MISB?

bkpr

I wonder…

If I took a used Lego model, boxed it ready for sale, tossed in a Mintie before I sealed it, could I sell it as MISB?

1265

It's the Gong Show........the first gong just rang.

bkpr

How many are needed to win again? :P

andhe

I think the obvious answer is.... no. Unless you sold it as WMISBUIOITDTRIASIFAMISB (Was MISB until I opened it then decided to reseal it and sell it falsely as MISB). :p

bkpr

I wonder if anyone's done that before on eBay or similar, that is, put a mint inside a box and sell it as such. …and what would happen if I sold an actual mint inside of a box, unopened, so it actually *was* MISB? Would it be MISB MISB?

Questions such as these are not for a mere mortal such as I.

Legoboy

I do recall reading on here in the forum about a member purchasing a MISB, leaving it a while and then noticing a year later one of the seals had unstuck. When he opened it up, he found that the box contained a load of used random bricks.

http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/4208#Comment_4208

andhe

Aaaaaah i've just realised what you meant. A MINT in a sealed box.... sorry, slow day :P

Matthew

^^ There was also another post (which I can't find) about someone buying a Death Star and finding that ALL the minifigures were missing...

madforLEGO

Hah... is this mike (microphone) on?

bkpr

@Matthew I just received my Death Star MISB, inside the brown Lego box. MISBISB? I hope all the figures are there. Will be building it a few weeks.

bluemoose

^ 'double bagged' for freshness.

Matthew

^^ You should be OK, the one I read about was from a store, and someone had bought it, removed the figs and returned it.

bkpr

Cool. I hate that to have happened to me, especially since I had to pay ~US$50 tax to get the set into the country (Malaysia).

BTHodgeman

FYI - to a true collector, once the box is opened, it is no longer considered mint. You'll be most effective advertising as "Open in like-new condition / no box" or something like that.

I know there are some big castle people on here. You may very well get an offer from someone on this forum.

Brent

dougts

I think it depends on what is promised. I never promise mint boxes. everything I sell is New in Sealed Boxes, and obviously I always source the most pristine boxes I can find from wherever I get them. But I cannot control everything obviously. Even the best packaging methods can sometimes result in very minor box damage. Some people think that is unacceptable.

People's definition of a "mint box" can vary quite widely, another reason why I don't advertise or even give the impression of perfect boxes.

LegoFanTexas

^ I hear you...

If I buy a "new in sealed box", then I read that as mint and expect it... If it isn't perfect, say so. I've bought many sets with shelf-wear or damaged boxes, I don't mind so long as I know about it up front.

Sometimes price is a factor, I've seen auctions where the seller says "if you need a perfect box, please don't buy from me". I'll buy from him if the price is right, but won't complain about minor box damage.

dougts

I'd have to disagree with your expectation. New in sealed box is just that, a new item in a factory sealed box. It doesn't say mint or perfect box (I don't believe there is such a thing anyway) anywhere, so the expectation should be a box that is free from any serious tears, creases, rips, etc, but with that description you should not expect it to be completely devoid of very minor shelf wear and other imperfections - I think that is just assumed with any box that almost certainly came off of a store shelf or out of a warehouse. If a box is mint, that should be said so in the ad. If you expect mint and it doesn't say mint, I think it is on you to inquire with the seller.

I know if I sold a box with the above description and the buyer expected it to be mint, I would dispute that claim. I inspect my boxes for any major flaws, and if I am selling one that has notable flaws, I list that. But it's unreasonable to list out every tiny minor imperfection that someone might think is warranted.

Maybe you have a more lenient definition of what is considered a mint box. Like I said, I don't believe such a thing even exits, so perhaps that is our only real disagreement and the items that I'm thinking of do in fact meet your definition of mint.

Legoboy

Ohhhh, it exists. I have an awful lot of MISB sets. I think, despite it being twelve years old, the cream of my mintiest sets has got to be one or my UCS X-Wings - the box is absolutely flawless. I couldn't believe it when I stumbled across it. It really is perfect.

I'm with LFT, if I'm buying from Ebay, I want to know what I'm buying. If somebody using the word 'mint', I'd expect to pick up another set as flawless as I have now. If it arrives with the tinyest of scuffs or small crease for example, it's not mint and possibly not worth the premium I pair for it.

dougts

note, we were talking about ads that NEVER used the word 'mint'. He's saying "new in sealed box" assumes that the box is mint, and I disagree. if it says mint, then obviously it should be. likewise, one should not assume 'mint' if it never says mint.

dougts

every box has a flaw. so again, "mint' comes down to a relative definition that can be wildly different depending on the point of view of the person.

Legoboy

@doughs - apologies, you're right, although part of my response was referring to your statement re 'mint' not existing.

I wish you could see this box mate. It is perfectly square, no light scratches, no scuffs, dings, holes, creases, no lid bulging or sagging under its own weight. It is absolutely flawless. When I last saw it, I did study it and ask myself, "Okay, in anyone's world or definition, to the harshest of critics, (and with box condition that would be me), how could the condition not be perfect or 'mint' in this case - it's like a PSA10. I remember spending hours creating some sort of protective 'shell' for it before it went into storage.

dougts

ok, I believe you. Still, such a box would have to be exceedingly rare. like once in a lifetime kind of thing. I bet 95% of stuff sold/accepted/described as "mint" likely has minor imperfections, hence my bigger point about questioning what "mint" means and how it likely varies by the "judge".

cbaker1974

I try to provide the buyers with a general grade of the box...my scale is more towards:
Mint
Excellent with minor shelf wear (Maybe a small dimple in an inconspicuous place, or barely noticeable scuffs)
Normal Shelf Wear (Some scuffing, maybe a minor crease that doesn't affect the front/rear box art)
Heavy Shelf Wear (Major creases, significant scuffs that affects the box art)
Someone sat on it

Most of the boxes I sell are in the Excellent category, sometimes I may drop a set from Mint if there's any doubt. I find that buyers sometimes will pay a premium not just for best condition, but will pay a premium for an accurately described "Normal" condition set to avoid the guessing when no condition is listed...

momof2boys99

I have learned to list when there is even a minor dent in the box as people are picky. I do say " do not buy if you want a perfect box" in some of my ads. I don't list as mint. I have had several customers interpret new and sealed = perfect box. They want a partial refund on a Lego that has very minor shelf wear. I think it's best to be about as upfront as possible and then just hope that your box doesn't get messed up during shipping.

BTHodgeman

@ everyone - I'd just caution you to be very careful in your listing. If you add terms, such as "All boxes contain normal shelf ware, including minor scuffs, scrapes, dents, etc.," a buyer's claim would be dismissed pretty easily.

Brent

gmpirate

note, we were talking about ads that NEVER used the word 'mint'. He's saying "new in sealed box" assumes that the box is mint, and I disagree. if it says mint, then obviously it should be. likewise, one should not assume 'mint' if it never says mint.

Agree here as well. Most all of my boxes are "mint" or "near mint" condition but I never advertise as so. I don't want to have to deal with the scrutiny or worry about missing something. Imo, when you have hundreds of boxes, it just does not make sense to go into detail about every box in the auctions. I'd rather list 10 or 20 sets and let them roll . . .

If a box is especially damaged I will make note of it but otherwise they are just "new and sealed" sets. I my experience, "most" people are not buying the sets for the boxes. If a buyer is looking for something exceptional I think they should inquire -- especially when people have different definitions of what "mint" is. Nothing wrong with being picky but I just don't think its right to expect something not advertised.

prof1515

The only reason people have different definitions of "mint" is because they're either ignorant or liars. I've seen people try to pass off MISB to mean "Mint in Sealed Bags" and even then one defined that as Ziploc sandwich bags. They might just be ignorant morons with an IQ the equivalent of room temperature but in most cases I suspect they're just liars.

I only use the terms Mint and MISB if it actually applies. I will go to great detail to denote every little mark on a box and depending upon the visibility (sometimes marks are only really visible at a certain angle of the light and even then are small) will at best call something "near-mint" if it's really, really, really minor. Only pristine sealed boxes will get the label of Mint or MISB from me and I expect that of any seller as well.

If a set is sold as Mint or MISB and it has even the tiniest mark or wear, I will not buy it and will consider it false advertising. I've even reported numerous sellers on eBay for blatant misuse of the term.

Simply put, if there's any mark, scratch, dent or tear on the box, it is no longer mint.

LegoFanTexas

I've seen mint in sealed bags on eBay, but at least the seller actually typed out in the description "mint in sealed bags" and he put bags in bold, so I think that was a fair one...

Clearly the set was opened, and the bags themselves were sealed. Could have been said another way, but it did say what it was.

Si_UKNZ

This is an interesting one - on the one hand people want MISB, on the other hand, everyone seems to advise opening boxes to check the bags, even if bought from stores, due to tampering. So are those people who want MISB happy to pay a premium in order to take more of a risk?

dougts

Simply put, if there's any mark, scratch, dent or tear on the box, it is no longer mint.

Right, which is pretty much my definition as well, and it means that about 95% of all LEGO boxes are NOT mint. therefore, mint is by far the exception and if a listing does not say mint, one should't presume that it is mint.

johnsbricks

MISB doesn't actually define the box condition...the contents are 'mint' in a 'sealed box'.

MIMSB defines the 'mint sealed box'

MIB defines an opened box but contents are mint.

some people use NRFB - never removed from box.

what defines mint is another issue....some people think a shiny lego brick is mint, some may expect the piece never to have been clutched, some expect never out of the packet.....very confusing.

The problem with abbreviations is that there isn't a strict guidance attached to them. A user who never uses MIMSB may define a mint boxed product purely as MISB. I would say toy sellers who use abbreviations to define their abbreviations to ensure that the buyer understands your meaning of your abbreviations.

LegoFanTexas

Of course the Lego bricks are mint if the box is sealed, isn't that obvious?

If MISB is used, that tells me the product box is mint. Otherwise, why say anything other than new?

Si_UKNZ

I used BNIB all the time to be honest. Many of the boxes are mint, but I cant be bothered with the hassle in case I accidentally scrape it with a fingernail while shipping it :)

prof1515

Of course the Lego bricks are mint if the box is sealed, isn't that obvious?

If MISB is used, that tells me the product box is mint. Otherwise, why say anything other than new?

Exactly.

y2josh

The thing is... mint literally means unused or having the appearance of not being used. To me, this means minor box wear is to be expected. That said, I don't actually use the term mint when I sell boxed items of a collectible nature, simply because so many buyers take it to mean professionally graded.

So, though I completely agree with dougts and the assessment that it really ought to be the buyer's burden to request additional details if they are looking for something beyond what is actually being described, I just avoid the problem all together by sticking with "new" and "factory sealed."

prof1515

mint literally means unused or having the appearance of not being used. To me, this means minor box wear is to be expected.

That's not the definition of mint.

From Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mint):

Definition of MINT

: unmarred as if fresh from a mint (ie, in mint condition)

Examples of MINT

a mint baseball card that should be worth a lot to a collector

First known use of MINT

1902

Related to MINT

Synonyms: brand-new, fresh, pristine, span-new, virgin, virginal

Minor box wear would disqualify a classification of something as mint. You could say it's new, unused, or unopened but mint has a specific connotation that indicates an absence of any wear, marks or blemishes even if the set arrived directly from the factory in such condition.

However, in this case Si_Dorking_Surrey_UK didn't specify the set was mint and therefore I'd say that expectation of such condition is unwarranted. The letter is very good and explains the facts more than sufficiently. I don't see that the buyer has any legitimate grievance with the purchase as it appears to be a case of a someone buying something on the basis of an unsubstantiated assumption and without complete knowledge regarding typical manufacturer practices. It's like complaining that a motorcycle only came with two wheels.

y2josh

Not to split hairs... and understanding different dictionaries are going to give different definitions...

adjective
4. Philately. being in its original, unused condition.
5. unused or appearing to be newly made and never used: a book in mint condition.

in mint condition - (of an object) new or as new: the stamps are packaged to arrive in mint condition

Those are from dictionary.com and the Oxford English Dictionary, respectively. Though Merriam-Webster's mildly conflicting definition is just another great example of why I avoid using the term altogether.

dougts

and again, you still come down to the potential argument of what is being advertised as mint. One could rightly claims that selling a LEGO set "mint in sealed box" is describing the condition of the LEGO, and saying NOTHING about the condition of the box. Since MOST people are in fact, buying LEGO and not collectibles to never be opened, this is not an unreasonable defense of the use of this term. Now if one says "mint is sealed mint box", then obviously they are advertising that the box itself is mint. which again, can have wildly different interpretations all on it's own.

I too never use the term, no do I expect ANY LEGO set I buy to come in a box of pristine condition, unless the ad specifically describes the condition of the box, or I make inquiries as to it's specific condition myself. Assuming a box to be in MY definition of mint condition, would be a mistake on my part as a buyer.

Coolsplash

How can a Lego set be in a 'Mint' condition when it goes through hell of a lot of transit reaching a Buyer finally?

For me, a 'Mint' Lego set is unopened poly bags, and even if I get a box with the tape ends open I will not raise hell. Yes if TLG would start Safe Wrap each box then THAT could be 'Mint'. I took this issue to my elder brother who is a veteran Stamp and Coin collector and asked the true meaning of Mint. So I guess it cannot apply on Lego. Just a thought.

PS. I am seeing the newer sets to have Taped ends now. Maybe we will be saying bye bye to the traditional thumb pressing setup to open the boxes. You never know.

Pacific493

FYI - to a true collector, once the box is opened, it is no longer considered mint. You'll be most effective advertising as "Open in like-new condition / no box" or something like that.

I have to disagree with this. I have sold hundreds of vintage Lego sets over the years and the percentage of buyers who adopt this strict of a grading standard are very few and far between. I have sold plenty of sets of this vintage that were in mint condition for sets of their age and never had a problem. There have been a few buyers here or there who adopted such picky standards, but they have been pretty easy to identify.

If the sets are in mint condition, by all means, list them as being in mint condition...they will sell faster and for higher prices.

JP3804

I always list mint sets as( near mint box, contact me for more photos.) That puts the ball in the buyers court. Never had any issues.

cheshirecat

As has been said MISB unquestionable stands for Mint in sealed box (or even bag), so makes no statement of the boxes condition other than that its sealed (not even factory sealed) - what is mint is what is in the box.

What it may or may not mean to a collector is irrelevant and one of the things about Ebay is that it brings novice sellers in direct association with more expert collecting sellers. So the novice sellers see terms like MISB and have no real understanding of what is actually meant and reuse that term. Is that the novice sellers fault? No, why should they know what is understood by a collector for a particular term if its not actually the same as the English language suggests.

If I sold something on ebay and there was this confusion as a seller I'ld probably try to work around it, but I wouldn't feel obliged if what I stated was accurate particularly if the seller started to get all upperty. I probably wouldn't use that term mind as its not particularly helpful (surely better would be new in factory sealed box, box in excellent condition) - its not like ebay has a limit on word count so condition can be explicitly stated with accompanying photographs and the option of follow up communication.

If the buyer expects a box in excellent condition it is surely up to them to carefully assess the listing or ask for clarification. If they rely on some ambiguous acronym then they should do so at their own risk.

prof1515

What it may or may not mean to a collector is irrelevant and one of the things about Ebay is that it brings novice sellers in direct association with more expert collecting sellers. So the novice sellers see terms like MISB and have no real understanding of what is actually meant and reuse that term. Is that the novice sellers fault?

Ignorance is not an excuse. It is a seller's responsibility to know what they're offering and to present it in a manner which best describes their product. Adding on terminology that they're not familiar with is hardly doing that. Would you add terminology you're not familiar with if you were selling something other than Lego?

If the buyer expects a box in excellent condition it is surely up to them to carefully assess the listing or ask for clarification. If they rely on some ambiguous acronym then they should do so at their own risk.

eBay used to be a lot more hostile to the buyer than to the seller because of attitudes like that. It was abuses by sellers that led to changes which now provide the buyer with the protections they have and make things a lot harder on the seller. Even still, you see sellers who try to deceive and rip off buyers (see the assortment of threads in these forums about bogus eBay sales) and in doing so make life more difficult for legitimate, honest sellers.

johnsbricks

On the matter of what is classified as a mint box, the obvious parts are the absence of any visible markings but handling will to some degree add minor imperfections to the box so do MISB buyers tend to buy their stock direct from Lego given the fact that most boxes are handled in store and may have been taken on and off the shelve a few times? Also how do collectors look after their mint boxes because presumably the cardboard is subject to temperature/humidity which will cause a degree of warping/distortion?

cheshirecat

^^ but you are coming at it that the collectors definition is correct, even though its gramatically incorrect. Mint in sealed box clearly should mean the contents of the box are mint and the box is sealed.

Of course it also depends on context - an auction starting at .99 should be considered diffrently to a buy-it-now at 700.

However it still comes across to me as extremely arrogant for a collector to assume that the seller should anticipate a collectors extreme and unusual requirements on what is a online car boot. Brinklink is different.

dougts

^ agreed, and this is the point I've been making. 100% of people buying LEGO on ebay, etc. care about the condition of the LEGO. a much smaller (probably less than 25%, likely much less) care about the condition of the packaging the LEGO is in. For this niche buyer (the collector of unopened sets), it is unrealistic and presumptuous to assume or expect that all LEGO sellers should adopt some sort of uniform standards of box description that caters to this minority of buyers, when the vast majority of buyer don't care at all - they are buying the product, not the packaging. If the collectible buyer makes this assumption, they are bound to be disappointed as often as not.

It's a much easier and attainable goal to simply ask questions and be sure about your purchase if you care about the box, then it is to expect thousands of various sellers all across the globe to adopt some uniform standard of collectible grading for a product that most of them, and most of their buyers, aren't purchasing as a collectible.

prof1515

Use of the term "mint" predates eBay, the internet and even the electronic (or electromechanical) computer. The term has been in use by collectors for over a century (110 years to be exact) hence it's far from presumptuous. Minority or not, there is an established use for the term which those who coined its use had specific intentions in mind and which the application outside of those parameters thus constitutes misuse.

Any seller that throws around terms is subject to the implications of such terms and has no one to blame but themselves if buyers have expectations that are not met because the item for sale does not meet those expectations. Sellers are best served by describing the set for sale without adding any terms which they do not understand or can not verify. The burden lies on those selling the item since they're initiating the sale and are thus in control of expectations that arise from it. If they claim they're selling Lego and it's actually Megablox, they're at fault. If they claim they're selling mint and they're simply selling sealed boxes, they're at fault. If they claim they're selling new products and they're actually selling used products, they're at fault. If they claim they're selling complete sets and they're selling incomplete sets, they're at fault.

Now, if the seller said they were selling a new set and the buyer assumed mint, the buyer is at fault since the seller made no such claim. If the seller said they were selling a complete set and the buyer expected sealed then again it is the latter who are at fault. Assuming an expectation beyond that which is stated would constitute a presumptuous conclusion on the part of the buyer.

As for what's easier, that's why terms like "mint" are coined. It's easier to say "mint" than it is to say "in pristine condition with no marks, scratches, folds, creases, wear or tear of any kind". If mint is used without definition, it ceases to have any purpose. If it ceases to have any purpose, why use it in the first place? However, if it has a definite meaning then it has a purpose: to delineate a specific condition of the object in question.

dougts

you aren't wrong about the term "mint" prof, and I've certainly never tried to argue otherwise. But the proverbial train has left the station, and word is widely misused. Can't really undo that - like it or not, mint IS being used without specific definition. Personally, I read it as a marketing term only, and don't attached any specific expectations to it.

The seller may certainly be "wrong" in the cases you describe, but it's still in my best interests as a buyer to ask questions and be certain about what I'm buying, rather than assume the seller is right, and upon delivery find out he's wrong. Sure, I can claim the higher ground of being "right", but I still have a product I don't want that I either have to deal with the hassle of returning or negotiating an acceptable partial refund on. I'ts a pretty high price to pay in time, money, and stress to take a stand on principal when I could easily just adjust my buying practices up front.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's a LOT easier to ask a few questions than it is to expect the entire LEGO selling world to all adopt and use specific terminology with strict definitions.

Yellowcastle

MISB has been around for 110 years? ;o). You say tomato...

MinifigsMe

But the lego is mint. And it's in a sealed box. That's exactly what Mint in sealed box says.
Describing the condition of the box is relevant if it's badly battered of course, but for 95% (if not more) of lego buyers shelf wear is fine.

cheshirecat

@prof1515 I dont think anyone is arguing the word mint so much as the phrase misb. That can be quite reasonably and correctly understood to have no comment on the box beyond it being sealed.