that in there. If it is any consolation, I can't get it out of ny head either.

RomanticWarrior

A couple more months and it'll be time for "Christmas Rapping"

chromedigi

It could be worse. It could be Disco Duck. Everybody could be Kung Fu Fighting. The Boys could be Back in Town. Be thankful for small favors.

y2josh

RomanticWarrior said:

A couple more months and it'll be time for "Christmas Rapping"

LOVE that song. An old favorite in our house.

Pitfall69 said:

Oh man!! That will NEVER die ;) I grew up as an 80's child and I hated 80's pop and new wave music.

Except for Talking Heads, of course. On account of their being the greatest band of all time. ;-)

oldtodd33

@pitfall69 Go grab an Iron Maiden CD, that will get it out of your head.

SilentMode

I'm outraged, this thread should be eliminated.

CCC

margot said:

dougts said:

LEGO isn't trying to "limit girls", they are trying to provide a tiny tool that may or may not help someone find a suitable gift.

In your opinion... In my opinion it's harmful and completely unnecessary. You know kids pick up on everything they see. I fly airplanes for a living. Yet a few years ago my son saw a woman driving a pickup truck and said "Women aren't supposed to drive trucks!". I was floored. Gender stereotypes and sexism are rampant in our culture, we don't need to reinforce it by having a Lego category just for girls...

It isn't just for girls, it is a suggestion for people looking for items on a website. The stuff in the girls' section can also be found by going through other links. They have picked items that they feel will appeal to girls, yet it is not all the pink and purple friends stuff. Some of it is grirly, yet there are a lot of crossover sets. If someone doesn't know what to buy a girl, looking in there will give them some good ideas likely to appeal to a girl. If they know a girl wants a Star Wars set, then they go to the Star Wars section. They are not excluded from using the THEMES rather than CATEGORIES menu.

As for technic for girls, the technic sets are more engineering based. Girls interested in engineering are more likely to incline towards cars, trucks and cranes than the "average" girl (if there is such a thing). I wouldn't really want to see technic sets in pastel colours. Females going into engineering know that those colours don't really occur much in engineering. The idea of fairground sets and so on is great, so long as they are in non-pastel (dare I say it, girly) colours. If they design and sell such sets, I would hope they appeal to both girls and boys, and making them in pink is not going to help sell them to boys. For example, they have WVM high up on the girls list, and I hope this appeals to girls as much as boys. Without too many pastels in there.

AFFOL_Shellz_Bellz

I see the addition of this category being helpful to grandparents, and other relatives who aren't afol's. I actually used it myself when I was searching for the Disney Princess Duplo sets for my granddaughters because it narrowed what I would see without having to know the names of the sets.

margot

AFFOL_Shellz_Bellz said:

I actually used it myself when I was searching for the Disney Princess Duplo sets for my granddaughters because it narrowed what I would see without having to know the names of the sets.

How did it narrow what you would see when there are way less sets in the Duplo section vs the girls category?

margot

CCC said:

They have picked items that they feel will appeal to girls,

I know, that's what bothers me.

CCC

margot said:

CCC said:

They have picked items that they feel will appeal to girls,

I know, that's what bothers me.

They seem fairly decent choices to me for girls (I changed the ages to 6-10, to get rid of duplo and the older kids stuff) ... fall and other season scenes, princess set, treehouse, family house, friends sets, advent calendar, CMF, ...

margot

CCC said:

They seem fairly decent choices to me for girls (I changed the ages to 6-10, to get rid of duplo and the older kids stuff) ... fall and other season scenes, princess set, treehouse, family house, friends sets, advent calendar, CMF, ...

OMG, how about we let girls choose for themselves instead of telling them what they are supposed to like.
"As I have said before, one of the things that I find most disturbing about gender stereotyping is the way that it constricts a child’s vision for themselves. When a girl or boy repeatedly sees males and females displayed in very narrow roles, it is sure to impact their own view of how they should behave, what their dreams should be, and who they might become."

cheshirecat

Seems clear to me that this category will be very useful for a whole host of shoppers, and lets be honest the majority of girls will fall well within its limits. For those shoppers that ara shopping for the lets guess 95% of girls who do, this list doesn't just make their shopping easier by removing the hundreds of inapplicable sets it also widens out their options way beyond the friends line, which might otherwise be their first idea. Its actually doing what many have asked for - encouraging girls to sets beyond friends, but its doing so in a sensible small step. Throw in a bunch of other sets, star wars, city police etc and most shoppers won't give it a second look as it doesn't fit what they want/expect.

Those that don't want to be pigeon-holed wont care just as I know a few boys that have friends lego despite the pink packaging, butterflies and other 'girlie' features. Its quite likely that it will even encourage more girls into lego if it makes gift buying easier and then once hooked on lego, viewing other lego sets, the lego catalogue etc they will be exposed to all the other lego sets they may love. They won't get that opportunity when buying most other toys.

Quoting from another thread... "Thumbs down to whiners." ;-)

margot

cheshirecat said:

this list doesn't just make their shopping easier by removing the hundreds of inapplicable sets

Yeah, that's not offensive. ;-)

cheshirecat

^ Shouldn't be although perhaps I worded it poorly. I meant inapplicable, i.e. not relevant, to shoppers looking for a set for a girl not sets that are inapplicable to girls. Almost all, if not all Star Wars sets for example are not relevant to someone looking to buy (as a guess) 95% of girls LEGO. By removing these sets from their list they are less likely to give up on getting LEGO and in addition more likely now to get something other than friends.

chromedigi

CCC said:

As for technic for girls, the technic sets are more engineering based. Girls interested in engineering are more likely to incline towards cars, trucks and cranes than the "average" girl (if there is such a thing). I wouldn't really want to see technic sets in pastel colours.

Though I don't especially want to derail this thread, I have to respond to this. What you're saying presupposes that the girl is already interested. The larger problem, as I see it as the father of a little girl, is how do you develop that interest in the first place?

As far as color choices are concerned, I don't really care what color the bits are so long as the strategy works. But, also, aesthetically, I think it would be a hoot to introduce a wider palette (including pastels) to Technic. Modeling cars, for example, would become more fun for everyone. Go to any dealership, and you'll find most cars aren't in the Technic color scheme.

I also think it would be good for Technic to dare to venture outside the arena of little boy sandbox toys as source material. Crossover appeal is always a good thing, but specific girl appeal wouldn't hurt, either. Go Google engineering toys for girls, and you'll find that there are others who at least are attempting something in this arena.

I went to a very well-known science & engineering school, and we had young women (not nearly enough, but we had them). At the time, it was about 20% female. Although that ratio improved a little in later years, what I'm seeing in little kids nowadays concerns me. The little girl in the Target store was depressing. My wife was an engineer in the Soviet Union. She tells me that there, the majority of engineers (though not engineering managers) were female. Imagine that! It's not an innate gender bias to have the interest and talent. We are wasting the potential of a significant fraction of our population, and over what? The color of toys?

margot

Sorry @cheshirecat, but girls like Star Wars too.

Bumblepants

If the search tags include everything, they are worthless. If a girl/girl's parents know she likes Star Wars they will not search 'girls', they will click on Star Wars and get that awesome kid what she wants.

If however, clueless relative is bumbling around to buy a gift for a girl, they can search 'girls' and find a list of things girls tend to like.

cheshirecat

^^ Some girls yes, most girls? Not the ones I know. As sad as it might be they like Dolls, shopping, kitchens and Disney princess. That said I completely 100% agree with you there will be some that love Star Wars as much as any boy. The issue is should LEGO tailor their approach to that, say 5%, or to the massive majority - especially when providing a feature that is clearly useful - even if not to you. There's also a difference between liking a film and wanting a toy of that film. More to the point, a girl that likes star wars or parent of that girl isn't all of a sudden going to stop looking at the star wars theme area just because they now see a girls area.

If this was a little pink or blue star applied to each and every set on the website that said its either a boys toy or a girls toy then I'd agree with you, but that's blatantly not what this is - its a simple filter that gives shoppers a better idea of what sets may be of interest to them shopping for girls, it doesn't preclude them from looking in other categories that they know might also be of interest be it Star Wars, TMNT etc.

margot

cheshirecat said:

^^ Some girls yes, most girls? Not the ones I know. As sad as it might be they like Dolls, shopping, kitchens and Disney princess.

That's pretty much all they get exposed to. Girls (and boys) shouldn't be pigeon holed into these narrow categories. When I grew up I loved Barbies and matchbox cars. Why did I love Matchbox cars, because my dad gave me a whole set. So I played with it, loved them! What do you think a girl would do if she was given a Star Wars set? She would play with it.... I know that there are huge gender differences and I'm not saying they should be ignored. But it should would be nice if people would buy things for girls that aren't only pink/purple/ princessy ... The only reason I am able to be in a career that is 96% men is because I never knew any better. I never thought it was a career that is only for men.

cheshirecat

@chromedigi

You make a good point about the technic models - I can't see and don't think LEGO should be expected to make a technic set with specific girl appeal as it a) probably wouldn't sell and b) would no doubt bring about another outcry over girls being excluded from all the other technic sets. However, creating a range of simple (as entry level, not the ability of the girl!) technic sets that focus on the mechanics rather than the aesthetic might be a decent approach.

With that in mind I'd definitely recommend having a look at the book, crazy action contraptions (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lego-Crazy-Action-Contraptions-Klutz/dp/1591747694) and not just because it allows you to build a kitchen appliance (although its probably the best thing in there and certainly my 7 year old boys' favourite!). Don't be put off by the cover - it comes with a range of grey, white and red technic pieces and has instructions to build about 12 different and varied models. It focuses on the mechanics of each item (including gearing and power) and building working models rather than just static models.

LostInTranslation

The last couple of comments from Chesh and Bumblepants are spot on. If you're a parent or close relative/friend of a child, you know what they like playing with. If you're buying a gift for a child whose tastes you don't particularly know, you ask the parents or pick a typically "safe" option for the gender in question. Simples.

chromedigi

@cheshirecat and @margot - I think you're both right in your own ways. This issue, unfortunately, is a morass. And yes, Crazy Action Contraptions is something I've had in mind for a while. It's not bad, but then, where do you take it from there? I'm also thinking about some of the stuff at Lego Education, though to a kid, it could look more like school/homework than like fun. I have a WeDo kit stashed that I've been waiting for the right time to try out. That time may be at hand soon. But I keep saying to myself "it shouldn't have to be this difficult."

jasor

margot said:

Sorry @cheshirecat, but girls like Star Wars too.

Mine loves SW and LOTR and HP and SuperHeroes all. She has Friends sets along with her SW sets, but she'll shop both aisles. If the kid likes what they like, and has people fostering it....I just dont think a filter is going to change that.

margot

From a male friend- "But, we create out own reality. Their claim is that it is what sells, what girls want, is disingenuous. Girls perceptions are shaped by what is marketed to them."