MISB?

alldarker

As others, starting with johnsbricks, have said above: MISB says nothing about the condition of a box, except that it has never been opened. Any misconception of a buyer about this term is due to their own interpretation (and ignorance) of the real and literal meaning of the acronym.
I also collect Generation 1 Transformers, some of which are still MISB (or MOSC: mint On Sealed Card), even though the (sealed!) boxes / cards look slightly or even badly worse for wear. And I actually have a formerly white but now yellowed Transformer, due to being displayed in its sealed box: definitely not mint but certainly in a sealed box (ISB!). The box might even be called mint while the contents aren't.
Point being: please do not confuse MISB with MIMSB (Mint In Mint Sealed Box).
And to the topic starter... resealed =/= resealed. Perhaps you could sell it as MIB, though ;-)

Lambringo

In my mind MISB would indicate that the item is factory sealed, the internal product to be as if it was just off the production line and the exterior package to be as it would be found new off the shelf at a store. Off the shelf does not indicate shelf ware from sitting there for 2 years, but allows for minor imperfections. Others will have different interpretations, and 'minor imperfections' is a term up for debate, but that is why photographic evidence should be sourced if in doubt.

If a seller is going to use the term MISB but uses a stock image, and the item shown up with minor damage, I would consider that as a misleading sale. The use of a stock image would also indicate that the seller is not really aiming their sales for collectors and caution should be taken. If the seller says MISB and provides photos that show the product is MISB, but when the item arrives the side that wasn't shown in the photo has minor damage then that would also be misleading and deceiving. If the entire item is shown in the photos but the damage is so minor that it can not be seen then it is hard luck as the buyer should accept that the item was MISB as per the sellers bastardised definition.

Context also plays part. Since the AFOL market is 5% (may have changed) it would be unreasonable to expect a seller of current product to use MISB as per a collectors definition when the 95% of its sales (probably higher since most AFOLs can find much better deals than from these types of sellers) would be to people who are not expecting perfectly mint packaging. If a seller is specifically targeting collectors, then they should take a bit more care.

It all boils down to the fact that if you want to remove the hassle, it does not matter what defines MISB, so long as both the buyer and the seller agree on the definition. Do your homework and don't assume. As we say at work, do not assume as it makes an 'ASS' out of 'U' and 'ME'.

Legoboy

I'm sure it's already been suggested previously, but MISB could mean many different things than 'Mint In Sealed Box' including 'bags' for example. And equally, who's to say the sealed bags or box are 'factory' sealed and not resealed with Sellotape or shrinkwrap? In the 'LEGO' community, I'd like to think that we would all be referring to a factory sealed box (at worst) in using MISB when trading with each other, but I'm certiainly going to be very very careful on Ebay from now on.

jadeirene

^ I think anyone trying to use the excuse that MISB means "mint in sealed bags" is just making up terminology to mislead people. I could sell a LEGO set MISB and claim that MISB means "many items seem broken."

What Ebay and other online marketplaces need to do it to define these acronyms so that there is no way for sellers to purposely mislead buyers into thinking that it means something else.

Odindusk

As a buyer, I take it upon myself to hammer out of the seller all of the info that I need to know about the condition of a set that I'm interested in. If they don't comply, or suck at communication, then I move on.

BrickDancer

@odindusk easiest, simplest, and truest all around.

Si_UKNZ

[email protected] many items seem broken!

bahnstormer

just to add to the discussion on mint

Mint in sealed box (MISB) actually describes the contents only as mint

Mint in Mint box (MIMB) is self explanatory

over here we have the abbreviation OVP (originalverpackt - factory packaged) you just add the word unopened in the listing and no need for any grading description as it is still factory fresh.

Si_UKNZ

If MISB is only the contents that are mint, then whats the difference between this and BNISB (Brand new in sealed box)? If the box is sealed, this is the same thing as having mint contents, right?

Also I think the mint thread is here:
http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/45819#Comment_45819

jadeirene

^ I think it is possible to have a factory sealed box and not have the contents inside be mint. If a box has water damage, it might still be sealed, but the instructions and sticker sheets might be ruined. The older sets that have flip up top that reveals the contents inside might have yellowed pieces if it was opened and displayed in the sun.

Of course, the above examples shouldn't (hopefully) happen often, but there are distinctions between sealed box and mint contents.

brickmatic

Actually, brand new comes from fire new, or straight from being made in a furnace. Mint comes from coin collectors, who used it to refer to coins that were just like they were made in a mint. So really, brand new and mint mean the same exact thing. Brand new and mint both mean the item is in the condition it was in right after it was made.

Mint, as originally used, refereed to just the product, the coin. Mint in Sealed Box adds the packaging to the mix: the product is not only in mint condition, it is in a sealed box. Obviously, the confusion when it comes to LEGO is about the box, not the product. It stems from this misguided notion that the box is part of the product. It is not. It is packaging.

MISB: Product is mint, box is original packaging factory sealed and has not been opened.

I think the best way to handle this as a seller is to say "The condition of this product refers to the product contents and the condition of the original product packaging is not guaranteed."

DaddyDeuce

Mint comes from coin collectors, who used it to refer to coins that were just like they were made in a mint.

Coin collectors have developed fairly standard definitions of coin grading. Even though the grades are objectively defined, it can still be subjective to decide which grade a coin belongs to.

"Mint State" (i.e. MS) refers to a coin that has never been circulated. That does not mean the coin is perfect. Coins can have flaws from minting. After being minted they travel down conveyor belts, get dumped into bins, bang against other coins, get poured into bags, etc. MS coins are graded on a scale of 60 to 70. An MS-70 coin is perfect; it just about represents the platonic ideal of what any given coin should be. An MS-60 coin can have significant dents (called "bag marks") from banging into other coins.

The instant a coin gets any circulation wear it can no longer be honestly graded MS. The next grade below MS is "Almost Uncirculated" (i.e. AU). AU coins are graded on a scale of 50 to 58.

One thing that may surprise non-coin collectors is that an AU-58 coin will often be much better looking than an MS-60 coin. The MS-60 coin could be an absolute dog with no luster and completely covered with bag marks, while the AU-58 coin could have been an MS-70 that picked up an ever-so-slight bit of wear. The ugly MS-60 would still be "Mint State" since that is how it left the mint, while the beautiful AU-58 would only be "Almost Uncirculated" since it has even the smallest amount of circulation wear.

Another thing that may surprise non-coin collectors is that the level of tarnish on a coin is independent of the grade. You could have a MS-70 coin (i.e. perfect) that has completely tarnished from silver to black and it is still MS-70, although it may be graded as "MS-70 (Toned)"

Bringing this away from coins and back to LEGO, my point is two-fold.

First; that coin collectors have made a fairly serious effort to standardize what things like "Mint State" and "Very Good" mean. LEGO collectors, AFAIK, have not.

Second; that even things like "Mint State" don't necessarily mean to a non-collector what they do to a collector.

dougts

First; that coin collectors have made a fairly serious effort to standardize what things like "Mint State" and "Very Good" mean. LEGO collectors, AFAIK, have not.

Certainly. And I will submit that near 100% of people buying coins online are collectors, and thus it makes sense that a pretty uniform grading standard would be used by all buyers/and seller. The huge difference with LEGO of course, is that a very small percentage of buyers are collecting unopeneded sets in boxes that are in "mint" condition. The vast majority of buyers fully intend to open and use their LEGO. Thus, it is completely unreasonable to expect any kind of uniform system for grading boxes, which most people really don't care about. The minority MIMSB collector should put the onus on themselves to find out box quality.

Second; that even things like "Mint State" don't necessarily mean to a non-collector what they do to a collector.

exactly

DaddyDeuce

The vast majority of buyers fully intend to open and use their LEGO. Thus, it is completely unreasonable to expect any kind of uniform system for grading boxes, which most people really don't care about. The minority MIMSB collector should put the onus on themselves to find out box quality.

I agree with you completely. A LEGO box is considered disposable to most buyers. As a buyer, unless I ask different, I only expect that it be good enough to give as a gift. To me that means it looks like it just came from the shelf at Wal-mart; some minor creasing, scratching, denting is fine.

bahnstormer

@brickmatic

to add to your post, postal insurers will not cover "damage" to manufacturers packaging as in their opinion it has performed its task.

Istokg

From a purely historical perspective... from 1949 (day 1 of LEGO sets) until 1965, most basic and model sets were MISB as shown below.... the box top came off...but the contents were held in place via cellophane. There were exceptions to this, such as the wooden box, Town Plan and parts pack sets... but this is what most sets had as MISB.

Then starting in 1966... all sets came with parts "loose in box"....