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Why don't TLG's competitors produce a decent product?

edgarallanpoe1422edgarallanpoe1422 AustraliaMember Posts: 131
With TLG's high profile patent losses in the early to mid-2000's, the way was pretty much clear for its competitors to produce something almost identical, but take advantage of Lego's situation in unfriendly Nordic welfare state business climates. But instead, to single out M*** B*****, they chose to basically lean on the strength of their licenses and hope that the only difference clueless parents could see was the price tag, achieved by cutting every production corner possible and churning out junk.

Now, I don't mind paying a lot for Lego necessarily, the prestige of the brand means it holds its value well and creates investment opportunities, but surely given there doesn't seem to be any legal possibility to restrict a competitor *also* manufacturing a high-quality product in almost exactly the same vein, isn't it strange we haven't had one yet? I mean, if another brand of building block managed to project a look and feel of sturdiness and quality instead of 'cheap Chinese plastic', manufactured sets I'm interested in but that TLG wouldn't touch such as religious monuments or military replicas, and crucially carried the same design ethos of common, regular elements used in innovative ways to create more complex designs, and did all this at a sharp price point appreciably cheaper than Lego, well, I'd be interested.

Sure the singular, monumental status of Lego within the toy world would be daunting, but at the same time in making such a similar product you'd be effectively hitching your wagon to TLG's, probably bag a lot of free publicity as the 'new upstart venture', and since your product would be compatible with Lego you wouldn't be forcing consumers juggle two building systems.

Who knows, might work.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,214
    To make a decent product you would probably need to invest significantly more than current clone brands. Meaning your product would need to be expensive to buy, in comparison to MB and Cobi, etc.

    If I saw two products (i) the original and (ii) a compatible knock-off version and they were the same price, which would I buy? The original. Even if they were the same quality but at 50% of the price, I'd still stick with lego.

    Now maybe if they sold parts that lego didn't produce, or parts in packs that were quite hard to get hold of the originals (Roman shields (sheilds?) for example in my case), then I'd be tempted. That is exactly what the better compatible companies such as brickforge, brickwarriors, brickarms, etc do. Produce quality compatible parts that lego don't make.
  • edgarallanpoe1422edgarallanpoe1422 AustraliaMember Posts: 131
    CCC said:

    To make a decent product you would probably need to invest significantly more than current clone brands. Meaning your product would need to be expensive to buy, in comparison to MB and Cobi, etc.

    If I saw two products (i) the original and (ii) a compatible knock-off version and they were the same price, which would I buy? The original. Even if they were the same quality but at 50% of the price, I'd still stick with lego.

    Now maybe if they sold parts that lego didn't produce, or parts in packs that were quite hard to get hold of the originals (Roman shields (sheilds?) for example in my case), then I'd be tempted. That is exactly what the better compatible companies such as brickforge, brickwarriors, brickarms, etc do. Produce quality compatible parts that lego don't make.

    But surely there's got to be some room to move for a firm to maintain TLG's high standards of quality and still undercut them by, say, operating in a more business-friendly environment than Denmark?
  • edgarallanpoe1422edgarallanpoe1422 AustraliaMember Posts: 131
    And plus, they could carve out a niche making sets TLG won't touch. Who wouldn't want a lego Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore, St Peter's Square, Milan Cathedral, St Paul's, Hagia Sophia, Sagrada Familia, Notre Dame, St Basil's... or a lego Globemaster, Apache, F-22 Raptor, et al.
  • icey117icey117 DenmarkMember Posts: 506
    Denmark is very businessfriendly! We have produced and are still producing several more world-wide heavy-weightet companies, per capitia than most other nations. :-)
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,214
    edited July 2013



    But surely there's got to be some room to move for a firm to maintain TLG's high standards of quality and still undercut them by, say, operating in a more business-friendly environment than Denmark?

    Lego do operate outside of Denmark.

    If it could be done, then why aren't MB and Cobi doing it? It is because they can sell their products anyway, call them compatible with the leading brand and make a profit as people buy them thinking they are lego. To an extent they are compatible. To increase quality would mean an increase in costs, an increase in cost price, and probably a drop in sales. Why bother when their current product sells very well as it is.

    And plus, they could carve out a niche making sets TLG won't touch. Who wouldn't want a lego Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore, St Peter's Square, Milan Cathedral, St Paul's, Hagia Sophia, Sagrada Familia, Notre Dame, St Basil's... or a lego Globemaster, Apache, F-22 Raptor, et al.

    I'm sure some people do, but that would be mainly adults. I doubt many lego fans would buy them though, as they are not lego.
    icey117
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,401
    I get your point. I think it is the same with almost anything consumers buy. People want their IPhones, IPods and IPads. They don't want cheap knockoffs. Even if the product is similar and works well enough.
  • YpresYpres Member Posts: 200
    Who cares about a decent product? What does that have to do with sales? Think about it... people don't buy Apple products because they're the best, it's because they THINK they're the best thanks to their brand recognition. Lego is a toy company, and like the majority of consumers who walk into their local WALMART store they're influenced solely by brand recognition. Lego is a product that encourages creativity and imaginative play, plus the Legoman is iconic to multiple generations, so of course parents are going to stop in the Lego section. Do most people check or care whether their Legoman or Ipod is manufactured in China? No. And do you think there's a company out there that wants to mimic Lego's model, and compete with them? Hell no. The only reason M*** brands exists after the stock market collapse is because they kept distribution in China. The compitetion survives on the peanut shells that get dropped on the bar floor, so unless that fulfills your masochistic desire of getting crushed like a bug, stay out of Lego's business. There's no guarantee Lego will even be making a "decent product" in ten years. By that time people in Mexico and Czech might not want those jobs, or Lego rising costs might finally force Lego to look for cheaper manufacturing. Lego struggles to sell in Canada because supply outweighs demand, and the only way retailers can influence the demand is by marking down products. Lego's MSRP is influenced by both manufactuing costs and brand recognition, so they know the exact number to price their product at so it doesn't sell too quickly or too slowly.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,214
    I'm not so sure with consumer electronics. There are perfectly good quality rivals to apple products and it comes down to fanboyism.

    But then there are cheap knock offs that people buy that look exactly like apple products for 20% of the price. Could they make those better? Probably, but if they started to get closer in price to the real thing, you might as well just buy the real thing.
  • peterlinddkpeterlinddk DenmarkMember Posts: 170
    About seven or eight years ago, TLG wanted to move all production to China, and away from Denmark (the "unfriendly"-ness basically comes down to taxes (not business-tax, but the employee tax) and hence salaries are extremely high). They tried to outsource it to Flextronics, a consumer and electronics-producer that does a lot of apparently quality-work. But Flextronics, in their own words, simply couldn't reach the level of quality that LEGO (and consumers) had come to expect from 50 years of "The best is not too good".

    Production stayed in Billund, and they started building their own factories, using their own people - and while quality has been an issue (we all remember the early collectible minifigures) it seems to constantly improve. That has taken eight years, and probably cost a lot of money ... All the clone-brands don't have that amount of time - and their customers also don't expect the higher quality, so why even try?

    Additionally, I personally think that there is a bit of the "Dunning-Kruger"-effect going on - in that the clone-brand producers themselves don't recognize good quality when they see it, so they may actually think that their own products are exactly as good as those from LEGO. And they think that it is just "fanboyism" or brandrecognition when consumers prefer genuine LEGO-products.
  • tamamahmtamamahm Member Posts: 1,955
    (I don't think it is necessarily fanboy or fangirlism. Some of us have had apple products for a while, so the number of apps we have makes it hard to change platforms, without a huge, huge compelling reason. )

    Ditto what many said above, though. I think there would need to be far more investment made to come up with a product that can compete with quality, or even look. The Barbie knock-off versus the Friends line?? Even the Friends box/photography was far superior. Sometime it isn't just about brand, but also the overall look of the product on the shelf. I still think Lego looks far better on the shelf compared to any other competitor. Obviously my 6 year old must think so too, because he doesn't even glance at anything that is not Lego. With those Lego boxes, he has instant info about the sets, and gathers far more info than I do in the space of about 5 seconds. ;-)
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,214
    It is not just that the clone producers cannot tell what quality is, but also the users. Some parents don't care about the quality of their kids' toys. And their kids don't know any better.
  • graphitegraphite USMember Posts: 3,246
    tamamahm said:

    (I don't think it is necessarily fanboy or fangirlism. Some of us have had apple products for a while, so the number of apps we have makes it hard to change platforms, without a huge, huge compelling reason. )

    This is exactly why after my Gen II iPod I never touched an apple product. There was a 3rd party program I could use to maintain my music collection on my iPod that didn't try to take over my computer the way iTunes used to. But once they wen't to the dock connector they completely isolated themselves and forced 3rd parties to pay for the use of a proprietary communications protocol in order to interface with their devices. It worked for them because the product was quality and people were willing to live that way so 3rd party developers and designers paid for it because the market was huge.

    The problem is that it puts people in your position. Can't get out easily so now you're stuck and as time goes on Apple could make crappier and crappier devices and wouldn't lose a huge % of people due to the hassle. Some of my android apps my crash here and there because they aren't scrutinized before going up on the app store but I can live with that for the ability to easily use my phone as a USB device or root the phone to enable features my carrier decided not to support.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,401
    Oh man. I was just using Apple as an example of brand recognition. I wasn't suggesting that Apple was a better product, just that everyone and their brother knows the Apple brand.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,401
    Anyway...I will always buy Lego, even if a company puts out the exact same product. To me it goes far beyond the product itself. Customer service is also important to me.
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    to the original question, why would they? Theyd be in direct competition with lego, a well known and placed product. better to produce a lower quality product and market it at a lower price point.
  • lulwutlulwut Member Posts: 416
    edited August 2013
    Brand perception. Lego dominates in building bricks. They have made their mark in the territory, it's a huge uphill battle to try and compete directly with. At least they actually back it up with superior customer service and brick quality.

    I get called cheap all the time for not owning anything Apple. Although I secretly have pass down Iphone 4 to use the WM app.
  • Pitfall69Pitfall69 0 miles to Legoboy's houseMember Posts: 11,401
    Oh no. I see another video game console-like discussion coming. Please. For the love of God, no.
    BumblepantsFurrysaurusjasorkhmellymel
  • kyrotekkyrotek Southampton, UKMember Posts: 212
    I can see another big company has opted into the market and is making a killing in figure sales because it is marketed directly to fans of well known brands that have been around for years. Lego would never have agreed to the brands due to their inherent nature and the parent company isn't likely to offer the job out when it can make money itself.

    They have also branched out to a new game brand and introduced a bizarre electronic feature which allows for "movement" within the diorama when built.
  • EricEric Queensland, AustraliaMember Posts: 376
    Even if Mega Blocks started creating a product, at an identical level of quality, Lego could just as easily drop the prices of their products to a point where the competitors can't compete with, thus forcing them out of the market. Lego have effectively got a monopoly, and could afford to face a drop in profit for a few years, if it meant maintaining the monopoly.
  • BrickDancerBrickDancer Dunes of TatooineMember Posts: 3,639
    Lego's Key Advantages/Strengths:

    1. High Quality of parts
    2. Excellent Customer Service
    3. Expensive Licenses for Desirable themes/Characters
    4. Broad Marketing across many platforms such as Video Games, Clothes, Gear
    5. Wide palette of colors
    6. Giant selection of part types
    7. Attractive Minifigures with worldwide recognition
    8. Heritage steeped in legend over years with devout customer base
    9. Global brand recognition and de facto building block brand.
    10. Design Design Design (Show me one decent set from MB/Kreo that can stand against a 10XXX Lego set.)

    It's too much of an uphill battle for any new comer to beat Lego at its own game. At least with a heads up analysis. They have to attack the market from a different angle, such as Light-up bricks, nano-scale, motorized, etc. to stand a chance of carving out their own niche to stay viable in before spreading out to the main areas.
  • prof1515prof1515 EarthMember Posts: 1,561
    #10 is hardly applicable. To make an appropriate comparison of sets' design it would have to be based on price and parts range. When that's done, you get a lot of variance from Lego and the results are split.
  • rocaorocao Administrator Posts: 4,288
    There are a lot of factors that lead to LEGO's market dominance and many have already been mentioned. But do you have a decent grasp of how much LEGO invests in the machinery to produce precise parts? Do a websearch for "LEGO megafactories" and you'll find a documentary that shows some of it. Your OP kind of just made it a given that a competitor could compete in terms of quality. Clone brands are improving in quality, but it has always been a game of catch up.
  • kyrotekkyrotek Southampton, UKMember Posts: 212
    edited August 2013
    There is the also the fact that TLG just make Lego, even the sideline stuff is an incredibly tiny range of goods next to the core product. They can concentrate on a quality product, spending money just where it's needed. They have built the brand name based on a legacy of many years trial and error, selling one product to fans across the world, dedicating their efforts of maintaining a unified experience. They expanded, changed and possibly even evolved that one brick design into something special to so many people.

    Compare that to Hasbro who produce Transformers, GI Joe, Elefun games and they even have Zynga under their banner. A diverse spectrum of products of which Kre-o is tiny portion that started purely by Transformers because fans wanted mini versions their favorite characters. They were included in sets as an add-on collectible to expand the product but now come packaged alone with parts. Now they have even mananged to option the GI Joe and Star Trek licences into it now.

    That is the main reason Lego trumps Kre-o, customer experience and loyalty. Company values are different too which changes how they promote themselves and their products.
  • CCCCCC UKMember Posts: 18,214
    edited August 2013
    There is also an angle that lego "steals" ideas from smaller custom makers too. For example, small custom parts makers have made parts for Spartan and Roman soldiers, gladiators, etc which existed long before lego made them in the CMF line (the custom parts, not the people!). It seems these smaller makers get in on the act, often inspired by movies (300, Gladiator, LOTR, etc), much quicker than lego do, have maybe a few years to make the parts and sell them, then lego comes along and makes their own versions (whether they are inspired by the customs or not we will never know) which effectively kills off that line for customs makers and they need to move on to something else.

    Of course, the one area they will not copy is modern warfare, which is why so many of the customers makers specialise in this area.

    So another reason why it is difficult is that a custom / clone brand needs to find a niche, but it has to be a niche that lego will not cover otherwise they can just step in an copy the idea in their own way.
  • koozkooz Connecticut, USAMember Posts: 158
    As someone who owns a few larger competitor sets as well as a ton of Lego sets, I will confirm that Cobi is close in quality, Kre-O is not, nor is Mega Bloks. But I think there are 2 points aside from quality of parts that help keep Lego on top.

    1. Creativity of design. It's been said before, and it's true. A good Lego model has creative elements to the build that make it enjoyable and satisfying. Kre-O does not; the builds are straightforward and boring. Mega Bloks uses a lot of large, single-use pieces and isn't cleverly designed. Cobi, despite the quality, has boring models too.

    2. Cost. At least in the US, real Lego competitors are about he same cost. A Halo, Star Trek, WoW, or Transformers set costs about he same as a comparable Lego set, maybe being a dollar or two cheaper. Minifig bags cot the same (for Kre-O) or more (for MB). Cobi/Character Building is not available in the US except from retailers who specially import them, so they end up much more expensive than Lego (I'd love to own more Doctor Who or Zombies vs. Monsters, but I can't afford them!).

    My two cents.
  • koozkooz Connecticut, USAMember Posts: 158
    Oh yeah, forgot to mention that brands that are significantly cheaper, like Best-Lok, are garbage.
  • jasorjasor United StatesMember Posts: 839
    I remember Tyco as a kid, and there were 3-4 parts that survived all my shucking of their bricks...parts that had a real use in Lego models that Lego didnt produce.
  • clickdastardlyclickdastardly United StatesMember Posts: 14
    Out of curiosity I bought a Best-Lock set for $4.99 at Target. It was a Stargate spaceship. Wow...they are awful. In fact, the word "awful" doesn't do justice to how much they hurt my fingers trying to get some of the pieces to snap together. Curiosity satisfied. I will never give Best-Lock a second glance if I see them on the shelves.
  • masterX244masterX244 GermanyMember Posts: 488
    thanks for another bunch of reasons to immediately dispose clone bransds befre they get near my lego collection (aka entering the house)
  • cheshirecatcheshirecat Member Posts: 5,332
    In TRU yesterday my 4 year old picked up some nanblocks to which my 7 year old said 'no, we dont want those. thats not real lego its rubbish lego'. i was so proud, even the wife was impressed.
    fitzyfitzkezdougtsLegoFanTexasLegobrandonCPalexwiljasorScottlego667edgarallanpoe1422
  • AanchirAanchir United StatesMember Posts: 2,828

    In TRU yesterday my 4 year old picked up some nanblocks to which my 7 year old said 'no, we dont want those. thats not real lego its rubbish lego'. i was so proud, even the wife was impressed.

    I don't think Nanoblocks deserve the same hate as a lot of clone brands. They are clearly inspired by stud-based building toys like LEGO, but they don't depend on compatibility with LEGO as a crutch, they don't shamelessly copy LEGO parts or set designs, and they don't play "follow the leader" with LEGO brands the way a lot of clone brands do.

    It's true that they aren't as good an investment as LEGO if you're a dedicated LEGO collector, but I think they're just fine as low-priced novelty gifts and probably about as valid an "alternative building toy" as K'Nex, Tinkertoy, Erector, or Lincoln Logs.
    chromedigi
  • chromedigichromedigi Member Posts: 344
    edited October 2013
    So I finally had to satisfy some of my curiosity about clone products, and built my first few off-brand sets over the past couple of days. One that I encountered was worthy of note: Spin Master Tenkai Knights. I built the "Dimensional Dropship."

    I was actually astonished by the quality of the molds for its pieces: they are every bit as refined as LEGO, and fit with very close tolerance, unlike both of the other off brands I've sampled so far (Kre-O / Oxford and Block Tech / Jubilux Woma [?]). In fact, the part quality per se might even exceed LEGO in some respects. There were no flash moldings or other unsightly mold marks, and the white was brighter and far more consistent than what I've been seeing out of TLG lately. On the down side, if you're used to the fit of LEGO, these pieces do fit quite a bit more snugly, and thus require more force to put together. Loosening the stud tolerance a weeny bit would make building rather more pleasant for we LEGO fans. But the individual pieces themselves look great: even the undersides are as fine as LEGO.

    Their plates, which comprise the bulk of the build for this model, are essentially a hybrid of the bottom of a LEGO tile with the hollowed studs from a Technic brick on top. Other than the "transforming" fig/brick, which is very well articulated and an interesting and original concept in itself, the other pieces of note are a 1x2 polarity reversing platelet, and a 1x2 inverted tile. I say "platelet" rather than "plate" because it is thin, like a 42446 minifig neck bracket. They also put the "groove" we're used to seeing on LEGO tiles on other pieces as well.

    I have no idea who actually manufactures the parts for this company, but whoever they are, they are based in China (while Spin Master itself is apparently Canadian), and they have serious chops with injection-molded ABS. I would assume that Spin Master did the set design, which is competent, though this set is not especially interesting to me (but I got it out of curiosity about the brand, which I had never heard of before, not because I particularly wanted to build that model).

    Who among the Chinese has the ability to do this? Star Diamond? Wange? I haven't seen one of their sets myself yet, but I hear that they make decent parts.
  • LegoFanTexasLegoFanTexas TexasMember Posts: 8,409
    I saw some Nanoblocks at B&N the other day and was shocked at the prices...

    They sure aren't bargain priced, that's for sure. Or at least not there, B&N does markup over RRP on some items (they had CMF 11 for $4.99 each!)
  • chromedigichromedigi Member Posts: 344
    edited October 2013
    No. Nanoblocks are expensive, like lots of other Japanese goods. They're also pretty good for what they are.

    The B&N markup is there so that member discount brings you to RRP. But discounts on top of that (coupons) can actually be pretty good if you use them well. FWIW, I don't consider Nanoblocks to be "clones", either.
  • chromedigichromedigi Member Posts: 344
    edited October 2013

    The B&N markup is there so that member discount brings you to RRP.

    ...for many things in the store. But those $4.99 figs are just outrageous! You still lose, even after the member discount. But not everything is always terrible like that.
  • beabea Member Posts: 227
    As much as I hate B&N, I don't think they mark up nanoblocks. Their prices seem to be on par Ohio Art's own website although I do see the odd markup here and there. Nanoblocks usually cheaper on amazon and quite a bit cheaper in Japan.

    That said, if you consider the "price per piece" method, the price of nanoblocks is under 10c a piece at MSRP and they can always be had for less. Of course you can make arguments about the utter lack of piece variety but I find them very enjoyable given what they are.
  • XefanXefan Member Posts: 1,149
    I bought a Nanoblocks set and I agree it's not an attempt at competing directly with Lego but it is however a bunch of overpriced crap. Appallingly difficult to build successfully, terrible instructions such that it's mostly guesswork, yet priced like a premium product.

    I like the concept, I like some of the models, but if they're going to charge what they do they need to give me premium quality.
  • chromedigichromedigi Member Posts: 344
    edited October 2013
    kooz said:

    As someone who owns a few larger competitor sets as well as a ton of Lego sets, I will confirm that Cobi is close in quality [...] Cobi, despite the quality, has boring models too. [...] Cobi/Character Building is not available in the US except from retailers who specially import them

    I just built my first Cobi set, the Scooby Doo Wing Walker Playset, purchased locally at a TRU, where there are several other of their Scooby Doo sets available in the off-brands aisle. There being no Doctor Who, or anything else other than Scooby sets there from this company, I picked this one up, since it looked like the one most likely to have interesting SNOT parts in it.

    The quality of the parts is in fact remarkably good, close to LEGO. The selection of parts themselves was very interesting. This set contains a number of part types that I've been clamoring for from LEGO, to no avail:

    1. Tiles in a good variety of sizes and even non-rectangular shapes - great for building wings unmarred by studs all over the place

    2. Lots of polarity-reversing SNOT plates in a variety of sizes

    3. Slopes that join to make continuous edges, unmarred by the "shingle" stepping you always get with LEGO slopes, all with smooth, rather than textured surfaces

    If it weren't for the fact that these are all in candy colors, they'd be outstanding for architectural MOCcing. I will be buying more CB sets in the future.

    As for the model itself: I'd say it's quite good for the number of parts involved. The build is sensible and modular, and the result is good looking. I don't much like the Scooby fig, but whatever. There's more to life than figs, and besides, you can always use some other fig you like better instead.

    I give it an A.
    Styer
  • chromedigichromedigi Member Posts: 344
    ^ It came with stickers. I never apply them, so I can't comment on the quality of those.
  • BastaBasta Australia Member Posts: 1,259
    edited October 2013
    Xefan said:

    I bought a Nanoblocks set and I agree it's not an attempt at competing directly with Lego but it is however a bunch of overpriced crap. Appallingly difficult to build successfully, terrible instructions such that it's mostly guesswork, yet priced like a premium product.

    I like the concept, I like some of the models, but if they're going to charge what they do they need to give me premium quality.

    Lol, that's part of what I enjoy about Nanoblocks, it's a bit of challenge.
    My wife started getting in to these as she love animals, now we have about 10 of them sitting on a shelf.

    I have built 2, the Taj Mahal and Neuschwanstein Castle. Yes they are fiddly and the instructions are nothing like Lego's but after building 2 sets I find them fine, and from what I can tell these sets are not aimed at kids so the instructions don't have to be too basic.

    I can see why not every one would like these, but I have really enjoyed building the 2 I have done, more then I thought that I would. Nanoblocks are the only "Clone" (Not that I really see then as a clone) brand that I have bought as they offer something a little different then what Lego does.

    And for any one really keen they have a Deluxe edition of the Neuschwanstein Castle with over 5800 pieces.
  • BastaBasta Australia Member Posts: 1,259
    I'm sure much to some peoples disgust :P here is a picture of some Nanoblocs

    Nanobocks
    chromedigi
  • cody6268cody6268 Member Posts: 268
    edited October 2013
    I personally like competitor's products because I can bulk up my supply without breaking the bank. I even bought the Mega Bloks Fire Rescue set because it had realistic firefighting equipment especially the hydraulic cutter in it.

    A local gift shop has had the Nanoblocks in their catalog, and I might get one as they do look good.
  • iamterryiamterry Member Posts: 159
    That last picture shows quite what a competitor can do rather well if they try (design wise). If LEGO had produced that set people would going gaga over it.
    Styer
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